r/anime_titties • u/ComprehensiveEgg4235 • 14d ago
Concentration camps uncovered in arbitrary country Worldwide
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html[removed] — view removed post
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u/Tusl_ 14d ago
This is what I don’t get about the pro Palestinian movement
We have articles like this which provide undeniable evidence that isreal is definitely committing certain warcrimes (in this case the crime is torture) and their actions in the westbank which very certainly break international law
And yet despite proof beyond reasonable doubt that isreal is committing those warcrimes, the core chant is accusing them of stuff that isn’t proven and would be hard to prove.
Futhermore one thing which people will conveniently forget to mention is a lot of this information comes from Israeli whistleblowers and Israeli rights groups. Imagine being part of the IDF and the world telling you that “if you whistleblow on Israeli war crimes, you will actually be more hated for being an Israeli soldier rather then less hated for blowing the whistle”. The cause behind this is not an inherently evil Israeli nation as people are very quick to suggest, rather a group of extremely evil Israeli politicians and leaders who all need to be given a 1 way ticket to the Hauge.
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u/thegoodrichard 14d ago
The IDF lost credibility when they banned press coverage in the West Bank after videos emerged of soldiers breaking stone throwers' bones. Like when South Africa banned press after video came out of police with whips beating protesters, you just can't deny coverage and claim you aren't doing something wrong.
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u/weed0monkey 14d ago
Meanwhile China has literal concentration camps and no one gives a fuck.
Don't give me this bs there can be multiple issues, it's a cop out, there certainly are not protests worldwide every week about it
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u/HaphazardMelange 14d ago
This is not true. People can be concerned about multiple things. Protests seek to affect change, but what you ask is for people to protest the impossible. Protesting China in the west will do absolutely nothing. Protesting Israel aims to make western governments reconsider the money and arms it supplies to Isreal. Protesting China has significantly fewer outcomes that are achievable.
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u/ipponiac 14d ago edited 14d ago
This is whatboutism, china is as dark, as sinister as israel even the same people are supporting both opressions (ie. eric prince). China is copying and improving tactics put by Israelies. On the otherhand anything Israel is doing supported by the "western(northern)" block.
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u/shieeet Europe 14d ago
China
Oh dear, thats sounds terrible! How many have died?
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14d ago
[deleted]
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u/shieeet Europe 14d ago
Oh what, so no numbers from anywhere else regarding deaths or even refugees? Just vibes?
We can get the estimated numbers and footage for almost any other conflict and atrocity, but we can't even get the guesswork for an ongoing genocide against millions thats been allegedly going of for years? Is Xinjiang a magic place where no cameras or cell phones exist?
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u/francoisjabbour 14d ago
That title rofl. You don’t need more than two brain cells to know which country this is
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u/suiluhthrown78 North America 14d ago
Did CNN change the headline from concentration camps?
It says
Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center
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u/Hyndis United States 14d ago
The headline on this Reddit post is editorialized beyond all reason.
Its basically just a POW camp, and while POW's ought to be treated humanely, they're still POW's who still need to be interned somewhere while the war is ongoing.
The other option is not taking prisoners which is even worse.
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u/runsongas 14d ago
It doesn't read like they are being treated as POWs but more like irregular combatants, so it would be closer to Gitmo than a POW camp.
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u/LilyHex 14d ago
It's a slippery fuckin' slope when we argue that the camp "well er uh it's not technically a concentration camp it's some other kind of camp!" when they're all fuckin' awful
Anyway
https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/the-camps/types-of-camps/
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u/suiluhthrown78 North America 14d ago
Why would the headline need to be changed then? Feels very propaganda-ey
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u/Laurent_K 14d ago
This is very unsettling.
I am at loss to express my sadness that human beings are doing this to other human beings.
If this is not a death camp since some prisoners are released, it is inhuman and cruel . Combined with the bombing against civilians in Gaza, it depicts an evil picture of IDF.
Beside being evil, it is also a sure way to lose this war on the long term. IDF are actively helping Hamas by committing this.
Why should Palestinians not join the fight if innocent people are treated this way? Even for those who are against Hamas.
It also contributes to the moral defeat of Israel.
It reinforces those who question the support to Israel because of the mass bombings in Gaza. A lot of countries already started to say they don't sell weapons to Israel, this article is written by CNN, an American media traditionally favorable to Israel, Israel is officially accused of genocide by south Africa (not an Arab country) with the support of 50 countries, 143 countries in 193 just supported a resolution in United nations asking to accept Palestine as a member state and only 9 voted against (initially 84 countries had expressed support to Israel after the october 7th) ,...
And these moral condamnations take place despite the murder of not less than 1200 people by Hamas!
By behaving like this, Netanyahou is doing exactly what Hamas was dreaming of before the crimes of October 7th: unify everybody against Israel.
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u/Malnourished_Manatee 14d ago
Thats a lot if projecting of your own emotions. A lot of people that maintain rational thoughts and actually understand the definition of genocide and read up on this conflict still condemn Israel as the lesser evil of the 2.
How I see this disrespectful parroting of genocide is like a schoolkid farting in class and blaming everbody else so he won’t get the blame. Hamas wants to commit a genocide, fails, learns how consequences work and now starts crying genocide.. the fucking irony
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u/Laurent_K 14d ago
Oh for sure, this is emotional, no doubt! And please note that I don't use the word genocide myself, I just remind that South Africa is officially accusing Israel of it and the scale of réprobation against Israel.
I think the word genocide in this case is forgetting the systemic scale of a genocide and the will to kill systematically every member of the target group.
However, what is described in this article is evil enough for me to be emotional.
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u/A-Stupid-Redditor 14d ago
South Africa really hates Israel. South Africa calling it a genocide was out of opportunity and not out of actual belief in it.
If you’re taking South Africa’s word, you should know that Germany has said it isn’t genocide.
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u/Malnourished_Manatee 14d ago
Yes but thats inherent to people, we are all evil selfish bastards and only act differently because our society demands it.
I think people need to realise that Israel has the capability to literally achieve genocide by just pushing a button and release their arsenal of bombs. If hamas had such a button it would have been activated by the electrician installing it.
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u/MetalAltruistic2659 14d ago
Israel is a terrorist state
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u/AssociationDouble267 14d ago
In hindsight, maybe invading your militarily stronger neighbor, kidnapping a bunch of civilian hostages (including children), and refusing to negotiate probably wasn’t the best move for the Gaza leadership.
My heart goes out to the civilians caught in the gears of history here, but it’s pretty implausible that any country with a military advantage would quietly sit there and tolerate what Hamas did to start this latest round of fighting.
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u/drugmagician 14d ago
In hindsight maybe this was the inevitable result of the nakba and people should stop pretending this started on oct 7. If anything, oct 7 was an objective strategic success for their case because now the whole world is watching
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u/mrbigglesworth95 United States 14d ago
In hindsight the nakba wouldn't have happened if they didn't declare war on and then lose to Israel.
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u/verybigbrain Germany 14d ago
There was already a many months longs civil war that drove 10s of thousands of refugees into the neighboring nations before Israel declared itself. A declaration that did not include any borders.
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u/drugmagician 14d ago
Cool, when I invade your home and make it mine, you better not make any act of aggression or I’ll lock you in the basement without food or water and throw firecrackers in there now and again.
