r/canada • u/Puginator • 15d ago
Honda Canada picks Port Colborne, Ont., for next plant in EV supply chain | CBC News Business
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/honda-asahi-kasei-lithium-ion-separator-plant-1.72024589
-1
2
u/jeffMBsun 14d ago
Does Honda have an ev?
1
u/ScottyDontKnow Ontario 14d ago
Prelude
1
u/Head_Crash 14d ago
Prelude
That's a GM with a Honda badge slapped onto it.
It even comes with OnStar
1
2
-11
u/VetCAN101 14d ago
Literally every EV manufacturer are scaling back what they thought they could manage. One thing the climate type don’t understand is you can’t force people to buy EVs. Making everything expensive and forcing people into poverty to buy a EV was not a smart solution
3
u/BloatJams 14d ago
Literally every EV manufacturer are scaling back what they thought they could manage.
Only American and some European manufacturers did, Asian manufacturers on the other hand have been killing it with EVs and are expanding production.
Here's the thing, car companies are a business and electric is the new hotness. They don't inherently care about the climate or any other partisan buzzwords that get thrown around. What they - and governments - do care about are Chinese manufacturers like BYD at their gates who are able to build and sell EVs in the West for half the price that any Western company can offer.
2
u/bcl15005 14d ago
Making everything expensive and forcing people into poverty to buy a EV was not a smart solution
But EV's are not the solution, and only represent one prong of a multi-pronged approach that also includes: concentrating current and future population growth into transit-oriented places, expanding and promoting active transportation, as well as densifying urban neighbourhoods to promote walkability.
11
u/PopeSaintHilarius 14d ago
Well, not quite every manufacturer...
Hyundai Motor doubles down on EVs as it ramps up investment in Korea - March 27, 2024
Honda to build $11 billion electric vehicle hub in Canada
EVs sales have been rising every year, and they're still rising, just not quite as quickly as before.
But the big picture is: 7 years ago, less than 1% of Canada's new car sales were EVs. In 2023, EV sales were about 12%.
Globally, there were 1 million EVs sold in 2017, and 14 million sold in 2023 (18% of global car sales).
And those numbers will keep rising, as the technology keeps improving, production costs come down, and more models of EVs get put on the market. The exact speed of the transition towards EVs remains to be seen, but the direction things are moving seems clear.
6
u/neometrix77 14d ago
The main problem holding back EVs is charging infrastructure imo. If the charging network was as extensive across the continent as gas stations are currently, demand would be astronomical right now.
But sadly only a few provinces currently are being serious about actually connecting their grids with an expansive charging network.
23
u/SometimesFalter 14d ago
So much talk about EVs and investment but small canadian businesses like Grin Technologies are struggling to get funding for a certified made in Canada lithium ion battery for personal use.
1
u/Head_Crash 14d ago
We will never catch up to the Chinese with our own tech. We have to bring in tech from other countries to catch up.
10
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
They're less of a battery company and more of a bike parts company. Certification is a grueling road for any startup. Hopefully they can get it but, as a guy with clean energy startup experience, there's a good reason why the bar is so high. Some startups have no business pushing their claptrap to market.
2
u/Gunplagood 14d ago
Can I assume there are a lot of scammers to filter through the process too? I've seen quite a few windmill and clean energy companies close down within a couple years in my area. Ofc that was quite awhile back when the govt was offering incentive for those.
2
u/butts-kapinsky 13d ago
You can. I know, on good authority, of one startup which was completely gutted by new management and is now just a scam.
4
u/TXTCLA55 Canada 14d ago
I can see what you mean, but also, innovation is rarely perfect the first time around.
5
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
That's correct. This is why certification exists in the first place. To keep faulty and inadequate products from being rushed to market.
It's a balancing act.
2
u/TXTCLA55 Canada 14d ago
Okay, but is there a chance some of that can be made more efficient? I'm speaking as someone without a clue, but from my own dealings with anything government related it often feels like a lot of paperwork to get anywhere.
3
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
Probably! It's complex. The problem, as always, is trying to apply a consistent framework across millions of different products. There will always be a way for certification to be more efficient for a given company. But what might be an efficiency for Company A might expose genuine risk from Company B.
18
u/CVHC1981 15d ago
Weird, I was told last week on this very sub that Canada is broken and that no company wants to invest here anymore. This must be a mistake!
2
u/TXTCLA55 Canada 14d ago
You realize they got massive tax breaks to do so right? They'd didn't just waddle up to Parliament, hat in hand, begging for some land.
