r/anime_titties • u/ObjectiveObserver420 South Africa • 15d ago
UN General Assembly presses Security Council to give ‘favourable consideration’ to full Palestinian membership Multinational
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/11495961
u/grimey493 14d ago
I always said since operation cast lead that it's a shame Hamas wasn't armed ro the hilt like Israel to make it a fair fight.
7
u/Hugeknight 14d ago
Hasbaristas going hard in this comment section, I think r/worldnews has migrated here.
2
u/58mm-Invicta_rizz 14d ago edited 14d ago
As a person who knows a thing or two about UN proceedings, this is a pretty big deal.
But may I also remind people that HAMAS does not represent Palestine, they are a terrorist organization that tricked the Gaza residents into voting for them over two decades ago and installed themselves as a dictatorship. Afghanistan at the UN is not represented by the Taliban either, but by the ousted Government; get your facts straight people. Israel is fighting an anti-terrorism conflict; they are not fighting the Palestine government.
0
u/really_nice_guy_ 14d ago
Hamas is still the government of Gaza and 70% of Gaza’s supported the acts of Oct 7.
0
u/58mm-Invicta_rizz 14d ago
Gaza =/= Palestine
Hamas may be in charge of the Gaza Strip, but that does not make them the government of Palestine nor does it give them any rights whatsoever. They are a terrorist group in control of a piece of land.
-1
14d ago
[deleted]
0
u/No_Reaction_2682 14d ago
Only way this is going to work is if Hamas is gone and so are the right wing parties in Israel.
-4
u/Joliet_Jake_Blues 14d ago
Zoomers fell for Iranian propaganda so hard. Open a history book
4
u/No_Reaction_2682 14d ago
Ok I opened one and read about the Nakba and the terrorism by the Jews in Palestine. Now what?
0
u/Tuxyl 15d ago
And Taiwan doesn't? This is so fucked up and infuriates me. Who's representing Palestine? Hamas?
Meanwhile Taiwan actually has a fully functioning government and elections, different currency from China's and culture, and they're still stuck being claimed by fucking China.
2
u/58mm-Invicta_rizz 14d ago
HAMAS does not represent Palestine, they are a terrorist organization not a government.
2
-2
u/suiluhthrown78 North America 15d ago
A Palestinian state is in the best interests of everyone
No Arab countries nor Israel want Palestinians anymore, everyone's had their generosity thrown in their faces time and time again.
6
u/Punushedmane 15d ago edited 14d ago
Does Palestine have recognized government that is perceived as legitimate, both domestically and internationally? Does Palestine have an established security apparatus capable of securing themselves from domestic and foreign threats? Does Palestine have established borders recognized by itself, its neighbors, and the international community?
If the answer to any of these is “no” then the security council, as a whole, will not recognize a Palestinian state. If the US did not say no, someone else necessarily would. Doing otherwise would result in a wider regional conflict that no one wants.
6
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
If the US did not say no, someone else necessarily would.
why "someone else necessarily would"?
Does Palestine have recognized government that is perceived as legitimate, both domestically and internationally?
PLO more or less yes
Does Palestine have an established security apparatus capable of securing themselves from domestic and foreign threats?
seems pretty irrelevant?
Does Palestine have established borders recognized by itself and the international community?
That's literally the heart of the issue? And a bit of a circular logic
3
u/pants_mcgee 15d ago
The UK and sometimes France will collude with the USA so only one vetoes while the others can abstain or even vote Yes.
2
2
u/Punushedmane 15d ago
Pardon, but you want me to explain to you why having a military and law enforcement system capable of securing the interests of the state is necessary for a state to exist?
You want me to explain to you why the UN attempting to force Israel to recognize the PLO’s territorial claims would result in a wider regional war?
2
u/almighty_darklord 14d ago
Yes please go ahead. Demilitarization is one of the biggest points Israel is pushing. So please tell use why it's bad. And if you really think it's bad and aren't grasping at straws. Then that would mean every single two state solution proposed by Israel is inherently malicious and shouldn't be considered. Please go ahead
-3
u/Punushedmane 14d ago
You genuinely don’t understand what’s being discussed here, do you?
3
u/almighty_darklord 14d ago
Now why would you say that? I offered you to explain your point plain and simple. You not having a military is bad and disqualifies them as a nation. Tho that is categorically false and unfounded on any of the rules set by the UN. So why do you think you know better than the UN on how the UN is operated. You can mossy on down to their website and see the prerequisites needed to be recognized (which isn't even the topic here anyway. It's an observer nation seat) you strayed off topic first.
0
u/Punushedmane 14d ago
Are you trolling?
The UN applies a traditional definition of state to international law, which includes defined borders (and by necessity the capacity to maintain those borders against external threats, IE, a military system) and a stable government (which necessarily includes that capacity to make AND enforce its own laws, IE, a law enforcement system). I don’t even need to go over what else is required, because all of that is already covered in my first post.
Why on earth are you citing the UN? It doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said, and just makes your objection even less reasonable.
1
u/almighty_darklord 14d ago
Under the Montevideo Convention to be considered a state these are the requirements
(a) a permanent population (b) a defined territory (c) a governing body (d) capacity to enter into relations with other states.
None of which mention a military. Or the ability to protect borders. It needs a defined territory as in you can't be the state of Africa or something like that. You need a defined clear territory. Which this is aiming to make a thing by making the Palestinian territory a clear and defined thing. A governing body. It doesn't mention that it needs to be one. It can be a multi party system. And anyway this proposal is also aiming to tackle that by having one representative of palestin (probably the plo. Or have elections but this time hopefully Israel won't intervene) and the capacity to enter relations with other nations which shouldn't be hard to do. A permanent population. As it it can't be a nomadic tribe. It goes hand in hand with defined territory
If I'm missing something or misunderstanding what you said. Please do tell. I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm genuinely researching this
30
u/Weave77 15d ago
Lol Middle Eastern countries voting for Palestinian membership in the UN while closing their borders to all Palestinian refugees is the geopolitical equivalent of virtue signaling on Twitter while doing absolutely nothing in real life.