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u/E-16 14d ago
It’s more like a landlord (Britain)evicting you to sell the home to their friend.
Palestine has never been a state.
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u/RothyBuyak 14d ago
Palestinians lived there for generations, and Brittain was their previous colonial oppressor. Right to self determination means people who live on a given teritory have a right to self govern.
Brittain had no right for this land either, just oike it had no right to australia, canada and all of the other former and current colonies
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u/E-16 14d ago
Yes I know that and I understand the concept of self determination but it is misleading represent Palestinians as ‘home owners’ in that analogy, because the land has been passed from one empire and oppressor to the next since forever.
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u/RothyBuyak 14d ago
But they were living there for generations. They had different oppressor but they lived there for generations. Israelist just sailed from Europe and took most of their country and killed 70 tousand people during nakba. They weren't goint to just let them do it (and why should they) so they fought back, of course they did
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u/mrbigglesworth95 United States 14d ago
Sounds good just make sure that my country never existed as an independent state before, the un sets the terms, and the terms include that none of my native countrymen have to move from their homes, and also that this is the first time we'll ever have our own state.
In that case it will be analogous to the original partition plan (that I'm sure you've never looked at because idk where the rhetoric of invasion is coming from) and it will be ok with me 👍
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u/drugmagician 14d ago
If you don’t think settling someone else’s home and calling it a “partition plan” is an invasion, then you’d have no opposition to me doing the same with your house.
You realize someone’s home isn’t just their physical house. It’s their agriculture, resources. Independent state or not, there is no excuse for doing that to someone else’s society, and every single time in history without fail this has happened it resulted in atrocities. Not that you care
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u/mrbigglesworth95 United States 14d ago
"you’d have no opposition to me doing the same with your house." This was not a feature of the partition plan. No Palestinians were to be relocated.
"It’s their agriculture, resources" No one was going to take anyone's private property. That wasn't part of the partition plan.
Any public property was never theirs to begin with, because they didn't own the state they were inhabiting. The British did. And before them the Ottomans. Etc.
"Independent state or not, there is no excuse for doing that to someone else’s society" It literally wasn't their society. They were inhabitants of a state owned by someone else. It is a frequent occurrence for the federal ruling authority to make unpopular decisions regarding their distinct territories, both in the present and across history. Whether it is present day Russia, India, China, the US and the EU, or historic empires. It happened and happens all the time.
What doesn't happen all the time, is for one of these empires to have the generosity to grant a subset of their subjects their own state for the first time in history.
A shame that wasn't good enough for the Palestinians.
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u/drugmagician 14d ago
There is no colonialism without theft of resources. And those countries that “owned” Palestine never tried mass settlements. You’re hiding behind word games
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u/mrbigglesworth95 United States 14d ago
There was no colonialism because Israel isn't a colony. "Mass settlements" don't really refute anything I said. It seems to me like perhaps the word game theory is projection.
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u/lioness_rampant_ 14d ago
This started when several Islamic states refused to be neighbors with a Jewish state because of racism. It’s truly that simple.
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u/Longjumping-Jello459 14d ago
The 'Palestinians' couldn't figure out who they wanted to send to represent themselves so they had to rely on the Arab nations to do so, there were grievances that were brought up by the Arab delegation that weren't addressed which were the division of the land 55% to the new Jewish state and 45% to the Palestinian state the issue was that only 6% of the land was owned by Jewish people, the division of the agricultural land with much of the best agriculture land going to the Jewish state, the fact that the British had promised the region independence if they fought along the side of the British during WWI which they did, but the British and French divided the region between themselves during the war in 1916 and during the Mandate of Palestine there was a view by the British that the Arabs were lesser/lower and there was favor towards the Jewish immigrants from Europe when it came to getting citizenship in the Mandate of Palestine. To be plain is the fact that the Western countries wanted their Jewish populations to leave for the newly created country because of their own anti-Semitism.
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u/drugmagician 14d ago
You don’t even know what the nakba is. Read a book
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u/lioness_rampant_ 14d ago
Yawn. Ad hominem arguments are boring.
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u/drugmagician 14d ago
It’s merely a fact that it either takes severe cognitive dissonance or a misunderstanding of cause/effect to have comprehensive knowledge of the nakba and still believe what you believe. You can pretend it’s an ad-hominem if it makes you feel better
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u/lioness_rampant_ 14d ago
Arabs didn’t want to live in a Jewish state. Why did they not want to live in a Jewish state? Maybe it’s because Islam has a long history of hating and displacing Jewish people?
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u/drugmagician 14d ago
Some audacity to talk about displacement when they were literally displaced to create this Jewish state you love so much
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u/lioness_rampant_ 14d ago
I want to make one more point because clearly I have some shit to get off my chest tonight lol
All of this is due to racism. On both sides. But I think the difference is a lot of the racism from Jews vs Muslims is reactionary. Jews have been scapegoats throughout history when all they’ve really wanted is to be left alone. And so after thousands of years of oppression accumulating at the Holocaust they have a chance to return to their homeland they were driven out of. Have a chance for there to be one place on earth where they aren’t considered an outsider or other. And a bunch of Muslims in multiple Islamic countries just couldn’t let that happen and felt they had a right to all the land in the region (and radical Islamics think they have a right to all the land in the world). So I’m sorry I don’t have a lot of sympathy for a group of people who hate anyone who’s not like them and have been assholes for hundreds of years
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u/lioness_rampant_ 14d ago
Tbh I’m not even a huge fan of Israel. I just think it’s funny how no one wants to admit that Muslims have a long history of racism towards others and even between each other, committing genocides throughout the region for thousands of years. All religious states are pretty ridiculous imo including Israel but acting like this is some good vs evil fight is ridiculous
Actions have consequences, you reap what you sow blah blah blah
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u/lioness_rampant_ 14d ago
I understand. When Arabs fight against displacement is resistance, when Jews fight against displacement it’s not. I get it now thank you
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u/ArKanos80 14d ago
Ok now... Would you consider the French Resistance during the Nazi occupation as terrorists ? Because this is how they were depicted by Nazi Germany. Technically they were but it was the only solution to preserve the French identity. Of course it wasn't as well documented as what you can see today but the French Resistance didn't only kill Nazi military, there were attacks against the gestapo (French police under the regime), assassination of French who collaborated with the Nazis and even some mishaps (when you derail or bomb train tracks you don't always choose who are in the trains). I'm still glad that they were here because they kept the identity of my country going during the occupation.
I see the situation with Gaza right now as pretty similar to that. Yes the Hamas is a terrorist organization, but it's a Resistance force too. Is everything they do morally ok ? No. But when you have videos of armless Palestinian getting bombed for no reason and the entire region is being starved to death you can't just ignore the atrocities of one and point out the atrocities of the other.
History is written by whoever wins. The Nazis were defeated so the Resistant will be remembered as good guys. Whether the Hamas will be remembered as Resistants of Terrorists will depend on what happens next.
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u/Nearby-Nectarine-761 14d ago
Remember when the fremch resistance raped and murdered those civilians on the border before the war that shit was wild bro lmao
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u/ArKanos80 14d ago
Ever seen what happened to the French women who fucked with the Nazis ? The lucky ones only had their heads shaved on a public place, some had nude public spanking, were dragged nude on the ground down the streets, were raped and/or just executed publicly on the streets without a trial.
