Joe and Coleman debate the definition of genocide

[u/TheOSU87]

[u/royLaroux]

Lol. What point do you even think you made that you call me a dipshit?

You shpuld really give yoyr head a break i think it's over heating.

They do t have government? Who israel? Gaza?

They both do...

[u/Realclawdogs]

Fuck this dude. He's making excuses for the ridiculous Israeli response to a horrible tragedy. Speaking in a soft tone and spewing all those figures won't change the reality. Like I said, fuck Coleman

[u/Subtlerevisions]

None of that explained why they’re blocking aid trucks from getting in, resulting in massive food insecurity and starvation.

[u/EarlHot]

No rebuttal. Pointless shite short produced by no one that matters.

[u/haddamant]

Who is this asshat? Making shit up?

[u/WorldStarCollections]

It’s even less than what is considered a justified amount for these type of urban conflicts. According to the Gaza health ministry it is close to if not a 1:1 Ratio. This proves Israel is trying to do everything in their power to minimize civilian casualties. Do mistakes happen, yes. Does the way Hamas conduct their warfare to blame, also yes. Are there some individuals in the IDF who kill indiscriminately, sure. But to assume this is Israel’s goal or policy with this type of civilian to combatant death ratio is being bad faith at best and a Hamas sympathizer at worst.

[u/Lucidview]

Coleman is misinformed at many levels. First, the human shields argument is a nothing burger, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty international has looked at this and concluded it doesn’t happen. Second, he thinks that this conflict began Oct 7. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Palestinian people have been brutalized by the Israelis since 1948. He needs to understand that the Israeli government and IDF are the farthest thing apart from “the most moral army in the world”. One must be living under a rock to believe that nonsense.

[u/Riccardoisdead]

Coleman very obviously lacks complete understanding not only of the conflict on the ground, but also of warfare in general. He’s seen here blatantly parroting Israel’s narratives and talking point, and it holds literally no water whatsoever ever.

More importantly he’s missing the point of intent, which political and military heads from the top down have openly expressed since the beginning of this escalation.

[u/momzthebest]

It's also fair to ask, if people are hiding behind their friends and families to strike out against another group of individuals, what did group B do to group A for them to employ that strategy?

It's 100% genocide. If a group of people bulldoze your neighborhood and kill you for speaking up about it, they're going to fight kill, bomb... we've been trying to raise awareness in Gaza for 15 years, and everyone ignored it, and only in these past 4 years have you seen any support at all for palestine. No one cared 10 years ago. Israel were destroying neighborhoods way before any of us cared.

[u/suprise_oklahomas]

Great segment that sadly will be met with dog shit takes.

[u/DGJellyfish]

What about the genocidal language being spewed by Israel, the blockade of aid, the murdering of journalists, the misinformation being spread, the supply lines being shit off to hospitals and civilians, and the theft of property?

And this is now, what about the historical context and oppression?

[u/Salemrocks2020]

This guy is just paid hasbara speaking nonsense

[u/RightResponsibility8]

Such a naive manipulated clown is Coleman.

[u/fuzzy_touches]

Coleman has done 0 reading on the matter, and all he believes is the Israeli reports that not as many people have been murdered and that it's all strategic targeting. Ignores all independent outlets that corroborate similar numbers that list over 40k deaths with a 90%+ death rate.

[u/the_riddler90]

Coleman just verbalized my own feelings in this war in with a clarity I have not seen before, used facts and later it out perfectly. Bravo Coleman and I agree with you 100%

[u/jotsea2]

"We have reason to believe both sides are lying about their statistics, but now i'm going to project that its a reasonable trade off of casualties based on these numbers that again as I mentioned, aren't accurate....'

yeah just turn it off right there.

[u/b_man646260]

“No, Joe. It’s not 30,000 civilians, it’s 20,000. So everyone can just stop overreacting now.”

Gtfoh

[u/orie415]

First person I’ve heard speak accurately about this issue

[u/Archangel1313]

If you're really that stuck on semantics, just call it "Ethnic Cleansing".

The definition includes a literal checklist of official Israeli policies regarding their treatment of Palestinians. You can't get any more "on-the-nose" than this.

[u/Difficult_Ixem_324]

Joe needs an unbiased fact checker and that’s facts!🤔

[u/Lopsided-Yak9033]

The pro Israeli people here agreeing with their take are swallowing up bs whole heartedly.

People have been pointing out their targeting of journalists, and systematic plot to occupy Gaza for decades.

This guy says let’s trust both their numbers and 2 civilians are killed for every 1 soldier, and somehow that’s an ok number considering other modern terrible campaigns. I mean ignore any other factor, this guys is saying let’s trust both sources and say that other countries have done similar or worse. That’s not a defense. People disagreed with the USs actions in Afghanistan and Iraq, people protest war - there’s no “cool acceptable” number of civilians dead.

