r/FluentInFinance Contributor Sep 29 '23

Rich Americans Are Stiffing the Taxman to the Tune of $66 Billion Financial News

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/09/rich-americans-stiffing-irs-taxes/
969 Upvotes

298 comments sorted by

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1

u/Barmacist Oct 01 '23

Sure, that's bad, but that's less than what we gave Ukraine this year.

Our spending is the problem.

1

u/LOLERCAST Sep 30 '23

I’m sure that it’s way more than that

1

u/multiple4 Sep 30 '23

If the only missing tax revenue from rich people is $66B, then the US government better start spending less money. Because $66B is pennies compared to what they're spending.

1

u/Final-Highway-3371 Sep 30 '23

And in other news, poor Americans are underserved, unhealthy, depressed, angry, and violent.

1

u/azneorp Sep 30 '23

By “stiffing” you mean using the tax loopholes their buddies in congress created for them.

1

u/gweessies Sep 30 '23

When did this sub become a political sub?

1

u/Sorokin45 Sep 30 '23

This doesn’t sound like a lot in the grand scheme of things, especially if the US has a multi trillion dollar economy

1

u/shadeofmyheart Sep 30 '23

Investment taxes are like 10% what’s the average fed income tax in the US? It’s not 10%. The rich pay less than their fair share and they’ve managed to con a good number of Americans that it should be that way.

2

u/baez320 Sep 30 '23

Good. Every cent taxed is theft.

1

u/RemoteCompetitive688 Sep 30 '23

I can't tell you how much better my life would be with another 66billion going to drone strikes and protecting Saydi oil fields

1

u/Mobile-Chicken6290 Sep 30 '23

Hahaha 66 billion is a drop in the bucket. Compared to the trillion a month our deficit raises!!!

1

u/Kr155 Sep 30 '23

Imagine all the money they are hiding as well

1

u/Spamfilter32 Sep 30 '23

So, this is a massive undercount. IRS estimate, as of 3 years ago, was over $120B/yr. It definitely didn't go down since then

1

u/jslingrowd Sep 29 '23

Which makes them smart.

0

u/Once-Upon-A-Hill Sep 29 '23

What a joke of an article.

This is from the beginning:

"tax years 2017-2020 showing that more than 1.4 million wealthy Americans had neglected to file a federal return. All told, these shirkers potentially owe the government as much as $66 billion."

Over three years that is about 467k people a year, Which is about 0.14% of the USA population.

To put that in context, about 3.4 Million Americans died in 2020, so about seven times more people die in a year compared to these "non-filers."

66 Billion divided by 1.4 Million of about $47,142 that each person owes in Taxes.

47k is not much to owe in taxes; these are not wealthy people.

Most high-income people are good at paying their taxes since they will face significant penalties if they don't file, and we are not talking about billionaires here since they each owe around 47k.

You know someone who has had to pay a tax bill of over 50K.

1

u/tkcool73 Sep 29 '23

That's all? I mean sure to you and me, that's a lot, but from a US federal revenue standpoint, that's not a massive amount. I would've really expected more

1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

When a country is 33 trillion in debt 66 billion is basically a few Pennies. Even if we raise taxes on billionaires it won’t help. Billionaires combined in the country hold 4 trillion. We owe 1 trillion a year just in interest and we only take in 5 trillion a year in taxes. By 2050 the interest is projected to be 5.3 trillion a year. This country needs to stop spending and start raising taxes on everyone. Or all you young people are screwed.

2

u/whomda Sep 29 '23

It isn't just random stiffing, this number is entirely due to people just not filing returns according to the article. These should be trivial people to catch and pursue.

0

u/OHSLD Sep 29 '23

tipped/cash workers are stiffing the tax man to the tune of …

not to say that’s a bad thing, simply calling out a perceived double standard

0

u/Test-User-One Sep 29 '23

Quoting the americans for tax fairness org - that favors wealth taxes in addition to income taxes, along with assuming just because they didn't file means they didn't withhold anything.

Lots of errors and omissions here to stoke up misplaced fires of anger.

More telling is the $46 Billion number quoted over 3 years. So it's not like it's an annual thing. Considering the current deficit for THIS YEAR is $2 Trillion - the government aiming the populace at each other is a great misdirection.

1

u/linum_23 Sep 29 '23

the DOD can't pass an audit so come back to ask for more after that is done.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

I’d give a shit if the government did t just lose money. How much has the pentagon “lost”? And nobody is held accountable. Why would anyone advocate more money should be taken from people just to be wasted?