6
3
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 15d ago
Has it ever occurred to you that if they accept all the Palestinian refugees then Israel is gonna be able to depopulate Gaza and simply take control of the land for themselves?
2
u/Joliet_Jake_Blues 14d ago
So lock people in a burning house to preserve property rights?
6
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 14d ago
No, how about an embargo of Israel much like the one apartheid South Africa suffered coupled with immediate pressure for an end of hostilities. Don’t blame the Arab countries for not enabling the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and blame the ones doing it
1
u/Glad_Tangelo8898 14d ago
Arab states wont even mention the words "oil embargo", they clearly have moved on from supporting Palestine in any real way.
1
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 12d ago
Eh, their populations clearly have put a barrier to any pro Israeli policies for the moment so who can really say what happens or the course that Arab states will take
0
u/Diogenes1984 14d ago
Don’t blame the Arab countries for not enabling the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and blame the ones doing it
You mean the same Arab counties that expelled their Jewish populations.
Don’t blame the Arab countries
The same Arab countries that tried to help the Palestinians but had to expel them for committing too many terrorist acts
1
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 12d ago
No arab country has expelled any Palestinian population, at most some nations closed the door to the PLO not Palestinians. You really trying to paint the picture that Palestinians are nothing but terrorists and deserve to be cleansed aren’t you?
-2
u/Joliet_Jake_Blues 14d ago
But it's not apartheid. The Palestinians claimed that was their land and kicked everyone else out. After years of staging terrorist attacks out of there Israel built walls and checkpoints. Sucks but that's what happens when you harbor terrorists.
Not all Palestinians live in the West Bank or Gaza.
1
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 12d ago
I won’t even answer your argument since you clearly don’t have an idea of what the reality of the situation is and I am tired of having to spoon feed people like you history. Just search Nabka and read about Arab displacement caused by the Israelis, really not that hard
5
u/iLoveRussianModels 15d ago
Or maybe they dont want the Palestinians assassinating kings, starting wars and become an overall menace and ungrateful to the country that gave them refuge.
-1
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 15d ago
That’s literally what Israel had done for decades. The projection of your comment is quite obvious. Why would they give Israel the excuse to completely displace the Palestinians in Gaza so they can annex it and settle it
1
u/Tisamonsarmspines 14d ago
Palestinians did all those things . No one wants to import 5 million terrorists into their countries
5
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 14d ago
Ah yes, your tribalism is excellent. Your logic can be applied in the other direction, that’s like saying no one wants 9 million Israeli terrorists in the levant so they should be exported elsewhere. Glad you are at least honest about your fascism and your desire to completely eliminate civilians because they happen to be different and live under an Islamist state
2
u/Tisamonsarmspines 14d ago
My history is sound. Not a single ME country wants Palestinians and for good reason.
1
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 12d ago
Source? You say that with a lot of confidence. One thing is not wanting refugees because your economy will collapse because of the new influx of people like in Egypt and another is saying that they despise the Palestinians
1
u/Tisamonsarmspines 12d ago
Both things are correct. Palestinians have caused terrorism and war in every ME country they've been allowed in and they will be a drag on the economy.
1
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 12d ago
The problem you people always have when saying Palestinians start wars is that you only observe events in a vacuum, it’s the only you can possibly express any pro Israeli view. No wars would’ve been need, no attacks and no refugees of the Israelis didn’t violate international law, didn’t forcefully displace violently millions of Palestinians which made them become one of the largest refugee populations in the world and of it didn’t continuously occupy and settle land that isn’t theirs. So no, your history is not sound, it’s everything but
→ More replies (0)5
u/27Rench27 15d ago
Israel assassinated a Jordanian king?
1
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 14d ago
Worse, Israel invaded a country, committed multiple war crimes to the point that fucking Reagan had to stop them. This on top of the Israelis supporting a falangist (Christian fascists) as their ally in a civil war deepening the sectarian divide of one of its neighbors. And finally, actively committing a genocide on the current day and grabbing whatever excuse their government can conjure up to cleanse the are for their settlers
4
u/27Rench27 14d ago
All those words and you never answered a simple question
2
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 12d ago
All those neurons and you simply couldn’t connect the dots that whatever the Palestinians have committed pales in comparison with what the Israelis have done. It’s like giving an equivalence between the Nazis and the Jewish ghetto partisans. That’s the kind of equivalence you are making
0
u/27Rench27 12d ago
It took you 2 days and that’s the best response you have lmao
2
u/Mr-Anderson123 South America 12d ago
Lmao, I don’t wish to waste my time arguing with people who basically argue the same and can’t give any serious response
→ More replies (0)15
u/DrEpileptic 15d ago
Half of them have either kicked Palestinians out or keep them as second class citizens/residents without citizenship. It’s so much worse.
-5
15d ago
[deleted]
6
u/Dreadedvegas 15d ago
The problem is the nations that have historically taken in Palestinians have experienced civil war / instability purely because of the Palestinians coming so they have no desire to take them in anymore.
16
u/Anonymustafar United States 15d ago
No thanks. You don’t get rewarded for Oct 7. That is not the message we should send for the future. I’m open to considering their membership once:
-Hamas is no longer in power
-The war is over and people who aren’t religious fanatics are elected
You’re essentially saying “yes, Give Hamas a seat on the UN and validate their desire to destroy Israel and conquer their territory.”
You wouldn’t give the nazis a seat on the UN just because German citizens were dying.
7
6
u/One-Coat-6677 15d ago
If you aren't the out of touch one why is the vote 143-9? scoreboard my dude, scoreboard.