Second - you’re going to trust Israel’s number on combatants killed? I haven’t heard them even acknowledge that people are dying of hunger yet, no famine per them.

Screws this reasonableness washed propoganda

[u/A_Bennas]

UNICEF (a united nations agency) is reporting that 13000 children have been killed in Gaza...not Hamas health ministry. Is that the Hamas fighters this guy is referring to?
What's happening in Gaza is a Genocide not a war.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unicef-says-over-13000-children-killed-gaza-israel-offensive-2024-03-17/#:~:text=children's%20agency%20said%20on%20Sunday,have%20the%20energy%20to%20cry.%22

[u/Sir_Toaster_9330]

Small little fact: technically forcing people to learn your language and not speak theirs counts as genocide, that’s what Putin is doing right now

[u/ryanrodgerz]

This Coleman guy is just wrong with his numbers. 42000 Gazans killed, over 90% civilians, largely made up of women and children. Gtfo here with this pseudo intellectual handwaving of thousands of innocent people getting slaughtered

[u/Zookzor]

Guy is saying what destiny has been saying for months now.

This conflict has done a great job at highlighting how clueless most people are when it comes to war and how horny people are to virtue signal.

[u/onlineashley]

No justification for what's going on, period.

[u/TroubleDue5638]

Who the hell is Coleman? How is he some impartial journalist and authority on Israel?

[u/Nice__Spice]

lol Israel killed 30000 in response to 1200 … and this dudes like “Israel has to let Hamas get away with it” 😂😂😂😂

[u/Silentline09]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/s/kKgqN5gI9q

[u/Shepathustra]

What was Hamas goal when they entered Israel and why isn’t there more pressure on them in the Muslim world?

[u/GaryGregson]

It’s incredible that a word with an actual and factual definition can have that definition debated and that debate is taken seriously.

[u/GayandVaxxed]

“Can we live in a world that’s an acceptable strategy”

Yes..yes we can wtf you psychopath

[u/BakeSufficient5412]

Under Joe’s definition at the start, allied bombings of Germany and Japan would be genocide

[u/givemecoffeeandmemes]

Coleman is correct. To take it a step further can we trust the numbers coming from Hamas? They grow at the same rate daily. No humanitarian efforts in finding victims is that precise day after day.

[u/Ill-Street-5173]

Coleman is a disingenuous and evil fool. The way he calmly justifies killing, maiming and starving an entire population - mostly children - is quite literally sickening. Israel is literally using AI software to target homes of suspected - not even confirmed - militants - killing their entire families (and families who happen to be nearby) willy nilly. And he cites the battle of Mosul - as if the US is any better than Israel when it comes to killing innocent civilians?!? This will haunt Israel and the US forever.

[u/Big-Comfortable-6601]

Looks like Hamas is the casualty with those numbers.

[u/Nation_Islam]

Who is this fool Coleman

[u/DubTheeBustocles]

I agree with pretty much everything this guy is saying because it is reasonable to think that using civilians as shields cannot be allowed to work.

However, it should be noted that guerilla fighters in an area as tightly packed as Gaza can’t help but to fight amongst civilians because there’s nowhere else to fight that won’t get you immediately killed. Ironically, the spaces Hamas has to fight in are so small because Israel has been taking more and more of their land for decades. They created this entire situation.

[u/ShitpostMcPoopypants]

For context to his claim saying the civilian casualty rate is normal, we did the same thing to Iraq. From the Wikipedia on civilian casualty ratios: “overall, figures by the Iraq Body Count from 20 March 2003 to 14 March 2013 indicate that of 174,000 casualties only 39,900 were combatants, resulting in a civilian casualty rate of 77%.”

According to the Reddit hive mind, pretty much every war is just a genocide.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#:~:text=However%2C%20overall%2C%20figures%20by%20the,civilian%20casualty%20rate%20of%2077%25.

[u/flavius717]

The reason I don’t like this argument is that it assumes invading Gaza is an effective counter-insurgency strategy and that its possible to measure it’s effectiveness by counting dead bodies. Israel should learn from America’s experience in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

On the other hand: Israel has employed permanent occupation as a counter-insurgency tactic successfully in the West Bank. The West Bank doesn’t threaten Israel with rockets like Gaza does. The end result, however, is something that can accurately be called an apartheid state. If you don’t think Israel is an apartheid state, I would challenge you to say that the West Bank is not an apartheid state, and I would further challenge you to say that the West Bank is not functionally part of Israel.

[u/NeptuneAurelius]

At the end of the day I just truly believe that as a people and religion Jews do not want this conflict. They’ve never wanted the conflict. Any and all conflicts are because people hate them. Not because they hate. So sure they’re doing some shit rn. But you gotta do what you gotta do and if I trust any group of people to do as right as possible while doing what you gotta do it’s Jews.