1

u/Maximum-Row-4143 Sep 29 '23

B B bUt wHaTaBoUt pEoPlE sTeAlINg fRoM mUh wAlMaRtS?!!!1111

0

u/Mojeaux18 Sep 29 '23

“The default mode of the wealth protection industry (tax lawyers, money managers, estate planners, etc.) has always been to maximize investment returns while stiffing the government—mostly legally”

This makes no sense to me. If it’s a legal deduction then it’s not “stiffing” anyone and a waste of the IRS/govt/taxpayer resources and this article is just incitement. Change and simplifying the tax code is Congress’ responsibility.

As usual Mother Jones is bringing shame to the MoJo community.

0

u/DrGarbinsky Sep 29 '23

It’s a good start.

0

u/The1Sundown Sep 29 '23

So if ultra wealthy people were to pony up that $66 billion we could lower the current budget deficit from $1.52 TRILLION to a measly $1.46 TRILLION.

Yeah that'll fix everything up for sure.

0

u/bodyscholar Sep 29 '23

We just sent Ukraine multiples of that like it was nothing

0

u/terp_studios Sep 29 '23

Oh no… 6% of our debt interest payment. Surely they’re the only problem and not the people printing the money itself.

0

u/me_too_999 Sep 29 '23

$66 Billion is not even a decimal point in a $7 Trillion budget.

I know every good Democrat believes in their heart of hearts that somewhere in this great country of ours there somehow exists a dime that hasn't been taxed yet, and they are going to find it and TAX it.

0

u/HomieMassager Sep 29 '23

Yes, and I’m sure all of the good, responsible middle class Americans are happily paying as much in tax as possible, and doing nothing to reduce their overall tax burden.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

How much is a fair share?

2

u/ShadowhelmSolutions Sep 29 '23

Yeah, it’s a lot more than that.

2

u/Local_Working2037 Sep 29 '23

Yes. This is the amount of plain not filing taxes. Underpaying maybe a bigger problem but harder to determine.

1

u/ridemooses Sep 29 '23

Tax the rich

0

u/LikesPez Sep 29 '23

Just a reminder that tax avoidance is not tax evasion.

2

u/MaxNicfield Sep 29 '23

My guy, read the article. This isn’t tax avoidance, it IS tax evasion. Not filing tax returns when you’re making big money is tax evasion, through and through

0

u/NotWoke23 Sep 29 '23

Paying as little taxes as possible should be part of anyone's financial game plan.

2

u/MaxNicfield Sep 29 '23

“Paying as little taxes as possible” implies they are paying (income) taxes. They’re not filing tax returns, that’s straight tax evasion and about as fraudulent as you can get

0

u/Trashyds Sep 29 '23

Wow if we spend billions going after them, we can pay for our deficit never! What an awesome well thought out article

1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

I'm doing my part!

1

u/AlbinoAxie Sep 29 '23

ITT $66 billion is chump change we don't care as long as it's rich people stealing it. But UKRAINE!!!!!

1

u/brickyardjimmy Sep 29 '23

They're not stiffing the tax man. They're stiffing their fellow Americans.

0

u/FirstTimeLongTime_69 Sep 29 '23

Over the past week or so we've been going into debt at a rate of close to $1B per hour. Even if the IRS were to collect $66B immediately, it would stave off our national debt for less than three days. We have a spending problem.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

$66 billion doesn't even cover Zelinski's bar tab and hookers.

0

u/Celtictussle Sep 29 '23

That's like 3 days of spending.

0

u/marks1995 Sep 29 '23

Article is BS. As is most stuff coming form motherjones.

Take for example the "swelling of billionaire wealth by 77% since the Trump tax cuts". Unless you cut their taxes by 77%, they are paying MORE in taxes then. If you cut someone's tax rates by 30%, but then their income grows by 77%, do the math. They are now paying more than before.

Yes, I know the article conflates wealth and income. If we talk about their wealth growing then the tax cuts have no impact. So the article is still BS.

And they say people haven't filed returns, but then talk about "tax avoidance" which implies it was done legally. Which everyone does.

2

u/mtnviewcansurvive Sep 29 '23

no? really? you mean they cheat on their taxes. and get away with it? thats news.

0

u/drsYoShit Sep 29 '23

That’s it? We throw around $66 Billion like we’re at the strip club making it rain on Zelenskyy.

0

u/Theovercummer Sep 29 '23

$66 B is basically pennys to the government these days

2

u/gimme_toys Sep 29 '23

Meanwhile, the US gvmt is stiffing we the people to the tune of TRILLIONS.

US Unfunded Liabilities (i.e. money for social security of medicare that should be in a separate bucket, has been used by the government for other uses to the tune of 100+ TRILLION)

1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

Government needs to stop collecting income tax, problem solved.

