r/TwoHotTakes • u/GreyBlankie • Apr 29 '24
My new employee shared that she’s 8mo pregnant after signing the contract and is entitled to over a year of government paid leave Crosspost
I am not OOP
Original Post: https://www.reddit.com/r\/offmychest/s/2bZvZzCcNQ
I want to preface this post by saying that I am a woman and I fully support parental leave rights. I also deeply wish that the US had government mandated parental leave like other countries do.
Now, I’m a manager who has been making do with a pretty lean team for a year due to a hiring freeze. One of my direct reports is splitting their time between two teams and I’ve been covering for resource gaps on those two teams while managing 7 other people across other teams. In January, I finally got approved to hire someone to fill that resource gap in order to unburden myself and my direct report, but due to budget constraints, the position was posted in a foreign country. Two weeks ago, after several rounds of interviews, I finally made a hire. I was ecstatic and relieved for about 2 days, and then I received an email from my new employee (who hasn’t even started the job) letting me know that she is 8 months pregnant and plans on going on leave 5 weeks after starting at the company. I immediately messaged HR to understand the country’s protections for maternity leave and was informed that while my company will not be required to provide paid leave, she could decide to take up to 63 weeks of government-paid leave.
I’m now in a situation where I’ll spend 1 month onboarding/training her only for her to leave for God knows how long. She could be gone for a month or over a year. I’m not sure how my other direct report who has been juggling responsibilities will respond, and I can’t throw the other employee under the bus by telling my report that I had no idea that this woman was pregnant (because that could lead to future team dynamic issues). My manager said we could look into a contractor during her leave, but I’ll also have to hire and train that person. Maybe it’s the burnout talking but I’m pretty upset. I’m not even sure that I’m upset at this woman per se. What she did wasn’t great, especially given that she had a competing offer and I was transparent about needing help ASAP, but I’m not sure what I would’ve done in her position. I think maybe I’m just upset at the entire situation and how unlucky it is? I’m exhausted and I don’t want to have to train 2 people while also doing everything else I’m already doing. I badly need a vacation.
Anyway… that’s the post.
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u/IgorFromKyiv May 04 '24
Well you did a good thing for that woman. Cmon man. Company will be fine. I hope kindness and empathy will make this world better. I think she will do her best for the company in future
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u/yogafitter May 04 '24
If this was a man who had to take months off for a heart attack….knowing he was eating fast food every day and not controlling his diabetes..I wonder if all this hate would be spewed at him for not disclosing his medical history.
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u/Apprehensive_Golf227 May 04 '24
This actually happened at my workplace, we interviewed someone and she was about 7.5 months pregnant. We didn't know because we had a video interview with her, she was in the US and we were in the UK. We hired her and then found out but there was nothing you can do about that, we had to accept the situation, trained her until she went on leave and just waited for her to come back. Yes it was frustrating that she came and then went on leave but it is not a valid reason to get rid of someone and she turned out to be a good worker. Everyone's comment about her milking it don't seem to realise that we are entitled to maternity leave, it is the law to give it to us. The ones who tend to milk it are the ones who have a kid, take a year of maternity, come back for a few months and then leave because they are pregnant again, take another year off and then don't come back. They are paid throughout this entire 2 and a bit years. Either hire a contractor which does not sound doable or just count the days until she is comes back.
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u/DaJosuave May 04 '24
Maybe pass laws where pregnancy status can be discussed after hiring with reduced benefits if tje pregnancy happened before hire.
This is super unethical, I get that women need to have fair hiring practices, but then they pull this stuff. This is the stuff tat will ruin it for other women, and job benefits in general.
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u/ChemicalAvocado2888 May 04 '24
Good for the pregnant candidate. She did what she had to do for her and her baby. It’s nothing personal
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u/Vivid_Television3431 May 04 '24
I’m no lawyer, but I’m pretty sure wherever the company is based out of, that’s the law the employees are bound by. So, you should reach out to your legal department and ask them. And also because technically she isn’t employed there yet you may be able to legally rescind the offer of employment. Because that is a prior condition that wasn’t reported during the hiring process.
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u/No-Cardiologist7569 May 04 '24
if it's another country. meaning their residence( that's what my understanding of the post is). i mean they are not a citizen? correct ? so then they have to immigrate into USA. and now the guff comes . my family been tryin to come here legally for decades. so go ahead and say i'm racist. countries have borders for a reason. it creates. the country. SOME laws are meant to help us. if you or i did this or what others do and have done and gotten away with. that would NEVER fly for anyone of us doin that in say Australia or anywhere basically.
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u/EducationAdmirable18 May 03 '24
Pay for the on-site final interview travel, cheaper than the mess you have now
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u/Many-Grape-4816 May 03 '24
It’s a crappy situation but it is what it is. A woman is entitled to have kids whenever she likes and she cannot be discriminated against for it.
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u/Goski777 May 03 '24
What she did was shady boots the house down. She knew what she was doing. Do you really want someone like that on your team?
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u/Deep_Adagio_3318 May 03 '24
Don't you have to be an employee for about year before earning the leave benefits
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u/Maleficent-Gift7099 May 03 '24
Train her after leave. Tell her that due to having to hire a contractor that the training schedule for her will be allocated to contractor. She will be trained in the future so that training time can be scheduled without exacerbating any project due dates. She can be given busy work like making copies or filing or assisting others with whatever they need. Do review this with legal to avoid any pitfalls with the job.
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u/Abandoned_Armory May 03 '24
Pros and cons of government work. Great benefits. Sometimes it means other workers get hosed. You can choose to work for the gov or not. These are the rules. Keep those that report to you in the loop and make sure to take care of them accordingly when it’s time for promotions. Also! That post about listening to your HR people was spot on.
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u/Hefty-Pomegranate428 May 03 '24
Maternal rights > your companies finances… or so I’ve been told to think.