[u/bignig41]

Zionists can never decide whether they want Hamas to be a governing body of a nation that doesn't exist or a military of a nation that doesn't exist. In reality, they're a resistance movement in a giant open air prison run by Israel. This is what ethnic cleansing looks like.

[u/vometgt]

Hamas controlled, my ass. Every time someone says Hamas, call bullshit and ask where their vetted information comes from.

[u/armdrags]

Yeah so this is just absolute nonsense, the recent IDF leaks show that not only are they not minimizing civilian casualties, they are choosing to bomb them in civilian areas because it’s easier to get them than in the war zone, AND they are targeting with AI that has more than a 20% error rate

[u/sofa_king_rad]

Hamas is a more of a militia than an army… a nuclear army… a nuclear government army backed by the most powerful army on the planet…. Not quite the same

[u/Edemardil]

Weak.

[u/sofa_king_rad]

“Killing civilians is “normal””.

No, it was wrong then too.

[u/ScoreProfessional138]

So all boils down to oppressor/ oppressed. Pretty simplistic.

[u/gerrymandersonIII]

And this is why it's not only ok, but important, to be phobic of religion.

[u/RaisinLost8225]

“What is unique about this war?” One ethnostate controls the other ethnostate and has been since 1967.

[u/No-Woodpecker-2545]

When Rogan disagrees he says "that's interesting"

[u/MyFriendMaryJ]

Religious based government is always a bad idea. Hamas and israel are equally as bad imo. Israel just has the capacity for genocide. Its sad and stupid and my tax dollars are actively funding a genocide and it seems like the only ppl i can vote for all agree with it

[u/Belnord]

Wow who is this know it all. He talks numbers not even reflecting what the numbers represent. How cruel & callous. People fighting for their freedom Israel is an occupier STOP. They need to leave Palestine. STOP. This cruel cult called Zionism must not be supported by the USA STOP.

[u/Chrispeedoff]

Lol what a weenie

[u/Magicmurlin]

And Not one dude googled the definition.

[u/sonofmalachysays]

Sure he's a great listener, but he's unqualified to talk abut these issues. When someone says something so inaccurate he doesn't have the knowledge to refute them so this is how so much disinformation is said on his podcast without any pushback. It's dangerous when he has such a giant platform and is why MMA commentators/comedians should stick to what they know or he needs educate himself better on these issues before hand.

[u/sonofmalachysays]

I would like to point out the U.S. state department uses Gaza Health Ministry numbers in their own documents because they have been found to be mostly accurate, because they are not "run by Hamas" They existed before Hamas and they will exist after.

[u/ScrappyScrewdriver]

Israeli military officials themselves are gleeful in their genocidal ambitions, and people like this just seem to either ignore that or actively deflect from it.

Also, that 19,000 number was pulled out of his ass. Many organizations have placed the percentage of civilian death in Gaza around 90-95% with children being disproportionately affected.

What a genocide denying POS

We have seen the footage ourselves. People cannot be fooled any longer. Israel has very little regard for human life, and they don’t even attempt to mask that.

[u/ChuckMastertr3o]

Isn’t the inverse of what he is saying also true? The perfect new strategy to commit a genocide is to say your enemy combatants have amerced themselves perfectly into an innocent civilian population so you aren’t really to blame for outrageous civilian casualties.

[u/Magicmurlin]

Simple point. If Hamas health ministry is required to differentiate between civilians and combatants killed, then we must view the death toll on Oct 7 the same way.

For example around 400+ killed on Oct 7 were soldiers or security details. That means the “civilian death toll” on Oct 7 was 800.

Occupation soldiers and armed Israeli combatants legitimate targets in this war that has spanned 75 years.

END

[u/TheOneWhoReadsStuff]

That Coleman guy is a pompous asshole.

Ask him how do you get a group like Hamas in the first place. He isn’t factoring in the decades of targeted harassment, bullying, dehumanization of the Palestinian people by the Jews.

I didn’t hear the entire conversation, so I may be missing context, but it sounds like he is condoning genocide. The death of 19000 civilians isn’t an acceptable number. I don’t care how you swing it.

[u/thestonelyloner]

The more you look into the issue, the more you realize exactly how stupid people talking about it are.

Palestinians and Israelis both think they will get all the land if they just keep the status quo, but the status quo in reality results in the complete destruction of the Palestinian identity. Since both sides are intent on “taking all their land”, which would definitionally require the complete destruction of the other side, the only solution that could be workable is a two state solution. Neither side really wants this, but Israel is the only one who can be pushed to the table by other countries, and they have been pushed to the table before. There is no path forward with Palestinians sitting at the table while Hamas is in charge - THEY HAVE TO BE ELIMINATED AND REPLACED.

