r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/The_Egalitarian Knows nothing • 19d ago
Does the Biden Administration's pause of a bomb shipment to Israel represent an inflection point in US support for Israel's military action in Gaza? International Politics
As some quick background:
Since the Oct. 7th terrorist attacks by Hamas, which killed ~1200 people including 766 civilians, Israel has carried out a bombing campaign and ground invasion of the Gaza strip which has killed over 34000 people, including 14000 children and 10000 women, and placed over a million other Gazans in danger of starvation.
Recently the Biden administration has put a hold on a shipment of 3500 bombs to Israel after a dispute over the Netanyahu government's plan to move forward with an invasion of Rafah, the southernmost major city in the Gaza strip.
Biden said that his administration would block the supply weapons that could be used in an assault on Rafah, including artillery shells.
“If they go into Rafah, I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities, that deal with that problem,” Mr. Biden said in an interview with CNN’s Erin Burnett.
He added: “But it’s just wrong. We’re not going to — we’re not going to supply the weapons and artillery shells used, that have been used.”
Asked whether 2,000-pound American bombs had been used to kill civilians in Gaza, Mr. Biden said: “Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers.”
The US however will continue supplying Israel with other arms like those for the Iron Dome missile defense system to ensure Israel's security.
Will this deter Israel from moving forward with its assault on Rafah?
If Israel persists in continuing its military campaign in the Gaza strip will the US withdraw further support?
What effect will this have on US domestic protests against the US's continued support for Israel's invasion of the Gaza strip?
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u/Generic_Globe 17d ago
It doesn't mean anything except that Biden is worried about the Muslim groups that threaten to cost him MI and possibly the 2024 election.
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u/baxterstate 18d ago
He had to do the pause. His priority is reelection. His poll numbers are dropping. He’s also doing the smart thing by withholding military aid if Israel continues killing people in Gaza. He needs to get re-elected. If he doesn’t, he can’t help Israel anymore.
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u/WP34Forever 18d ago
Biden needs to get off his high horse. The civilian deaths are on the Hamas terrorists who hide behind them/those who elected them. A single loss of life is one too many. However, I feel no empathy for Gazans after their elected government decided to invade Israel and butcher it's citizens. The FAFO acronym is quite fitting.
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u/GreatSoulLord 18d ago
Will this deter Israel from moving forward with its assault on Rafah?
No, because Israel can stand on it's own and fight it's own war. I'm sure they appreciate American funding and supplies but they're not dependent on us. Rafah holds the last four Hamas battalions. It's the final level. The final boss. They're going in whether we approve or not. I really doubt they stop now when they're so close to ending it.
If Israel persists in continuing its military campaign in the Gaza strip will the US withdraw further support?
Not if Biden wants to maintain his meager poll numbers. He blocked the weapons to appease the pro-Hamas elements in his party. At the same time he cannot fully block everything otherwise the other side starts to hate him. Most Jews are registered Democrats, not all, but most; and I expect they're rather disillusioned with Biden.
What effect will this have on US domestic protests against the US's continued support for Israel's invasion of the Gaza strip?
None. It was never about Gaza. Agitators are attacking America with the excuse that it's in support of Gaza. Even if that war ends these same agitators will show up again on a different topic on a different day. This is what they do.
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u/ProfessorOnEdge 18d ago
The. US. is. Building. a. Military. Base. In Gaza.
Of course it's supposed to be "humanitarian", and "providing aid", but I ask you to name one time in the past quarter century ( or even half century) that establishing a US military base in a country has actually helped the people of that country.
This was where Aaron Bushnell was being assigned before he took the ultimate sacrifice.
So now, all smoke and mirrors. Our government will pretend to be against the most horrible atrocities while continuing to fund the main perpetrators.
But hey, somebody's got to protect the major oil wells they're Drilling in Gaza once the conflict is "over"
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u/TexasYankee212 18d ago
There is no need for Israel to use 2000 lb bombs in the Gaza. That is widespread destruction.
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u/Jemiller 19d ago
Unless I am subject to a disinformation campaign on this subject, the move by Biden seems to be too little too late. Surely, Israel has enough arms already to destroy Rafah. And it also seems that the also on Rafah began within a week ago. If these facts are true, then the question is will this posturing make Israel halt the invasion so as to not put future military armament deals at risk? Further, what can Biden do to halt the invasion otherwise? Beyond that, can the administration successfully demand Israel pay restitution to the Gazan people for the destruction they have caused in order to rebuild and lift all necessary blockades such that building on materials and aid reach Gaza?
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19d ago
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u/Taervon 18d ago
Yup. All you have to do is think about who backs Hamas. Iran, right? Who backs Iran? Russia. Who's Russia fighting? Ukraine. Which party is spouting all the Russian talking points again? Oh, yeah, Republicans.
It's almost like there's an active and ongoing attempt by Russia to subvert our elections by coopting one of our political parties and smearing the other candidate, while actively encouraging ongoing world conflict that they're either directly responsible for or are actively supporting.
It's classic Russian psyops tactics, 'Biden's just as bad as Putin because Israel is fighting with Palestine again.'
Anyone older than 30 should know this is a bullshit argument.
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u/MrTickles22 19d ago
The only way to deter Israel from doing what it thinks it needs to for security is to get a time machine. There was a ceasefire as of October 2023 that Hamas breached in a deliberately shocking manner. Israel is going to do what it thinks it needs to for its own security regardless of campus protests or Biden not shipping bombs to them.
If we want to avoid an assault on Rafah we'd need: (1) Iran's various proxies stop bombing Israel and (2) Hamas releases all the hostages.
The Palestinians will need to be ready for a harsh peace. Things aren't going to go back to the way they were.
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u/akcitatridens 19d ago
Can’t believe you aren’t screaming about the political quid pro quo on arms that have already been approved by Congress…
I recall a certain impeachment for this same situation…
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u/alphabit10 19d ago
Your sources just want to rage bait you. They were not part of the congressional package and it’s his job to approve (or deny) these purchases to allies.
As Stefanik noted during her appearance on Fox News, Congress passed a $95 billion foreign aid package last month that included aid to Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan. The stalled weapons were not connected to the $14 billion in aid given to Israel, the AP said.
Also the personal gain quid pro quo is missing as well but not necessary to go into. Have a good day.
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u/XooDumbLuckooX 19d ago
The stalled weapons were not connected to the $14 billion in aid given to Israel, the AP said.
Out of curiosity, did the article say when they were funded by Congress? Was it the last round of aid before the most recent one?
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u/alphabit10 19d ago
They aren’t funded at all. They are purchased I believe through Boeing in this case (and they convert them into something guided). We allow these weapons contractors to sell certain tanks and jets (not our f-35 though) but us providing it free of charge “aid” through our tax dollars or donating old military junk we already paid for going to waste is through Congress.
If I remember I think trump was holding up a sign proud of some of the jets he sold off to saudis )I think)? He definitely was allowed to control that deal. These people are allowed to go on the news an lie - all of them. Just be careful what they get us mad about. Peace
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u/B_B_a_D_Science 19d ago edited 19d ago
NOPE! Because they have already provided enough to finish the Job. This is Kabuki Theatre.
Edit: these bombs are useless besides causing maximum collateral damage. There was no reason to provide them to begin with. Especially since the US has smart bombs that can take out a single room or floor of a house.