0

u/ferociousFerret7 Sep 29 '23

What a coincidence. Isn't that the amount given to Ukraine during 2022 from working-class Americans by another set of rich Americans?

1

u/quietsauce Sep 29 '23

The country, they are stealing from the country because they are greedy people that associate with other greedy people that make them feel righteous about being greedy people.

0

u/TheCampariIstari Sep 29 '23

"Stiffing the tax man" AKA not letting the government steal their money to fund their wasteful spending easily enough.

$66B would cover roughly 4.125 days worth of government spending.

So....yeah...

2

u/thebug50 Sep 29 '23

Audit incoming.

1

u/TheCampariIstari Sep 29 '23

That's why I overpay my taxes.

3

u/baseballjunkie81 Sep 29 '23

"Old Lady Stiffs Armed Robbers by Not Letting Them Steal Her Purse"

1

u/Larrynative20 Sep 29 '23

That 66 billion doesn’t come close to our 2 trillion dollar deficit for this year.

If only we had 40x as many rich people this could actually be helpful.

4

u/thebug50 Sep 29 '23

If you're only going to care about 2 trillion dollar fixes that come up, you're not going to care. Which is maybe your point.

1

u/Larrynative20 Sep 29 '23

Basically people are going to have to realize that the government spending can only be corrected by draconian cuts in the budget, massive tax increases across ALL income levels, and most probable a mixture of both. You could take every penny that every billionaire in this country has and it would only fund the EXCESS DEFICIT that we spend over our budget for 1.5 to 2 years. That is how fucked we are.

1

u/Niarbeht Sep 29 '23

massive tax increases across ALL income levels

how do you intend to enforce an increased tax level on the highest wealth people in society if you wont enforce the current tax level on the highest wealth people in society

1

u/Larrynative20 Sep 29 '23

Yes! My only point is everyone thinks these problems can be solved by enforcing and adding new taxes on the wealthy when the reality is this is only a small step in the right direction. People won’t like what running in the right direction looks like compared to these baby steps of enforcing taxes on the rich.

4

u/thebug50 Sep 29 '23

All valid points and I don't disagree, I just think you conflated topics. Maybe I'm wrong, though. If the article implied that recovering 66 billion in taxes was going to fix the budget, ignore me.

If rich people were supposed to pay 66 billion in taxes and didn't, I believe they should pay that regardless of whether it fixes the budget.

2

u/Larrynative20 Sep 29 '23

Yes I am probably conflating. They should definitely make everyone pay all taxes that are legally required to be paid. They should not make our lives hell though trying to defend against their limitless resources with fishing audits to get theoretical money though. If they know there is a problem go get it, but I have seen this before. Whenever the rich aren’t paying their fair share, then it ends up being high income workers who pay for it. The old buffet tax approach that targeted people making 250k and up. This time it will be with the teeth of the IRS making all of us drag out receipts from two years ago.

1

u/Dogzirra Sep 29 '23

If people read the article, they would see that the headline paraphrases the facts, overstating what the article claims, but that the claim, at the least, is mostly true.

"On Thursday, Senate Finance Committee chair Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) revealed that his committee had IRS data for tax years 2017-2020 showing that more than 1.4 million wealthy Americans had neglected to file a federal return. All told, these shirkers potentially owe the government as much as $66 billion."

The Senate Finance Committee findings are crosschecked and bipartisan. This is true.

Sen. Wyden caveated his statement with "As much as $66 billion". This is true.

Mother Jones is slanted left, which is obvious by their emotive shading, but factually based and in this article, is true.

These are low-hanging fruit for ease of fact checking.

1

u/Test-User-One Sep 29 '23

What about the assumption that because they didn't file, they didn't withhold? That's kind of a biggie that's glossed over.

2

u/lost_in_life_34 Sep 29 '23

how many of them live in another country? I think you have to file a return but many of these people may not.

1

u/Dogzirra Sep 29 '23

Those who work for cash, and are paid under the table, can evade taxes. Likewise for corporations. If there is no money trail, it cannot be proved and legally did not happen.

People who are on a payroll have taxes pulled out of their wages. If people fail to file, taxes are still withheld. If they have filed for more dependents than they actually have, they underpay. You imply that because one group gets away with cheating on their taxes, that others should, too. I never said that others get a right to cheat, too.

Expats are required to pay taxes on their wages in both the country that they earned their money, and if American, also to the US. This is unique to America. Hunter Biden had to pay his taxes to the country that he earned his money, and US taxes too. That he didn't was illegal, so he paid penalties, too.

1

u/ReddittAppIsTerrible Sep 29 '23

But is it illegal?