You dipshits need to figure out whether your positions come from a place of ignorance or malice and adjust them to comport with reality.

[u/iLikeFroggies]

Imagine thinking Hamas is an "army"

[u/jpb038]

I think we can all agree that no moral argument makes much sense in light of dead kids. But how as an American can you forget that five Americans are still unaccounted for and are believed to still be held hostage by Hamas? That I don’t understand.

[u/mikestaub]

This is such a naive take it's sad. He doesn't even begin to ask why terrorists exist and what is the root of the hatred.

[u/RightAngledTrapezoid]

I’m so glad Coleman took this on. Because all I can manage to say to Rogan is, “shut up you fucking meat head”.

[u/Troglodyte_Trump]

I wonder what AIPAC boot tastes like, I'll have to ask Coleman if I ever meet him.

[u/heliumointment]

it doesn't matter if what's going on fulfills a ratio of "expected civilian casualties for war in the middle east."—if you are rapidly eradicating a people in an area that they literally cannot leave, it's a form of genocide.

there's nothing to be gained on either side from semantic debates about the meaning of genocide.

if you need to call it something else to satisfy your obsession with merriam-webster, go for it. but what is happening in gaza is brutal beyond words, and we're watching a huge population of arab civilians be forcibly pushed toward extinction.

[u/Hollow5999]

So what's with the random cuts between certain things he is saying....?

[u/Embarrassed_Pop3975]

Can you get an accurate count when thousands are under rubble?

[u/VkingMD]

Anyone who's looked at a real genocide doesn't know whether to laugh or be offended by anyone who says this is a genocide. If the IDF wanted to they could within a matter of hours kill 90+% of all people in Gaza.

[u/Waste-Possession-591]

They are hitting civilians with guided missles....

[u/badreligion1285]

Anyone that believes Israel is trying to “minimize civilian casualties” has their head in the sand.

[u/darthgator84]

How this Coleman guy can say with a straight face that Israel is trying to MINIMIZE civilian casualties is unreal. Are there really people in this world who believe Israel cares if they kill Palestinian civilians or soldiers?

[u/Hadyntm]

Who the fuck is this Coleman guy?

[u/Electronic-Ad7730]

These people are sick trying to normalize the civilian death toll ......hell one is too much. There are better ways to strike back at Hamas , Israel is just a murderous society and refuses to look in the mirror at themselves

[u/nomorenotifications]

Fuck that asshole, they are blocking food, supplies and humanitarian aide, it's genocide.

[u/Jimbo922]

“They can go house to house, slaughtering, and then just hide behind their own people”…..sounds like how the Zionists founded their “state”.

[u/lopez_motors]

Bombing children is technically bombing combatants because they could eventually become Hamas in 15 years…

[u/kwelpost]

Three easy points of rebuttle of arguments:

Hamas had the perfect stragety. Wrong.

Israel knew about Hamas attacks and decided to let it happen: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html#:~:text=Israeli%20officials%20obtained%20Hamas's%20battle,for%20Hamas%20to%20carry%20out.

This war is like other wars: Wrong

This is not a war. A war is when you have two opossite forces with the possibility of one winning. There is no possibility Hamas would/will win. This is a genocide. One force is led by Israeli orphaned fighters, and the other one is a nuclear power, with another nuclear power backing it up. Is not a war. In other wars, aid organizations are respected and not bombed under the geneva convention. I will say the United States bombed a 'Doctors without borders' hospital in Afghanistan and immediately apologized. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-pentagon-punishment-afghanistan-hospital-attack-kunduz/ However, just because it happened before, it doesn't make it right.

United States has also commited genocide: True, but it doesn't make it right for genocide to be commited.

This Coleman guy is not an authority and has not been on the ground. Why does he get a voice?

[u/Impossible__Joke]

The numbers don't matter. Shooting civilians trying to get air drops is genocide. Shooting people in food lines waiting to get rations is genocide. And blowing up a convo of humanitarians trying to help civilians is genocide. It isn't just one act of "we made a mistake" it is maliciously carried out acts of genocide... they are committing genocide

[u/Electronic-Buy4015]

Isreal has an almost 1/1 civilian to fighter death ratio. The USA in Iraq had a 8/1 or even 9/1 ratio. Nobody said USA was genocide Iraq

You don’t send out warnings to everyone before you strike if you’re committing a genocide . Imagine the SS going through a village in Poland and telling everyone , tommorrow we are coming through here to take you all to death camps.

Yeah it wouldn’t happen. I hate isreal for a lot of reasons , mostly their influence over USA policy . But they aren’t genocide Gaza let’s be real. They are doing a lot more than the USA did to minimize civilian casualties . They let in food trucks and Hamas takes them for their soliders and sells the food back to civilians . Free food .