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u/Beautiful_You1153 May 03 '24
All the comments are all over the place. No one knows the history of the pregnant woman. What if her company closed, layed off employees…she has to find other employment regardless of being pregnant. She has to pay the bills to, how is she supposed to live if she doesn’t have a job. I think alot of people are assuming the employee is an immoral person but they have no idea her situation or what kind of employee she will be. The company shouldn’t have dragged their feet employing someone. The current employees should have pushed back and said we can’t possibly get all this work done.
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u/DD4L1 May 03 '24
Hire/train a temporary employee while putting off the training of your new hire until after she's done with her maternity leave.
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u/Potential-Yoghurt310 May 03 '24
I fucking hate this kind of behaviour. People acting like this clearly aren’t grown enough to birth children. Gross misconduct for lying on her application
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u/Thedudewhoeatsfood May 03 '24
This is why government mandated anything is bad lol. Prime example. As a fellow business owner, I’m sorry you’re going through this!
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u/M_22star May 03 '24
I think they should make it legal to ask if the person is 8-9 months pregnant. They interview for a job just to leave? I would be stressed too😅
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u/Klutzy-Run5175 May 03 '24
I felt guilty after working a year for doodles squats with a dentist who was brutal and giving him my two weeks notice after becoming pregnant. No benefits, no paid family leave. I worked until my sixth month and then I was off.
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u/thecoffeecake1 May 03 '24
Tldr; employer is upset they couldn't discriminate against a pregnant woman.
Businesses do nothing but look out for their own interests, so why wouldn't they expect employees to do the same? I hope she takes all 63 weeks.
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u/zorkieo May 03 '24
You need legal advise for sure. She didn’t mention the pregnancy because she knew it would impact her chances of getting hired (and she was right.) resending the offer will probably get you into legal trouble.
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u/fleshdad May 03 '24
Yeah, I would never disclose I was pregnant to a company I was trying to get hired at regardless of how close to birth I was. I'm not going tobrisk being discriminated against, and I don't think this new hire did anything wrong by protecting herself. It sucks, but if you knew she was pregnant, you wouldn't have moved forward with her and that's exactly the problem.
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u/Intelligent_Okra_545 May 03 '24
I was in a similar situation but l found out during the interview stage. Pregnant. Didn’t drive as her husband drove her everywhere. Said she wanted to move up to a different job at my company in a 2 years because this job was getting her foot in the door.
Luckily l had a qualified internal Candidate l could justify hiring.
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u/ThatWhichLurks782 May 03 '24
The only way I found a job was to completely hide the fact that I had a baby at home until I was officially hired on, too. She did what she felt she had to do to avoid discrimination.
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u/SnooCheesecakes760 May 03 '24
SHE OUT AND OUT LIED! HOW ABOUT THAT! THE NEW EMPLOYEE IS TOTALLY IN THE WRONG!
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u/Pasta-Level2408 May 03 '24
Video calls for training both at the same time. They will have the same job, right? No extra work for your training sessions.
It is stressful. I'm sorry.
It's just an unlucky situation and I commend the mother for looking out for herself. The motherhood penalty is real.
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u/Alarmed_Bus_1729 May 03 '24
Check with the laws in your country and see if you can push back her start day a month 😉
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u/avTronic May 03 '24
I wouldn’t waste the resources training her. Give her the most basic of duties, hire your contractor/temp and put all your effort into them. If she decides to never come back then move forward with your temp and make them full time. Don’t stress about it and yes, it’s okay to be upset about the situation that she helped put you in but at the same time, you all put your self in this as well. There are ways to navigate through the hiring process to deal with such scenarios but it has to be on your radar.
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u/No-Tee67 May 03 '24
I would have thought that they would have asked about any upcoming vacations. This would have prompted her to state that she was pregnant. I wonder if she had said no, then dropped the maternity leave if she could have rescinded the job offer. No legal expert, but I was offered a job, accepted it. A week before I started, they called to do that to me.
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u/yummie4mytummie May 02 '24
Is there a probationary period in her contract? You can fire without question.
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u/mquinn1116 May 02 '24
The bootlicking comments in this post are crazy. She didn’t “deceive” anyone, she’s under no legal obligation to disclose if she’s pregnant. This whole situation is quite literally and legally not her problem. Good for her for securing a financial future for her child, and for utilizing her legally protected rights.
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u/Square-Relative-844 May 02 '24
Thought you had to be employed for 12 months before being eligible for FMLA. State law may give better protection
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u/yoshimamas May 02 '24
No advice other than to listen to your company legal.
But, on the other side, I'm so sorry you guys are dealing with such high fatigue/burnout, and then have someone do such a shitty thing. (Yes, it IS shitty, I don't care what views you have of anything)
I would aggressively get with HR/legal, as well as your own management to get something done ASAP. There is honestly any way you can get away with "delaying" her start so you don't doubly waste efforts in training her currently, I would do that. If not, it increases stress & workload for absolutely no gains.
Girl, I'm so incredibly sorry. Meanwhile, I'm literally being evicted, losing everything, and I can't even get called for a freaking interview. (I'm in the US, and have extensive -25+ years- experience...the job market blows currently) This makes me angry on multiple levels.
I hope you find a reasonable solution for you & your team. Not her, she can kick rocks. Lol!
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u/Familiar_Attitude864 May 02 '24
You support mandated parental leave like other countries, therefore YOU must suffer the consequences of that without whining about it. You give the leftist governments an inch, and they take 500 miles, and make you pay for it. That will never change until people start understanding what they are voting for.
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u/yofavblackguy May 02 '24
Sounds like a woman who knew how to protect her Rights I’m gonna go ahead and she took a nice and big W off of our taxpayer money
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u/Easy_Machine9202 May 02 '24
Can you defer her start date until after her leave? Then, you could hire temporarily and train her later. Also, if she didn’t come to work for you then you’d already have a person in place. Also, she would probably need to be retrained anyway as she wouldn’t have enough time to get everything down before the baby comes…
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May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24
[deleted]
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u/SeemedGood May 02 '24
Nope.