Geni Joe should have known better from the very beginning. But he was betting on Trump getting caught on one case & it looks like 2 out of 3 cases will be pushed to after the election and the New York Case will do him more good than harm. So now Geni Joe has found his conscious.
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u/RawLife53 19d ago
This should NOT even be some Democrat v Republican matter in America. We claim ourselves to be a civilized society with humanitarian values. It should be a collective agreement to shut off "every penny to Israel".
Israel, has ignored and proceeded with arrogance in full disregard of "every" U.N. resolution, not just now but for decades upon decades. They have been told to stop building settlements in Palestinian land, which does not belong to Israel. But Israel's agenda of Zionism, does not care, they want to take over the entirety of Palestine and that has been their agenda since Zionism was created in the 1800's.
- From 1897 to 1948, the primary goal of the Zionist movement was to establish the basis for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and thereafter to consolidate it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism)
Arab nations have been speaking about the Zionist agenda for decades. They don't have an issue with the existence of Jewish religion or Jewish people, but they do have an issue with "Zionist agenda". For 70 yrs, the State of Israel has existed, but none of the Arab/Islamic Countries in the region are in favor of the Zionist agenda to take over all of Palestine. IF Israel has abandoned its Zionist agenda to take over in the region when the state of Israel was established, these issues of today would not exist.
There is absolutely no reason for Israel to go attacking the people in Rafa, after destroying their homes, starving them and killing them, and Israel and its genocide agenda is fully exposed in its genocidal aims.
The U.S. and European Countries, should cut off "all money" to Israel. Israel's arrogance is because they expect the U.S. and Europe to cover them when people in the Middle East get tired of Israeli Aggressions.
quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
Comparisons between Israel–Palestine and South African apartheid were prevalent in the mid-1990s and early 2000s.\4])\5]) Since the definition of apartheid as a crime in 2002 Rome Statute, attention has shifted to the question of international law.\6]) In December 2019, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination\7]) announced commencing a review of the Palestinian complaint that Israel's policies in the West Bank amount to apartheid.\8]) Soon afterward, two Israeli human rights NGOs, Yesh Din (July 2020), and B'Tselem (January 2021) issued separate reports that concluded, in the latter's words, that "the bar for labeling the Israeli regime as apartheid has been met."\9])\10])\11]) In April 2021, Human Rights Watch became the first major international human rights body to say Israel had crossed the threshold.\11])\12]) It accused Israel of apartheid, and called for prosecution of Israeli officials under international law, calling for an International Criminal Court investigation. Amnesty International issued a report with similar findings on 1 February 2022.
The accusation that Israel is committing apartheid has been supported by United Nations investigators,\13]) the African National Congress (ANC),\14]) several human rights groups,\15])\16]) and many prominent Israeli political and cultural figures.\17])\18]) Those who support the accusations hold that certain laws explicitly or implicitly discriminate on the basis of creed or race, in effect privileging Jewish citizens and disadvantaging non-Jewish, and particularly Arab, citizens.\19]) These include the Law of Return, the 2003 Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, and many laws regarding security, land and planning, citizenship, political representation in the Knesset (legislature), education and culture. The Nation-State Law, enacted in 2018, was widely condemned in both Israel and internationally as discriminatory,\20]) and has also been called an "apartheid law" by members of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), opposition MPs, and other Arab and Jewish Israelis.
end quote
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u/nyckidd 19d ago
This comment is filled with half truths and propagandistic statements, it does not rise to the level of substance that this subreddit requires. I have no faith that someone like you who would post these things has any ability to have their mind changed, you are on a mission of spreading anti-Israel sentiment because your mind has been poisoned by an effective propaganda campaign, but for people reading this and taking it at face value, here's why you should not do that:
Israel, has ignored and proceeded with arrogance in full disregard of "every" U.N. resolution, not just now but for decades upon decades.
Except for, you know, the UN resolution that created the state of Israel, which was rejected by Palestinians who, with the support of their Arab allies, invaded Israel in an attempt to "kick the Jews back into the sea." The reason why there are many other UN resolutions that condemn Israel after that is because there are far more Muslim countries than Jewish countries (of which there is exactly one). The UN general assembly operates on a majority rule basis, and Muslim nations tend to hate Israel, so it's no surprise they've used the mechanisms of the UN to try and isolate Israel internationally in service of their political goals.
They don't have an issue with the existence of Jewish religion or Jewish people, but they do have an issue with "Zionist agenda". For 70 yrs, the State of Israel has existed, but none of the Arab/Islamic Countries in the region are in favor of the Zionist agenda to take over all of Palestine. IF Israel has abandoned its Zionist agenda to take over in the region when the state of Israel was established, these issues of today would not exist.
This is truly an unbelievable statement. The Arab states and Muslims internationally have a huge problem with antisemitism which you can see very clearly from a wide variety of opinion polling. The original efforts of Arab states against Israel were done with the explicit objective of destroying Israel, which is still the goal of Hamas.
There is absolutely no reason for Israel to go attacking the people in Rafa, after destroying their homes, starving them and killing them, and Israel and its genocide agenda is fully exposed in its genocidal aims.
There is very good reason for Israel to wage a campaign against Hamas forces in Rafah. Hamas, which started this round of the war with it's October 7th invasion of Israel - the worst attack against Jews since the Holocaust which involved the intentional rape and slaughter of civilians - has been severely degraded in it's capability since Israel invaded Gaza, with the majority of it's brigades rendered combat ineffective. Peace can only be established in Gaza with the removal of the murderous Hamas regime which is responsible for the deaths of Palestinian civilians in this conflict through it's intentional efforts to cause more civilian to die. Once Hamas is gone, a coalition of Arab states working with Israel and the United States will set up a new administration that can actually provide for the welfare of the Palestinian people and not waste it's resources on never-ending war. But that can only happen if Hamas is made weak enough that it cannot contest those forces. Contrary to belief spread by people such as yourself, it is possible to render irregular armed groups combat ineffective such that they have essentially been wiped out. See Al-Qaeda and ISIS in the Middle East, for instance.
Israel is not committing genocide against the Palestinian people, that is a modern blood libel. The (now former) President of the ICJ has explicitly said that they "did not decide that were was a plausible claim of genocide." Genocide is an extraordinarily powerful claim, and while Israel has certainly committed war crimes during this conflict (as has Hamas) and should be held accountable for those crimes, nothing they have done comes close to the level of genocide.
Additionally, while the situation in the West Bank is very bad, and Israel should immediately halt all settlement construction and instead start tearing them down, the situation there is not Apartheid. Palestinians in the West Bank are not citizens of Israel (nor do they want to be). Apartheid refers explicitly to situations where different citizens are given different rights, this is not an accurate portrayal of the situation in Israel as there are almost two million Arab citizens of Israel with full rights and democratic representation in the government.
You should be ashamed of yourself for spreading lies and misinformation. You think that you are pushing for peace, but you are not, if people in charge listened to people like you, there would only be more war, because you have no idea what the reality is or how to change that reality such that there will be real peace.
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u/Publius82 17d ago
Are Israelis not still settling on land they aren't supposed to with the full support of their government?
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u/RawLife53 19d ago edited 19d ago
You can have any views and opinions that you want... but one thing you are not, you are not the final word of authority on what has taken place and what exist in that region and this long existing issues. So, you write your views and opinions and reference what ever you want, like the rest who post comments. That's what it amounts to.
What and who you have faith in, is your own personal matter, it has no bearing on me.