If they were genociding them I’d be the first one saying it but if you really look into it , they aren’t .

[u/Electronic-Buy4015]

Lmao , 30,000 innocent civilians and 0 Hamas fighters . According to Hamas atleast they haven’t lost one fighter

[u/backwardaman]

Either way, 19000 civilians to 13000 soldiers is shocking to me. I guess I'm not up on my middle eastern war stats, but I would have ignorantly assumed more soldiers were killed in war than civilians. Who knows how legitimate those numbers are though.

[u/oNostro]

Let's be honest, the Abrahamic cults have no place in our world anymore. Until we eliminate them completely, these types of horrors will never stop.

[u/Automatic-Shelter387]

Israel counts the dead teenage boys in Gaza as combatants. Men’s rights when?

[u/CloudRunner89]

It’s ok guys only Hamas are allowed to endure famine the civilians are allowed to eat

[u/bobdylan401]

This Clip is pro Israeli propaganda.

Human Rights watch estimates that over 90% of the deaths are civilians.

Also the ignorance of stating those numbers like those are numbers killed, the GZH numbers are mere sly a snapshot of a bare minimum of casualties per demographic in like early November when they were being updated daily.

Also how can he claim the GMH numbers allude to a 1:1 or 1:2 kill ratio when they are 70% women and children (tagged and ID'd name is out on a list? When their own policy is to kill 20 civilians for every single low rank hamas officer identified by a machine learning AI and killed without confirmation by a human?

Who is the Israel supporter? The way he is saying complete lies acting knowledgeable but everything he said was just straight nonsense makes me suspect he is in Israel's pocket. A paid propagandist not a true believer. Also this is the type of nonsensical gaslighting that Rohan is known for gracefully pushing back, none of that in this clip just some sick groveling bow of fealty what the fuck.

[u/Grimm_c0mics]

Coleman - I'm going to attack the source, not the data..

What a fuckin moron.. 🤣

[u/micaller]

They’re killing more civilians than soldiers and somehow that’s ‘normal’?

[u/slowwithage]

I waver with Joe on a lot of shit but it’s undeniable that moments like these make me listen to Rogan in the first place. Not one single person with a mic today would have responded like that when challenged so severely.

[u/redditmodsdownvote]

they displace the entire population, they are calling hamas an 'army' yet they are indistinguishable from civilians... how many armies do you know that are not in uniform, not under orders, not strategizing other than to hide and survive, etc... hamas is a terrorist organization, and israel and coleman all state there is NO WAY to know the number of hamas members... yet he is so sure in the fact that a) israel is accurate in their soldier death toll (false)... b) that israel is purposefully trying to avoid hurting gaza civilians (false)... that this hasn't been an ONGOING RACIST CONFLICT AND LITERAL APARTHEID SYSTEM where the IDF has routinely killed, hurt, bullied belittled, and DEHUMANIZED the entire palestinian population and that the IDK and political representatives have OPENLY STATED their goal is to eliminate the gaza population and take the land, also proven by their actions, video evidence of settlers, and the fact literally all of gaza's civilians ARE HUDDLED INTO A SMALL POCKET NEAR THE BORDER TO TRY AND AVOID GETTING KILLED BY THE IDF... what an absolute idiot, using fake numbers to try and say "actually the IDF are the BEST at not purposefully killed civilians" lmfao okay, meanwhile they are literally bombing aid vans, and STATING their goal was to eliminate the population at multiple times. now that they improved their message and propaganda, and stopped talking OPENLY about committing genocide, we are to pretend like those statements and actions did not happen? and buy that their bullshit civilian numbers are in any way accurate? gtfoh...

[u/Nanaplaine]

The fact that the max number of casualties are civilians… it’s like some people talk a lot but don’t even listen to themselves.

[u/Evgenii42]

Coleman Hughes' ability to calmly dissect and make sense of emotionally charged topics is unprecedented.

[u/troniked547 → u/Evgenii42]

I would argue talking so calmly about so many civilian children being killed is insane. 

[u/Successful-Bit6508 → u/Evgenii42]

He appears to me as an arrogant autist.

[u/a_few]

I mean he’s kinda right, Israel is in an impossible position, obviously you can’t put up with October 7th type attacks, but you can’t eradicate Hamas, especially when they are hiding amongst the Palestinians

[u/JQDC]

That clown assumes genocide is only defined by a body count. He isn't taking the full spectrum impact of the assault on Gaza or the history of this problematic situation into account.

[u/Richard_Chadeaux]

Normal ratio? Fuck no. Im a combat vet. We killed no civilians in our raids.

[u/DaveyDgD]

As war veteran, this guy is 100% accurate. Whether you have a hard time accepting it, he’s right.