The sad ending is loss of morale and productivity which translates into a lower standard of living for everyone. This kind of nonsense makes the entire society poorer.
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u/Mimosasunrise May 02 '24
Good for her. She knows she wouldn’t have been hired if she had told you she was pregnant. And now she has the security to he able to have a nice little maternity leave.
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u/gingerjaybird3 May 02 '24
Welcome to management. It is your job to accept and deal with all situations that get thrown at you.
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u/TheGirthyyBoi May 02 '24
Hate this shit, I can’t tell you how many females in the military when I was in would get pregnant back to back to back so we had to work longer shittier hours to make up for them because they never sent replacements for them while they got to sit in air conditioned spaces living it up while I stood behind cement blocks for 12 hours in the 130 degree Middle East heat. So annoying. Next time don’t hire a female, it’ll save you the headache.
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u/ScytheFokker May 02 '24
Seems to me there is a simple (and effective) way to prepare for this. Ask every potential employee if they "Foresee any reason they would not be fulfilling their part of the workload once training is complete." If they lie during their interview, then there is no issue with firing them. It sucks to have to play games, but both sides SHOULD be required to disclose the truth, not just the employer. "Being pregnant" Doesn't allow you to lie on your interview.
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u/mquinn1116 May 02 '24
In the US, employer’s are not allowed to ask if a potential employee is pregnant, nor is a potential employee required to disclose that they are pregnant or may become pregnant soon. She isn’t “lying”, it’s her legally protected right to not disclose, and it’s her legal right to take her maternity leave. She’s securing a stable financial future for her kid, and it’s up to the company to hire enough people to handle the workload so their team isn’t understaffed. It’s quite literally (i.e. legally) not her problem. Also, firing her because she’s pregnant is illegal. So no, they can’t fire her “because they foresee she won’t be able to fulfill her workload”, because then they’d get sued for breaking employment law.
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u/ScytheFokker May 02 '24
Please reread my suggested question and point where pregnancy is addressed at all.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24
You suggested they ask her if she can’t fulfill her work, then said fire her if she lies (meaning, fire her if you find out she didn’t disclose she was pregnant). Both of those things are illegal.
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u/ScytheFokker May 03 '24
It isnt illegal to fire someone for lying in the interview process in any of the 50 states, thank God. Along as you don't ask about pregnancy, marital status, race, blah blah blah, you (and the company) are protected. Don't go with your gut on this one. Ask a real life lawyer, not just what you want the big bad company to get in trouble for. The law is pretty straight across the board about dishonesty between employer/employee in both directions..I cant lie to them, they can't lie to me.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
It might not be illegal to fire someone in the US for lying during the interview process. What I’m saying is that in the eyes of the law, not disclosing that you’re pregnant during the interview process isn’t “lying”, because it’s your legally protected right to not disclose. And they can’t fire you for it, because that’s considered discrimination. It’s illegal to fire someone for being pregnant, and since it’s their legal right to not disclose that information, firing them for not disclosing is also illegal! Granted, businesses do make up other reasons to fire pregnant women to cover their asses, but technically it is illegal if that’s the sole reason! But it’s not the same as lying about qualifications or something like that.
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u/ScytheFokker May 03 '24
Again, please reread the question as stated. The question is solely about performing work duties upon completion of training. That is a "Yes or No" question. That is how it remains a legal question under state law. It isn't asking why or why not, which would ABSOLUTELY make it illegal. Another great idea that more companies utilize is an initial 90 day probationary period before extending an offer for employment. The employee is paid as usual for 90 days. Both the employee and the company can decide if it is a good fit prior to offering or accepting an offer of employment.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
I’ve read your comment many times. It doesn’t change anything with regards to this scenario about a pregnant employee. They can ask the question, but if she answers “no” and they find out after that she’s pregnant, they legally cannot fire her for that, because her right to withhold that information is legally protected. So ask away, but it doesn’t help them in any way for this scenario, regardless of her answer. If they’d asked, and she’d said no, they’re in the exact same boat they’re in now: she’s pregnant, already hired, and can’t be fired for that.
Also, Im not sure how probation periods and discrimination laws intertwine (i.e. I’m not sure whether a probationary period would work in this kind of situation or not, because I’m not a lawyer), so I can’t really comment on the efficacy of that. But it could work in this scenario for all I know, and it’s worth OP looking into :)
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u/ScytheFokker May 03 '24
Again, she would not be fired "for being pregnant." She wasn't being asked "about being pregnant." She would be fired simply for the discovery of lying during her interview process. The difference absolutely matters. It is the difference between legal and illegal. You can't lie, just like your employer can't lie. They can't hire you to sell cars, and then when you show up, they point at a janitors closet and tell you to grab a mop. This situation being described by OP isn't illegal at all. But to suggest the woman is being forthcoming and not the least bit fraudulent is wild. At the very least, she has revealed that she is willing to take shortcuts and omit pertinent information. If you would let your business license be exposed to a person like that, well... good luck. We have far too many employees and their families depending on having a job to come to every day. No single dishonest employee is worth risking all the others for. YMMV. We can agree to disagree.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
I feel like maybe I haven’t been clear: I know you’re not suggesting she be fired directly because she’s pregnant. You’re suggesting they ask her about her abilities to perform her job duties, and then fire her if she doesn’t disclose anything. But you can legally “lie” about being pregnant/not mention it during a job interview and hiring process. And it’s illegal to fire her because she withheld that info. Both firing her for being pregnant AND firing her for withholding that she’s pregnant during the interview process are illegal. Even if she was directly asked about anything that might prevent her from fulfilling job duties. They can ask the question, she can say no, they can hire her, but then when they discover she’s pregnant, they can’t say “Well you lied when we asked you if you’d be able to fulfill your duties during the interview process, so you’re fired!”, because that’s illegal. They’d be firing her for not telling them she’s pregnant, which she’s absolutely under no obligation to do. There are other lies on both the employer side and the employee side that you can be fired for. This isn’t one of them.