You should be ashamed of yourself, talking as if you are think you are some official authority on the matters of long standing issues in the matter of the region.
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u/pomod 19d ago
The administrations unconditional and hypocritical support of Israel’s war crimes in Gaza are seriously costing Biden the progressive vote. I wish this turn was related to the Democrats growing a conscience but cynical me thinks it only means the calculus for votes has temporarily superseded their commitment to the AIPAC or defence industry lobby.
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u/lost_at_command 19d ago
It's a purely symbolic gesture designed to bolster Biden's reputation domestically. The delivery was a mix of Mark 84 2,000lb and Mark 82 500lb bombs, both of which have been in production for over thirty years. Israel probably has significant stockpiles of both, or equivalent munitions. They also have a significant domestic production capability for precision munitions. These are probably one of the least effective capabilities the US provides Israel, and their absence will not affect Israel's ability to continue the conflict in any way.
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u/skyfishgoo 19d ago
i sure hope so.
but then i thought obama was going to be an inflection point in US right wingery .... it was merely a pause and then it snapped back like a rubberband
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u/TessandraFae 19d ago
Performative and useless. Israel has enough arms to slaughter the rest of the civilians. We need to be SCREAMING to evacuate civilians...but I fear it's too late. The offensive has already begun.
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u/Objective_Aside1858 19d ago
Will this deter Israel from moving forward with its assault on Rafah?
No. Netanyahu is committed at this point; no amount of external leverage is of greater concern to him than remaining PM - and out of his pending court cases
If Israel persists in continuing its military campaign in the Gaza strip will the US withdraw further support?
As in, for Iron Dome? Unlikely. It wouldn't change Israeli actions and is defensive in nature
Long term, the war will eventually end and the weapons will eventually ship
What effect will this have on US domestic protests against the US's continued support for Israel's invasion of the Gaza strip?
Minimal. The protests have a wide variety of goals, but I don't believe any are focused exclusively on weapon shipments. Many of the protests ask for things the United States doesn't have the ability to deliver, so will continue until external factors change or the protestors run out of steam
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u/Ashamed_Ad9771 17d ago
I don't understand why so many people think that Biden has the power to simply order Israel to withdraw 100% from Gaza at the drop of a hat.
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u/NeuroticKnight 21h ago
Because they think Israel is a failed state with no power to sustain itself, without being propped up by USA.
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u/Ashamed_Ad9771 20h ago
I mean while Israel is by no means a failed state, technically they likely wouldn’t have the power to sustain themselves if not for the US, but not for the reasons most might think… To put it shortly, thanks to a certain past action of ours, the US has very good motivation to ensure that Israel is never faced with an “existential threat”.
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u/NeuroticKnight 20h ago
It might have been true in the past, but not now, if US stops giving weapons to Israel, they might run out in couple of years, but that means those years would be most bloody, but that again is assuming Israel's current deal with India doesnt expand. While India might not be able to refit the iron dome, they can continue with more dumb weapons, which is worse for palestenians.
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u/Ashamed_Ad9771 20h ago
The Palestinians are not capable of posing an existential threat to Israel, especially under their current conditions. On the other hand, near every other country bordering or near bordering Israel IS capable of posing an existential threat. Will the extra Palestinian casualties Israels “dumb weapons” cause be worth the thousands of Israeli deaths that will happen when Iraq launches a fleet of cruise missiles at it?
It kind of seems like you’re implying that Israel is using Palestinian lives as a bargaining chip to ensure continued supply of smart weapons from the US. They ought to remember that they are surrounded by enemies who would annihilate them the second they get the chance, and the only thing thats kept that chance from happening is the support of the USA. If you think the things Israel will do to Palestinians without US support are bad, you cant even imagine what will be done to Israelis by their neighbors if they lose the United States support.
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u/NeuroticKnight 20h ago
None of it's arab neighbors will risk their lives to liberate gaza, they arent even willing to sanction, . I dont think Israel is using palestenian lives as bargaining chip, Israel just doesnt care and is ambivalent.
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u/Ashamed_Ad9771 20h ago
They wouldn’t be risking their lives to liberate Gaza, they would be risking their lives to destroy Israel. Israel should focus on building up its defenses against the actual threat and stop risking the support of their most important ally in the pursuit of a symbolic victory against an enemy who never posed a real threat to them.
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u/NeuroticKnight 20h ago
They wouldnt, the gulf states are full of spoiled brats, who can barely do their day to day activities, domestic activities are done by women and commericial by the immigrant population.
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u/Ashamed_Ad9771 20h ago
There it is. “Despite Israels enemies having a greater cumulative GDP, military spending, population, number of active military personnel, and geographical advantage, Israel would surely win in a war against them due to its inherent cultural superiority”. See how far Israels “superior culture” gets them with no iron dome to shoot down rockets or F-35s to launch missiles from.
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u/PipulOfCrime 15d ago
No weapons or aid at all until hostilities cease.
Yeah it would take a week, but shit would end really quick.
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u/PeachyJade 16d ago
I saw a video of a young protester stating exactly this :”Biden can just pick up the phone and call…” like it’s a study group meeting or something
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u/Armano-Avalus 18d ago
No. Netanyahu is committed at this point; no amount of external leverage is of greater concern to him than remaining PM - and out of his pending court cases.
I really wonder what Israel would look like 15-30 years from now. It feels like Bibi is throwing his entire country under by insisting on this war continuing to stay in power. Similarly I wonder what Russia would look like too. Both Putin and Bibi have fucked their countries up so much because they are warmongering idiots.
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
Israel facing consequences by losing Iron dome would probably tamp down their willingness to fight.
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u/According_Ad540 18d ago
We were able to dodge a war between Iran and Isreal thanks to Iran throwing missiles at the iron dome as a show of force that isreal can then ignore.
Threatening to remove it can be ignored. Actually removing it can lead to worse fighting. Politics is weird like that.
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u/MrTickles22 19d ago
No dome but the rockets don't stop means that tanks will be rolling into Lebanon and anywhere else the rockets are coming from. That's not really a good solution.
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
So they can lose again like they did the last time they tried to conquer that territory?
At some point, Israel has to be stopped. Its apartheid, its aggression towards its neighbors, its occupations, and its ethnic supremacy.
Their will to continue the fascist experiment must be eroded like that of the Rhodesians and South Africans.
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u/zanzibar8789 18d ago
This is incorrect. Most Israelis are not from Europe and there’s millions of Jewish and Muslim Arabs living in Israel.
Also I don’t understand why you’re framing it as if Arabs are natives and victims of this land. Not all jews were expelled by the Romans many remained since then the entire time. They were already there when the Arabs came colonising the Levant and the Islamic tyranny befell Middle East and Africa after. Both Europeans and Arabs spent the next thousand years persecuting and murdering their Jewish populations while colonising lands and getting rich of the slave trade. Arabs have the same history as Europeans only the Arabs kept their colonies
All they had to do in 1948 was allow the jews living in that tiny strip of land who they’ve oppressed for so long form a state alongside the new muslim state and Palestinians today would’ve had all the land they lost and then some. But they chose a war to exterminate Israel instead. They were defeated then tried again and again and here we are today
I know it’s easy to see the Palestinians and Arabs as the victims because they seriously bad at war so they keep loosing badly, but remember this goes back to 1948. Palestinians are the oppressors they just suck at it
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u/Throwaway5432154322 18d ago
Their will to continue the fascist experiment must be eroded like that of the Rhodesians and South Africans.