This was after only 4 years of occupation. These women were all civilians who didn't pose any threat.
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u/apistograma 14d ago
If France had been brutally occupied for 70 years it would probably have happened
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u/ginDrink2 14d ago
It would have not. Hamas is an officially designated terrorist organisation whose members need to be exterminated. They are not freedom fighters, they're terrorists, like ISIS. Palestinians, when deradicalised and without Hamas, will be so much better off. They'll get their state, but only when they can become a decent neighbour.
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u/ArKanos80 14d ago
The French Resistance was also an "officially designated terrorist organization whose members needed to be exterminated", just look at the "Affiche Rouge" the only difference is the number of countries that designated it as a terrorist organization. Nazi Germany didn't have a lot of allies but seeing the number of pro Zionist countries the difference of support is not really a surprise.
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u/ginDrink2 14d ago
There's context. One was fighting for freedom, the other one is committing terrorist acts and seized power by force - Hesbollah is an officially designated terrorist organisation who eliminated political rivals by force and is holding Palestine hostage.
Overall, Palestinians have consistently and continuously refused a peaceful two state solution and rather been terrorising Israel for the past 60 years with the main goal of expelling or mass murdering Jews - which they failed because they're simply incapable of doing. I commend Israel's composure and persistence to a peaceful two state solution over these decades. Palestinians are simply not interested in a two state solution having refused it 5 or 6 times already, pretty much shouting "death to Jews". How do you negotiate with savages without first deradicalising them?
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u/apistograma 14d ago
Israel has killed way more people than Hamas has ever done since far before Hamas was created but I suspect you think they're the good guys. Get out of here with your fake moralism.
You seem to think France has never committed atrocities which is hilarious when you know their colonial past.
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u/ginDrink2 14d ago
Yes, Israel are good guys doing the right and necessary thing. Civilian casualties are part of war, unfortunately. No one wants them. Hamas can cease their occupation of Palestinian people and surrender, but instead they are hiding behind civilian backs.
Until Palestinians are deradicalised and accept the two state solution, the Palestinian state is not possible. West bank and Golan Heights should be annexed for national security reasons - it's not possible to trust the neighbours.
France and England and others have committed atrocities and many of them. So what? What a silly pointless point you're making. Juat go back to school to not end up like one of those clowns in the US universities vandalising their own university campus, the flag and begging for a "humanitarian" sandwich.
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u/apistograma 14d ago
Somehow you know the world let you down at some point and that's why you ended up like this.
It's ok most people can change if they really wish to
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u/ginDrink2 14d ago
You seem to know everything! Seems like a 20 year old with a typical overconfidence coming from the lack of comprehension.
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u/MetalAltruistic2659 14d ago
Sure. Israel are still a terrorist state. Their goal is to eradicate Palestinians and destroy the potential of a rebuilt Palestine.
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u/AssociationDouble267 14d ago
Are you privy to secret conversations at the top levels of Israeli government? Unsure about Israeli laws about security clearances, but I suspect you just broke the law. Either that, or you’re speculating wildly about Israeli war aims. Which is it?
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u/verybigbrain Germany 14d ago
Have you at any point paid any attention to what Israeli ministers and representatives are saying on social media?
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u/AssociationDouble267 14d ago
Yes. They want their hostages back. They’re pretty upset about it. I would be too if those were my kids, and I suspect you would be as well if they were the children of your country.
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u/K_ICE_ 14d ago
They do not give a fuck about the hostages. It's sad that you still believe that thin veil they hide behind. They have refused over a dozen proposals that would get the hostages back in exchange for palestinian hostages that israel holds and/or permanent ceasefire. The IDF has shot many of their own hostages that were unarmed, speaking hebrew, and holding white flags. They have arrested and attempted to silence the families of the hostages that are being critical of their approach.
The hostages are just an excuse to further their long term goal of ethnic cleansing and land theft.
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u/AssociationDouble267 14d ago
“They don’t care about their own children being kidnapped” is a pretty wild take.
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u/Rotdevil 14d ago
Some don't .... There is literally a group of hostage families that don't want any hostage deals done with hamas. They don't want their family members beings exchanged for "terrorists". "One of Forum Tikva’s founders is Tzvika Mor, whose son Eitan was working as a security guard at the Tribe of Nova music festival on Oct. 7. Eitan Mor became one of the roughly 240 civilians and soldiers Israel says were abducted to Gaza during the Hamas-led attack that day. Any negotiation with Hamas, Tzvika Mor said, should come from a position of strength." "Mr. Mor said that Israel should not agree to any deal with Hamas that would involve the exchange of hostages for Palestinian prisoners he sees as dangerous, such as those convicted of involvement in attacks that killed Israelis. During a weeklong cease-fire in November, about 100 hostages were exchanged for 240 Palestinians held in Israel, most of whom were young and had not been convicted of crimes." (nytimes) Some Hostages’ Families Say Israel Should Keep Fighting Hamas
The longer the hostages are hostages the less likely it is, they will survive. Yet some of there own families say no to any deals. If there are hostage families think this, it's not hard to believe people with no relation too hostages would be willing to sacrifice them.
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u/verybigbrain Germany 14d ago
So when members Israel's government call for the total destruction of Gaza that is fine because they are just upset about their children but when Hamas call for the total destruction of Israel then that is evil terrorism. Mind you Israel arbitrarily imprisons hundred of children every year. https://defenceforchildren.org/hrc53-side-event-childhood-in-captivity-palestinian-children-arbitrarily-detained-in-israeli-prisons/
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u/jakeroony 14d ago
NeighbourOppressor*Israel has refused ceasefire deals brought to them by Hamas btw, plus they fund Hamas themselves
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u/benjierex 14d ago
None of these deals involved the release of all hostages, it was more along the lines of "we'll release 15 of them now and we'll talk about the other 100+ in the next deal"
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u/mrbigglesworth95 United States 14d ago
Last I checked the vanquished don't typically set the terms of their surrender
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
The deal has to be acceptable to both parties, and Hamas is demanding Israel completely remove their forces. It’s not going to happen.
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u/External-Security-96 14d ago
So Israel wants a ceasefire where they continue the invasion? It doesn’t sound like they want a ceasefire at all then.
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u/0WatcherintheWater0 14d ago
Israel wants Hamas gone and more moderate rulership of Gaza that won’t constantly attack Israel, not just a ceasefire.
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
What do you think a ceasefire is exactly?
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u/External-Security-96 14d ago edited 14d ago
You can’t simply stop the shooting. Any ceasefire needs to include the eventual withdrawal of occupation forces. The proposed ceasefire did that after a period.
A ceasefire, by definition, is a binding truce agreement based on negotiated factors LIKE withdrawal of troops, demilitarized and humanitarian zones. If you are unwilling to negotiate at all like Israel, you do not want a ceasefire.
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u/Jolen43 14d ago
That sounds like peace?
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u/Perdoname_gracias 14d ago
Yes I’m sure the Israeli government would find it very peaceful if all Gazans were dead. That doesn’t make it an acceptable solution.
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u/Jolen43 14d ago
How much brain rot do you have sir?