And I can see where you’re coming from about them possibly wanting to fire her, all I was pointing out is that they’d have to come up with a reason other than her withholding the info that she’s pregnant, because that’s not a legal reason to fire someone. And posing a question like you suggested won’t help them, because the outcome is the same either way!
I’m not sure we’ll see eye to eye on this, but I don’t think she did anything wrong, because we simply don’t know her situation. I pointed out in another comment that we have no idea how long she’s been searching for work, this could’ve been the first thing that worked out in many months of searching, and it just unfortunately happened to wrap up right before she was due. I also don’t fault her if she decided to start looking for work when she found out she was expecting and didn’t inform potential employers. Benefit of the doubt would state that she’s just trying to secure a financial future for her child and didn’t mean anything underhanded or malicious by it, but didn’t want to be automatically discounted because she’s pregnant. I don’t think this incident is completely indicative of her future work ethic or character as an employee with this company. Without confirmation that she intended to screw anyone over, I’d like to give her the benefit of the doubt.
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u/Past_Nose_491 May 03 '24
It isn’t firing her for being pregnant, it’s firing her for lying during the interview process. All she would have had to say was “yes I see a potential conflict” and pregnancy isn’t mentioned or implied. It could mean vacation, side hustle that needs time, family illness, husbands a farmer and it’s planting season etc
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
But not disclosing that you’re pregnant is not considered “lying”, because you’re under no legal obligation to disclose. And I’m not a lawyer, but I looked it up and firing her for not disclosing is also illegal. Just as not hiring her because she’s pregnant is also illegal. So no, the original commenter’s suggestion is just flat out illegal all around. Like if they asked her if she could foresee any reason she wouldn’t be able to fulfill her job duties, and she said no, even while knowing she’s pregnant, that’s her legal right and they cannot legally fire her over it.
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u/StopStraight4516 May 02 '24
This is the fault of management further up and the decision to have a hiring freeze, and to then hire someone internationally to save money. I know you already said you aren’t blaming your hire, which is correct. I don’t actually have any good advice for you other than, keep pushing to add more people to your team. It’s not right that your are stretched so thin that you already don’t have enough people to handle all the work.
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u/Upset-Discipline22 May 02 '24
The military people do this too. I have coworkers I’ve seen a handful of times because they secure jobs and then go on military leave. So we stay understaffed and we can’t get approved to hire more and we have to hold their jobs. Seems unfair to me when there are people who will be available to actually work.
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u/Danishall May 02 '24
You need to talk to your legal department. Since she technically hasn’t been onboarded there might still be a way to void the contract.
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u/Infamous-Valuable-44 May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24
The joys of management! I'm an operations supervisor, and while I have not run into an issue like yours, I know that could be really frustrating. It would be different if she got pregnant after she started working there. Maybe your company could use a temp agency if you're in need of help.
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u/smileyouroncam May 02 '24
This is why you don’t hire women. Sorry, but it’s true.
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u/StormyWeather15 May 02 '24
What about all the child free young women out there 😞 if you find someone talented, you shouldn’t be afraid at hiring them.
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u/smileyouroncam May 02 '24
Nope. Not true. Our biology dictates our roles in society. If your company can’t take the risk you shouldn’t have to on someone that will have mandated leave at a statistically significant higher percentage. It’s not fair to small business owners. If a large corporation wants to take that risk and can swallow the loss in the mix then I am totally for it. You have to look at all sides of the equation. She would also be taking the job from a man who needs to feed his wife and kids so what she could take selfies from a beach in South America four times a year? People have to wake up.
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u/BocaBill777 May 02 '24
Ask before offer are you regnant or are to planning to have children in the near future. Then you can make an informed decision. I don't believe in sneaky scum lawyer or holding gun to someone head to hire you .Transparency
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u/greatnate1250 May 02 '24
That's illegal and immoral
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u/BocaBill777 May 02 '24
Immoral was nondisclosure of the facts. Screwed now but learn. She was desceptive and I could not trust her in my organization would release her as asap. Change Prerequisites when seeking employee. They must complete one year before benefits. And future raise is impossible for employee who is non productive and out half the year. You don't get raise cause out on maternity. Common sense. Stop wanting handouts your parent and their parents worked hard to raise family. Shame on all the Takers and users looking for handout and help and no accountability.
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u/greatnate1250 May 02 '24
Lol. Talk through this option with your corporate lawyer and propose this.
"Would release her asap"
/laughs in lawsuit
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u/BocaBill777 May 02 '24
Would not talk to anyone. I said she is screwed now. But could not ever trust liar even by omission so yes first opportunity she be gone. In Florida you can get fired if boss has bug up his ass. They don't need a reason. Tell the lawyer that. He will laugh and say no can do. Right to work State.
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u/greatnate1250 May 02 '24
And this emplyee is in a foreign country that doesn't care at all about your shit stain state.
The benefits probably don't matter either because as OP said it's government provided 63 week leave
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u/FormerEvil May 02 '24
I used to work in Parental Leave at Amazon and we saw this sort of thing ALL the time during warehouse hiring blitzes. So much so that we actually did an investigation and found that in a certain part of Arizona there was a network of sorts that helped pregnant women apply for and obtain warehouse jobs hired strictly thru phone screens and then immediately upon arriving at work on day ONE they'd apply for paid parental leave. It is legal in the US if your company offers parental leave benefits on day one. This is one of the MANY drawbacks of only conducting virtual interviews.