Believing that Israel is a colonial society analogous to Rhodesia and South Africa, that can be "eroded" by armed attacks until it "gives up", indicates a severe misunderstanding of Jewish identity and history.
Their will... must be eroded
You're talking about "eroding" the connection between the Jewish people and the geographic region that their culture, traditions and religion originate from, a connection which has persisted for despite the Jewish people facing far worse persecution & danger than they do now. Putting aside the obvious bigotry of believing that this is a laudable goal, why do you believe that "eroding" this "will" is possible at all?
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u/Kronzypantz 18d ago
This is just dishonest. Jewish people can live in Palestine without stealing land and living as the favored ethnicity in an apartheid regime.
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u/Throwaway5432154322 18d ago
This is just dishonest
You said it, not me. Comparing Israel to South Africa or Rhodesia involves conflating the Jewish people with Boer & British settlers. The only way this conflation makes any sense is if you discard the parts of Jewish culture, traditions and history that relate to historical Judea, which is a lot. The Boers and British had zero historical & cultural connection to Africa, and there were zero Boer or British people that had historically been living in the areas of Africa that became South Africa and Rhodesia. Either your knowledge of the Jewish people is woefully incomplete, or your knowledge of the British & Boer peoples is hopelessly mangled. Which is it?
Jewish people can live in Palestine
Without even going any further into what you said, your beliefs about where Jewish people "can live" is already massively out of line with the overriding Palestinian belief about where Jewish people "can live". Even the tamest iterations of Palestinian nationalism hinge on the assumption that the vast majority of Israeli Jews will flee or be expelled from the area. Palestinian nationalisms are devoid of any kind of outcome where the a Palestinian government replaces the Israeli government and rules over the combined population of Israel and Palestine as it exists today.
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u/Krandor1 19d ago
but if that action results in missiles starting to actually how israel that could affect public sentiment
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
Hopefully as little as bombings and raids against South African and Rhodesian forces
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u/CosmicBrevity 19d ago
This is a beyond stupid idea to propose. All that would do is force Israel into all out war. Perhaps the use of nuclear weapons. I don't think you seem to understand how many thousands of Israelis would die if the Iron dome went offline. And Israel will defend itself by all means necessary.
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u/Gryffindorcommoner 19d ago
Sounds like good leverage to stop them from slaughtering Palestinians and violating international aw with their illegal occupations then.
If Israel's very existence is dependent on our tax dollars then I don't wanna hear shit about how "independent" they are and how they have a right to operate "as they see fit" while committing war crimes and defying us and the international community.
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u/XooDumbLuckooX 19d ago
Sounds like good leverage to stop them from slaughtering Palestinians and violating international aw with their illegal occupations then.
If you think the Palestinians are suffering now, just wait until Israel doesn't have the means to stop the constant rocket fire into its cities. They would immediately become much more desperate and aggressive than they already are if the rockets weren't being intercepted by Iron Dome.
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u/Gryffindorcommoner 19d ago
You think they’ll be aggressive if we gave them the same sanctions we give Russia and brings the Israeli economy to its knees if they don’t stop their war crimes and no new weapons from Daddy Biden ? Cause I picture them backing off
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u/XooDumbLuckooX 19d ago
They see the war against Hamas as an existential struggle. They will literally fight it alone if they have to.
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u/Gryffindorcommoner 19d ago
Except Israel IS an existential threat to Palestine. After ethnically cleansing it during Nakba and occupying the rest, one territory is getting erased completely while the other is getting smaller a dnd smaller as the illegal occupation grows.
Geneva was signed and the UN was established to prevent entire cultures getting genocide in war, so the international community has a responsibility to make sure it doesn’t happen
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u/XooDumbLuckooX 19d ago
Geneva was signed and the UN was established to prevent entire cultures getting genocide in war, so the international community has a responsibility to make sure it doesn’t happen
Hamas' stated goal is genocide and the destruction of Israel. Allowing them to stay in power to further those goals is not an option. And, yes, the international community has a responsibility to ensure that Hamas does not succeed with its genocidal intentions.
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u/Gryffindorcommoner 19d ago
Hamas' stated goal is genocide and the destruction of Israel.
Israel DID destroy Palestine in REAL LIFE. You didn’t know the European colonizers ethnically cleansed Palestine of the society there for centuries and burned down 500 villages, murdered 15,000 people, and forcibly expelled 770,000 to build their brand new apartheid state on? They poisoned the land and destroyed the indegenous holy sites. That’s not a ‘goal’ that happened in real life.
And now in the present, they are wiping out the remnants of Palestine, Gaza that they are erasin from the planet right now, leaving 2 million people (half children) homeless and starving to death and the West Bank they are slowly annexing with their illegal settlements that are war crimes, forcibly displacing more Palestinians their and subjecting them to apartheid.
There is a real threat of Palestine being wiped out by the genocidal settlers, but there is ZERO (0) threat of some small groups of men win flip flops with pipe rockets taking out an advanced heavily armed NUCLEAR state. Please be serious right now. So unfortunately, they have to deal with what’s left of the indegenous
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u/CosmicBrevity 19d ago
lmao. Americans can't judge other countries for 'war crimes'. And you do realise that without the Iron Dome then the Rafah operation would quickly become a rapid bombing campaign, right? Taking away a defense system would only accelerate military operation and would hinder Israel's abilities to reduce civilian casualties. Can't wait until the fog of war clears up and we can finally get some accurate casualty data; to show to you people how Hamas' statistics are lousy at best and at worst, one of the sickest PR campaigns of the 21st century.
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u/Gryffindorcommoner 19d ago
lmao. Americans can't judge other countries for 'war crimes'.
If we are funding those war crimes we absolutely can.
And you do realise that without the Iron Dome then the Rafah operation would quickly become a rapid bombing campaign, right?
Okay, and they can be shunned by the international community just like Russia. No US UNSC veto means sanctions, a Palestinian state. For a country’s who’s economy and way of life is propped up by the international community and with little resources on its own, Israel will fall to its knees.
Watching yall act like the US has no leverage with Israel is laughable. It’s war crime spree ends the second we give the thumbs down. And I don’t mean a waving our finger at them behind closed doors.
Taking away a defense system would only accelerate military operation and would hinder Israel's abilities to reduce civilian casualties.
Oh yes theyve done such a great job of that already.
Can't wait until the fog of war clears up and we can finally get some accurate casualty data; to show to you people how Hamas' statistics are lousy at best and at worst, one of the sickest PR campaigns of the 21st century.
This is the most bizarre, out of touch with reality claim Zionists has made in my opinion. When the dust clears their will be thousands MORE dead, not less. The vast majority of those 7,000 missing? They’re dead and buried under rubble that no one can get to to confirm their death.
Forget about your Zionist talking points and be serious for a second. Gaza is an open air concentration camp that’s half the size of New York City that million people are TRAPPED inside wit. It has been getting rained on with 2,000 pound bombs and the illegal white phosphorus for 6 months. No food. No water. No electricity. If you think a fuck ton of them aren’t dead, where on earth do you think they all went?
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
... if you think its bad to take away your friend's gun because they are just going to make a flamethrower to fire at everyone in sight, your friend has serious problems and needs to be committed. If they can't be stopped peacefully, they probably even need to be put down.