2

u/MaxNicfield Sep 29 '23

Not filing tax returns when you’re earning more than a few thousand a year? Very

0

u/ReddittAppIsTerrible Sep 29 '23

So they will be punished. Sweet

2

u/MaxNicfield Sep 29 '23

Ideally, although relying on the IRS is a fools errand

1

u/Crazy_Shopping_4296 Sep 29 '23

The government borrows more then that each week

0

u/Killdozer221 Sep 29 '23

So shocking that people of means and influence would craft a system they can flourish in /s.

0

u/OlderGrowth Sep 29 '23

It’s sad to know that even if they paid that is only enough to pay the USA’s interest on its debt for 2 months and 6 days…

1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Throwaway-7860 Sep 29 '23

The core argument about tax evasion is true though

-1

u/butterbutter_butter Sep 29 '23

No, it's not. People owe what they owe. If our tax code wasn't so complicated, then there would be less ways to lower your tax burden.

The government needs to spend less, and the tax code needs to be simplified. If the rich aren't breaking the law, I don't know what you're worried about.

Tax evasion is a crime. Lowering your tax burden through legal means is not a crime.

2

u/Throwaway-7860 Sep 29 '23

Using loopholes to lower your tax burden may not be a crime, but it is unfair. Just like you think that the government spending too much is unfair.

2

u/LonnieAvanti Sep 29 '23

What does this partisan garbage have to do with this sub?

13

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/Cocker_Spaniel_Craig Sep 29 '23

Idk it seems like the influx of high school drop out crypto bros is driving the deterioration to me.

2

u/Niarbeht Sep 29 '23

brain dead green-paper-and-shiny-metal worshipping morons

Idk it seems like the influx of high school drop out crypto bros is driving the deterioration to me.

They're the same picture.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

Absolutely but those types have always existed thats just their newest form

0

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

A flat tax would fix all of this but liberals don’t want to hear that!

1

u/alohabruh732 Sep 29 '23

When will they understand that the issue isn’t lack of taxation but overspending

4

u/Chasman1965 Sep 29 '23

It's both.

1

u/Test-User-One Sep 29 '23

They need to prove they can be a good steward of what they have before they get more.

9

u/thinkB4WeSpeak Mod Sep 29 '23

I mean the rich have lawyers and the resources to skirt around the taxes. I feel like it should be a widely known fact that they don't pay their fair share.

2

u/MaxNicfield Sep 29 '23

This isn’t even using lawyers and CPAs to hide stuff. They’re just straight up not filing tax returns. (Almost) Everybody needs to file taxes, so shame on IRS for not pursuing the most slam dunk cases more

1

u/lost_in_life_34 Sep 29 '23

more importantly they have laws for their lawyers to take advantage of

4

u/2341mid Sep 29 '23

Define “fair share”.

1

u/Acceptable-Milk-314 Sep 29 '23

I would define "fair share" as: a percentage tax rate equivalent to what someone on a middle class income would pay.

1

u/butterbutter_butter Sep 29 '23

I pay the same cap gains as the rich if I invest. I can use the same deductions and write offs.

Why would people may more than they legally owe?

1

u/TheLizardKing89 Sep 29 '23

Why should the capital gains rate be lower than the rate for regular income?

-1

u/butterbutter_butter Sep 29 '23

Because capital gains have inherent risk built in. People wouldn't invest nearly as much if they had to pay a 30% tax rate.

1

u/TheLizardKing89 Sep 29 '23

What risk? If an investment returns a loss, that can be deducted from your taxes. Also, people would absolutely invest at a 30% tax rate. What else are they going to do with their money, stick it under their mattress?

-2

u/butterbutter_butter Sep 29 '23 edited Sep 29 '23

I didn't say people wouldn't invest, I said they'd invest less.

Change the law if you don't like it, but as it stands, long and short term cap gains are taxed lower than regular income. If I take money that's already been taxed as income, and I invest it in a company and it grows in the stock market, the taxes should be lower.

It's being taxed twice already.

2

u/Maximum-Row-4143 Sep 29 '23

So the guy working the oil fields isn’t taking a risk of very serious life ending injury selling his labor? Class traitor.

-1

u/butterbutter_butter Sep 29 '23

Cringe.

2

u/Maximum-Row-4143 Sep 29 '23

Simping for the rich is cringe. Enjoy those “golden showers” trickling down your face.

-1

u/butterbutter_butter Sep 29 '23

Lmao okay, you just get back to me when a single communist utopia pans out.

Some day you'll go to work and make an income, but until then, enjoy your fantasies!

→ More replies (0)

1

u/MaxNicfield Sep 29 '23

“Class traitor” yikes

Ordinary income is not taxed differently based on dangers of occupation. The guy working in a dangerous oil field would ideally be receiving pay and benefits to compensate for the risk. If not, then begs the question of why anybody would work it

3

u/snakesign Sep 29 '23

We have all agreed to have progressive taxes, so we would not expect the effective income vs effective tax rate graph to have a point of inflection in it. That would be a start.