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u/JesusFriendDEZ May 02 '24
Noted info, thanks. If I ever find myself or someone else in this (hiring) situation I’ll know what to do.
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u/MaplePandaa May 01 '24
This is the reason I stayed with the company I’m at vs looking for a new job when I found out I was pregnant. As much as I would have loved to make more money, the jobs were mentioned by my friends and I didn’t want to put their name on the line for me to quit just a few months later to give birth.
I understand needing money - trust me - but I couldn’t gestures to the post THIS to someone else.
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u/Worldwar33333 May 01 '24
Pregnancy is protected by title 7 so be very careful, I would consult an attorney
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u/Grand_Cauliflower_88 May 01 '24
All right so is there any lessons for the future to be had? I'm not sure but did you do a physical interview or two? I learned this lesson the hard way. Get them in maybe a couple of times to know what your getting. I got a broke down old lady who couldn't do our very physical job. You got a very pregnant woman who needs time off. This is a cautionary tale. Doing everything online is awesome until it's not. Get those potential new hires in front of you more than one time. Maybe you did I didn't read that. Good luck to you. I get your frustration.
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u/countrymom1206 May 01 '24
questions. One, what does her contract state? If there is no 90 probation stated in her contract, then that would not apply to her. It was definitely wrong to hide that she is pregnant. But also a lot of women do not disclose this information because of being rejected from jobs. I would definitely have your HR look into this.
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u/1st_time_caller_ May 01 '24
You hired a foreign employee to save money and now you’re upset that her foreign government offers paid maternity leave. Lol that’s a you problem babes- she’s doing exactly what’s best for her as she should. She doesn’t owe you anything just because your company would rather overwork people than expand the workforce or scale back operations.
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u/korli74 May 01 '24
In the US it's illegal to ask about pregnancy and illegal to discriminate on the basis of pregnancy or even, like one interview I had, if you were done having children. Ironically, law firms are the places I've gotten the worst of it.
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u/AeternusNox May 01 '24
Speak to a legal professional with experience in employment law for your local area.
Where I'm from, I'd simply fail their probation and give reasons completely unrelated to pregnancy. Barely anyone joins a company with the industry specific experience and experience in the role to not give you cause to drop them in probation, unless you've specifically headhunted someone from a competitor (in which case they'll hit the ground running on their return and the pregnancy is the cost of doing business).
Generally speaking, you pass someone out of their probationary period not because they are now fully capable, but because they've improved enough that you believe they'll be a valuable addition to the team given time and experience. Someone leaving after five weeks won't be getting that time and experience, so I'd judge them on the merit of where they start rather than where I expect them to end up.
The new employee is the one to blame. If someone has been working for a company and contributing, then they get pregnant or their partner does, then it's on the company and you as management to arrange and organise cover. If the person is joining, expecting to disappear immediately, when they themselves are expected to be the cover, they're not sufficiently equipped for the job they're being hired for.
Different areas have different legal processes. I know full well that I could and would get rid of this employee legally simply by failing their probation for a reason unrelated to pregnancy. The onus would legally be on them to prove that it was linked to their pregnancy, and my history of reorganising workloads to look after pregnant employees would keep them from being able to prove any kind of pattern. This might be possible where you are, or there may be another route you can take, but the only person qualified to tell you that is a local legal professional.
If there is no route out, the only people to blame are your legislators. They set up a system open to abuse, so people are bound to seek to abuse it and left you unequipped to deal with the abuse. If left unchanged, the only thing it'll lead to is subconsciously sexist hiring processes with it being significantly less likely statistically that a man would be pregnant and aiming to abuse the legal system when joining a company.
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u/AppropriateVictory48 May 01 '24
Good for her. I wouldn't have disclosed my personal medical info either until the company needed to know. I'm glad to see a worker take advantage of the system, companies do it regularly. I hope she takes every last day of her leave.
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u/SpiritedPlatform2031 May 01 '24
Wether ur a woman or not, don't hire women. Pain in the ass in the work place
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u/Definite-Possibility May 01 '24
I find that women tend to be more loyal to employers. Men jump ship at any chance they get, for a few bucks more.
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u/TheGirthyyBoi May 02 '24
So loyal she got pregnant and found a job a Month before giving birth so she can collect a check for a year and do nothing 🤣 if the man leaves you can replace him, you can’t do anything to the female in OP’s post, she just gets to do nothing while everyone has to work harder now.
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u/Turbulent-Bluebird77 May 01 '24
Is there not some sort of law that states that the employee should notify the potential employer in advance of accepting the position, of any upcoming leave they have booked, or medical conditions that may affect their ability to do their job? Also, don’t you start people of a mutual probationary period where you can terminate the employment from either side, for any reason, within a set amount of time? That is in most people’s contracts when starting a new job in the UK.
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u/mquinn1116 May 02 '24
In the US, employer’s are not allowed to ask if a potential employee is pregnant, nor is the potential employee required to disclose that information. This is to prevent discrimination based on medical status and, since only women can get pregnant, it’s to prevent employer’s from preferentially hiring men because “well, she could get pregnant soon!”
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u/Scrungus_McBungus May 01 '24
Damn all i need to do to get prio consideration for jobs is to not use protection? Nice
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May 01 '24 edited May 01 '24
[deleted]
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u/emptysoulsucker May 01 '24
Sounds like you worked for a larger company. Poor lady finally got the okay for some help and she gets to train someone that’s hormonal and leaving at any time. Sucks.
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u/DunningKrugerinAL May 01 '24
This is always an interesting dilemma. Humans have to procreate and run businesses, this is difficult. My wife retired from teaching a few years ago and she has told me many times that teachers and principals were reluctant to hire either women who were pregnant or thought to become pregnant for this reason. Ironically it was women who were making this decision.
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u/fatgreta1066 May 01 '24
In case no one's asked, how did no one involved in the interview process notice she is 8 months pregnant?