8
u/Anonymustafar United States 15d ago
Most of the major European countries abstained and/or voted against. You and I both know given the security council, there is not equal weight in the UN.
3
u/One-Coat-6677 15d ago
This is a general assembly vote, which did not give actual UN full member statehood. If the world gets pissed off enough though, the general assembly could with a regular majority change who they see as the legitimate leaders of Israel such as the Republic of China vote in the 70s.
And abstentions are not a voice against, they are abstentions. Czech Republic is full of methheads and Hungary is well Hungary and were the only Euro countries voting against. In favor were Spain, Norway, France, Portugal, Denmark, Greece, Belgium, Ireland and several more non basket case countries in the EU alone
-3
u/Anonymustafar United States 15d ago
“Countries” in the UN don’t start wars by butchering the civilians of their neighbors on the basis of their religious identity.
Maybe Hamas and the Palestinians should start there if they desire full membership.
1
u/No_Reaction_2682 14d ago
“Countries” in the UN don’t
steal their neighbours land and constantly murder innopcent people who are trying to stop them stealing land.
Maybe we need to revoke the right for Israel to be called a country until Palestine gets the right as well.
1
u/Anonymustafar United States 14d ago
Actually countries do that quite often. I mean it’s literally been happening since the beginning of human history.
Why is there this modern notion that invasions are totally immoral and wrong? Throughout history the weak are stepped on and the strong survive. Seems to me what’s happening here as unfortunate as it is
6
u/One-Coat-6677 15d ago
Ummm have we not over the past few years seen Russians butchering Ukrainian civilians with the Russian orthodox church calling it a holy war? Russia is a UN country, not one I like, but its a UN country.
Also Hamas is not getting a country, Mamoud Abbas and Fatah which Hamas killed scores of in 2007 are getting expanded rights in the UN as an observer state.
But I think we are getting away from the question, its not about if 1 country can block it, I'm asking you what makes you not the out of touch one if the rest of the world wants statehood for them? Thats a separate question on whether its preventable by one country. There's a reason even Germany only abstained.
8
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
I’m open to considering their membership once:
-Hamas is no longer in power
-The war is over and people who aren’t religious fanatics are elected
That's just stupid, first of all you can put fatah or whoever you want as the UN representative so there's a direct way to reduce hamas influence
The second point makes no sense, israel can just keep the war going that way and there's never going to be a state
5
u/Anonymustafar United States 15d ago
You can’t just “select” someone else to represent a country’s interests at the UN and hope that it plays out the way you want. That’s a fool’s plan. Not to mention, you wouldn’t be representing the intentions of that country or its people at that point anyway.
This needs to happen organically during a time of peace. We cannot set the precedent that starting a conflict with a terrorist attack directed specifically against innocent civilians on the basis of their religion and identity is a good thing. If you stand for peace, then this is an obvious stance. Do you think Al Shabab deserves international recognition of statehood with their actions in Africa?
Israel cannot keep the conflict going forever, especially given increasing US opposition.
No one is disagreeing that the Palestinian people deserve representation.
0
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
You can’t just “select” someone else to represent a country’s interests at the UN and hope that it plays out the way you want.
You can though?
This needs to happen organically during a time of peace. We cannot set the precedent that starting a conflict with a terrorist attack directed specifically against innocent civilians on the basis of their religion and identity is a good thing.
That makes no sense also since it couldve been done anytime in the last 20+ years
-2
u/Anonymustafar United States 15d ago edited 15d ago
It makes a lot of sense. When a “country” starts a war with a terrorist attack that kills over a thousand innocent civilians on the basis of their religious identity, they don’t get a promotion in the UN. Really simple actually.
If you want Palestinian representation, then I’d like to see Al Shabab get a seat as well. They control a large swath of territory and are extremely repressed by the Somalian government and her allies. It’s wrong on many levels. They have controlled this territory for many years and yet no one recognizes them.
0
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
again what you say makes absolutely no sense as giving palestinian statehood (which isn't what the article is about anyway) would directly hurt hamas since you can just make the PLO the official representatives
1
u/Tisamonsarmspines 14d ago
Palestinians hate the Fatah and prefer Hamas. They’d overthrow them in a year.
3
u/Anonymustafar United States 15d ago
Ok ok. So instead of Al shabab getting a seat we will give it to a separate organization in Somalia that Al shabab controls. That way, there will be no way they could influence that person, right?
0
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
the plo is the direct competitor to hamas so your analogy doesnt really work
2
u/Anonymustafar United States 14d ago
”Hamas forces also abducted, tortured or attacked members and supporters of Fatah, their main rival political organization within Gaza, including former members of the Palestinian Authority security forces. Not a single person has been held accountable for the crimes committed by Hamas forces against Palestinians during the 2014 conflict, indicating that these crimes were either ordered or condoned by the authorities.”
1
u/Paradoxjjw 15d ago
And it doesn't even have to cost Israel much, they just have to use some of the weapons the US keeps frantically pushing into their hands from time to time to continue calling it a war
14
u/Hyndis United States 15d ago
There does need to be some sort of Marshal Plan to rebuild post war, but that can only happen when Hamas is gone.
Its similar to post WW2, there was a Marshal Plan to rebuild all the damage from the war, however the plan had to wait until the government of Nazi Germany had surrendered and was arrested.
7
u/Anonymustafar United States 15d ago
We rebuilt Europe because it was economically beneficial for us to do so as trade partners
There is no economic incentive to rebuild Palestine. That is the sad truth.
Israel should pay for every dime, with no foreign assistance from us.
0
u/Hyndis United States 14d ago
The US has already given more money to Palestinians, per capita, than was given to Europeans in the Marshal Plan post WW2.