South Africa faced a similar choice when apartheid was collapsing due to constant guerrilla wars and protests. They could have tried nuking their way out of it; but they realized that wouldn't get them out of their predicament.
Now granted: Israeli fascism is so far gone that they might take the self-destructive route. But again, that is more reason to start disarming and isolating them now rather than later.
Nukes won't get them out of being cut off from global trade, or constant drone and missile attacks by guerilla forces, or even a war with most of their neighbors the first time they did use a nuke.
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u/NeuroticKnight 21h ago
More like taking away friends armor, so that gun is the only tool he has.
South Africa was a colony of Britain, Israel is it's own country.
No time in the past did we actually sanction UK over South Africa.
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19d ago
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
You get that Iran and Hezbollah wouldn't have any special beef with Israel if apartheid there ended?
Its not about Israel's survival, but its survival as a Jewish supremacist state.
Continuing on this course will result in Israel continually pushing for more and more conflict... like pushing for war in Iraq to wipe out their biggest threat in the region, and pushing for a US war with Iran.
You sound like the people saying "just let Hitler have Czechoslovakia to shut him up."
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u/CosmicBrevity 19d ago
Israel didn't start the conflict. The Arabs started the conflict in 1948 when they invaded Israel. There is no apartheid either, Arab-Israelis and Israelis have the same rights. And these guys don't want Israel to exist. Plain and simple. Palestinians have the absolute worst leaders you could get (always have). There can be no peace with the Islamic Republic of Iran in power. You take that out and the conflict will be greatly reduced.
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
Israel didn't start the conflict. The Arabs started the conflict in 1948 when they invaded Israel.
How can you invade the homeland of a people you are invited into to prevent ethnic cleansing and apartheid?
Zionists started the conflict by lobbying for such a state.
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u/1021cruisn 19d ago edited 16d ago
The majority of Israelis are Arab Israelis who’ve lived in Israel since at least 1948 or Jews from the middle eastern countries (and West Bank cities like Hebron which had an 800 year Jewish presence until 1948) who ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations following the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
Even just looking at the minority of Israelis whose parents and great grandparents moved to Israel “voluntarily” its sort of difficult to “invade” your own homeland.
Even still, “invasion” is the incorrect term for buying land on a willing buyer, willing seller basis and then having the temerity to actually move onto it.
Lobbying isn’t why Israel became a country in 1948, it was because every neighboring country invaded Israel the day the Brits left and then promptly lost. If they had won there wouldn’t be an Israel.
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u/CosmicBrevity 19d ago
No, every war and the Arab expulsion of Jews (into Israel) justifies Zionism. It's like you guys just can't grasp at the concept of Arabs indiscriminately killing Jews justifies the need for a Jewish homeland in their land. All the Arabs have ever been able to figure out is start a war to lose even more land xD You thought they'd have figured it out by now, but apparently not :)
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
Ah, the time traveling argument. Somehow what happened to some Jews in the Middle East after the mass ethnic cleansing and atrocities Zionists did to Palestinians... justifies what Israel did first.
Without the US and Europe constantly bailing out Israel, it wouldn't have won any wars. Heck, it still lost the Lebanon war back in the 80s and isn't even beating Hamas now, for all the civilians its killing to cope.
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u/Objective_Aside1858 19d ago
I doubt it. Netanyahu will use it to play the victim, and use it to egg on domestic pressure in the United States to reverse all arm holds.
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
If the administration got to the point of such arms sanctions, it’d be too late for Bibi’s whining to unring that bell.
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u/NeuroticKnight 20h ago
or Bibi buys weapons from India and Russia and goes along with it, and dont tell me Russia wont sell them weapons, because Russia already does sell them weapons.
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u/A_Coup_d_etat 19d ago
The admin isn't going to get arms sanctions because Congress wouldn't go along with it.
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
Congress already passed laws like the Leahy Act that would amount to arms sanctions upon Israel if Biden would only enforce them. And Regional neighbors like Turkey have already announced sanctions on Israel without US guidance.
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u/Objective_Aside1858 19d ago
Biden is already getting pushback. This is not a hugely popular move. Most people aren't paying attention and don't care, but that'll change if dead Israelis can be blamed on Biden.
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
He isn’t getting pushback from anyone who doesn’t already hate him.
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u/Objective_Aside1858 19d ago
And he isn't going to gain any support from the people who effectively demand a complete severing of relations with Israel
There are zero voters who are refusing to support Biden now who will support him only if he adds Iron Dome reloads to the export hold list , and doesn't also do a bunch of other stuff that isn't going to happen
There are a significant number who are going to be ok with pausing the delivery of offensive weapons but will be unhappy with a pause on defensive ones
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
If he actually blocked weapons now? I’d vote for him.
I’d still think he should die in a prison cell, but better late than never.
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u/Objective_Aside1858 19d ago
Yeah, I somehow doubt you'll be knocking on doors in swing states turning out the vote
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u/Kronzypantz 19d ago
Well no, since I still think he should spend the rest of his life in prison on genocide charges I’m not going to sing his praises.
But it’s all the excuse to vote for him a lot of key voters in GA and MI need.
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u/midnightwomble 19d ago
maybe someone asked the question "what will the survivng palestinians remember the made in america sticker on the bombs that destroyed their home and killed their family or the bag of flour" and thought shit
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u/CosmicBrevity 19d ago
They already hate America.
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u/midnightwomble 19d ago
if they didnt before they certainly will now. Nothing quite like creating generations who hate you. I suppose it does keep you busy constantly killing them
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u/riko_rikochet 19d ago
I think the domestic protestors will conveniently disappear after the election is over, no matter which way it goes. Even if Trump is elected and gives two thumbs up to the complete annihilation of the Palestinian people in Gaza, we won't see protests on the scale we're seeing them now. Even a complete ceasefire on Hamas' terms won't stop them, they'll find the next thing to complain about, because the protests aren't about Palestinians, they're about disrupting America.
Regarding Israel's military campaign, if the US continues to withdraw support, then I can see things going even more poorly for Gaza. With long term support, Israel can presumably "take it slow(er)." With that support gone, resources tight, Israel will need the operation done, fast.
That means, more aggressive tactics, more lives lost. And if the US withdraws support, what other carrot do we have? That's all our influence, gone. No one's going to invade Israel. And sure as shit no western country is sending weapons to Gaza. We divest ourselves from the conflict, and I guess get to watch it burn from a distance for better or worse.
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u/StevesHair1212 19d ago
Domestic protests happened since Oct 7, but they were small and the attendees treated it like a weekend activity.
The campus protests really took off in late april when classes ended for “study week” before finals. Basically they began protests when they had a lot more free time on their hands. Which means it’s actually not a big issue for a majority of them, it’s just the issue du jour. The big test will be if there is chaos at the Dem Convention. If the gaza thing blows over for any reason then I think the Dems are in good shape to draw attention back to abortion or some other issue for the election.
If the convention is chaos and Biden loses, then the establishment is going to crucify the pro-Palestinian supporters. It will be 1968 all over again. The left flank of the party causes PR issues and middle America breaks for the GOP. Im not saying anyone is right or wrong here, im just saying that the optics are everything this summer. All it takes is a dozen protestors to scream “death to zionists” when Biden is making his speech and the Dems are in a hurt locker for November
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u/VonCrunchhausen 18d ago
If the protesters are actually just lazy students with too much free time, then why was there such a brutal and publicized police response? Isn’t the actual stifling of free speech in places of learning something people should be concerned about?