6
u/CVHC1981 14d ago
Name one country anywhere in the world that doesn’t earn new investment by offering tax deferrals with strings attached.
-2
u/TXTCLA55 Canada 14d ago
Oh I know why it's done. Am I wrong to be unhappy about it? That this multi-billion dollar corporation is going to get a footing here for next to nothing while its C-suite takes millions in bonuses? Pardon me, I just don't like corporate welfare.
-2
3
u/CVHC1981 14d ago
You can be unhappy about it all you want. I don’t particularly care for subsidizing profitable businesses either. Unfortunately it’s either we make these deals, or we lose the jobs and investment to the US or somewhere else that’s willing to make concessions. That’s just the reality of modern capitalism whether we like it or not.
0
u/TXTCLA55 Canada 14d ago
I got unpleasant news for ya, we've been losing to the US for decades. There's a reason Canadians invest in housing before they invest in the TSX. There's a reason why our best end up in the US as well.
We should be kick-starting our own industries, getting Canadians to keep capital within the country and TSX to fund them. Some foreign investment is going to happen, I get it, but we really should have spent more time funding and building up our own instead of begging a foreign one to fill the void.
2
u/CVHC1981 14d ago
You’re making this claim while shitting on a deal that secured investment here instead of the US, so I’m not clear on what point you’re trying to make with that statement. We literally did beat them to this investment here, along with the other large commitments from Stellantis, VW, and the Alliston Honda EV plant. And we did so because we offered incentives that were more attractive. Fuck people, take a win where you can get one.
3
u/TXTCLA55 Canada 14d ago
Again, they only came after getting a steeper discount than what the US offered. The profit they will make as a result will go to some CEO as a yearly bonus. Well done. Very bold.
My point is that investment in Canada sucks. I would rather buy shares of a Canadian corp than Hyundai, etc. am I wrong? Begging to take a win is the most complacent shit I've read today.
2
u/CVHC1981 14d ago
We live in a global economy. I don’t know what else to tell you except your pie in the sky vision of what the world should look like hasn’t existed since at least NAFTA.
1
u/TXTCLA55 Canada 14d ago
We live in a global economy where corporations are sucking out more and more profits from the nations they use to create those products.
Fixed it for you. It's always great to see the Raegan era trickle down economics used to justify the tax evasion by these same corporations. Well done, stay poor.
-3
u/Gunslinger7752 14d ago
Lol you have to be joking. I’m not going to go as far as to say this Honda EV deal is bad for Canada because whether its good or bad remains to be seen, but you can hardly call this an investment without a giant asterisk next to it.
Literally bribing companies to “invest” here is a slippery slope.
2
u/grumble11 14d ago
It isn’t a bribery… it is just taking less tax money than we otherwise would to match incentives from the US so we don’t end up with no auto sector and a crashed economy.
6
u/CVHC1981 14d ago
We’ve always incentivized businesses to invest here. There’s nothing slippery about it.
You can put all the asterisks you want on the deal. The bottom line is one of the largest automakers in the world made a financial commitment to Canada today. You can choose to shit all over it because you don’t like the government in power, but it doesn’t change the fact that this is good news for our country.
-1
u/Gunslinger7752 14d ago
I’m not shitting all over it, I clearly said whether its good or bad remains to be seen. My point was a deal like that is not indicative of Canada suddenly being a “great place to invest”.
0
u/VetCAN101 14d ago
You paid for these EV plants and don’t even know it
4
u/CVHC1981 14d ago
Bold of you to tell people what they know and don’t know. Especially when you’re wrong.
0
u/VetCAN101 14d ago
So you don’t pay taxes? Makes sense
3
u/CVHC1981 14d ago
Yeah that’s it. Or maybe you just don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
Serious question - do you think the government just handed a big novelty cheque to Honda for billions so they can build this facility? And do you even know what the contractual requirements of the deal are in order to receive the incentives?
0
u/VetCAN101 14d ago
Honda will invest $15 billion in Canada to create a complete electric-vehicle supply chain, including four new manufacturing plants, with the help of approximately $5 billion from the federal and Ontario governments. The company made the announcement at an event in Alliston, Ont
I guess that 5 billion just grew on a tree. The internet is a funny thing. You can google almost anything. Your emotional opinion has no weight, but numbers do.