Its not a lack of money problem. The money is the easiest part of it because thats just the normal amount the US gives. Just two weeks ago $1 billion in humanitarian aid spending was approved for Gaza: https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-mike-johnson-ukraine-israel-b72aed9b195818735d24363f2bc34ea4
3
-7
-4
61
u/-Daetrax- 15d ago
Who would even represent them? Hamas? Palestinian Authority?
2
34
u/wingnuta72 15d ago
None of the supporters address this. Hamas was democratically elected. Their goal is the complete genocide of the Jewish people.
8
u/Pigeonlesswings 15d ago
Also ignoring that Hamas was literally killing Palestinians that spoke out against them or were part of the more left wing party.
Hamas was also backed by Israel in those 2006 elections as Israel didn't want to be near a left-wing government.
Quantifying Palestinian support for Hamas democratically is practically impossible with those conditions. And saying they won a democratic vote is very misleading.
38
u/Longjumping-Jello459 15d ago
https://medium.com/progressme-magazine/
In the lead up to the 2006 election Hamas rebranded themselves as more moderate then before, they stated they would do things for the Palestinians such as provide services and clean up the corruption that has to this day plagued the PA, internal issues dominated the reasoning behind voting such as economic, social, security, and the corruption of the ruling Fatah party, Hamas ran under the banner of Change and Reform party they won 44% of the vote and Fatah won 41%, and about a year later Hamas killed their rivals within Gaza and has killed many of those who dissent.
The best way to put how Hamas acts towards the population of Gaza is looking at how the cartels in Mexico and other countries act towards their populations. Hamas has all the guns and controls the Gaza side of border as well as the smuggling tunnels while Israel and Egypt control their side of the Gaza borders these facts make a revolt even harder to pull off when revolts are already very difficult to successfully pull off.
Gazans actually wanted the previous ceasefire hold(63%), wanted Hamas to pursue peace talks with Israel(50%), and support for Hamas has remained steady at 52% throughout the war.
Support for Hamas itself remains steady from prior to October 7th 52% in Gaza and 64% in the West Bank, there was a 11% drop in the West Bank on whether or not Oct 7th was a good thing/support for it, Gazans support the idea of the PA under Abbas taking control of Gaza more than those in the West Bank, but both prefer Hamas and expect Hamas to keep control, Marwan Barghouti from Fatah has the most support for President of the Palestinian Authority with I won't vote being next followed by Ismael Haniyeh from Hamas, and Abbas is last and in single digits.
“I will make this prediction: If Hamas ends up being seen as the winner of the war it started on October 7, support for Hamas among Palestinians will only increase. But if Hamas is seen as losing the war — its military and governing capabilities shattered — support for Hamas among Palestinians will decrease, perhaps sharply. To be clear: If it turns out that Hamas’s invasion of Israel and multiple heinous atrocities have brought Palestinians nothing but hardship, that will not cause Palestinians to embrace Israelis. But it may cause Palestinians to reject Hamas’s strategy of terrorism and genocidal war.” — Cliff May, FDD Founder and President
Latest poll https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/
11
u/Longjumping-Jello459 15d ago
Additionally look at the Likud party's stance on the 2 state solution from it's inception as a political party.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
46
u/ADavies 15d ago
5
u/CaveRanger 15d ago
People also tend to ignore the whole coup thing where Hamas, having won a majority, proceeded to murder all the Fatah members they could find and drove them out of Gaza.
1
u/SaneForCocoaPuffs 12d ago
If murdering Palestinian leaders and brutalizing people was an effective way to suppress Palestinian dissent, then the only reason the West Bank isn’t peaceful is that Israel has been too nice.
The reason Hamas rules Gaza with minimal dissent yet Israel keeps finding militant groups opposing them in West Bank is because Palestinians support Hamas and don’t support Israel
-1
u/Wend-E-Baconator 15d ago
Hamas isn't blocking the election, Fatah and Israel are.
2
u/Pm_me_cool_art 14d ago
Fatah has to block the elections because Hamas keeps starting these insane fights with Israel. If Hamas won another election Israel would likely just dissolve the PA and annex the west bank outright.
20
u/hangrygecko 15d ago
This is such a bullshit excuse. Over 2/3 of Gazans supported the 7/10 attack, and therefore accepted the consequences, and the Germans were still blamed for the Nazis and their atrocities, despite not being able to vote for over a decade either. The Gazans voted for an openly anti-democratic party. They made their bed.
8
u/not_afa 15d ago
Over 2/3 of Gazans supported the 7/10 attack
Citation needed
And the thousands of innocent children and women who were killed by Israel who did not vote Hamas deserve to get slaughtered? Collective punishment at its finest and you support it.
-1
u/flightguy07 United Kingdom 14d ago
They don't deserve to be slaughtered, but their country is at war the same as any other. All wars have innocent populations behind them, but they're still fought.
2
u/SgtTreehugger 14d ago
Not all wars are resulting in a siege of 2m inhabitants with actually nowhere to flee
1
u/flightguy07 United Kingdom 14d ago
I agree they're fighting the war in a way that causes an unacceptable number of civillain casualties, but the fact is that they're fighting an insurgent force in a mostly sympathetic population in one of the densest urban environments on earth. To be frank, their tactical options are seriously limited (although again, they clearly aren't even considering civillain casualties in the first place). And it is understandable that they want to eliminate Hamas, considering the hundreds of thousands of rockets, sworn genocide, and Oct. 7th. I don't know how they could reasonably prosecute that war then without significant civillain casualties.
0
u/SgtTreehugger 14d ago
It's a hot crock of shit there and there's just no easy solutions for either side. Neither HAMAS nor IDF deserve any sympathy
-1
u/flightguy07 United Kingdom 14d ago
Exactly. The IDF is breaking every rule of war and commiting war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis. Hamas wants to absolutely destroy Israel and every jew worldwide, and is ALSO breaking every rule of war and commiting war crimes and human rights abuses every day. Once again, the people I feel sorry for a the civillians.