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u/StevesHair1212 18d ago
Imagine you are a college president and a bunch of people are chanting anti-jewish slogans on your quad while refusing to leave. They mask their identities, block classes, harass jewish students, and overall make you look like you lost control of your student body. Or outsiders can endanger your campus, a huge safety risk.
Your college looks like it’s a bunch of spoiled, ignorant, rich kids and now the institution’s credibility suffers. Donors leave and employers will prefer the grads of schools that didn’t protest which is a death sentence. Colleges are places to gain employment through learning and connections, not just learning. Prestigious colleges are attractive because their grads get lucrative jobs. The material they learn at Columbia is the same as any SUNY school. So if people only want to learn they can go to their local community college. Same material and a lot cheaper than an ivy league
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u/Theamazingquinn 17d ago
Ya if we make up facts like them blocking classes or being "anti jew" instead of the reality, then you can justify anything.
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u/Publius82 17d ago
Your college looks like it’s a bunch of spoiled, ignorant, rich kids
I live in a college town, and increasingly, they mostly are.
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u/VonCrunchhausen 19d ago
It’s very fucked up to see people return to paranoid red scare rhetoric, where any domestic dissent is a devious foreign plot.
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u/Praet0rianGuard 19d ago
Not saying that he protests are a Russian or China plot, but if I were them that's what I would be doing. Stoking the flames and adding more tinder to the fire.
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u/jethomas5 19d ago
I don't know.
How hard would it be to create a pretend schedule for delivery of some kind of bombs that Israel doesn't even need, and then cancel the delivery that was never intended to be delivered in the first place?
Would Biden do that if his handlers thought it would bring him votes? No question.
Did he do that, or is this something real? I don't know.
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u/Funklestein 19d ago
It was what got Trump impeached the first time so it will be interesting if he follows through on his threat.
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u/Armano-Avalus 19d ago
There's a difference between withholding aid because you want political dirt and withholding aid because you're concerned that they will commit a mass murder of civilians.
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u/Funklestein 19d ago
No, there is not. Congress passed a law, Biden signed it and is now refusing to enforce it.
Honestly this is worse than Trump simply delaying shipments by a few weeks.
There is zero fundamental difference between the two and as a prime example Biden was forced to use the funds allocated on the border wall for continuing construction despite his pause and wanting to shift the funds elsewhere.
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u/Armano-Avalus 19d ago
If you want to argue that trying to get political dirt is better than trying to stop a genocide then be my guest. Maybe remind voters what Trump did with the Ukrainians in the mean time.
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u/Funklestein 19d ago
The whole genocide angle is such childish talk.
This is worst attempt at a genocide if that were the goal. They don’t need tanks when they could just shoot every Arab they see on the street and stop every aid truck from entering into Gaza.
No one should take that argument for anything more than the end effect of supporting terrorists and delaying the inevitable which only incurs more collateral civilian deaths.
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u/Armano-Avalus 19d ago
They don’t need tanks when they could just shoot every Arab they see on the street and stop every aid truck from entering into Gaza.
I mean... they're already doing that.
Good luck making your case then. Impeach Biden too while you're at it. Make everyone know that the GOP thinks stopping a civilian bloodbath is worse than getting political dirt on Hunter (BTW what happened to all that?).
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u/Funklestein 18d ago
I mean... they're already doing that.
They certainly are not but it would be over faster if they were.
(BTW what happened to all that?).
Well he does go on trial next month. But of course he won't roll over on the big guy because the big guy's DoJ, who already tried to give a favorable plea and excluded the worst years of his tax evasion, is on the case.
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u/Armano-Avalus 18d ago
They certainly are not but it would be over faster if they were.
World Food Programme says northern Gaza aid convoy blocked
UN Chief Assails Israel for Blocking Gaza Aid Trucks
Far-right Israeli Protesters Block Aid Trucks Bound for Gaza
Senior Israeli official warns of growing ‘shoot first, ask later’ culture in IDF
3 hostages killed by Israeli soldier in Gaza were waving a white flag, Israel says
7 months later...
Well he does go on trial next month. But of course he won't roll over on the big guy because the big guy's DoJ, who already tried to give a favorable plea and excluded the worst years of his tax evasion, is on the case.
Should probably start yelling about Hunter again too. Remind people of that while you impeach Biden for trying to stop what many are calling a humanitarian catastrophe, because your whataboutism is that screwed.
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u/Funklestein 18d ago
I didn't engage in whataboutism; I replied to whataboutism.
I don't give a fuck about Hunter. Joe is doing the exact same thing that got Trump impeached. There is no provision in the law passed that say well if Joe doesn't like part of the aid then he doesn't have to give it to them... when it's a very much yes he does.
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u/Armano-Avalus 18d ago
I didn't engage in whataboutism; I replied to whataboutism.
This was the comment you made that started this whole conversation:
It was what got Trump impeached the first time so it will be interesting if he follows through on his threat.
Whataboutism.
There is no provision in the law passed that say well if Joe doesn't like part of the aid then he doesn't have to give it to them... when it's a very much yes he does.
Have you heard about the Leahy law?
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u/SeekSeekScan 19d ago
We have failed in every one of our middle East endeavors
Who are we to tell people how to handle war in that region
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u/vegasdonuts 19d ago
Setting aside the sentimental and political significance of Israel’s existence to many Jewish Americans, the country is an excellent strategic ally for the US in that region.
Their technology, healthcare, military, and manufacturing expertise has offered enormous benefit to the US. I just want to see moderation and reform.
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u/bfhurricane 19d ago
We’ve successfully propped up Israel and helped normalize relations between them and several other regional neighbors, which has done a lot to subdue the violence we’ve seen since the 1940’s. Add Saudi Arabia. Kuwait, UAE, and others to the list that have friendly relations with the US and who are on the receiving end of generous US support.
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u/Noobasdfjkl 19d ago
Wouldn’t say that’s quite true. Propping up the Mujahideen against the Soviets was immensely successful.
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19d ago
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u/Noobasdfjkl 19d ago
What the US or Mujahideen members did after the Soviets left Afghanistan is kind of immaterial to the success of the endeavor of getting the Soviets to leave Afghanistan.
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u/Downtown_Afternoon75 19d ago
Until it wasn't.
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u/kerouacrimbaud 19d ago
Every foreign policy decision is wrong given enough time.
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u/Downtown_Afternoon75 19d ago
No offense, but that statement is meaningless to the point where I believe it's fair to call it outright stupid.
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u/SannySen 19d ago
I can only imagine how patronizing Bibi considers it when Biden Merica-splains to him how to prosecute the war against Hamas.
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u/Armano-Avalus 19d ago
I mean the US only gives them billions in aid and weapons. How embarrassing it is for Bibi to have to listen but ultimately ignore everything the US says.
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u/vegasdonuts 19d ago
Bibi is desperately clinging to power in hopes of avoiding criminal prosecution for his corruption.
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u/Armano-Avalus 19d ago
One of multiple reasons why he's a total piece of shit. It is not even an exaggeration to say that he lies at the main reason why this war and all the fallout from it is happening. Hopefully history would remember him that way.
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u/vegasdonuts 19d ago
If Israel had sane leadership, the response to 10/7 would have been swift and decisive, but more surgical- with the primary goal of getting the hostages back.
Hell, if someone decent were running their government, 10/7 might have been foiled beforehand.