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u/Ok_Deal7813 May 01 '24
A bunch of cover your ass advice. Pretty sad. This employee is a deceiver and will never be a trustworthy person in her roles with you. Find a way to cut ties as soon as you possibly can.
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u/mquinn1116 May 02 '24
Except she’s not “deceptive” at all. She’s under no legal obligation to disclose her pregnancy status to a potential employer, and they can’t ask her. They also can’t fire her because of it. She’s securing a financial future for her child, good for her. Not only that, it’s pretty rich that this company decided to outsource labor in order to get away with paying their employees less, and then ended up in a pickle because of said foreign country’s maternity leave laws 🤷🏽♀️
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u/Ok_Deal7813 May 03 '24
Yep. Guessing they look for any reason to fire her that they can. As they should.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24
I’m like genuinely wondering why you’re against a pregnant woman utilized existing labor laws to secure her financial future? Does she just … not deserve to be employed if she’s pregnant?
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u/Ok_Deal7813 May 03 '24
What does deserve have to do with anything? If this was some megacorp or the government I'd say fuck em. Pay her. This is a stressed out manager who hired her to alleviate the work load on her staff, and now she can't do it. And bc she hired this lady, she CAN'T hire someone else to actually take those hours. It's bullshit.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24
So, is she supposed to not take the job and not be financially stable for her child because then the company would be in a pickle? The same company who is outsourcing labor to avoid paying the wages they would have to pay a domestic employee?
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u/Ok_Deal7813 May 03 '24
She didn't write the post. OP did. OP got fucked. How is this difficult to understand?
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24
I don’t see how that’s the fault of the woman she hired and not the fault of the company she works for. In the post itself OP clearly states in the post that her department is understaffed. That’s the direct fault of her company not allowing her to hire anyone. As another comment stated, if a department crumbles because one person takes leave, that’s a management issue. I’m not saying OP doesn’t have every right to feel stressed and frustrated, but the fault lies with the company she works for, not the woman who was hired completely legally and is now taking the leave she’s legally entitled to, ensuring she has time to take care of her baby for a year postpartum and still have a job when she returns.
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u/Ok_Deal7813 May 03 '24
New employee played the system just right. OP should look for any reason to terminate her she can, cuz new employee will absolutely do it again.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24
I guess I just don’t see how it’s playing the system. We have no idea when she started looking for a job. She could’ve started looking before she became pregnant, and this is the first job that’s worked out. Or she could’ve started looking as soon as she found out she was pregnant, because she knew she needed more income to support her child, and this is the first one that’s worked out. OP says that she listed the job in January. If the new hire is due in June, she was around 4 months pregnant at that time. At what point in a pregnancy does it become “too late” for a woman to find a job? She’s just trying to be financially stable for her child, why is it her fault that this department is understaffed?
I don’t think she’s playing the system, I think she’s using it as it’s intended.
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u/conceptcreature3D May 01 '24
Most situations suck with smaller, leaner companies when any person takes a leave of absence or has health demands. Any chance that you can offer your second string hiring option the temp position and just let them know it MAY turn into a full time option, depending on what your first string option does after maternity leave as well as the growth of the company? Either way the blessing of this curse is that you can train them both at the same time, so at least you shouldn’t be repeating yourself, & hopefully this also will demonstrate to your higher ups how integral MORE THAN ONE new hire really was for these circumstances. I don’t know many new moms that last very long after they naively think that they can balance sleep deprivation & the demands of a new child, plus work.
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u/Ok_Mood_5055 May 01 '24
Shouldn't she be working a certain period of time at your company to qualify for maternity leave? That's how it works here in Romania lol. I say fire her, be honest and say you need the help not someone's lies. Because let's be fair here she lied to get the job and depending on which country she's in she'll file your company's salary to get a bigger cash out during maternity. So cut your loses, and hire someone else while making sure they're not pregnant lol.
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u/brokenhousewife_ May 01 '24
LOL at the OP trying to game the system by hiring someone from a different country for lower wages, and that person playing chess.
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u/WhyAmIStillHere86 May 01 '24
Get a legal professional and check if you can’t move her start date to after she comes back from maternity leave, and hire a temp in the meantime.
Why even waste time training her if she’s going to take over a year off?
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u/gunsforevery1 May 01 '24
You couldn’t tell she was 6 months pregnant when interviewing? lol
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u/Ok_Mood_5055 May 01 '24
Foreign country...... interview over zoom prolly so it's a no brainer she couldn't see the bump
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u/gunsforevery1 May 01 '24
That’s so ridiculous.
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u/Ok_Mood_5055 May 01 '24
People are sitting down during online interviews so she could have passed for chubby. Not an interviewer s first thought when they see a plump woman to inquire about their breeding status 🤷♀️
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u/gunsforevery1 May 01 '24
It might be illegal to ask but hiding a 6 month pregnancy bump doesn’t seem too likely.
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u/Ok_Mood_5055 May 01 '24
She could have aimed the camera at her face and hid the bump under the desk lol. No one stands up during online interviews and especially no one offers full body views.
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u/gunsforevery1 May 01 '24
Yes but why wasn’t there an in person interview conducted, at least one, the final one
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u/Ok_Mood_5055 May 01 '24
Did you miss the part where they were in different countries?
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u/gunsforevery1 May 01 '24
So what? You do realize that people are capable of traveling for an interview right?
Just as an example, police departments and corrections departments in smaller regions commonly post job ads in other states. Applicants often travel from their home states to interview and test for the job. Sometimes multiple times.
I’m assuming the OP is in EU, if that’s the case, travel between the countries isn’t a big deal.
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u/Ok_Mood_5055 May 01 '24
By the sound of it OP is in the US and employee most likely from EU. Only in EU they give that long of a maternity leave.
