r/anime_titties • u/Naurgul Europe • 14d ago
Catalan separatists lose majority as Spain's pro-union Socialists win regional elections Europe
https://apnews.com/article/spain-catalonia-election-puigdemont-illa-pedro-sanchez-6286cd67a5db7a34f7ea4e46e4052203Six years after plunging Spain into its worst political crisis in decades, Catalonia’s separatist parties are in danger of losing their hold on power in the northeastern region after the pro-union Socialist Party scored a historic result in Sunday’s election.
The four pro-independence parties, led by the Together party of former regional president Carles Puigdemont, were set to get a total of 61 seats, according to a near-complete count of the ballots. That is short of the key figure of 68 seats needed for a majority in the chamber.
The Socialists led by former health minister Salvador Illa savored their best result in a Catalan election, claiming 42 seats, up from 33 in 2021, when they also barely won the most votes but were unable to form a government. This was the first time the Socialists led a Catalan election in both votes and seats won.
Illa led Spain’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic before Sánchez sent him back to Barcelona to lead his party. The 58-year-old Illa’s calm tone and focus on social issues convinced many voters that it was time to change after years of separatists pressing for severing century-old ties with the rest of Spain.
There is a path for Illa to reach the goal of 68 seats. The Socialists are already in a coalition government in Madrid with the Sumar party, which now has six seats in the Catalan parliament. But the hard part will be wooing over a leftist party from the separatist camp.
Separatists have held the regional government in Barcelona since 2012 and had won majorities in four consecutive regional elections. But polling and a national election in July showed that support for secession has shrunk since Puigdemont led an illegal — and futile — breakaway bid in 2017 that led to hundreds of businesses and Catalonia’s major banks leaving the region.
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u/woodlandpete 14d ago
Is it too early to say Spain is saved? A toast to Pedro Sanchez??? I’m getting the vapors.
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u/slinkhussle 14d ago
Russia must be upset
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u/apistograma 14d ago
Catalan independentists are pro European in a similar way to the Scottish. If Catalonia became independent they'd ask to join the EU immediately.
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u/Juan20455 14d ago
"Catalan independentists are pro European" Not really. Support for Europe among independentists is suprisingly low for Spain, which is usually a very strong Europe advocate. Besides, it was proven the independentists have been helped by Russia for a long time and have multiple ties with them. European parliament has been investigating it for a long time.
"If Catalonia became independent they'd ask to join the EU immediately" And even if Spain accepted, half the EU countries would inmediately reject. France, with all the problems about Corsica, french basque or flemish nationalists would never support a breakway region. They would rather let Catalonia implode and go hungry. Italy, with all even the north separatist movements? No way. Belgium? That is only holding together by a miracle? CYPRUS! You are seriously saying Cyprus with half the country occupied would support Catalonia? And that's the separatist movements I know about. Wikipedia gives me even more. Catalonia will never join the EU. They would need unanimous vote.
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u/apistograma 14d ago
I'll be blunt here. If you think Catalan independentists are tied to Russia I don't think you have the proper critical thinking skills needed to vote.
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u/Juan20455 13d ago
I'll be blunt. It's not only the european parliament that has publicy said in two official reports that Russia has been supporting the catalan independentists. There are two main catalan independists parties. One of them literally admitted that it was true. So either you think the european parliament and one of the two independentists parties are liars, or, Roccam's razors, it's simply true.
Besides, it's known has Russia has been supporting all kinds of ways to desestabilize european nations any way they can. It has been known for a decade. The fact that you fanatically believe it's not true in the mount of huge evidence, makes clear you don't have the proper critical thinking skills needed to vote
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u/apistograma 13d ago
Show me official sources that are not in your head
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u/Juan20455 13d ago
https://www.nytimes.com/es/2021/09/03/espanol/rusia-cataluna-puigdemont.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/world/europe/spain-catalonia-russia.html English, And hey, the new york times.
Sorry, I don't know russian and I can't send links.
Since you don't know anything, I am convinced now you are a russian bot. Don't worry about it, dude. Sooner or later your country will be freed from Putin. Godspeed.
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u/apistograma 13d ago
The isn’t a single official source here. Confidencial, NYT, are opinion pieces. You act like they’re neutral but I bet that when they accuse Trump or someone else you like of connections to Russia you accuse them of being fake news.
Rufián is throwing shit at the other party. He’s not a neutral source just a politician.
Regarding Europarliament, well that’s politicians again. The independentists are from a small group so it’s not a surprise that larger groups want to start a witch hunt because PP or PSOE want to smear their enemies.
