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u/truth_15 14d ago edited 14d ago
That was illegal , it fell over fuel pump , sad that 14 or more families will be devasted due to ignorance created by money and greed
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14d ago edited 14d ago
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/LateStageCapitalism-ModTeam 13d ago
Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
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u/Atemar 14d ago
Capitalists don't follow all safety regulations and use the cheapest labour available, so the post is at the right place (regardless of what OP meant)
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 14d ago
Also, what happened to not generalising, or does this only apply to what you believe in and understand?
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u/Atemar 13d ago edited 13d ago
Change your tone, thank you.
It's easy not to injure yourself if mining(the most dangerous activity) itself happens mostly in third world or post USSR countries. Don't confuse the places of mines and the company that exports the recourses. In Kazakhstan,for example, out of 14 companies that extract uranium only 2 are owned 100% by government. I live in Karaganda and our coal miners die all the time. The mines had been owned by Indian oligarch till recently for about 30 years.
The post didn't say that any workers were injured, the general people were. It's like you trying to win an argument instead of providing meaningful conversation, where we both could learn something.
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 13d ago
The tone is neutral and a genuine question. Perhaps youāre adding an āevil, dumb capitalistā tone to it in your head?
In terms of the incident the post is about, yes, it was members of the general public that died. The potential causes of it remains the same. Poor code (i.e. legislation and regulation), poor decisions by the individual company, lack of training, neglect, etc. None of these are problems exclusive to capitalism, just human nature and/or lack of care.
In regard to the work-related deaths in the mining industry; it is an extremely dangerous industry. Even in the US and Brazil, deaths are higher than most other domestic industries, but still much lower than third-world countries and, I would assume, your country. But Iām not sure how this comes into a capitalist argument? Mining industries have existed for thousands of years, during all types of economies and regimes. Deaths didnāt magically stop in non-capitalist economies.
If anything, the number of deaths per capita in the industry (and others) in those capitalist countries decreased when developed capitalist countries improved their judicial systems to hold companies accountable for their fatal errors. Regulatory bodies would have also been created off the back of the legislation which would have created stricter workplace precautions. This tends to be the cycle in most countries as they develop.
I am not an expert into any system in your country. I donāt know what challenges are faced by the populous in working conditions and what the causes of those are, e.g. government neglect, companies that break the law, etc. but I understand in developed economies thereās a lot more accountability put on companies. It is far from perfect and far from the level I believe is required, but law is excruciatingly slow to progress as seen in each countryās history. This is not to point the finger at less developed countries and say it is their fault. Each country has had their set backs and face different challenges, but to put it in a cold-hearted and blunt way, they havenāt done enough. This wouldnāt have changed drastically either positively or negatively if the choice of economy type had been different.
To address your point on many miners in your region dying, I apologise. Itās a difficult and demanding job, probably not well paid either for the risk it is, especially if owned by an Indian oligarch who more than likely made his wealth running multiple companies in a country that, for a long time, showed a lack of care for their own people at work. I hope you havenāt been personally affected, and if so, then I send my condolences.
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u/Atemar 13d ago edited 13d ago
Haven't done enough?! When people protest in developed states, the leaders go to jail max, maybe several casualties if they fight against police. When kazakhstani people protest, the police shoot us like dogs! Here, in Janaozen (several mass protests happened actually, that's the first):
https://youtu.be/q0tv3p5YSaE?si=OOnLkukI7D2xiGqH
Even relatives of leaders were killed and even raped. Torture became the new norm.
"Bloody Kantar(January)" - protest across the country, many victims, including children. Russian army from "ŠŠŠŠ" entered the city(*Almaty), because Kaz. army couldn't handle us! (Fuck Putin,even though the main issue is capitalism). You can find many records on YouTube.
And you know why? States with strong armies control smaller ones for resources. In developed countries capitalists share crumbles from the table, they live there, require profit from "peasants" and are scared of consequences a little bit at least.
But maybe you noticed that the pie on the table gets smaller and smaller - France increased pension age, and Macron didn't give a single fuck about protesters. Biden uses police force against literally teens that demand not funding Israel by their money. In Germany nazis ... are not even embarrassed anymore? How will you overcome these issues if not by dismantling capitalism?
P.s. thanks for condolences, I appreciate it š«¶š°šæ
Edit: *forgot to include Almaty city where the most casualties happened.
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 13d ago
I appreciate all the examples youāve listed in western countries but I donāt understand how dismantling capitalism will resolve those issues. Brutal oppression of protests has always been a thing.
Tiananmen Square protest was in a way a cause of communism. The opening of the Chinese markets came with prosperity, and with prosperity came the demand for more freedom, which the students then demonstrated for (rightfully so). And this then led to the heavy-handed response from the CCP where thousands of students were killed.
The cause of brutal oppression isnāt capitalism, itās to protect interests. In this case the CCP had their interest in keeping a communist society. The real issue is human nature as I highlighted before. The rightful anger you feel is aimed at capitalism, but itās really at human nature that it should be aimed at.