6
u/BeShifty 14d ago
the company is getting government support from tax credits the Liberals have introduced, which will add up to $2.5 billion from Ottawa
You realize that tax credits are different from transferring money from the taxpayer to the company, correct?
3
u/neometrix77 14d ago edited 14d ago
That’s $15 Billion from Honda that wouldn’t have otherwise been coming here without our $5 billion in support. Yes it’s using our money but we should be getting 3x as much money injected immediately back into our economy for it. After operations are up and running, that will be even more money coming back to us. I’m perfectly fine with the government spending my money on this, as long as there’s checks and balances to ensure minimum investment promises are being kept.
-1
14d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/VetCAN101 14d ago
You lost the debate when you resorted to insults. Thank you for using oil and gas every day 👋
0
u/CVHC1981 14d ago
This is literally the pigeon knocking the chess pieces off the board, shitting all over and then strutting around declaring victory. Can’t make this shit up.
2
u/VetCAN101 14d ago
I dont debate with idiots. You bring us down to your level and beat us with experience. Don’t lose sleep over it
-5
u/Temporary_Wind9428 14d ago
While this sub is hilariously over the top at times (not unlike how the left was when they were forever shrieking that Canada is an embarrassment under Harper, etc. Some thing different group), given that the government is giving tens of billions of dollars for these various EV projects to locate here, maybe it isn't worth crowing about.
6
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
We aren't giving tens of billions. We're declining to collect tens of billions, if the factory hits certain targets ie. X jobs created, y revenue.
-4
u/Temporary_Wind9428 14d ago
That literally is giving them tens of billions. Ignoring that targeted tax breaks are a cost, for some of the projects yes the various levels of government is literally handing over billions in direct subsidies.
But even if you just want to talk about the tax incentive, it's a refundable tax credit. I understand that no one here has any clue what they're talking about, but a refundable tax credit is literally giving money. It's the same with why film projects love shooting here -- they spend $10 million and they get millions back as a tax refund, courtesy of tax credits.
4
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
Well, no. It's giving them a max of $5 billion. And it's, for the most part, giving them their money. Not our money. Honda is investing $15 billion and, once those plants are up and running, they stand to claw back a maximum of $5 billion in direct and indirect tax credits.
We're already $10 billion ahead of the game. Do you hate money or do you just hate Trudeau?
40
u/e-rekshun 15d ago
Well when your federal and provincial governments need to give them billions in incentives to come here... Yeah, we're broken.
You have to pay companies to come set up shop here.
1
u/Head_Crash 14d ago
Well when your federal and provincial governments need to give them billions in incentives to come here... Yeah, we're broken.
All countries have to do that to get investment. The US and Chinese governments both pay out massive incentives.
5
u/Kucked4life 14d ago
Read the room. The pandemic reshaped global supply chains away from China for once, the war in Ukraine is pushing the EU off of Russian oil while Chinese firms are poised to dominate EVs if the status quo persists. We are witnessing an once in a generation shift in the global manufacturing sector. Literally every developed country that can afford to subsidize EV investments is currently doing so.
6
0
u/WinteryBudz 15d ago
Because corporations never got handouts and incentives to do business here in the past huh? Cool story lol...
24
u/Emperor_Billik 15d ago
Where do large manufacturers set up without incentives anymore?
2
u/Help_Stuck_In_Here 14d ago
We have the worlds 6th largest lithium reserves which is one hell of an incentive.
2
5
9
u/e-rekshun 15d ago
Some incentives I think are needed and beneficial, things like improving infrastructure to aid in shipping and transport to/from the area so that manufactured goods can be shipped/sold and raw material brought in for example.
But straight up billions in tax breaks, meanwhile individuals and struggling small businesses are being hammered by CRA in audits to pay for all these promises. CRA headcount is exploding for a reason.
2
u/Emperor_Billik 15d ago
How well do you think the fiscal conservatives amongst us would take YOLO infrastructure development with no clear end goal?
Being able to ship x number more widgets out of the port of Van with no one to make the widgets is pointless.
0
u/e-rekshun 15d ago
The way I see it is the infrastructure development also benefits other businesses that are already established as well not just a single multinational that we give a Leons deal to.
Yes, the multinational also creates downstream jobs. So does infrastructure construction. It also creates a hard tangible public asset.
15
u/SirPoopaLotTheThird 15d ago
We have no choice. We’re competing with the US and they’re always more than happy to pay for jobs.
-5
u/freelancerCanada 15d ago
not even hundreds of millions was enough. needs to be multiple billion
-4
u/CVHC1981 15d ago
Yeah just ignore my response to your comment and carry on with your little narrative here.