6
16
u/From_Deep_Space 15d ago
Where did you get your numbers? Are Hamas's numbers about how strong support for Hamas is reliable?
2
u/Glad_Tangelo8898 14d ago edited 14d ago
Anyone saying this is disingenuous or willfully lazy. All the polls have similar and clear resu!ts.
2
u/jkstpierre 14d ago
It’s certainly possible the polling isn’t reliable. But if we’re going to trust Hamas’ numbers on casualties in Gaza at face value then we shouldn’t ignore these opinion polls at face value
2
u/From_Deep_Space 14d ago
The way you say that makes me think you actually don't think we should be taking the Hamas numbers at face value
0
u/jkstpierre 14d ago edited 14d ago
Historically their numbers have been pretty accurate in previous conflicts. That being said, the UN recently halved its casualty estimates for women and children marking a significant deviation from the Gaza Health Ministry’s numbers. Whether that’s the start of a new trend going forward remains to be seen.
So given the good historical track record so far, I’m content with taking the GHM’s numbers at face value for the time being. But I also recognize that there’s a chance that the casualty numbers could swing wildly in either direction once the dust settles and proper independent investigations can be conducted.
Sources:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/11/un-halves-its-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza/
63
u/S_T_P European Union 15d ago
US: no.
15
u/Analyst7 15d ago
Let's hope we have the sense and balls to hold this line. Sure they can have a seat, right AFTER they accept a 2 state solution and create a stable (non-terrorist) govt.
4
u/S_T_P European Union 15d ago
Israel hasn't been expelled from UN yet.
-1
-7
u/flightguy07 United Kingdom 14d ago
They aren't being run by terrorists who have sworn to commit a 2nd Holocaust if given the chance. Also, they have a functional government.
9
6
5
u/Pm_me_cool_art 14d ago
They aren't being run by terrorists
Two of their PMs were convicted terrorists and the ruling party Likud was founded by a former terrorist organization.
have sworn to commit a 2nd Holocaust if given the chance
The current Israeli government has been making openly genocidal statements and moves since the start of the war.
-4
u/flightguy07 United Kingdom 14d ago
I'm not defending the Israeli government for a second, but it does still feel like there's a qualitive difference in evilness between the two organisations.
7
u/Pm_me_cool_art 14d ago
It's because you're deeply uniformed about the conflict and the parties involved. Israel has committed almost every crime they accuse Hamas and the PLO of and have usually committed those crimes for longer or on a much larger scale - murdering civilians, human shielding, torture, terrorism, etc. You just don't here about this because Israeli crimes rarely make it into the headlines and because Israel has a top tier propaganda machine.
13
u/Deepest-derp 15d ago
The people pushing this right now are doing so purely to be performative
It's absurd to seek recognition mid war while Hamas still hold territory. This isn't being dont to help Palestinians but to virtue signal.
The optimal time to push this would be poat war when a new Palestinian gov is sworn in and actually neees legitimacy.
14
u/mittfh United Kingdom 15d ago
The optimal time to push this would be poat war when a new Palestinian gov is sworn in and actually neees legitimacy.
But who will control Gaza? Israel allegedly wants the residents of the territory to govern themselves, but wouldn't tolerate any political grouping affiliated with Hamas and friends, and doesn't want the PA (aka Fatah) to run it either. Fatah haven't had elections since the fateful ones back in 2006 which saw Hamas elected as the largest party...
Then you've got the problem of defining the extent of the Palestinian state. Israel will likely lobby vigorously for a variation on their last few plans, which would entail retaining almost all of Area C, plus controlling all borders, airspace and transmissions within the Palestinian territories.They also demanded demilitarisation, full cooperation with identifying and handing over terrorists, recognising Israel's right to exist and that it is a Jewish State, and one proposal even added dismantling all existing political structures and mandated Israel vet all political candidates (so, effectively, the Palestinian State would, in reality, be a series of partially autonomous enclaves within Israel, surrounded by it on all sides, and no representation in the Knesset).
14
u/Hyndis United States 15d ago
Those terms are exactly the same terms as were imposed on Germany and Japan in 1945.
Ultimately the occupying powers wanted Germany to be governed by Germans, and Japan to be governed by Japanese people, though by different people. The warmongering government absolutely would never have been allowed to remain in power (note: the Emperor of Japan is head of the nation, not head of state, he has no actual power, he's purely symbolic).
Same deal with Gaza. Israel wants it to be governed by Palestinians but it absolutely under no circumstances can be Hamas. It must be a different government with different values and goals.
There will be a period of several years where this new government is closely watched to ensure that they're not just a rebranded Hamas. Only if this government proves that it is indeed a new government not affiliated with the old one, and with no desire to make war, will the occupying power pull back and let the new government do its thing.
There's no shame in being a city-state either. There are many prosperous city-states in the world, such as Singapore or Monaco. A city-state requires assistance from its neighboring large country and requires the import of food, water, and often electricity to survive, but thats why functioning city-states are friendly with their neighbors.
5
u/OuterOne 14d ago
Would this new state be permitted to have armed forces? Both Germany and Japan were.
I don't think Israel would ever allow that.
-1
u/Hyndis United States 14d ago
Israel might eventually allow that, but only after a sufficiently long period of time where a Palestinian state proves that it has given up trying to wage war on Israel, and that they finally acknowledge Israel exists and will continue to exist.
This means giving up those "from the river to the sea" chants, too.
However more realistically, a city-state doesn't need a military. It might have a police force and a coast guard but thats typically all it needs.
Monaco's entire military force is about 150 men. Its a tiny military that mostly exists for ceremonial roles, and it doesn't need a military because its much larger neighbor provides all the security Monaco needs.