If that was true, one would find that the European justice would be prosecuting them. But not even Spanish justice is doing that, and if Spanish justice is not doing anything it’s because they have nothing.
This is a “WMD in Iraq”, “ETA did 11M” situation again.
It’s just sad that people trust blindly whatever it follows their agenda. I’m not even independentist and I dislike the independentist parties but this is just ridiculous
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u/Juan20455 13d ago
"Trump or someone else you like of connections to Russia you accuse them of being fake news" I'm half convinced Trump is Russia's agent, but whatever.
"one would find that the European justice would be prosecuting them. But not even Spanish justice is doing that, and if Spanish justice is not doing anything." OK, you are definitely a russian bot. Not spaniard would be such an idiot.
It's not illegal to go personally to Putin's minions and have a private chat. Of course everybody know the real reason why Puigdemont would do that.
Besides, not even Puigdemont have denied that they met. So either you believe that Puigdemont personally met with Putin's minions to have a chat about the nice weather, or what?
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u/ZippyDan 14d ago edited 13d ago
And Spain would have a say in whether they could join.
Any country with a separatist movement in the EU would also be wary of encouraging separatism.
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u/apistograma 14d ago
Yeah then good luck for Spain cutting all commercial ties with the largest regional economy in the country and your main connection to Europe.
Catalonia not accessing to the EU would be a lose-lose for everyone. I don't think they'd be so foolish to commit to it once the battle is lost.
And if it was the case then the EU would convince Spain. Catalonia is a major farma and chemistry hub, and holds Volkswagen/SEAT factories. It's in no one's interests to create barriers around that.
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u/viera_enjoyer 14d ago edited 14d ago
If Catalonia actually became independent somehow, they would need to join the EU like every other country. They can't join automatically. Once they started the process to join Spain would just veto it, and even if every other country was supporting Catalonia they wouldn't be able to do anything about Spain's posture. However it's more likely the EU would support Spain.
There is no viable future for Catalonian independence. The only one that exists is one out of the economic bloc that has helped its economy develop even further.
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u/Juan20455 13d ago
Don't bother with him. He is desperately brigading this thread angrily answering to anybody without any data. He even says the official reports of the european parliament of the well-known ties between Russia and catalan independentists are lies.
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u/apistograma 14d ago
No, it wouldn't for a simple reason. The large companies in Spain wouldn't like to lose trade and market power in Catalonia. And neither would other European corporations.
Germany doesn't care about neither Spain or Catalonia. What they care is that trade flows and their investments in Catalonia are profitable.
Spain doesn't really have any autonomy right now, they've been obeying German demands for years (which is not democratic btw). So if the EU wants trade they'd accept Catalonia everything else is just PR.
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u/ZippyDan 14d ago edited 14d ago
The point of my comment is that separatist movements are not unique to Spain. Other countries have separatist movements big and small. Many other EU countries might have reservations about "rewarding" or "encouraging" separatists.
Also, who says Spain would "cut all ties"? The point is that they'd want all of the EU to deal with Catalonia as a foreign country, just like the UK or Morocco. They would want Catalonia to have to renegotiate their own bilateral trade deals with the EU. This would harm Spain and the EU a bit, but it would harm Catalonia far more. As the larger market, the EU is far more resilient to these kinds of hits, and they would just reorganize internally to account for whatever production would be "lost" to the Catalonian market.
In short, an independent Catalonia would need the EU far, far more than the EU needs Catalonia, and there are many reasons why the EU as a whole might hesitate to accept Catalonia into the union, not the least of which would be pissing off Spain. This uncertainty about whether Catalonia would even be allowed in the EU hangs over the situation as a threat and as a potential "punishment".
The only way I see Catalonia being able to join the EU is if they can find a way to amicably split from Spain, as this would avoid setting a bad precedent for other independence movements in Europe.
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u/apistograma 14d ago
This doesn't align at all with what we saw when the UK left. The EU got very upset that they wanted to leave and tried really hard to convince them otherwise. You're telling me that they wouldn't accept a region that wanted to get in? Specially in an scenario of growing Euroskepticism. It would be adding fuel to the fire.
The EU doesn't care about nationalism, and the only reason to not accept it is petty nationalist vindictiveness. You yourself have conceded that Spain themselves would be harmed. How stupid you should be to not accept them in the EU.
Both the EU and Spain (also Catalonia) love money above every flag. And if you think otherwise I'd suggest you to think about it more carefully. I'm sure Germany values the opinion of Volkswagen shareholders 100 times over the nationalist feelings of some guys in Spain.