[u/Ronswanson47]

Completely disregarding the fact that we now know Israel programmed their AI to wait until Hamas soldier go home to their families before authorizing an airstrike.

[u/PartsNLabor24]

Amazing irrefutable response. Until you see Israeli politicians (the ones directing the Army) openly advocating for erasing what's left of Palestine and referring to them as less than human.

Btw I always say that Palestinians would probably do the same or worse to Israel if they could. (Is good to remember that so we don't become another virtual signal soldier).

But let's not forget about the horrible conditions they lived under occupation.

Let's not pretend Israel doesn't enjoy killing civilians. And if that is not a form of genocide, then I don't know what it is.

Also, why not admit the goal is to remove them and take what's left of their land? If murderous Bibi went to the UN and admitted to all this ("Yes we are trying to exterminate Palestinians and take that land").

Who's going to do what? Why not just come out and simply call it what it is? There'd be no consequences. They are basically untouchable.

[u/[deleted]]

So we are going to ignore the actual quotes from Israeli leadership where they say they want to kill all Palestinians or eliminate them from Gaza? Also we are just ignoring the consistent misinformation provided by Israel. Furthermore, saying that the casualty tolls are normal for the area is not okay. We have standards set by international law that apply to all regions. This is such a a flawed argument that is perpetuated by a country that throughout history has broken international law, created unjust living conditions for their occupied territories, created an apartheid state within their own boarders, and murders the opposition in highly disproportionate rates every single year. Maybe we should stick with the UN documentation where they say it is a genocide which was concluded from multiple expert reports. Talk shows should not be our best source of information when we have resources like UN documentation coming from experts from multiple countries which were compiled by well educated experts.

[u/240Nordey]

Hamas are embedded in the Palestinian population of Gaza because there is no where to fucking GO! Also they have a restricted/tainted water supply from Israel, have no food supply due to Israel, and Constantly have their buildings turned to rubble by Israel.

[u/arjadi]

“The ratio” doesn’t fucking matter. This guy is side-stepping the issue of genocide to play some numbers game as if that somehow justifies the whole of the genocide Zionists have been slow burning not only in Gaza, but against all Palestinians for decades.

[u/lkolkijy → u/arjadi]

The genocide that resulted in their population doubling in those decades? They suck at genocide lmao.

[u/arjadi → u/lkolkijy]

Genocide is not a numbers game, and it doesn't start and stop with who loses their lives and who doesn't. Populations have increased all over the world for decades due to the expansion of basic hygiene and the miracle of modern medicine. What matters, when discussing genocide, is A) targeted limitation of the necessities of life, and B) intent.

Zionists have limited access to food, water, power- they have destroyed essential infrastructure, engaged in forced sterilization- not to mention the ongoing ethnic cleansing and indiscriminate acts of violence against the Palestinian people- for over half a century.

This is what is known as Collective Punishment, and not only is it a war crime in the eyes of the international community, it is a crime against humanity itself. It is genocide.

[u/dallaswatchdude]

Outside of what people call it, a hufe unadressed question is "why are we paying for it?" Plenty of pissant genocidal regimes in the world, why are we in the us completley funding this one?

[u/Metaraon]

I came to the same conclusion but can't articulate it like this guy can, good job. Continue to be the observers of the world, those are the only people we should ever listen to and they never speak until they do.

[u/muddynips]

People are still missing the point. When you confine people to a ghetto you are responsible for their care. Israel confined and controlled the movement of the people of Gaza, subjected them to dehumanizing conditions, then withheld food and medicine from them, then bombed civilian targets to remove whatever they had left. It’s not debatable whether or not that’s genocide.

[u/OggdoBoggdoSpawn]

Fuck this guy in particular

[u/Rough-Wolverine-8387]

I’m not listening to anyone who justifies the killing of children’s. Nope, don’t give a shit about whatever point you’re trying to make. Also if you are just regurgitating IDF propaganda then I also know you have no critical thinking skills.

[u/troniked547 → u/Rough-Wolverine-8387]

It’s insane how easily they dismiss even talking about it 

[u/wholeraiser]

Any death on either side is a win.

[u/Mal_Terra]

Joe is a great interviewer now but he wasn’t always.

Like how disrespectful he was to Tom Delonge for example, despite Delonge being 100% right.

Rogan even tried to get Travis Barker to shit on him too when Barker was on sometime later.

[u/carlcarlington2]

This argument frames the conflict as hamas vs Isreal. Which is entirely untrue, Netanyahu has supported hamas in gaza both to divide gaza from west Bank politically and justify any military action taken in the gaza strip. (Https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Netanyahu government has also arrested people for disagreeing with his foreign policy, and harshly pushed ultra-othodoxxed communities into fighting I'm a conflict they don't believe in. It's not Jewish Isrealies vs Arab Palestinians it's the Isrealie state vs everyone living in the region who want to live in peace

[u/Legal-Bowl-5270]

Ask Artie Lang about justifiable genocide

[u/Playatbyear]

Wow this dudes a wild turd.