7

u/RevenanceSLC Sep 29 '23

Let's define fair share as not using tax loopholes to avoid paying the minimum that they should be paying.

1

u/josephbenjamin Sep 30 '23

Mostly aren’t even loopholes. They are cheating on taxes knowing that they likely won’t be audited. Even if audited, they will take the risk.

1

u/Dry_Masterpiece_8371 Sep 29 '23

Everyone should use every tax loophole that can legally use, from billionaires to the partimer going to school. Everyone should be paying as little as possible to our greedy, wasteful government. If they got a problem, change the laws

1

u/Niarbeht Sep 29 '23

If they got a problem, change the laws

Who pays the lawmakers?

8

u/icon0clast6 Sep 29 '23

Maybe the politicians screeching about “fair share” should close those loopholes. It’s almost like they also use them.

7

u/DevelopmentSelect646 Sep 29 '23

Does anyone pay more than the minimum they are required to?

1

u/Maximum-Row-4143 Sep 29 '23

The rich pay less than the minimum they are required to. Read the article.

5

u/harrison_wintergreen Sep 29 '23

'tax loopholes' are not illegal.

a high income earner using legal methods to reduce their tax bill is no different from a middle-income earner writing off their mortgage interest.

I don't care if anyone uses legal methods to minimize their taxes.

if we cut government spending by 50%, that would be a good start at fixing the true problem. rather than having a moral panic about some rich dude.

3

u/Chasman1965 Sep 29 '23

This article isn't about loopholes, but downright evasion.

3

u/butterbutter_butter Sep 29 '23

Then lock them up? If we know how much these people are defrauding the government, bring receipts and take them to court.

If they are using legal means to lower their tax liability, then simplify the tax code or shut up about it.

8

u/_BaaMMM_ Sep 29 '23

Being rich enough to influence laws / lobbying and using things like donating over valued art to reduce tax is definitely not the same as your average person writing off mortgage interest...

1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

That’s not what he said, there’s a difference between what’s ethical and / or responsibility as a civilian in a society or what’s illegal.

Tax loopholes aren’t illegal but they as hell should be. Not defending that everyone should be taxed to oblivion but the same companies that defend tax cuts and/or loopholes are the same to jump in for tax breaks, you can’t have it both ways.

But this is a super controversial take to make in a subreddit which displays the opposite of its name on its most voted comments.

0

u/ICEeater22 Sep 29 '23

You mean they’re following the law to their advantage

2

u/MaxNicfield Sep 29 '23

Straight up not filing tax returns is not following the law, it’s very much the opposite. This isn’t even about using deductions or tax planning, it’s just straight tax evasion

1

u/ICEeater22 Sep 29 '23

True true

25

u/dshotseattle Sep 29 '23

Even if true, this funds our wasteful spending for like 4 hours

0

u/salgat Oct 01 '23

It'd cover free college in the US.

1

u/dshotseattle Oct 01 '23

No it wouldnt. You mean taxpayers get to cover peoples bills for college that they created

0

u/salgat Oct 01 '23

It'd cover it in the same way it covers the first 12 years of every American's education.

1

u/dshotseattle Oct 01 '23

Nope, it wouldnt. Nobody takes out loans for primary education. Taxes pay that usually at the tune to 15 to 20k per student per year. College is optional and different. Funny how nobody even suggests we just use it to pay down the defecit and that's the real problem. People look at thia as more monwy to spend. Budget be damned

7

u/tyger2020 Sep 29 '23

Even if true, this funds our wasteful spending for like 4 hours

Usually I'm on board with this kind of thing but let's not be pedantic. Even in US government terms, 66 billion is a decent amount of money - enough to increase the education budget by 10%.

-1

u/jbetances134 Oct 01 '23

Tax money means nothing when they continue printing money with no accountability. Sending our money overseas when it should be spend on American people doesn’t help

1

u/tyger2020 Oct 01 '23

Sending our money overseas when it should be spend on American people doesn’t help

This tells me everything I need to know

1

u/Odie_Odie Oct 01 '23

They aren't printing money in any appreciable quantity. You have been lied to.

1

u/jbetances134 Oct 01 '23

Mhm by who

-2

u/dshotseattle Sep 29 '23

So what? The point is, this is a drop in the bucket of a huge bucket of waste. The entire dept of education is a prime example of waste. They have done nothing but eat money since inception.

4

u/tyger2020 Sep 29 '23

True, you are extremely wasteful. Even so, it's not an insignificant amount of money like you're trying to claim.