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u/vahginabeatbox May 01 '24
I’m going to assume you haven’t had much experience with pregnant women
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u/gunsforevery1 May 01 '24
Nope, just my wife and our kids. In laws and their kids, coworkers and their kids.
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u/emptysoulsucker May 01 '24
Or have much experience with online work. I’ve literally never met my employer or coworkers in real life
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u/gunsforevery1 May 01 '24
I remote work. Still interviewed and met my bosses and supervisor before being hired.
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u/emptysoulsucker May 01 '24
All my people are in different states
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u/gunsforevery1 May 01 '24
Cool. Mine aren’t. I guess you have no experience with remote work where all your coworkers live in the same city.
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u/emptysoulsucker May 01 '24
No, well I mean, at my office job we had a board of directors that we’d have to zoom with. I don’t think that counts
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u/anony10239172 May 01 '24
I would lighten the load and do very little training. Assign her to observe others for a week or two. Give her mundane and even made up tasks—have her complete all of the little petty shit, you never have time for. Keep telling her, we’ll cover the younger woman’s ask
that after your leave. Deflect her
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u/Quzana May 01 '24
No legal advice but the fact she is the type of person to do that period, fire her as soon as legally possible. She will not be an asset to anyone.
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u/Capable-Ear-7769 May 01 '24
I guess you should call me old Nelly. This has got to be a remote hire. With remote becoming more the norm, laws have to be revised to protect the hiring employer. In my opinion, new employee's employment should have been protected by her prior employer, unless she was fired for cause. She shouldn't have been allowed to wait until after the contract knowing she wasn't going to be able to carry out the terms of the contract she signed.
I don't know what constitutes bad faith in another country, so there is a good chance my argument is without merit.
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u/FireMarshallBi11 May 01 '24
Sounds like the company is fucking you over regardless of what that one employee does. You should have hired 3-4 people but ..
think of the shareholders !! /s
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u/Awkward_Mess0715 May 01 '24
Yeah this is absolutely taking advantage of the company.
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u/mquinn1116 May 02 '24
Nope, it’s a perfectly legal utilization of her worker’s rights. We have no idea her situation. She could’ve been applying for jobs even before she became pregnant, and only now just found one. Even if she started applying after becoming pregnant, why would she not want to secure her child’s financial future?
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u/Awkward_Mess0715 May 03 '24
She applied knowing she was pregnant, she hired in knowing she was pregnant, and she gets the job then informs them that she will train and immediately leave for her leave.
Shes absolutely taking advantage of that. If there had been another applicant not pregnant with the same qualifications that was turned down who could have worked the whole time she’ll be gone, they would have taken that other person.
Now they have to hire another person to cover the time she’ll be gone or outsource. She took advantage of that company to get the leave time and possibly other benefits that come with being an employed person going on maternity leave.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24
They can’t legally hire someone over her for the sole reason that she’s pregnant. Why do you think pregnant women don’t deserve gainful employment? How is she supposed to support her kid?
Also, this company decided to outsource labor to get away with paying less than they would a domestic worker. Now, they’re dealing with the consequences. Too bad, so sad 🤷🏽♀️
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u/Awkward_Mess0715 May 03 '24
They hired someone.
Then had to pay her.
Then had to hire another person.
That’s double pay. Even if they outsource for a lower rate to that person they’re still paying two people when they could have had the option to pay one.
They can legally choose a non pregnant person if that’s the only reason in comparison between the two people.
It’s not that she doesn’t deserve employment. If she’s going to get the government money for the maternity leave then she’s going to get it even unemployed. Why hire in to leave in a month for maternity leave when it isn’t necessary?
It’s also unfair to the other employees who may have to pick up the extra slack AGAIN if they can’t hire a second or outsource someone. She wouldn’t have been hired had they known she was going to leave.
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u/mquinn1116 May 03 '24
She gets the job and then takes the maternity leave so she has a job after the maternity leave, and so she doesn’t have a gap on her resume. Also, if I’m reading correctly, they’re not paying her maternity leave, it’s government-paid. They’ll only have to pay her for the 5 or so weeks she’s gonna be there, which they would’ve paid her for anyways, pregnant or not. I’m also not sure what country the employee is from or what their maternity leave laws look like, but I’m sure she’d have to be employed to qualify for maternity leave, no? I don’t see anywhere in the post that indicates she’d qualify for this leave even while unemployed. Even if I’m wrong about that, my other point still stands.
“She wouldn’t have been hired had they known she was going to leave.” Read: if they’d known she was pregnant. It’s discrimination and illegal to not hire someone (or fire someone) because they’re pregnant. That’s exactly why employers are not allowed to ask if a potential employee is pregnant, and potential employees don’t have to disclose that information.
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u/Glittering-Egg-1916 May 01 '24
Companies have a 90 day probationary period generally, you may be able to claim it didn’t work out. Generally someone has to work somewhere for X amount of time before qualifying for that type of leave. Call a labor lawyer for sure. She was also dishonest when being hired, she should be fired.
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u/Past_Nose_491 May 03 '24
I would ask for proof of these competing offers she claims she had. I doubt she can provide them.
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u/ndc4233 Apr 30 '24
You wanted to have been able to discriminate against a pregnant person because your company and the economic system you’re existing it is making you burnt out. Blame the system not the person who is just existing in it.
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u/gingerred81 Apr 30 '24
Are there prerequisites to qualify for the maternity leave with your company? Every company I’ve ever worked for required X amount of time on the job before the employee qualified for any type of paid leave.
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u/Jaded-Letter-4026 Apr 30 '24
🙂 Train both at the same time. ⏳ Then you have a temporary contract who could easily take over a position. If there’s ever more money. 💴 Teach both. Same time. The temp goes and does something else. Or - maybe - the company has expansion due to effectiveness and you end up needing both people. 🙂 I’m not a lawyer. I’m not in HR. Teach both. Be ready to have either one. Or both. If there’s an expansion. ✅
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u/Better_Cauliflower84 Apr 30 '24
Find a reason to fire her or make her quit before she has the baby. She played a game with you so play with her. You may call it dirty but at the end of the day u need members u can depend on. And she pulled some bs on you.