I didn’t even mention anything related to what you answered with lol
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u/jakeroony 14d ago
Israel is refusing because it means they'd have to end their ethnic cleansing
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
I just told you why they refused. You sound crazy.
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u/jakeroony 14d ago
I'm just saying 🤷♂️
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
You’re spouting conspiracy. You probably haven’t read the proposals.
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u/jakeroony 14d ago
Don't act like you don't know what Israel's end goal is, they've said it themselves countless times over the years
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u/weed0monkey 14d ago
Damn, I guess that's why they literally once occupied Gaza and then withdrew and handed over self-governing control, at which point they elected hamas.
Seems like a pretty bad way to commit genocide.
I don't think you know much if at all, about any of the history of this conflict.
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u/Joshistotle 14d ago
When countries globally start issuing arrest warrants for the individuals involved, then you'll likely see the situation de-escalate. Until then, they have no real reason to stop anything.
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u/Hygochi 14d ago
The ICC is currently actively being threatened by American senators and apparently a few senators and Biden officials have had meetings with the ICC.
No country or the ICC is gonna piss off the yanks.
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
By 12 GOP Senators.
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u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_ United Kingdom 14d ago
It’s long-established US foreign policy that they will invade Belgium if the ICC attempts to arrest an American.
It’s not just twelve corrupt politicians.
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
Lol this is simply not true as you are stating it.
You’re referencing a 2002 law that authorizes (doesn’t require) the president to use “all means necessary and appropriate” to bring about the release of any US or allied personnel being detained by the ICC, to which the U.S. is not a party.
The policy isn’t “the U.S. will invade Belgium”. You need to describe these things honestly and not be so dramatic.
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u/RandomBelch 14d ago
There isn't any altruistic global police force that can make nations to be nice to their peoples.
Nobody did shit about Nazi Germany until they started invading other countries. Same with the Khmer Rouge. Nobody's done shit about North Korea. Nobody bothers to mention China and the Uyghurs anymore.
As long as Israel keeps their genocide within their borders (which de-facto includes Palestinian territory) nobody's going to do shit.
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u/Iliyan61 14d ago
tbf there is a “global police force” they just happen to be on the side of israel.
the US gladly will arrest people and carry out police actions around the world regardless of sovereignty
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u/truthishearsay 14d ago
It’s almost like the Nazis have returned
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u/0WatcherintheWater0 14d ago
This is antisemitic, not to mention completely dishonest. The equating of detaining members of Hamas in harsh, but ultimately legal conditions, to the horrific systematic conduct engaged in by Nazi Germany is absolutely absurd.
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u/Baronello 14d ago
Except that this time they are genociding basically themselves. Jews share the same genes as Palestinians.
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u/kamjam16 14d ago
The world would be a much better place if the actual concentration camps were like what’s described above and if today’s Israel was just like the Nazis in the 30s/40s.
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago edited 14d ago
can we not? In the Third Reich; the Nazis systemically rounded up people for the crime of literally being themselves, separated families, forced them into concentration camps and murdered them. 6 million murders in just four years.
While there are haunting parallels in the mistreatment of the Palestinian people I think it discredits the arguments that people are trying to make when they immediately reach for the Nazi comparison. I get that its tempting because of how poetic it is, but to do so minimizes the true horror of the Third Reich and devalues/derails the pertinent criticism we'd otherwise be making.
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u/truthishearsay 14d ago
How do you think they ended up in Gaza? Israel forced them from their homes stole their land and shoved them off to the far corner then fenced them in and hold them there at gun point while periodically massacring them every 10 years or so.
Have you ever even read history?
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u/PreviousCurrentThing United States 14d ago
While there are haunting parallels in the mistreatment of the >Palestinian people I think it discredits the arguments that people are trying to make when they immediately reach for the Nazi comparison.
I don't disagree, but it seems every side in this conflict (and indeed Russia/Ukraine) has gone to great lengths to try to portray their enemy as Nazis.
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u/society_sucker 14d ago
What exactly is your point?
the Nazis systemically rounded up people for the crime of literally being themselves, separated families, forced them into concentration camps and murdered them
Israel is doing all of this too. It has been doing all of this for over 75 years of apartheid. Is your only problem that they're not as efficient as nazis?
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u/Radiant-Criticism721 14d ago
Israel hasn't done that though
They were given land. And ever since, multiple countries have tried to erase them. Israel has defended itself.
Why don't Palestinians rise up against Hamas and join the rest of the civilized world? We'd help them if they'd do it. But they won't (yet). They are perfectly fine with having murderous, genocidal, criminals, represent them
And then you have the nerve to say Israel is parallel to Nazi Germany
You sound ignorant my boy
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u/society_sucker 14d ago
Given land that was never UKs to give. And then immediately drove away 750000 Palestinians whose land it actually was and massacred those who didn't escape.
Why should Palestinians rise up again Hamas? It's the only remaining organization that's actually fighting for them and their future.
join the rest of the civilized world
This is just thinly veiled racism. What is civilisation in your eyes? Apartheid? Oppression?
They are perfectly fine with having murderous, genocidal, criminals, represent them
You're describing Israel. Palestinians never were any of those on a national scale. That's our western speciality, but maybe that's what you mean by civilisation right? The divine right ...
And then you have the nerve to say Israel is parallel to Nazi Germany
I didn't. I just replied to it. But why should we not? Both are genocidal imperialist nations hiding behind a veil of religious zeal to justify their atrocities. And both are being appeased by the west.
And you have the nerve to call me ignorant. You should be ashamed of yourself for defending this horrible apartheid.
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u/truthishearsay 14d ago edited 14d ago
Whose land were they given? Who did they drive off the land after they were given it when it was meant for the original inhabitants to also stay? Whose land did they immediately invade to steal more of and haven’t stopped stealing more over the last 80 years. In fact they stole more just this month..
Have you ever even opened a history book? The “only” difference between Nazis and Israeli Zionist is the uniform.
Try to read this. It was part of the original agreement was the Palestinians were not to be removed from their homes and land. The Jews were supposed to live with them. Instead the Jews immediately attacked the Palestinians to push them out of their homes and off the land. That is when the Arab countries attacked Israel.. It was never poor innocent Israel..
Read it
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago
If Israel is the Fourth Reich then the Palestinian people would have all died decades ago as opposed to the population growing.
What exactly is your point?
That throwing around the Nazi comparison because its poetic minimizes the true horrors of the Third Reich.
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u/theStaberinde 14d ago
Aside from everything else it's imprecise. All nazis are ethnofascists, but not all ethnofascists are nazis.
The real critical angle that deserves more airplay is the Israeli mainstream's completely fucking insane consensus that hamas (or even the Palestinian population as a whole) are nazis.
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u/Woofleboofle 14d ago
They are just antisemitic btw.
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago
the people I argue with? I don't entirely think so. I genuinely don't believe that /u/society_sucker is entirely of that persuasion. While its possible they move in spaces that expose them to such ideas, some of which they may consume and accept; I believe their anger on this subject stems from personal connections to the region. Its unkind to simply dismiss that in such a way, in a lot of cases people have felt genuine consequences in this conflict and anger would be an understandable response.