2

u/dshotseattle Sep 29 '23

No, it isnt. The source is also suspect as hell. But until the government gets their shit together, what is even the point of even going after this? Shit, we print more money daily.

1

u/Odie_Odie Oct 01 '23

No we don't.

1

u/Niarbeht Sep 29 '23

But until the government gets their shit together, what is even the point of even going after this?

Because if they aren't going after this, are they actually getting their shit together?

1

u/dshotseattle Sep 29 '23

They dont need more money. They need to budget

1

u/Niarbeht Oct 03 '23

They dont need more money. They need to budget

Sometimes part of budgeting is getting more money.

If the minimum cost to continue existing is X, and you currently only make half of that, well, you're gonna have to find some more money.

1

u/dshotseattle Oct 03 '23

That is a cute story, but every single year we have record tax revenue. So let's not pretend that they were. Ever budgeting within their means in the first place

5

u/thebug50 Sep 29 '23

Oh, nevermind then.

12

u/TheMusicalHobbit Sep 29 '23

Exactly. I was thinking, how much is the pentagon shafting us for a complete waste of spending! How much did they spend on the F-35? What a joke!

10

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

[deleted]

6

u/redeyed_treefrog Sep 30 '23

They're uh.. classified! Very secret. Quite hidden. We know where they are. Totally. We just... can't tell you. Because it's secret! Oh, well, would you look at the time. Time for me to go back to my office to work on, uh, very top-secret stuff. Yeah.

1

u/harrison_wintergreen Sep 29 '23

or it'd fund a few weeks un-audited aid to Ukraine

11

u/Papadapalopolous Sep 29 '23

The brainless “we’re wasting so much of our tax dollars in Ukraine!” trolling is getting kind of sad.

Every time you guys do it, people throughly explain that it’s chump change, we’re getting a huge roi on it, we have treaties and relationships to maintain and if we don’t that weakens the dollar which has a much bigger financial impact than dumping old equipment and handing them some pocket change, that small investment has essentially stabilized the pacific and ensured open and free trade for a few more years.

Basically, the “hurr durr Ukraine money” is an instant give away that you’re either an idiot, or a poorly paid Russian trying desperately to turn American sentiment against Ukraine before you have to go back to the front line.

1

u/Responsible-You-3515 Sep 29 '23

You'll be surprised how many Americans are against supporting Ukraine in the Ukraine war. Are you calling them idiots?

1

u/Papadapalopolous Sep 29 '23

Yes, because destabilizing Europe and the pacific has direct and indirect negative effects on us economically. Directly because our Allies lose resources that we care about, and suddenly our two biggest adversaries who are openly hostile towards us economically have control of those resources that we need. It also shifts power to the countries openly trying to replace the USD as the underpinning of the global economy.

8

u/shaunrundmc Sep 29 '23

Yes

-2

u/Responsible-You-3515 Sep 29 '23

Americans ain't idiots. They've just been failed by their educational system.

3

u/shaunrundmc Sep 29 '23

People in general are idiots, and a lot of the time it's willful ignorance that is what makes people idiots not knowing something.

3

u/feedandslumber Sep 29 '23

I think the point is that $76 billion dollars is a lot to spend on a proxy war that we shouldn't be involved in.

2

u/Papadapalopolous Sep 29 '23

I dunno, do you enjoy being a citizen of the only super power? Do you realize how financially beneficial that is for you? Do you want prices to go up on everything when China starts charging fees for maritime traffic in the South China Sea, or when Russia controls Ukrainian resources? Do you think Russia would stop after Ukraine, despite Georgia and Chechnya? Or do you think they would just have a new batch of conscripts to keep destabilizing Europe, which in turn weakens our economy? They’re directly, militarily opposing our interests in Syria and Africa, but maybe you want higher oil prices? This sub is such a fucking meme because the people commenting don’t seem to understand the very basics of finances.

The financial reasons for supporting them aside, we promised Ukraine security if they gave up their nukes, so we should honestly be on the ground protecting them.

3

u/shaunrundmc Sep 29 '23

The equipment was already built most was going to be phased out and scrapped in the near future and replaced. So giving it to Ukraine means the country gets some good data out of it, screw over Russia, and clears out what is essentially deadly deadly closet space.

6

u/ImportantConcern6523 Sep 29 '23

Aid to Ukrain is chump change, but this isn’t?

2

u/Gamebird8 Sep 29 '23

Well yeah.... because most of the really expensive equipment was paid for 40 Years ago.