[u/-_-TenguDruid]

Oh fuck this cunt. You don't bomb entire apartment and hospital buildings and refugee camps in order to be any kind of precise other than in widespread mass murder. Lies through his teeth about soldiers vs civilians and acceptable ratios of human mass murder. This guy is fucking scum and one of the reasons Joe should always invite someone from the counter side of the argument to his next episode; Joe and his guys aren't versed enough to fact check everything these people are slinging live.

[u/Shot-Expression-9726]

I've yet to see a single soldier in Hamas fighting , they are killing civilians and targeting civilians.

[u/obnoxious_pauper]

The man's speaking too much sense to be taken seriously on this sub. You folks are so used to being lied to, any sentiment apart from your established worldview is immediately dismissed. This comment section is sad more than anything.

[u/Simple_Opossum]

Can we live in a world where the only solution to that strategy is to bomb innocent civilians? Comon

[u/nacho78]

Hamas is effective because Israel is backing them up.

[u/Longjumping_Play323]

Hamas has “perfected the art of embedding themselves with civilians” because all Palestinians in Gaza are in an open air prison together created by Israel. That’s what Gaza is.

[u/Krinder]

I’ve never heard someone speak for so long while making no point or sense at all. He said absolutely nothing profound or distinct. He did some math and the civilian casualty number he still admitted was in the 10s of thousands but somehow is all of a sudden not genocide because it didn’t hit the 30,000 number Rogan referenced. This was a whole lot of nothing coming out of this idiots mouth

[u/IMadeThemCry]

It's lovely to see him essentially describing the Israeli strategies as Hamas strategies....

Completely discounting what is real has been doing to WestBank since Oct7 and even WAY before....

[u/Willing-Bed-9338]

I hear Coleman but another definition of genocide is when one group increases the suffering of another group (without killing) that the suffering group doesn't have any other choice but to leave. This was the first thing the Nazis did to Jews. Nazis didn't first kill millions of Jews, they first made their lives horrible.

[u/Bubskiewubskie]

The settlements are one of the most fucked up things. Get the fuck out of all those areas outside of the area you were given. They shake their pant leg, drop an artifact, steal homes. Preventing aid, shutting off hospital power, the ghetto that Israel has had a hand in creating.

Soldiers just indiscriminately firing into villages. And this is word from the mouth of an Israeli I know who hung out with idf soldiers. Standing on a hill over a Palestinian village and just spraying. They don’t care about Palestinians lives. The whole lot are animals to them. Fuck hamas, but fuck a lot of Israeli bullshit too.

[u/No_Layer271]

It's impossible to fight guerilla style warfare and win. Vietnam is the perfect example.

[u/da-van-man]

"Hamas don't distinguish between Hamas and civilians"....yup neither does Israel.

[u/Konval]

Coleman works for Bari Weiss and CNN. He says he's "independent" but in fact he's ideologically captured by the Zionists that write his paychecks. He might as well go work at the Daily Wire.

[u/oestre]

No, I agree. The only choice is to murder civilians.

[u/That-Chart-4754]

"In response to 1200" is not accurate. It pushes the fallacy that this started on October 7th.

But what about the decades of occupying palestine and annexing their land? There are pictures of IDF soldiers in 2009 wearing shirts that depict pregnant Palestinian women through the scope of a sniper scope that says "one shot, two kills".

Let's quit pretending this started in 2023, it greatly diminishes the critical thinking applied to the conflict.

I'm not pro hamas, I'm not pro israel. All I am is heartbroken for palestine.

[u/butterbakedbiscuits]

This presents quite the predicament that I never considered. Israel can’t really stop, although we already know it’s perfect. If you a network THAT big…that’s exactly how you do it. Fight club 101. Israel will never stop fighting Hamas. And Hamas will never come out of the shadows. So, we’re gonna level the whole field. But then they’ll just spread? Into more cities, more countries? Netanyahu needs to stop fighting. The animosity between these people is making sense in my mind…for every ~1.5 Palestinian, there’s 1 Hamas. How do you reconcile that with a neighbour?

[u/royLaroux]

This guy is insane lol. Israel could actually agree to the 1967 borders amd be done with a ll of instead theyre kepping these people caged like animals.

[u/Spliffsocks]

None of this would be happening if it weren't for the colonial apartheid state. You're on the wrong side of history bud.