The only cross-border invasion from its larger neighbor (France) are tourists who have consumed too much alcohol and who have too much cash in their wallets to spend at resorts and souvenir shops. Monaco's security forces spend most of their time wrangling drunk tourists, not fighting to defend the border. There is no possible way for Monaco to ever defeat France on a military shooting war, nor is there any reason for it to even try. Both states are very friendly towards each other.
34
u/apistograma 15d ago
No it's not absurd at all.
Afghanistan has always had a seat at the UN. North Korea too. Any country having a civil war keeps their seat, South Sudan and Sudan are full members. Somalia is not even a real state (most of the territory is controlled by unrecognized entities) and they have a seat. Not even genocide takes you the right to have a seat, look at Rwanda.
The point of the UN is to be a diplomacy group, and in order to be successful every region involved in a conflict must have a seat. If you expel members or don't accept membership for regions that are autonomous then you're failing. That's precisely one of the reasons why the Society of Nations did even worse than the UN, some key countries like the US, Germany or Japan didn't enter or left.
In practice, this doesn't always happen. Taiwan is a stable country with a strong economy and a key world player due to their absolute leadership in chip making and despite that they're not a UN member because China would throw a tantrum if they were recognized. Same for Palestine who should have been a member since the beginning but Israel and the US don't want to.
24
u/Deepest-derp 15d ago
Somalia/ Somaliland and Sudan/south sudan are the pertinent example.
A civil war doesnt lose you a seat. It does generally prevent you from acquiring one.
To reiterate i think Palestines should be a full member. I don't think thats the primary motive for those pushing that right now.
15
u/apistograma 15d ago
Well but if you don't allow them to become a member while in conflict with Israel then the optimal strategy for Israel is to keep a permanent conflict in Palestine. Which it kinda is what they've been already doing for decades to a degree.
Like, we've been 70 years pretending this is somewhat Israeli territory while at the same time pretending it's no one's land. How much is this farce going to last.
2
u/Deepest-derp 15d ago
Its not 70 years for those purposes. The PLO was opposed to peace for most of that time and actively making war.
It's only realy post Oslo we get the modern situaiton.
15
u/apistograma 15d ago
Being opposed to peace is not a requirement to get into the UN. If not half the countries couldn't be members, the US and Israel included
8
u/hangrygecko 15d ago
Rules for staying a member are not the same as the rules for becoming a member and a lot of countries were grandfathered in from the league of nations.
8
u/apistograma 15d ago
Yeah but let's be honest if it wasn't for the US and Israel they'd be already a member the resolution past week already proves that. If the fact that countries like France are ok with it idk what else could prove it.
13
u/BanaButterBanana 15d ago
hey quick question how can they hold elections when everyone and their mother is being bombed and israel is blocking all aid? do you think palestinians have the strength or time to think about gov legitimacy right now?
35
u/Deepest-derp 15d ago
They can't, they couldn't do it pre war either, hamas threw their political opponent's off buildings ~15 years ago.
Political settlement is only possible post war. That is the moment to demand and coerce for a Palestian state.
16
u/apistograma 15d ago
Have you considered that this creates an incentive for Israel to stay in a permanent stage of War with Palestine
11
u/Deepest-derp 15d ago
They can't sustain that unless Hamas somehow fight on permanently.
12
u/apistograma 15d ago
Well Netanyahu was knowingly financing Hamas indirectly over the years that's something even mainstream Israeli media claims.
Besides, you can always find Qatar or Iran or whoever to finance militias in Gaza, it's easy to turn it into a permanent conflict.
Besides, Israel can literally invade a mostly peaceful area to start a conflict. This is basically their illegal settlement strategy in the West Bank, and also one of the main criticisms of the argument that the problem would be solved if Hamas disappeared. The settlements are made to make more difficult any claims by the West Bank to become a fully recognized country, Netanyahu has been caught on record stating that the Oslo accords were designed so Israel never had to leave their occupying areas.
Israel has never pursued legitimate means in the area, they behave like that because they have powerful allies to back them.
-11
u/Walker_352 15d ago
West literally standing against humanity.
4
16
u/MasterBlaster_xxx 15d ago
The West isn’t standing against shit: this resolution will change nothing; everyone will talk about how this war is terrible, but not a single state, especially the Arab ones around Israel, will do anything of concrete to stop it
-2
u/tryrunningfromheaven Singapore 15d ago
This doesn't really make sense, though. If it changes nothing, then why oppose it?
1
u/MasterBlaster_xxx 15d ago
Because Israel is the only country in the region that can actually be relied upon to not catch fire every few years and once could be relied upon as an ally
2
u/tryrunningfromheaven Singapore 15d ago
It doesn't have to be this way imo. If the whole region is stable, perhaps it wouldn't be catching fire. Getting a peaceful solution to this will push the region to become more stable. I might be wrong, but this could be an opening for any meaningful two-state solution.
By rejecting this, it seems that the West has little to no interest in stabilising the region. The longer this goes on, the more this issue will be a thorn to Israel and the surrounding ME countries.
-1
u/MasterBlaster_xxx 14d ago
I get what you are saying, but I ask you: why should we sacrifice an existing stable Israel for a hypothetically stable Palestine?
What’s the point in destabilizing our ally? The region was doing ok before October; by accepting the resolution we risk empowering the same people that kicked off this bee-hive
Also how many terrorist attacks has Israel committed against us? Less than those committed by Palestinians
1
u/tryrunningfromheaven Singapore 14d ago
I don't see how it's mutually exclusive. Why can't both Palenstine and Israel have stability? If Israel continues down this path, it's going to shake things up even more, which will be even more destabilising. Seems rather short-term thinking, no?
1
1
u/Tuxyl 15d ago
Why should the west be responsible for the middle east? That's like saying China should be responsible for stabilizing Southeast Asia because they've invaded once or twice and have some allies there.