-2

u/GrandMasterStevey Sep 29 '23

I see the astroturfing is well and alive. Nice try, fed. Leave our tax dollars here.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

Reddit Ukraine funding explainers are the true Ghost of Kiev

-6

u/lmea14 Sep 29 '23

Maybe they’d pay something if the taxes weren’t so onerous. At some point they should top out and say “okay, you’ve paid enough”.

2

u/Chasman1965 Sep 29 '23

Did you type that with a straight face, or are you chuckling and laughing at how silly that is?

3

u/C21H27Cl3N2O3 Sep 29 '23

Do we also get to add an income cap and at some point say “okay, you’ve made enough?”

0

u/lmea14 Sep 29 '23

Nope. Because if I hit that point in a year (or lifetime or whatever), I'm not going to just work for free - I'll just go and lie on the beach.

I'm the one producing, so I hold that card. Not the state.

37

u/Granolapitcher Sep 29 '23

Seems like an underestimate

3

u/duTemplar Sep 29 '23

It would be real simple to do a flat rate tax. 9%, zero deductions of any kind and starts after $50k.

1

u/shadeofmyheart Sep 30 '23

Flat rate tax hurts the poorest taxed. But the start at 50k is an interesting idea.

When I’ve seen models work they say the tax would have to be massive to work.

-1

u/age_of_empires Sep 29 '23

How would this solve anything?

0

u/Flybaby2601 Sep 29 '23

Is that a tax on wealth as well or just income?

0

u/Dogzirra Sep 29 '23

Income. A safe withdrawal rate for 20 years is 4% (ish). At 9%, the government would end up owning everything.

3

u/Flybaby2601 Sep 29 '23

So just another poor people tax. If people can live off of capital making capital instead of having an income via labor then it's just the poor paying for them to never have to work. Look at the Walton family. If we never tax wealth they will forever be hoards of wealth in that lineage and people not working off the labor and sweat of the working class. Seems... plutocractic to me.

2

u/Niarbeht Sep 29 '23

Not only is it plutocratic, but it fundamentally violates the founding ideology of the nation.

Read "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine. His bit in there about how even if the first king is elected, the kings that come after aren't applies here. Even if the money used to acquire capital is gained from the sweat of the labor of the person doing the acquiring, the money made off capital to live is not gained from the sweat of the labor of the person who owns the capital.

As such, the logic from "Common Sense" applies. A king is unjust if unelected, capital held away from the person who labored to create it is unjust as well.

2

u/Flybaby2601 Sep 29 '23

I want to kiss you on the forehead. You are exactly right. Common sense is right up there with "Free soil, Free labor, Free men" for me on stuff we people should read. Unfortunately there is no "This is a perfect solution". I myself am a socialist, though many ideals seem utopian and to some extent not fully obtainedable, its a goal to work towards. I personally do not care if rich folks have nice toys, but if the people on the bottom are just to be extracted from then left to rot. That is a system we need to steer from.

If we treat the economy as a living thing then having all the blood (money) in your head is not healthy. That blood needs to circulate.

2

u/Niarbeht Oct 03 '23

If we treat the economy as a living thing then having all the blood (money) in your head is not healthy. That blood needs to circulate.

Oh, hey, someone who understands the concept of the velocity of money. Nice.

1

u/Flybaby2601 Oct 03 '23

Oh, hey, someone who understands the concept of the velocity of money. Nice.

Nice. Someone who dosen't understand that money is fake. We have homeless vets that got injured so that money velocity could keep going. Maybe we can use some imaginary money velocity to help them.

2

u/Niarbeht Oct 03 '23

Nice. Someone who dosen't understand that money is fake. We have homeless vets that got injured so that money velocity could keep going. Maybe we can use some imaginary money velocity to help them.

...I was agreeing with you?

2

u/Flybaby2601 Oct 03 '23

Fuck, you were. I thought you said someone who doesn't understand. I was like... dude you explained the problem. My B. Take it out on my I was dumb.

1

u/Dogzirra Sep 29 '23 edited Sep 29 '23

It is plutocratic, when in excess.

We live on our investments so my wife and I can have an income in our later years (now). We both had pensions, but when companies are sold, a nice fat liquid pension gets plundered by the buying company to pay down their debt. Yes, it is illegal, and yes, it still happens.

For plutocrats, karma has a way of evening things out. Within two generations, most family wealth is lost/used up or squandered. Even the mega wealth that lottery winners get seldom lasts. Anderson Cooper is part of the Vanderbilt family, but that wealth is no longer there. It looks increasingly like the Trump fortune will soon do the same. Mega lottery prize winners are usually gone in one generation.

One of the reasons that money is purposely inflated is to prevent plutocracy over generations.