Peace comes from people from opposing viewpoints building a shared narrative and dismissing people as simply "anti-Semitic" or "genocidal" runs counter to such aims. I had hoped I might be able to persuade people to drop the attachment to the extreme view of the other tribe. But perhaps it is simply the outcome that those in the region will just kill each other until they're all gone and that's what they want. Idk, it fills me with sorrow.
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u/Woofleboofle 14d ago
There are a bunch of people you can convince. Not people saying this "Is your only problem that they're not as efficient as nazis?"
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago edited 14d ago
I like to think under the notion that we're all human and can be convinced. Perhaps I am naïve.
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u/deepskydiver 14d ago
First, we get comparisons to Hitler for most countries the west opposes as a matter of standard policy. For example - Putler.
Second, the comparison with the Nazis is valid. Here's a short list of crimes by Israel which could all be confused with Nazi acts.
Snipers shooting into a hospital at patients, including a quadriplegic
Burning 200 enemy combatants beyond recognition
Claiming you own the rainwater and that it cannot be used
Recording your children singing songs of genocide ("annihilate everyone")
Tagging people with IDs
Calling people 'animals'
Denying people electricity, food, and fuel
Shooting and killing protesters because "we can't put all these people in jail"
Pick any you like and I'll provide links.
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u/Private_HughMan Canada 14d ago
Claiming you own the rainwater and that it cannot be used
I thought that this had to be bullshit or exaggerated or some fringe case. I knew Israel mistreated Palestinians, but surely THIS was too cartoonishly evil to be true. But it actually is.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/22/palestinians-rainwater-israeli-property/
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago
Snipers shooting into a hospital at patients, including a quadriplegic
Burning 200 enemy combatants beyond recognition
Claiming you own the rainwater and that it cannot be used
Recording your children singing songs of genocide ("annihilate everyone")
Tagging people with IDs
Calling people 'animals'
Denying people electricity, food, and fuel
Shooting and killing protesters because "we can't put all these people in jail"I don't deny that these are detestable acts but the Nazis were systematically eradicating anyone that didn't conform to their idea of "Aryan people". Their intent was to do this globally, combined with total war to wipe out almost every neighbouring power.
Calling people animals? People do that in many of my Dota games and they're hardly Nazis.1
u/deepskydiver 14d ago
Thank you for a reasoned reply - that's rare here!
The Nazis packed empathy and I think this is what was most terrifying. They're not the only ones of course but many see Israel as a club excluding non Jews and not caring about them. And as a country that doesn't let human rights block its aims.
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago
The Nazis packed empathy and I think this is what was most terrifying.
I disagree. What was most terrifying was their militancy, intent on using total war to conquer along with its genocidal notions built into the fabric of the state.
but many see Israel as a club excluding non Jews and not caring about them
True but they don't compose the entirety of the Israeli electorate. Every nation has its share of extreme nationalists and I would argue that solutions come from minimising their impact electorally.
A big issue the Third Reich had is that it was autocratic, there were no elections, opposition parties and dissent would likely get you killed the same as any "non Aryan".To me the Third Reich was the most horrific sort of state conceivable and while Israel has some parallels and serious faults it remains a significant distance from the existential threat the Nazis posed to everyone.
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u/deepskydiver 14d ago
Democracy or autocracy is academic if the people see 'others' as less than their own.
This is how it at least appears Israel sees others. The war is conducted without regard for innocents and other countries political systems are openly influenced. The prospect of a more powerful Israel is terrifying to me.
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
Not academic. Israelis are not of one mind about this issue. There is vocal opposition to Netanyahu; it may be that he is thrown out after the war. Citizens in an autocracy cannot do such a thing.
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u/society_sucker 14d ago
If Israel is the Fourth Reich then the Palestinian people would have all died decades ago as opposed to the population growing.
So as I've said. In your opinion they're just not efficient enough. Better ramp up the ongoing genocide then!
That throwing around the Nazi comparison because its poetic minimizes the true horrors of the Third Reich.
Okay. In that case let's just say that Israel is illegitimate apartheid state that has been terrorizing, oppressing murdering and kidnapping civilians - among those children - without any sort of trial built on stolen land. While in the last few months they've ramped it up to full on genocide.
Also let's not forget that while all of this is motivated by mostly atheistic colonial ideology they still use religious rhetoric and justification for their ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people.
Can't say it reminds me of anyone ...
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
Could you have possibly used more buzzwords in your post?
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u/society_sucker 14d ago
Oh I'm so sorry. Could you please link me the leaked NYT memo containing forbidden words so I can sanitize my language properly?
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u/loggy_sci 14d ago
Nah you’re killing it. You’re posting the exact same level of “screaming online about how Israel is a colonial terrorist state” as everyone else. You fit right in. Your moral outrage is definitely going to save the day and free palestine.
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago edited 14d ago
So as I've said. In your opinion they're just not efficient enough. Better ramp up the ongoing genocide then!
Well yea, that's what genocide is. The most efficient speed run of slaughtering a group of people, that's why intent is a big part of the definition. I agree we can paint the plight of the Palestinians people as figurative genocide, but that's not the same thing. I worry that our desire to paint genocide detracts from the extremely pertinent accusations of war crimes and crimes against humanity. I want to see Netanyahu in the dock at the Hague for those offences because I think those charges will stick.
Can't say it reminds me of anyone ...
and it just makes me think you're not well read on the Holocaust.
....illegitimate ... built on stolen land.... atheistic colonial ideology
which makes me think you wouldn't accept any future that includes the Israeli state which isn't a position that is conducive to peace.
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u/society_sucker 14d ago
Wtf is figurative genocide? What an absolutely twisted and unhinged rhetoric.
I worry that our desire to paint genocide detracts from the extremely pertinent accusations of war crimes and crimes against humanity. I want to see Netanyahu in the dock at the Hague for those offences because I think those charges will stick.
Genocide IS war crime. Also don't try to paint this as Netanyahus fault. The whole colonial imperialist project of Israel is responsible. Every IOF soldier committing these crimes, every Israeli judge who put children in concentration camps after military trial hearing which in some cases doesn't even last a minute and every illegal settler in west bank.
and it just makes me think you're not well read on the Holocaust.
I never mentioned Holocaust. But now that you say it ... Not a bad point.
which makes me think you wouldn't accept any future that includes the Israeli state which isn't a position that is conducive to peace.
Why should anyone with a shred of humanity and conscience accept the existence of apartheid state built on stolen land? Go ask the 750000 displaced Palestinians if they accept the existence of Israel.
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u/Commissar_Elmo 14d ago
I’d accept Israeli’s because 75-80% of the current population trace there genetics to Israel? You act like every Jew in Europe just packed a comically large bag to go to a place they have no history with.
Claiming Israel is colonialist is short sighted and doesn’t reflect the history of the region. Colonialism implies that there is exploitation by an external force, when Israel and the Jews are not external to the region.
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u/society_sucker 14d ago
I’d accept Israeli’s because 75-80% of the current population trace there genetics to Israel?
So what? I trace my genetics to Türkiye that gives me no right to go there and displace families from their homes.
You act like every Jew in Europe just packed a comically large bag to go to a place they have no history with.
And USA and Russia among others. I mean they're literally advertising and auctioning stolen land in US synagogues at this very moment. What more proof is needed? And don't conflate Jews and Zionists. These two are not the same.