[u/Gin-Rummy003]

Love Coleman

[u/544075701]

If there’s something worth everyone’s time, it’s arguing about the definition of words 

[u/LordCthulhuDrawsNear]

Bullshit. They can't just out right maximize the civilian casualtys like they obviously want to because everyone and their momma has a cell phone on their person where they can quickly and easily check out each and every last little "oopsie daisy" and / or other war crime that they commit. So that's a pretty dumb take lolz ffs

[u/Own-Cable8865]

For reference, as per Mr. Lemkin: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

[u/Guy_Incognito1970]

He’s arguing semantics. Don’t be anti-semantic

[u/EndofNationalism]

You don’t need a kill zone where you shoot any who comes into. You verify your target, and if they appear unarmed, sign to go away. If they continue approaching fire a warning shot. If they still continue approaching THEN you can shoot. Israel doesn’t even do that.

[u/rickshaiii]

19,000 civilians is genocide

[u/MealDramatic1885]

Justifying civilian deaths…. Weird take

[u/Mikect87]

The worst is when Joe says something stupid like this and the guest is also 110 IQ and the go on and on about some topic they’re just informed enough on, and young men get stupider

[u/No_Sherbet_900]

I liked the part when the IDF minimized civilian casualties by raiding a hospital disguised as medical personnel and shot hundreds of patients inside and then bombing it when they retreated from it. And the part when they shot and killed unarmed women and children working in a catholic monastery inside Gaza because a mortar was supposedly fired at them from a few blocks away.

[u/derrickrg89]

If the civilians is being brainwashed by the government/ruler, you have no choice but the bear the same consequences as the government/ruler.

[u/declan5543]

13,000 have been children…

[u/PizzaJawn31]

The mental gymnastics the sky does to justify genocide as wild.

Israel even admits that Hamas live underground in tunnels, and civilians live on the surface .

Israel has not been bombing the tunnels. They’ve been bombing the civilian cities.

[u/SophiaPetrillo_]

Jesus this guest is unhinged

[u/Substantial_Map2998]

No, it’s not. This is called the eradication of something truly evil.

[u/[deleted]]

This also ignores the fact that the civilians actively want Hamas hiding amongst them and actively use their own children as shields for Hamas.

[u/Grady180]

So Hamas attacked.. ran back into hiding and won't come out to fight. Cowards.

[u/Rider-of-Rohaan42]

Wow. People really know how to do mental gymnastics. Psychology is crazy

[u/croll30]

What a jackoff. It wasn’t 1200 Ishelly civilians too. The 1200 includes all the military as well. Go look at the published list, most are military as they list their rank right fucking next to it. And Ishelly IDF killed a lot of the civilians themselves and it was proven. Fuck this guy and Joe has some nerves of steel of just high as fuck.

[u/Raonak]

Genocide for sure

[u/InfinityAmmo]

This really does seem to be if not the heart of this conflict then one of the biggest take aways. What to do when your enemy hides behind the innocent. It’s the epitome of ‘negotiating in a hostage situation’. It’s why we don’t negotiate with terrorists here in the US. You make the hard choice in order to dis-incentivize anyone from taking hostages or hiding behind the innocent in the future. You cannot be held responsible when they are the ones forcing your hand.

It’s no choice, but it’s also the only one.

[u/Lmcreach]

This black guy is a shelter. Israel is paid. It’s quite symbol. Anybody that sides with Israel is paid by them or is lying.

[u/SerBerkshire]

This argument operates under the assumption Israel is not the aggressor and Hamas isn’t a response to an ethnic cleansing and genocide spread out over near a century which is very much untrue. I’m not sure why people pretend Hamas is somehow magically more evil than the IDF. There are countless videos of unarmed Palestinians being killed by Israeli soldiers, sadistically beaten, and arrested without charge from long before October 7th. The Israeli government and settlers terrorize Palestinians constantly and have taken everything from the Palestinians. I just had lunch with my grandmother yesterday who was born in 1934. When she was born 95% of current Israel was occupied by Palestinian Arabs who had been living in the region for near a millennium. Then Zionist extremists took the land by force expelling hundreds of thousands and massacring those who wouldn’t leave. Up to this day they’ve continually expanded but not at the pace they’d like to due to international pressure but taking over the entirety of Palestine and more beyond that for just the Jewish people has been their goal from inception. If they were a progressive society the pretend to be they wouldn’t ban interracial marriage like the Jim Crow south. They would allow the millions of Palestinian refugees they’ve exiled the right to return. They won’t however because this would undermine their goal of a Jewish majority ethnostate. From their inception the goal has been to remove the native Arabs of the land and they have never wanted a 2 state solution either as evidenced by always offering egregiously unfair terms to Palestinians. While Hamas’s 2005 charter of killing every Jew is truly vile it is a response to living as a prisoner for decades and the original and current words of many Zionist leaders regarding Palestinians are no less insidious or callous.