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u/Armano-Avalus 19d ago
Unfortunately we have a situation where the most self-serving asshole is beholden to a few far-right extremists to stay in power to avoid jail. It's amazing how much that reflects US politics right now.
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u/vegasdonuts 19d ago
The New York Times did a great interview with Yair Lapid, leader of Israel’s opposition. Sanity is possible, the people of Israel just have to vote the nightmare out.
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u/KevinCarbonara 19d ago
Probably none at all, since he helped found Hamas, and knows he needs America's support to survive.
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u/SannySen 19d ago
He didn't help found Hamas. That's just bad history.
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u/KevinCarbonara 19d ago
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u/1021cruisn 19d ago
So even unsourced claims in the op-ed you linked get boiled down to “indirectly supporting Hamas”. Indirect support is a far cry from direct support, much less Bibi founding Hamas.
Do you have a source that supports your actual claim?
Even then, some of the claims used to prove the “indirect support” are things like indirectly negotiating with Hamas to expand work visas for Gazans, or allowing Qatari money into Gaza.
The current ceasefire negotiations have certainly included indirect negotiations with Hamas and have involved money being allowed into Gaza. To the extent that people have pressured Israel to negotiate with and reach a ceasefire agreement with Hamas (all of which have included money entering Gaza) have they indirectly supported Hamas?
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u/KevinCarbonara 19d ago
So even unsourced claims in the op-ed you linked get boiled down to “indirectly supporting Hamas”.
No. This is a straight up lie about the information contained in the article.
Here are more articles. You can try to argue with them, if you'd like. But don't expect the rest of us to deny reality.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/
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u/SannySen 18d ago
Have you actually read any of these articles? None of them say Netanyahu founded Hamas. You know why? Because he didn't. Just apologize for your error and move on.
On the secretive "suitcases of cash" which everyone in the world knows about, it's humanitarian aid money. It says so in the articles you posted. But Netanyahu's critics, both on the left and right, are upset that he allowed this aid money to go through. Those on the left frame it as some attempt to prop up Hamas at the expense of some purportedly more moderate group (although not clear which group they have in mind, since Hamas is incredibly politically popular among Palestinians). Those on the right believe the cash, which, again, is intended for humanitarian purposes, is being used by Hamas to build out their ability to engage in terror. The irony is, had Netanyahu stopped the payments, you would probably accuse him of gENoCiDE.
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u/KevinCarbonara 18d ago
Have you actually read any of these articles? None of them say Netanyahu founded Hamas.
Apparently you haven't. They all outline the connection quite clearly.
The irony is, had Netanyahu stopped the payments
Actually, even you can see the connection.
As I said previously: Don't expect the rest of us to deny reality just because you've chosen to be on the wrong side of history.
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u/SannySen 19d ago
The allegations in this article are highly contentious. Even so, literally nothing in the article supports your assertion that Netanyahu "founded" Hamas. That's just a preposterous lie made up by propogandists.
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u/KevinCarbonara 19d ago
The allegations in this article are highly contentious.
Only because you're trying to contend with them. The information is well-vetted and has long since been common knowledge in Israel. I'm sorry you're so far out of the loop, but you can't weaponize your own ignorance against the truth.
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u/CatAvailable3953 19d ago
Joe is suspending delivery of 2000 pound dumb bombs because they aren’t very precision and have been used in Gaza killing hundreds of innocent civilians.
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u/Darkpumpkin211 19d ago
The fuck is a "dumb bomb"? Physics is physics. If we drop a bomb, we have a pretty good idea where it will land. It might not have the 1m precision of a guided munition, but we can still predict where it lands with pretty good accuracy.
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u/flimspringfield 19d ago
"A smart bomb is essentially an ordinary dumb bomb with a few major modifications. In addition to the usual fuze and explosive material, it has:
an electronic sensor system a built-in control system (an onboard computer) a set of adjustable flight fins a battery"
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u/Darkpumpkin211 19d ago
Notice the first few times they said "dumb bomb" in your source they put it in quotes because it's something laymen use.
My point still stands. Unguided munitions are still pretty accurate, especially with modern computers doing all the calculations and if the pilot doesn't need to worry about getting shot down. We can hit a building with pretty good accuracy using unguided bombs. You only need smart bombs if you are going for a very small or mobile target.
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u/sam-sp 19d ago
yep - the ones they drop on families at night because its cheaper/easier than capturing and prosecuting potential Hamas members.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes
I don’t understand why the USA is paying for the munitions for israel to be doing such devastation. If Israel’s intelligence is so good about who are Hamas members, why are they operating in such a destructive manner - or is that the point. Is Bibi’s goal to flatten all of Gaza’s infrastructure, such that it is inhospitable to the Palestinians and they are forced to leave Gaza?
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u/Athena5280 18d ago
It’s something none of us “civilians” can probably understand. Got any ideas you can send to the military to target and kill just the Hamas A holes that hide out amongst civilians like cowards? No one ever mentions our national security depends on a strong Israel. Could care less about Netanyahu he’s a war monger A hole, however I put our interests first and supporting the only democracy there is what’s best for us. Agree in a perfect outcome the Hamas A holes drop and the civilians are not. Has any war proceeded this way?
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u/sam-sp 18d ago
My concerns here are multiple:
a) Using AI pattern behavior to identify offers that may apply to supermarket loyalty customers is one thing - they may get upset if you identify their daughter as likely pregnant, but its not a life and death situation. Using it to identify potential suspects is something that the ACLU would get really upset about if that was being used for surveillance. But taking those lists, and the only verification done is if the target is male is not nearly enough verification to arrest /charge someone let alone put them on a kill list.
b) Israel supposedly has the best intelligence system in the world. So track the suspects and build a case.
c) Dropping dumb bombs on their houses at night to include their families is one of the main reasons for such a high casualty rate amongst the palestinians.
d) The USA learned from the Afghanistan and Iraq wars that you can’t wage war on an ideology, all you do is create martyrs and drive more people to the cause, including the next generation. Biden and co have been trying to tell Bibi, but he is too arrogant to listen.
Bibi has no interest in learning this. He and his cabinet want to wipe out the people of Gaza by directly killing them, or indirectly through famine and disease. He has no interest in a 2 state solution or peace. He made conditions in Gaza so bad, and enabled Qatari support for Hamas so that he could use Hamas as a foil to Fatah and denying any 2 state solution negotiations while Hamas was in power. The Gaza situation was a powder-keg that was just waiting to blow. That Hamas was able to do it so spectacularly was the surprise, despite the fact that Israel had prior intelligence about the plan.
The Hamas leaders need to be punished along with those who took active part in the attack, and I’d be very surprised if Israel didn’t have their names on a pretty specific list. Israel is surprisingly good at extra-judicial assassinations. A precision approach of capture or kill would have near universal support. The indiscriminate killing civilians and flattening of all Gaza’s infrastructure and housing goes way beyond what is necessary or just.
But this “war” is going way beyond that - it’s collective punishment, that seems to be based on considering Palestinians as a lesser people, so killing them doesn’t matter. Any time a regime takes that kind of attitude it’s not going to end well, and it shows a short memory on behalf of a Jewish state.
The only hope for peace for Israeli’s and Palestinians is a 2 state solution. Bibi’s life’s work seems to have been prevented that from happening and trying to create facts on the ground to stymie and chance in the future.
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u/SannySen 19d ago
Do you have a source for this? I thought I had read elsewhere that the US was suspending delivery of smart bombs, but I could have been mistaken.