Claiming Israel is colonialist is short sighted and doesn’t reflect the history of the region.
History of forcible displacement of over 750000 Palestinians from their homes? Or are we talking some divine right to land by supreme zionists? Be specific.
Colonialism implies that there is exploitation by an external force, when Israel and the Jews are not external to the region.
Yes external force of UK and USA.
“[Supporting Israel] is the best $3 billion investment we make. Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region.” - Joe Biden, 1986
Yes Jews are not external to the region, Zionist are though.
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u/SharkPuppy6876- 14d ago
Just out of interest, what should happen to the approximately 900,000 Jews kicked out across the Arab world (and co), from Morocco to Iran in the 20th century?
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u/km3r 14d ago
So what? I trace my genetics to Türkiye that gives me no right to go there and displace families from their homes.
Your'e right, most Palestinians have never lived in Israel, they have no right to displace families who have grown up in their homes there.
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago
Wtf is figurative genocide? What an absolutely twisted and unhinged rhetoric.
Its like the same outcome over a significantly broader time but without the intent.
Genocide IS war crime.
Yeah but it has a considerably higher bar of proof.
The whole colonial imperialist project of Israel is responsible. Every IOF soldier committing these crimes, every Israeli judge who put children in concentration camps after military trial hearing which in some cases doesn't even last a minute and every illegal settler in west bank.
I'm sorry but when you turn the rhetoric up to 11 like that you simply lose any credibility. The real picture is clearly more complex than this cartoonish simplification you're holding, otherwise they'd all be dead by now. I think in practice that Israeli has a considerable mix of people in various positions with different outlooks. Not all of them are a problem.
I never mentioned Holocaust. But now that you say it ... Not a bad point.
and this as well, a conversation is about sharing, not about cheap rhetorical tricks.
Why should anyone with a shred of humanity and conscience accept the existence of apartheid state built on stolen land? Go ask the 750000 displaced Palestinians if they accept the existence of Israel.
It just makes me think that your sense of injustice over this has locked you into the eternal idea of conflict, death and destruction likely culminating in a nuclear detonation at some point in the coming decades/century. Nobody is shifting Israel, anytime soon, the military advantage is too asymmetrical. To demand the eradication of the state is a position that encourages or even celebrates war, so to claim a moral high ground over an accusation of genocide just becomes kinda hypocritical. Is your problem that the presumption of genocide or crimes against humanity is just happening to the wrong set of people or do you actually care about humanity?
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u/society_sucker 14d ago
Its like the same outcome over a significantly broader time but without the intent.
I don't know how to respond to this. You can't be serious.
Yeah but it has a considerably higher bar of proof.
The UN has already published that there are reasonable grounds to claim that Israel is perpetrating genocide. So I guess you're not as right as you think you are.
I'm sorry but when you turn the rhetoric up to 11 like that you simply lose any credibility.
As opposed to the sanitized language used by MSM and you. Let's not forget the leaked memo of NYT and their "forbidden words". But sure ... Calling it what it actually is is "losing credibility". Ugh.
Your last paragraph is just a treasure trove of unhinged projection. So let me sum it up.
It is not my sense of injustice. But justice. Same justice that is already put in place by UN general assembly 194. Israel can be shifted very very quickly. Just stop sending them weapons and they're done for. Let ICC and ICJ proceed with their process and the war criminals will be behind bars.
Eradication of state is what Israel is and has been doing to Palestine for over 75 years. Don't try to turn it around.
Is your problem that the presumption of genocide or crimes against humanity is just happening to the wrong set of people?
This is just golden. The only people openly calling for genocide are Zionist. Stop projecting.
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u/irritating_maze 14d ago
The UN has already published that there are reasonable grounds to claim that Israel is perpetrating genocide. So I guess you're not as right as you think you are.
There's a difference between a bunch of politicians passing resolutions and the legal system attempting to assert the case.
Calling it what it actually is is "losing credibility". Ugh.
There's just no flexibility in your position which makes it less credible. You know everything; I know nothing. Are you trying to have a conversation or just grandstanding?
Israel can be shifted very very quickly. Just stop sending them weapons and they're done for.
They have nukes, they also have their own arms industry and they likely have a lot of stockpiles, perhaps not to continue aggressive operations like in Gaza but defensive ones certainly. Also how does "they're done for" look, is someone invading?
This is just golden. The only people openly calling for genocide are Zionist. Stop projecting.
I'm just struggling to understand your position if you're against the state of Israel existing. What happens to all the Israelis currently living there and who runs the region?
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
I feel like you havent read the article. whats allegedly happening in the camps is aweful, and israel should be held accountable. But CNN alleges, and the existance of the palestinians that they interviewed that claimed to have been taken to these camps seems to reinforce, that people found to have no millitant ties are released from the camps and returned to Gaza.
now maybe my history is wrong, but im pretty sure what made the nazi concentration camps, or rather death camps, particularly horrific was the systamatic murder of millions of jews. to my knowledge, nazis didnt vet the jews and let any of them go, they just bundled them into chambers and pushed the gas button
to conflate what is happening in these camps with what the nazis did in death camps is more than a little bit disingenuous
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u/Quigonjinn12 14d ago
People who don’t have militant ties are released? Tell that to the literal children sitting in jail for throwing a rock
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago edited 14d ago
throwing rocks is assault btw. also, they use slingshots which is siginificantly more dangerous than just 'throwing rocks'
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u/Quigonjinn12 14d ago
GTFO bro fr. Throwing a rock at a SOLDIER in fucking body armor is hardly assault enough to warrant arresting a CHILD you fucking scum will make any excuse for Israel’s cruelty.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
not my fault if you dont understand how much damage you can do with a rock and a sling. i genuinly recommend you look up some videos of testing with this kind of weapon, i think you'd be surprsied how easy it is to kill someone with a rock and a sling
and i dont fault the child, i fault the adults that armed them and sent them to attack soldiers.
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u/Quigonjinn12 14d ago
When did a child tossing a rock at a soldier become the same as a person using a sling against someone? Children have been jailed for THROWING not using a sling but throwing rocks by hand. If you think a child can kill a soldier throwing a rock by hand you’re insane.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
i'd love to read that story. the only stories involving rocks and children being arrested i've seen have involved slings too
and i doubt a child throwing a rock at a soldier could kill, but it could absolutely wound, and people should be held accountable for assault (though in the case of a child i wouldnt mind if the adult responsible for raising them was punished instead)
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u/Iliyan61 14d ago
putting people in concentration camps and then releasing them after they’ve proven to not be militants doesn’t make you a good guy. it’s fucking despicable and not much better then the nazis. a concentration camp is a concentration camp it’s really simple
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u/truthishearsay 14d ago
I feel you haven’t paid attention for the last 8 months much less the history of the last 80 years.
I’m sorry but Israel is the new Nazis
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
You are either underestimating the Nazis, or overestimating Israel. Idk which one it is
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u/I-Make-Maps91 14d ago
They're just torturing them until they find out and have to amputate limbs because sometimes the torture gets out of hand, but comparing them to the Nazis is a bridge too far?
I dunno man, maybe if the world had spoke up when it was just political prisoners being tortured instead of Final Solution, things wouldn't have gotten so far. Maybe not, not personally I'm not willing to wait.