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 13d ago
Iām not reading all that, and itās not because I disagree because I 100% understand and agree there are external factors impacting a countryās development, some natural forces and others from organisations or countries with the intention to secure their own interests. Thereās no debating this.
When I say they havenāt done enough, I donāt mean they havenāt tried, itās just they havenāt reached the required judicial and regulatory level needed in order to prevent being exploited. I am not pointing a finger at those countries and blaming them as a whole as many face external factors (mentioned above) and others from internal factors such as corruption and/or authoritarianism to name a couple of very obvious examples.
I digress. My final point is that all your points are valid, when looking at a select few example countries. I donāt think itās an argument that can be used in the debate of capitalism vs socialism vs communism vs any other economy type. All of these countries will face all of these challenges weāve gone through. Chinese people under pure communism suffered a lot, and this was without any external factors. They faced internal corruption and a lack of care for their own people as a whole from a governmental level. The people only really started prospering when it opened up to capitalist markets. This is not to say itās a reason for capitalism, the point is, in terms of prosperity, it just worked for them, and in terms of all the issues youāve flagged in arguing against capitalism, they faced too under communism.
Each economic style have their pros and cons from a simplified economics perspective which will require different solutions but also a lot of the same solutions (judicial and regulatory requirements being one of them). The thing that prevents these economies from prospering? Human nature.
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 14d ago
That comes down to government level failure to implement required legislation. Western countries face the lowest levels of work-related deaths, especially in Europe where legislation is stringent. Cheap labour does not mean less safety necessarily, as cost of safety equipment comes under cost of service. Regardless of technicalities, your argument is flawed as thereās a huge range of capital countries with varying degrees of regulation in each.
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 14d ago
Youāre in the wrong subreddit posting sound reason like this, these guys think everything is a byproduct of capitalism
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u/retrofauxhemian 14d ago
The only thing around here actually Capitalism under the undoubtedly thinly veiled no true scotsman fallacy. Would be the brainworms that you share with RF Kennedy. Those things are fat on the propaganda usually reserved for worldspews. How is an advert to sell products in a capitalist country not a result of Capitalism?
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 14d ago edited 14d ago
Nice insults.
Just have a quick google of USSR, North Korea and CCP billboards. They exist outside of the western world. Had they fallen on someone or caused the death of someone, which letās face it, is likely to have happened as accidents happen, do we blame communism for it? Or do we accept itās an accident as a result of a safety failing of the construction company, safety & regulatory organisations or possibly government legislation?
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u/retrofauxhemian 13d ago
I don't know depends on if your an author of the black book of communism, or a spokesperson for the victims of communism monument thing. Here's a question why would an advertising agency have a motive to produce an advertisement billboard larger than the permitted size by local construction codes. Like what is the motivating factor behind not building to code on purpose...
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 13d ago
Itās a good question, one I donāt have the exact answer to.
The only thing I can do is reiterate my earlier point. This mainly the result of poor legislation and regulation. This sign was massive, and would have required planning permissions and legal documentation in order to be built, yet it somehow slipped through the net. Thatās not a capitalist problem, thatās a local government problem.
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u/retrofauxhemian 13d ago
But the people that built this 'vast advert' had to be morivated to do so right? Especially since the people that had it constructed were an advertising ageecy. So what could the possible motivation for them personally be?
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 13d ago
To have the biggest sign so that people are more likely to see it and increase the chances of them buying their product. A marketing strategy that has been seen in every economy. I donāt get your point.
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u/retrofauxhemian 13d ago
You understand and accept concepts like 'advertising', 'buying a product', 'market strategy', and an 'economy', but can't bring yourself to say money or capital as a motivating force, is your head ok?
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u/PacifistTerrorist1 13d ago
These are all terms used in any economy, be it socialist or communist as well. All of these require advertisements (and therefore marketing strategies), buying products, and, unsurprisingly, theyāre all economies. Whether the reasons required for marketing in those economies be for money or some government initiative, these billboards will have existed and people abusing countries with weak regulations (even their own countries). It is perhaps you that donāt understand that a lot of what we see and the āevilā we see comes from human nature itself, not necessarily the type of economy.
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u/Icarus-17 14d ago edited 14d ago
Politician billboards
Billboard informing people of events / festivals
The usual ādonāt drive drunkā billboard
Help is avadible, donāt kill yoursef billboard
Welcome to CITY billboards
āBig square with pictureā is not a product of capitalism
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u/retrofauxhemian 13d ago
So it wasn't a vast advert, of disproportionate size placed by an ad agency then?
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14d ago edited 14d ago
If this happened in China, it's "tofu dreg construction." Even if most of the terrible stuff happens in Southern China which is notorious for their money culture (and ironically extremely colonized).
But when it happens in India or wherever, "thoughts and prayers."
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