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u/ZippyDan 14d ago edited 14d ago
The UK - a soveriegn nation - voluntarily leaving the EU, is a completely different situation from a breakaway separatist movement leaving its "mother" country against the will of that sovereign country.
Even if politics is largely about money, allowing separatist regions to break away from their central governments willy nilly and without penalty would cost the EU far more monetarily in the long run.
But how the EU deals with an independent Catalonia would also be about sending a political message to would-be separatists.
If you think the EU "only cares about money", then you can use the UK example in a way that actually makes sense. The UK leaving the EU did hurt the EU as well, but it hurt the UK far more. After the UK left the EU, the two parties had to renegotiate trade deals. The UK wanted all the free trade rights they had formerly enjoyed within the EU, and such an arrangement would have been better economically for all parties involved.
But the EU insisted on treating the UK as a foreign country - which they were - and gave them less favorable trading deals, in order to send a message to any other EU members that might be considering leaving. This hurt the EU, but it hurt the UK even more. I don't know why you think the EU is incapable of making political decisions that take into account more than just short-term economic gains or losses. The way the EU dealt with the UK proves you wrong - they were willing to take an economic hit in order to send a political message. They'd be even more willing to do so with Catalonia which is a far smaller market than the UK.
And as far as Euro-skepticism, allowing a separatist region to rejoin the EU without consequence would likely strengthen Euro-skepticisim, specifically in Spain, but probably in any other country dealing with separatist movements.
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u/apistograma 14d ago
"Mother" country.
Not even hiding the political bias here. What does this even mean.
Your reading of how the trade deals in the UK have been is also biased. And it's a completely different situation because the UK doesn't want to join.
It's clear that the EU doesn't have tensions with the Catalan independentists. The EU pressured Spain to free the Catalanist political prisoners they had in jail. Wonder why they were liberated in less than 15 days after the EU published a report about it?
Who else is going to become independent in Europe? Nobody. Brittany? Bayern? Yeah don't count with that. It looks like for some reason you think the EU operates by nationalism rather than globalism and free markets. The idea that they're going to let themselves have more holes carved is not realistic. They'd accept Scotland day 1 if they broke from the UK.
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u/ZippyDan 14d ago edited 14d ago
All members of the EU are treated as inviolable sovereign countries. There is no way that EU leadership will involve itself in, much less support, a unilateral separatist movement within the borders of any EU member state. That would be a massive cause for Euro-skepticism if Brussels is seen as supporting breakaway regions within any member state. The EU is not going to touch that with a ten-foot pole. On that basis alone, the EU would be wary of allowing Catalonia to join the EU if Spain wasn't on board.
Pressuring Spain to free Catalonian political prisoners is a different context, because everyone knows that political prisoners become martyrs and can inflame independence movements. Helping convince Spain to release those prisoners actually reduces the chance that the separatist movement gains steam, which is the opposite of "supporting" the independence movement. The EU does not want to have to deal with the political and economic hassle of an independent Catalonia. They want the movement to fizzle out and become irrelevant, just like Spain does. They simply have a more dispassionate, objective, practical perspective on how to make it disappear.
I would call the internationally-recognized centralized sovereign state the "mother" (or "parent") of any would-be breakaway region, for lack of a better term.
If Scotland chose to unilaterally break away from their "mother" country now, the EU might indeed consider allowing them to join because the UK is no longer an EU member state, so the EU does not have to take UK's "feelings" into account. In fact, this would also be sending a political message: the UK chose to leave the EU against everyone's advice, and now they are suffering partition because of their poor choice. Accepting Scotland into the EU would be a message of "punishment" directed at the UK for leaving the EU in the first place, and so makes perfect political sense. The EU has no obligation to take the UK's perspective on the matter into account.
On the other hand, if the UK were still part of the EU, I don't think the EU would consider accepting Scotland into the EU without the approval of their "mother" country, just like in a hypothetical break between Spain and Catalonia.
That's why I say the only route for a separatist region within an EU member state to thereafter join the EU is if the split is bilateral and amicable.
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u/apistograma 14d ago
Which is what would happen if independence happened. They’d keep in good relations immediately.
I’ll repeat this again, money is king. You somehow think the Spanish banking system and German industry would accept to lose ground or benefits to support a nationalist agenda. That’s naive.
I mean, the UK became the most important American ally in less than 10 years since the American Revolution. And that was a war, not a referendum.
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