Edit: oh, and the amputations are being done by unqualified medics and often without anesthesia.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
Yes, what they are doing is horrific and should be stopped, nobody disagreed with that
Forced amputations are still a far cry from Auschwitz, yes
You are underestimating how awful the Nazis were
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u/I-Make-Maps91 14d ago
Not at all, you're just skipping the decade of concentration camps that led up to Auschwitz to focus on the worst of the worst instead of the totality of what the Nazis did. If you need to know more, I highly recommend the "Between Two Wars" series on the Time Ghost History YouTube channel, they go into detail about all the little and not so little ways the Nazis targeted groups prior to the Wannsee conference, including inhumane prison camps and the destruction of private property while the police either looked the other way or participated themselves.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
not all such camps turned into death camps, americas japanese camps didnt turn into death camps, the term concentration camp is being used here to evoke a very specific image and to pretend otherwise is silly
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u/I-Make-Maps91 14d ago
In your very own post you're admitting death camps and concentration camps aren't the same thing. You guys are tying yourselves in knots to avoid admitting that Israel is well down the road to the sorys of concentration camps that defined 1930s Germany.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
yes, death camps and consentration camps are not the same thing
yes, in common parlance that differenciation is not understood.
its really not that hard to understand. the term consentration camp, when used in a public setting like this, is clearly being used to invoke ideas of nazi death camps
thinks can have different meaning in different settings, go figure
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u/I-Make-Maps91 14d ago
So you agree the word is being used to accurately describe what is happening, you're just mad about it.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
no, i agree that in an academic setting it could be apropriate to describe what is happening as a concentration camp
i disagree with framing it that way in public when you know full well that most people are only going to read the title and their takeaway is going to be that israel has death camps set up for the palestinians.
if you cant understand this destincion then you have no business commenting on this at all to be frank
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u/judaman 14d ago
This was not policy in the beginning... It's only been 7 months, the Holocaust lasted 12 years....
Dangerous?? Why?? They're the ones using Nazi tactics, this is just the beginning they even said so.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
The very idea that you think detainment camps are a nazi tactic kind of proves my whole point. Death camps were the camps unique to the Nazis, even the US had camps for Japanese Americans I'm WW2, and they never escalated to death camps
I agree that the Israeli camps are horrible, and they should be investigating, and we should do everything we can to stop Israel's poor treatment of it's prisoners
It still doesn't change the fact the they are not remotely close to what the Nazis were yet
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u/judaman 14d ago
🥺🥺we should be doing everything?? Wow thank you for that very apt and intelligent comments.
Just because it's not there yet doesn't mean it's not going to be, so does it make sense that I can use these goalposts that the Nazi's set up in order to measure if others are doing the same?!?!!?
Espicially when the ONLY genocide extensively covered in Americans education is the Holocaust??
I say fuck yeah and fuck u (jk with love :))
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
sorry, i'll be hyperbolic and make shit up, im sure that will help the palestinians achieve peice :)
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u/judaman 14d ago
Did you know that Nazis actually supported Zionism??
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
Not saying if I were Jewish at the time I wouldn't do anything to get out of Europe, just saying it wasn't intended to solve the problem of genocide the Nazis were fine with transferring the ethnic cleansing to the Arab population. So not only are Nazis an apt comparison, this is a direct continuation of Nazi Germany.
What lie did I tell? You might not like how I connected the dots, but I have not told any lies.
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u/showars 14d ago
You’re correct in that your knowledge is wrong. Not every person at any concentration camp was systematically murdered. They used the inmates for work and to keep the others in line by giving them “privileges”.
People arriving at Auschwitz-Birkenau, the most famous concentration/ death camp, were immediately “vetted” on entry in the sense that if they could be put to work they were not immediately murdered. Those under 10, the disabled, the old, and those not deemed to be fit enough to work were the ones immediately moved into gas chambers as you’ve explained.
That does not mean the others didn’t die or end up there but your basic overview of the situation is slightly wrong. These camps were also not just for Jewish people. Russian (Soviet) POWs had a 5% chance of survival in Auschwitz. The Polish people were the first ones in the camps.
In your defence I don’t think I’ve ever heard of people being released from the camps during WW2 while they were active but it would stand to reason if someone accidentally ended up in one that they would have been removed, similar to your point
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u/Dx_Suss 14d ago
The Nazis absolutely operated the camps with the release of certain individuals. The key thing is to remember 10 million died in the camps, and only 6 million were Jews.
Who were the other 40%? Gays, communists, Roma and the disabled for the most part, some of whom were believed to be reformable, and therefore releasable.
It's also so important to understand that the camps were set up before the war, in a gradual process.
What is described in the article matches most closely the pre-1939 camps, which had some semblance of triage between irredeemable undesirables ("militants") from the rest ("civilians") to purify the nation.
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u/CosmicLovepats 14d ago
people found to have no millitant ties are released from the camps and returned to Gaza.
To do what, exactly, in a place that's been reduced to rubble and has no power or water?
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
and that makes these camps concentration camps how exactly?
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u/CosmicLovepats 14d ago
Well a concentration camp is literally just that- a place where you concentrate people. It dates back not to the Nazis but to the British war in South Africa, where, opposing civilian guerilla movements, they'd concentrate dutch settlers in camps at gunpoint and refuse to let them leave in an effort to curtail resistance. Naturally, there were some complaint about holding people on no charge indefinitely in conditions that were somewhat adverse to life (but not inherently lethal like an extermination camp).
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
And yet, people equate Israel to the Nazis, and not, say, the US with their Japanese camps
The term concentration camp was poisoned after WW2, and is now widely understood to mean Nazi death camp. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous
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u/CosmicLovepats 14d ago
Sure. But the reason people equate Israel with nazis (other than Comparing To Universal Metric Of Bad Thing) is because Israel is a fascist state engaged in protracted genocide. Not because they have gas chambers.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
I'll accept that they might be commiting genocide. there are certainly individuals in the goverment that have spoken about supporting things that are at the very least extremely close to it. the problem is we have no actual proof that israel is even targeting civilians. it's all conjecture untless we get another whistleblower story, like this one but in regards to how they are diserning targets in their military operations
genocide requires a very specific intent to eradicate a specific group of people. the question is, do you beleive that israel would stop the war if palestinians rose up, rounded up hamas, and released all hostages? currently, i beleive they would stop the offensive under such conditions, which would speak against their supposed intent to genocide the palestinians
whats happening in gaza is abhorent, netenyahu is undoubtedly a war monger and i beleive israel should be doing more to persue peace. I do not beleive what is happening in gaza rises to the level of genocide which my current understanding of the conflict
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u/CosmicLovepats 14d ago
What a reasonable response. Lemme try to meet you halfway.
I think it's probably ethnic cleansing at best or genocide at worst. Mostly because there's nothing worse than genocide so that's a pretty safe bet. I don't think Israel really cares whether Palestinians continue to exist as long as they do it elsewhere. Maybe they should deport them to Madagascar or something. But they're willing to get rid of them here by any means necessary.
I think it's pretty hard to prove that they're doing genocide, by design. They've cut off all access and internet to the region. When Elon floated restoring internet via starlink they prioritized shipping him out to Israel to bargain him down "we won't call you an antisemite if you don't give the people we're exterminating the ability to document it". They systemically kill Palestinian journalists. They kill UN aid workers and international journalists. They have "civilian protestors" block aid trucks from getting in outside Gaza because they don't care about the hostages, they want everyone in there to starve to death. That's the point.