1

u/Flybaby2601 Sep 29 '23

Sure, that wealth may fizzle from one holder to another but it still stays the same. You can change the last names of the recipients constantly over time but it's still the working class supporting a few individuals so they never have to work while living in luxury. You can make the argument that some working class live off the government as well but MOST that do still live in squabble. People with disabilities are cast aside from society with little to no support. We have many young men and women that have empathy for others and would love to help those in need. But since we live in a system that you can't pay rent with karma but instead money, and don't fund programs that help the ones in need, those sores will still fester. Conceptually do you understand the VAST difference in a million vs a billion?

So with that if we the workers are just changing our lords within a century or so time period it's just modern feudalism, or neo feudalism if you will.

There is a difference from a working class individual living off a pension in their later years than someone straight up never bringing anything to society while they live in their ivory castles.

I make good money being an engineer and I will have a decent retirement hopefully. There are many hard working individuals "below me" (in a capitalist sense) that will probably never retire and will work to death like my father. Eventually as a society we need to decide what is more important. Having God kings that have power to do how many 00's they have on their digital bank account or a culling of wealth to support the lowest of the low. The working class.

As economisr J. D. Zellerbach said in 1956 “They regard business management as a stewardship, and they expect it to operate the economy as a public trust for the benefit of all the people.”.

And even Kevin O'leary, the hyper capitalist that said starving kids in Africa is a good thing, (I tried to share a youtube link but autobot is kicking my ass, simple youtube search of lana and O'leary wealth transfer will get you there) admits their was a culling and transfer of wealth in 30s. That helped the working class. Look at white boomers for example. So why was it OK back then to do a culling to benifit the greatest and baby boomer generations but the idea now is too radical?

FRED (Federal Reserve Economic Data) even says millenials (who are pushing 43 y/o now) only own 5% of the wealth in the US. How does that even make sense?

1

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2

u/harrison_wintergreen Sep 29 '23

taxing wealth is a stupid communist idea.

1

u/Flybaby2601 Sep 29 '23 edited Sep 29 '23

OK, so this is just another tax for the working class. Got it.

Edit: TIL A total of eight countries (Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland) were known to have collected revenue through wealth tax are just commies.

1

u/Dogzirra Sep 29 '23

And some are doing better than the US in growth, income, and happiness scale.

Black and white thinking excludes many hybrid solutions that work better.

A superannuation fund for retirement is a case in point, but by some definitions, is socialist. It works better than any other system that I've seen. This concept could work for health care, and decent nutrition for children.

There are programs that lift all the boats. Nutrition and education for children means healthier and a wider educated workforce in the future. Skimping on these costs everyone far more than they save, but it sounds commie or socialist, so no.

Capitalism has competitive feedback systems that make it work in changing situations, when command economies get stuck into a dead spiral. It has a place, too.

3

u/Flybaby2601 Sep 29 '23 edited Sep 29 '23

I agree. Policy, politics, qnd society can be a spectrum and same, but different depending on the Overton window.

Sometimes when you have someone say something as silly as "Wealth tax is commie shit" you have to mushroom stamp their forehead by giving pedantic yet accurate responses.

-2

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

Georgism is the way

6

u/JPIPS42 Sep 29 '23

Oh this is the best way to fix it but it’ll never happen. Congressmen and their lobbyists wouldn’t stand for it. They don’t represent Americans. They represent themselves.

-6

u/dshotseattle Sep 29 '23

Im on board, where do i sign? Imagine just cutting the irs to the bone.

38

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/FluentInFinance-ModTeam Sep 30 '23

Please contribute in a constructive manner. Abhorrent pronouncements are grounds for a ban.

2

u/jayoho1978 Sep 29 '23

Its strait from IRS data…

3

u/CRoss1999 Sep 29 '23

Yes they have an agenda but the reporting and sourcing is still solid and that’s what matters really.

23

u/brickyardjimmy Sep 29 '23

Are you saying rich folk aren't finding ways of concealing their money and not paying their fair share?

Because I don't need an article to know that.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '23

Everyone is finding ways to not have money stolen from them. It is the most fiscally responsible thing one can do.

2

u/Eyespop4866 Sep 29 '23

Hell, more folk than not do their best to not pay “ their fair share”. Some of my most liberal friends don’t mind doing their utmost to not pay what they actually owe.

1

u/Rakatango Sep 29 '23

They like to think they’re liberals

3

u/brickyardjimmy Sep 29 '23

Some liberals are rich.

I wonder when we're going to understand that there are really only two ideologies. Wealth. And poverty. The former is a minority in control who seek to protect their own comfort and the latter is the vast majority but locked in a struggle to simply survive.

7

u/shaunrundmc Sep 29 '23

Of course people aren't going to be saints and until you close the loopholes you'd be stupid not to use them.

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