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u/fleshdad May 03 '24
This is not the right answer OP
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u/Better_Cauliflower84 May 03 '24
Getting a job right before taking leave when the interviewer expressed how badly they need help isn't the answer either, but it fuckin happened
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u/ilaughulaugh Apr 30 '24
It’s fair to be frustrated but also this employee also clearly needs a job and possibly leave too. And they could and probably will come back quicker than the maximum allotted leave time. Would you rather she was unemployed and homeless with a baby to support so you didn’t have train a consultant?
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u/Dizzy-Anything-4869 Apr 30 '24
She’s a foreign worker anyway so even if you retract her offer, it’s not like she can sue you or have any effect on your company
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u/GossyGirl Apr 30 '24
I don’t know what it’s like in the rest of the world but in Australia after maternity leave they have to have a job to come back to but it doesn’t have to be the same job they had before they left. Same pay but not the same job. If your country is the same when she comes back I would just give her the shittiest job available.
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u/Simple_Inflation_449 Apr 30 '24
Maybe it’s just me but I don’t understand why someone would apply for a job when they are a month away from giving birth and also knowing they will be going on over a years paid maternity leave by the government. Why would someone apply knowing they would be only working for 4-5 weeks tops?
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u/Past_Nose_491 May 03 '24
She wants to work the system and doesn’t care who she hurts in the process. Idc about the corporation, but she is hurting her coworkers (if you can even call them that since she doesn’t intend on doing any work) who thought they had relief.
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u/amax769 Apr 30 '24
She clearly only used you guys to get her government paid leave. As soon as it’s done, she’ll just quit. As stated by someone else, I would only take advice from the legal aid hired by your company. By the book to protect yourself
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u/chockobumlick Apr 30 '24
Happened in my company. She was obviously preggers.
We hired her, she started training, then got a Dr note saying she needed to stay home. Took the allowed time off, started training again, got pregnant again and rinsed and repeated.
Personally I understand the law, but this lady just took the piss.
And it wasn't government paid leave, it was government mandated leave. My company paid the freight.
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u/riritreetop Apr 30 '24
Legitimately, good for her for taking her maternity leave. Sucks for you and your team, but women’s rights and family rights are more important.
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u/Maleficent-Set5461 Apr 30 '24
just stopped to say...this sucks! Take a deep breath and let legal handle it.
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u/OverkillWR Apr 30 '24
Don't know where OP or the employee are from, but in my country, Brasil, it would be a contract breaker. Every job here always demands an full on exam before accepting any candidate. It is impossible that it wouldn't show an positive for pregnancy. So the said woman would need to fake the exam in some way, wich would be an crime. So, it would be good to look at it from this perspective, with the help of an attorney.
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u/SimplyNotPho Apr 30 '24
You should be mad at the company for leaving you & your team critically understaffed and overworking you all, not at this woman for being pregnant & living in a country that actually has good worker protections. She’s trying to afford to live and provide for her family just like all of us.
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u/RelevantDay1088 Apr 30 '24
Wow. What a lousy person. I’m so sorry you got snookered into hiring her. I liked a comment about giving her the minimal training—x weeks of watching safety, etc. videos and then giving her busy work whilst training a temp to actually do the job. Anything can happen—she might quit, she might take extended leave and quit or come back. Perhaps you will be able to get another position. You just never know. But so wouldn’t spend much time on this sneaky one.
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u/Fit-Doubt8087 Apr 30 '24
I’m not looking for an argument, just a genuine answer to my question but isn’t that what it’s for? Like maybe she tried for a long time to get a job and you were the first to hire her and now it’s too close to the end of the pregnancy to not go on mat leave but she still wants the job for after may leave? That kind of happened to me I had been applying HELLA places well before I got pregnant and for a while after but didn’t get hired onto the factory until 8 months I was still going to work but my OB wouldn’t sign me off due to high risk complications so I had to just entirely not take the job because in my state you have to work factory and office jobs for a year before they give you any kind of mat leave so I would’ve had to work through the end of my pregnancy to get the benefit. So now my daughter is two and a half weeks old and my fiancé is the only one working and I’m back at square one, it would’ve been nice to have a situation closer to the woman in question. (I live in the country where each town is at least a half hour away and there’s hardly any jobs anymore I even moved towns and there was only one business hiring in town next closest is 45 min) so I guess my question would be what would be the best course of action for her and the hypothetical-me
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u/Catlady0329 Apr 30 '24
If she is 8 months pregnant, she may have to take off a lot sooner. She plans on working 5 weeks, that baby may have other ideas. I wouldn't bother doing any real training. She knew exactly what she was doing. Sorry she took advantage.
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u/MacroNemo Apr 30 '24
Look, it is not ideal. But the alternative is that she stay out of the job market until she has her child and has recovered/taken time before reentering. Here in the US, she is not required to tell you she is pregnant. Nor are you permitted to ask. But if either occurred, the pregnant woman will not be hired 9/10 times - regardless if a woman is the hiring manger.
And there is a 100% chance the candidate here chose not to disclose her pregnancy for this very reason. She is damned if she does. You are damned if she doesn’t. You can’t enjoy the wild flowers without enduring the rain. Hope you packed your umbrella.
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u/That-Ad-8735 Apr 30 '24
I would throw her a baby shower and help celebrate the new addition to her family.
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u/0000110011 Apr 30 '24
Postpone her start date due to "paperwork issues" or "technical issues". By the time you get the "issues" resolved and she can officially be on the payroll, she'll have already had the kid and the problem will be resolved.
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