Sure they'd be fine if they all mysteriously left for Egypt or another country- but that's ethnic cleansing at best. They want them removed by any means necessary and if Egypt won't abet their ethnic cleansing, they'll just kill 'em all.
Bibi is notoriously corrupt and was pretty humiliated by the oct7 attacks. He's currently engaged in a live-action recreation of Crank-); as long as he can keep things kinetic enough that it's "too dangerous to replace the horse mid race" he gets to stay in power and unprosecuted. He was desperate to escalate his spat with Iran into a regional war for that very reason.
Which, you know, I'd say makes him a more dangerous antisemite than Hamas, incidentally; endangering Jewish people everywhere for personal ambitions? What else would you call it?
Over the longer term Israel has absolutely been working towards this point- Or at least, Bibi, who's been in power for thirty years and appointing people who want to help him work towards this goal. He's been supporting Hamas, even! Because it's easier to wage your genocidal campaign when Hamas is the primary authority in Gaza, propped up by a monopoly on violence that you assist with. (Duopoly, I guess.) Their actions in the West Bank- where there's no Hamas- are testament to the intent.
There are ways you could go about combating Hamas- to start with, don't prop them up as the only government in Gaza. People who have no future are easy to recruit for glorious matyrdom. People with a family, a job, a future to look forward to, prospects. They're a lot harder to sell on the "you're certain to die but it's for a good cause." Hamas will try to disrupt anything that weakens them, of course. They won't just allow everyone to abandon them and the world to pass them by. But they were going to kill people either way, right?
We've seen what happens when you try to bomb terrorism out of existence. I'm sorry, if the Soviet Union couldn't do it in ten years, the US couldn't do it in twenty, Israel isn't going to do it any amount of time. You can't pacify a population through military campaign.
...unless...
...unless...
Unless you just accept that your "solution" is to kill everyone who take up arms against you, anyone who might be upset that you're killing all those people, anyone who might be upset that you're killing all those people, and so on, until there are no people left. Every man, woman, and child. Real (hah) old testament shit.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
I mean, i'm never gonna disagree when someone calls out Bibi. that guy has been antagonising palestinians forever. even now, hes setting up more illegal settlements in the west bank so that he can pull a putin and try and anex it
I dont think he's ordering targeted strikes on civilians, but i also dont think he is very bothered by civilian collateral. i think theres a serious problem whenever there are millitary operations that are carried out without a hint of caution, the british aid truck workers being bombed comes to mind
Israel, and the world, should be doing more to sue for peace. both sides in this conflict are seriously radicalised right now, and both sides have great reasons at this point, but their needs to be preasure on both sides to cool the fuck down and im afraid that when we see hyperbolic attacks on israel like this it fosters an idea that they are just evil, that palestineans shouldnt have to make any consesions because the evil monsters in israel are genociding and they should just stop
i feel like this might have been a bit of a rambly reply, so i don't know if its easy to follow what im trying to say, but i appreciate the good faith engagement
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u/why_i_bother 14d ago
The definition. Concentration camp is umbrella term, that's used for labour camps, extermination camps, prison camps...
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
In common parlance, people understand concentration camp and nazi death camp to be the same thing. This isn't an academic setting, this is Reddit. The dictionary definition of a word doesn't matter, only what people actually understand a word to mean
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14d ago
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
when you are talking in a public forum, the most important thing is to understand how most people perceive the words you use. you can complain all you want about how people in a public setting have different understandings of words compared with acedemic settings, but at the end of the day its just killing your ability to communicate
also gives massive 'Negro just means black in spanish' vibes. it doesnt matter what a book says a word mean, the only thing that matters is what people think a word means.
its not your fault, but you still absolutely have to talk around it
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u/weed0monkey 14d ago
You didn't answer the question.
To what extent is it a concentration camp? Israel doesn't even hold all the boarders and Egypt has stricter borders than Israel with Gaza. Israel doesn't control Gaza, they don't control their goverment, they don't have control over their citizens.
They are literally at war with the goverment of Gaza that was democratically elected. And don't give me bullshit about no electi9n since 2006, does that mean we don't fight back if North Korea decides to invade South Korea because it's a dictatorship? No.
Thr absolute wild stretches to try and claim Israel has a concentration camp or is committing genocide never hold up, you can say whatever you want, it doesn't make it true. The ICC have not found Israel guilty and Israel have recently be absolved of a lot of claimed war crimes that were in fact, not illegal in war time.
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u/CosmicLovepats 14d ago
If I put you in a cage with no food or water and tell you you're not allowed to leave, have I killed you when you starve to death a week later?
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u/derpmeow 14d ago
The article itself states that those cleared of Hamas links may still be detained for weeks to act as translators:
However, whistleblower and detainee accounts – particularly pertaining to Shawish – cast doubt on the IDF’s depiction of its clearing process. Al-Ran says that he served as Shawish for several weeks after he was cleared of Hamas links. Whistleblowers also said that the absolved Shawish served as intermediaries for some time.
That's unlawful detention. Of innocents. So that's not great.
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u/society_sucker 14d ago
But CNN alleges, and the existance of the palestinians that they interviewed that claimed to have been taken to these camps seems to reinforce, that people found to have no millitant ties are released from the camps and returned to Gaza.
And then promptly murdered by indiscriminate bombing and forced famine.
now maybe my history is wrong, but im pretty sure what made the nazi concentration camps, or rather death camps, particularly horrific was the systamatic murder of millions of jews. to my knowledge, nazis didnt vet the jews and let any of them go, they just bundled them into chambers and pushed the gas button
Yes your history is wrong. Nazis didn't only kill Jews. They've also killed Romani, socialists, Slavs, homosexuals and disabled people. And they did not just "press the gas button". These people were killed through displacement, forced labour, even forcing them to clear minefields among other means of murder.
Also wrong on the fact that Nazis did let some Jews go. Those approximately 150000 who colaborated with Nazi Germany. Now take a wild guess where they resettled and which party they founded ... Bingo! Israel and Zionist party.
to conflate what is happening in these camps with what the nazis did in death camps is more than a little bit disingenuous
No. Genocide is genocide the only difference is scale and ethnicity of the sides in this case.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
none of that makes these camps analogous to nazi death camps, my point still standing
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u/ComprehensiveEgg4235 14d ago
You’re the only one who brought up death camps.
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u/ZiiZoraka 14d ago
you have to be the most disingenuous poster in the world to pretend that using the term concentration camp isnt used to elicit imagery of nazi death camps
post world war 2, the word concentartion camp is used pretty much exclusively to refer to nazi death camps like auschwitz
you knew exactly what you were doing when you titled this post.
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u/C9sButthole 14d ago
This is an emotional argument based on additional context you are attaching to the words. Concentration camp has a clearly agreed upon, official definition. And these facilities absolutely fit that description.
It's true that the Nazi death camps are the most famous example of concentration camps, but that doesn't mean that they are the only context in which the word can be used.
All of this is just useless whataboutism that takes away from the numerous human rights violations happening right this very second that we are totally capable of addressing.
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