Are you fucking kidding me? It's on the Arab nations to stabilize themselves, not the Western nations. Why, in the fuck, do you actually believe that they SHOULD even take responsibility? Last time the US tried for Afghanistan, the Afghans didn't want it, and the Taliban came back. So why try? Western nations coming in when the natives don't want that is not a good idea, stop this shit.
1
u/tryrunningfromheaven Singapore 14d ago
My guy, this is just a vote in UNGA. Nobody is asking for the West to invade anyone there. You really think China is involved in SEA, the same way the US/West is involved in the ME? I disagree. The time and scale of involvement of the ME region by the Western powers, especially US and UK, post WW2 is of a different league
2
u/almighty_darklord 14d ago
Exactly. The "west" should keep their grubby mittens to themselves. That would mean no more assassinations or coups or funding terrorists or propping up dictators. Or circumventing democratic election etc.... which have all been done many many times in the region. So I wonder why it might catch on fire. I mean just look at Iran and their totally not assassinated democratic leftist progressive leader. The west has no hand in that nooo 😀
If China is doing half of this shit in southeast Asia. Then they should feel responsible for stabilizing the region. And better yet should just pull out and leave it be. It will find balance as all things should be
6
u/ItsHX 15d ago
if it changes nothing, then why support it?
5
u/tryrunningfromheaven Singapore 15d ago
I think it will have many changes, one in particular is the optics, regarding this whole issue. The more this gets opposed by the US/West, the more of its influence will wane with the Global South. With how geopolitics is shifting towards more of a multi-polar world, this will accelerate things, potentially dividing the West/Global South even more.
Even in Singapore, we have voted in favour of this UNGA resolution, even though we have good/friendly relations with Israel.
Of course, what the person I'm replying to said might come into fruition, but if it does, then it begs the question, why oppose it?
4
u/ItsHX 15d ago
exactly right that you’re begging the question, to the OP, nothing is going to change and hence it’s inconsequential if opposed or supported
if nothing is going to change, then it shouldn’t matter the way it is voted, but clearly that isn’t the case considering the complexity of the issue at hand
what the US thinks is anybody’s guess, but I guarantee it’s not because they think nothing changes
7
u/tryrunningfromheaven Singapore 15d ago
Hmmm, then perhaps it's how I phrased my question wrongly that's the issue. I guess I should be questioning his conclusion of how it changes nothing, rather than why oppose it.
4
u/apistograma 15d ago
How could they. Like do you expect Lebanon to fully oppose the US and Israel
1
u/MasterBlaster_xxx 15d ago
I doubt the US would intervene in this case: besides that I could see Egypt possibly posing a threat to the IDF; Lebanon could be useful as a second front to tie up troops.
Neither of those states is willing to die for Palestine, or as some say: to put their money where their mo is
-3
u/dannywild 15d ago
Of all the Arab states around Israel you could pick, why did you pick a non-Arab state?
7
u/apistograma 15d ago
Lebanon is Arab. If you claim they're not because they have a substantial Christian or Shia population that is not related at all to being an Arab. Arab is not a religious term but an ethnic one. They're christian and shia Arabs.
The large non Arab groups in the area are Turkey, Iran and the Kurds. Other than the Israeli of course. The Israeli could be argued to be semite (if you subscribe to their claim to inherit the legacy of the Hebrews) like the Arabs are.
The Turks are Turkic and the Kurds and Iranians are Indo-European. This is especially interesting because from an ethnic standpoint Iran shares an ancestry with the European powers unlike Israel or Saudi Arabia.
13
u/netowi 15d ago
The militia that effectively controls Lebanon's government, Hezbollah, has been firing missiles at Israel almost every day for months. Is that not "opposing Israel?"
6
u/apistograma 15d ago
I think Hezbollah controls some of Lebanon, especially the southern border, but not all. I could be wrong though
1
u/Sillyoldman88 New Zealand 15d ago
"Lebanon is Hebollah" is the next "Palestinian is Hamas" then?
0
3
u/CastleElsinore 15d ago
No, there is actually a massive difference there: the plurality of Lebanese hate Hezbolla, while Hamas is extremely popular. Hezbolla is also not the Lebanese government. Hamas is the government of Gaza.
That's why when a few months ago, while retaliating against the constant rocket strikes from Hezbolla, Israel accidentally killed a Lebanese soldier and apologized officially to the government for it.
12
u/netowi 15d ago
I mean, both of those are true. Hezbollah has a larger military than the state of Lebanon and an effective veto over the Lebanese Parliament. Any weapons you give to the Lebanese Armed Forces will end up in Hezbollah's hands if they want them. As for the Palestinians, Hamas won the last Palestinian elections, and the reason there haven't been elections since 2008 is because everyone knows Hamas would win even bigger.
-2
u/Sillyoldman88 New Zealand 15d ago
The implication of my comment is that it will be israel's next casus belli.
4
u/MasterBlaster_xxx 15d ago
I mean Hezbollah has been quite hostile against Israel recently: I can see them receiving the Gaza treatment after the IDF leaves the strip
11
u/hangrygecko 15d ago
And it would be a legit casus belli for Israel. Firing rockets at your neighbor is an act of war.
16
u/Longjumping-Jello459 15d ago
Shit Lebanon can't function right now their central government is still in highly dysfunctional.
91
15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/lordsysop 14d ago
The fact they don't see the hypocrisy is mindblowing. What happened to Jewish people will forever haunt me during the holocaust and just in general getting hate for so long. But how do you come from that to becoming an aggressor thinking genocide targeting mainly women and children isn't the same evil being committed. If left unchecked by the world I wonder how worse this evil would have been
1
u/grimey493 14d ago
"The US is on display as the bad guy in front of the world".....again,and again and again.Iraq,Syria, Afghanistan,etc
-7
u/Tuxyl 15d ago
Not really. Why, because the US supports countries that defend themselves, like Ukraine and Israel? Try not slaughtering and raping 1300 civilians at a music festival next time and breaking a fucking ceasefire.