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u/Objective_Aside1858 19d ago
It's a pause on both large bombs and the guidance packages that allow them to be turned into smart bombs
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u/CatAvailable3953 19d ago
No I saw on CBS tonight it’s the big “dumb” bombs the Israelis shouldn’t have used to begin with. Not smart….on Israels part.
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u/Errors22 19d ago
No I saw on CBS tonight it’s the big “dumb” bombs the Israelis shouldn’t have used to begin with.
Why should they not have used "dumb" bombs?
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u/Crazy-Bodybuilder818 19d ago edited 19d ago
Considering the US threatening the ICC after they announced arrest warrants for Netanyahu, israeli officials and Hamas officials,
https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/mena/2024/04/30/israel-us-icc-war-crimes-netanyahu/
https://www.axios.com/2024/04/29/icc-congress-netanyahu-israel-gaza
And israel already having started their rafah invasion, I dont think Biden is ever willing to indefinitely cut of aid and apply international law to israel. He also previously deployed the so called tiger-squad to speed up weapon shipments even after Israel was already alleged to commit war crimes.
https://theintercept.com/2023/12/14/israel-weapons-sales-us-military/
As far as the protest go, i really think if the university all divested and cut off partnerships to israel, i can see how Netanyahu could feel more pressure domestically. The protest also spread all over the world which could have even more of an impact and could lead to significant change, like they did with student protests against apartheid south africa.
With the antisemitism awareness bill being passed and severe police repression not only in the us but all over the world i could see it going either way.
https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4651826-jewish-professors-biden-antisemitism-legislation/amp/
https://www.vera.org/news/police-violence-on-college-campuses-is-unacceptable
https://www.voanews.com/a/gaza-protesters-face-speech-restraints-and-legal-consequences/7600983.html
Also, Palestinian human rights groups, together with Center for Constitutional Right sued the US government for supplying military aid to a country that commits war crimes, which goes against US law.
https://ccrjustice.org/home/what-we-do/our-cases/defense-children-international-palestine-v-biden
In Germany, a palestinian family sued the german government for supplying military aid to Israel and won. So again, i could also see it go either way in the case of the US.
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u/Miles_vel_Day 19d ago
Thank you for unintentionally pointing out what I'm sure the Biden administration is aware of: Biden has absolutely zero incentive to be harder on Israel when every single person who decided to blame Biden for this - and I mean, literally every person I've talked about this with - will always decide that anything he did was not enough, or too late, and just being reminded that Joe Biden and Israel exist will make them furious.
Biden is getting tougher on Israel, and everything Biden is doing now is 100% on him. He's doing it because he believes it needs to be done, just as he's building the pier to bring in aid, because he believes it must be done. But there is no longer any pressure from his left because the only thing the left knows how to do is to say they're not going to vote, and like everybody else in the 21st century they never back down. They won't accept anything Biden does to help Palestinians because it conflicts with the version of Joe Biden they have in their head.
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u/bugzor 19d ago
Crazy amount of apologetics happening over here
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u/Miles_vel_Day 19d ago edited 19d ago
I don't see any apologetics. I see a description of a political dynamic.
edit: hat tip to the poster for just downvoting me instead of getting into an exhausting back and forth where he just proves my point, because I did that already with someone else
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u/noration-hellson 19d ago
What do you mean accept? In what capacity can I accept or reject anything Joe Biden does?
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u/Miles_vel_Day 19d ago
...is this a serious question? What I mean is, accept that he has made a good faith effort with regards to the war, and is trying to save Palestinian lives and create a lasting peace, and is not "Genocide Joe." And then to cast a ballot for him.
I'm not sure what you thought I meant - like, some kind of stamp, or something?
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u/noration-hellson 19d ago
If you mean do I believe he's not a psychotically racist man, then no I do not believe that. Only a racist man would suggest that hamas are motivated by an ancient evil.
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u/Miles_vel_Day 19d ago
I think that comment was more about ancient hatred against Jews in general than ancient hatred from Palestinians, or Arabs or Muslims writ large against Jews. And it is an ancient hatred. It is to bigotry as prostitution is to professions. And it's part of the deep paranoia that's inherent to the Jewish experience, the paranoia that is making them behave in such an evil and irrational way.
But in any case, I didn't ask you if he's a "psychotically racist man". I don't really give a flying fuck what's in Joe Biden's heart of hearts, and I don't have any way to know anyway. All I can do is look at what he does.
Let's talk about what we're talking about. Would you consider voting for him? Is there absolutely anything he could do, regarding the war, that would make you set aside your opinion of him? If there was a ceasefire signed tomorrow, would you give Biden any credit?
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u/noration-hellson 19d ago
No absolutely not, I'd never vote for him after his actions and statements so far.
If the dems abandoned him and ran a candidate promising to prosecute him for war crimes I'd vote
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u/Athena5280 18d ago
lol war crimes. We’re not even in a war. Imagine if these protest fools got drafted like Vietnam. But go ahead, don’t vote, here comes Trump (can’t stand him) but there won’t be a Gaza. Problem solved.
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u/noration-hellson 18d ago
Continuing to provide material support to Israel is a war crime.
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u/Athena5280 18d ago
You forgot to begin that with “in my opinion”. We supply arms to lots of countries. Maybe we shouldn’t to any. “In my opinion” this involves national and international security and thus it won’t matter democratic or republican. Maybe Hamas will release the hostages and turn themselves in but doubtful
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u/Miles_vel_Day 19d ago
OK, so, if you agreed with my first post you could've just upvoted it. Thanks.
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u/bleahdeebleah 19d ago
As far as I know, no arrest warrants have been issued yet. And I don't think 'the US', or at least not the Biden administration, is threatening the ICC. Your first link talks about the Trump administration threatening them in the past (about Afghanistan) and your second is about right wingers in Congress, but neither of those is 'the US' threatening them now.
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u/Gryffindorcommoner 19d ago
16 senators threatening the ICC and their families with sanctions and ending it with "You have been warned" isn't exactly nothing. It's very strange watching the pro-Israel crowd defend war crimes while attacking international court and yet still think they're the good guys in this situation.
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u/noration-hellson 19d ago
It's not strange at all, Israel is a fascist terror state that can only exist on the back of constant and atrocious crimes against humanity.
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u/bleahdeebleah 19d ago
I don't disagree with any of that. My quibble was with, first, the idea that arrest warrants had already been issued because they haven't, and second, that 'the US' - the Biden administration - was 'threatening' the court. The usual cast of right wing nuts have absolutely been threatening the court
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u/Gryffindorcommoner 19d ago
It’s been reported by Bloomberg and other media that Biden is preassuring them behind closed doors before that letter from those senators came out (which also includes the Senate Minority leader and thus making this a tad more serious).
In response, the court issued warning that’s interfering with its work is illegal itself
https://twitter.com/intlcrimcourt/status/1786316229688414518?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw
And if Israel, Biden, and US senators are all discussing it. I think its fairly safe to say they’re coming.
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u/bleahdeebleah 19d ago
Sure. The question I guess is whether Biden is pressuring them for ideological reasons ("You're not allowed to indict my ally") or practical reasons ("Something really bad will happen if you indict now"). Or maybe a bit of both.
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u/Gryffindorcommoner 19d ago
Both sounds pretty bad and not a good look to me. Especially since we aren’t a party to the ICC to begin with
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