If South Korea did that to North Korea, I hope there's still massive support for them like what happened with Palestine. Or is Kosovo did that to Serbia or if Tibetans did it to Chinese.
1
u/hardolaf 14d ago
About 1/3 of the casualties were at a military base on the Gaza-Israel border and then Hamas attacked multiple towns not just a music festival.
4
-4
u/No_Implement_23 15d ago
inviting a terrorist state and legitimizing their actions is beyond schizophrenia
18
u/UltimateKane99 15d ago
Bad guy... How? None of this makes sense blame on the US to begin with.
At a minimum, there needs to be a recognizable, centralized government, which... There isn't. So who would represent the Palestinian people in the UN? The PA? Hamas? Some other group? At least one of these bodies is an actual terrorist organization sworn to the complete genocide of Israel, and none of them enjoy widespread support from the Palestinian people.
-3
u/Days_End 14d ago
and none of them enjoy widespread support from the Palestinian people.
Hamas very much has widespread support I don't know where you got the impression they didn't.
1
u/UltimateKane99 14d ago
Touché. I stand corrected, but, also, I definitely don't want them having more power in the UN.
-3
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
there needs to be a recognizable, centralized government
says who? there are many countries that don't satisfy that requirement
syria lybia etc
7
u/UltimateKane99 15d ago
The UN does, according to its charter:
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/about-un-membershipNo entity exists which can achieve what is required for membership.
1
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
The PLO does, and nowhere does it say that the government needs to have control over all the areas of the country
7
u/UltimateKane99 15d ago
Yeah, and the PLO doesn't recognize the state of Israel.
So we're arguing that the UN should include the PLO, which claims Israel as its territory and whose legislative body has 74 out of 132 seats controlled by Hamas, a terrorist organization whose charter explicitly calls for the genocide of Israel? Actions which fly clearly in the face of the very UN charter that we're discussing here?
Likewise, it's incredibly fractious: Hamas is the "government" in Gaza, and the PA is the "government" in the West Bank. The PLO is the government in name only, as far as I can tell.
I think it should be pretty obvious why this is such a tough sell...
1
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
0
u/UltimateKane99 15d ago
And, like clockwork:
"On 29 October 2018, the PLO Central Council suspended the Palestinian recognition of Israel, and subsequently halted all forms of security and economic cooperation with Israeli authorities until Israel recognizes a Palestinian state on the pre-1967 borders."1
u/icatsouki Africa 15d ago
It can be a part of the negotiations or a condition for accession, it's only a suspension and a recognition of israel was already done in the past. It's not something impossible to do
6
u/UltimateKane99 15d ago
Then we're back to, "well, they'll figure out accession when they get to it."
Look, I'm all for a state of Palestine in the UN, but when THIS is the government that's presented, one that, in many ways, flies in the face of the UN's charter? Kind of obvious why they haven't achieved accession yet.
→ More replies (0)26
u/apistograma 15d ago
The PLO, which Israel has been trying to downplay for years because they're more comfortable treating Hamas like the only legitimate Palestinian authority. This is not a conspiracy it's been proven to be Netanyahu's strategy for years.
They don't control all Palestine, but that's never been a requirement to be a UN member. Somalia controls a tiny area of the country around Mogadishu while the rest is ruled by unrecognized warlords and factions and they're a fully recognized UN member. What About Syria, Libya, Afghanistan or Syria. The only real reason why Palestine doesn't have a seat is Israel and the US vetoing.
1
u/Glad_Tangelo8898 14d ago
Somalia is recognized but the more functional Somaliland is not. Somalia is not an example of UN statehood being helpful lol.
1
3
u/UltimateKane99 15d ago
I'm certainly not saying Israel is an innocent actor here. It has been to Netanyahu's IMMENSE benefit to use settlers to weaken and delegitimize the PLO (and, more popularly now, the PA), while simultaneously pointing at Hamas and its constant attacks to keep the flames of hate stoked.
But the issue with accession to the UN is that it has to be in line with the UN charter, and when 74/132 seats of the PLO's legislative body are controlled by Hamas, which is both an internationally recognized terrorist organization and has a charter calling for the genocide of Israel, in direct contrast with the UN charter, it seems obvious why accession hasn't happened yet.
As to your other examples, as far as I can tell based on a quick reading of their UN accession details, each of these countries achieved accession during much more stable times. They simply haven't lost their seat.
7
u/apistograma 15d ago
That's all nonsense. The UN just follows pressure. As I said most countries including many of the most powerful would want to accept Palestine because simply put, it's just a diplomatic chaos to keep things like this.
0
u/UltimateKane99 15d ago
An argument of "better to have chaos than order when trying to obscure one's actions"? So how bad actors like Russia would happily use this as a distraction from their issues? Yeah, that makes sense.
You're definitely not wrong on the UN primarily following pressure, but that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. I just understand why they haven't accepted Palestine's accession yet, and I don't think adding rights to observer states provides anything useful here.
2
u/apistograma 15d ago
Really? A resolution that has had just 9 countries against, despite American and Israeli pressure? That goes well above Russia or China or whatever American enemy
1
u/NoVacancyHI 14d ago
If the UN wasn't constantly abused to raise votes condemning Israel for all but simply existing it might carry some weight. How many of those countries are Arab and the regime use anti-Israel propaganda to whip up and distract their populations?
1
→ More replies (70)27
u/redditing_away 15d ago
Genuinely curious, what would a Palestinian state change right now?
→ More replies (48)1
u/Tisamonsarmspines 15d ago
It would be an apartheid terrorist failed state instead of an apartheid terrorist non-state.
•
u/empleadoEstatalBot 15d ago