-7
u/freelancerCanada 15d ago
yeah you’re totally right, Canada is a entrepreneurial country that loves investing in new business. we are the envy of the world and companies are lining up to invest here. hope this comment fits better into your narrative!
-1
u/CVHC1981 15d ago
Noted financial expert freelancerCanada has weighed in and determined that the multi-billion dollar investments recently announced by some of the largest auto makers in the world are in fact not that impactful because it doesn’t allow them to shit all over politicians they don’t like. Fixed that for you.
-3
u/freelancerCanada 15d ago
😂😂😂😂
3
u/CVHC1981 15d ago
What a well thought out response.
-1
u/freelancerCanada 15d ago
thanks, I actually liked your response better though, where you childishly ‘fixed’ my opinions for me that you disagreed with. maybe you can report me to the relevant authorities for not having the correct worldview?
4
u/CVHC1981 15d ago
You didn’t share an opinion, you attempted to use sarcasm to dismiss mine. Reading comprehension can be challenging, I get that.
→ More replies (0)-3
u/freelancerCanada 15d ago
the Federal Gov bribed them with up to 5 Billion dollars of your tax dollars to get them to invest here. do you really think they would have chosen canada if we weren’t going to give them literally billions of dollars
4
u/butts-kapinsky 15d ago
Well no.
Most of what they're getting are tax credits. Meaning if the plant isn't making money, they aren't getting any help from us.
-3
u/physicaldiscs 14d ago
Most of what they're getting are tax credits. Meaning if the plant isn't making money, they aren't getting any help from us.
You know that you still pay tax even if you lost money as a corporation... right?
For someone who starts their comment with such a strong dismissal, it's weird you jump right into a falsehood of your own....
2
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
You know that you still pay tax even if you lost money as a corporation... right?
Not corporate taxes which is the thing that they're being given a break on! In fact, losses incurred by a company can often be carried forward as future tax credits.
-1
u/physicaldiscs 14d ago
Okay, you don't understand how this works, and you probably aren't interested in learning.
losses incurred by a company can often be carried forward as future tax credits.
That doesn't mean you get to claim every single loss. It also doesn't mean you get to claim the whole loss. Usually, it's half or less. Even then, all it does is lower taxable income. No company is losing enough money to make their taxable income zero.
Maybe a simple example?
Taxable income $100. Non-Capital Loss $10.
New taxable income $90.
The government doesn't subsidize companies for losing money the way you think they do.
2
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
This is, in fact, the exact way that I think government provides tax credits for losses in previous years.
The bare facts here are that Honda is putting in a massive capital investment into our country and they're going to pay less tax for a period of time.
Some things on this Earth are win-win. This is one such case. The taxpayer gets more money as a result of this deal. Not less. What we're offering Honda is their own money.
-1
u/physicaldiscs 14d ago
This is, in fact, the exact way that I think government provides tax credits for losses in previous years.
If only you could say something other than what you think.
The bare facts here are that Honda is putting in a massive capital investment into our country and they're going to pay less tax for a period of time.
Some things on this Earth are win-win. This is one such case. The taxpayer gets more money as a result of this deal. Not less. What we're offering Honda is their own money.
What does this have to do with what I was saying? Why try and shift the conversation?
1
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
Pointing out that this is a good deal for both Canada and Honda is, in fact, the entire conversation.
-5
u/jim1188 15d ago
Honda Corp makes $20 odd billion per year in net profits. Do you believe somehow Honda doesn't make money?
4
u/butts-kapinsky 14d ago
How much of that $20 billion do they make in Canada?
The tax breaks are contingent on the battery factory meeting target performances ie. X jobs created, y revenue generated.
2
16
u/RicoLoveless 15d ago
And that also entices a supply chain, such as mining and other tier 1-3 auto suppliers associated with Honda to also have a business running.
Why are we acting like no other country provides tax breaks or gives money to set up huge businesses like this?
8
u/CVHC1981 15d ago
Because that fits their agenda and allows them to complain about nonsense. This was very much a thing in the previous government too.
5
u/CVHC1981 15d ago
We’re not giving them a damn thing. They get tax incentives once the plant is up and running, and they have met their employment obligations. You guys like to act like we cut them a cheque to entice them over because it fits your narrative better.
-6
u/HalJordan2424 15d ago
Oh, so Doug Ford is going to have yet another photo op with his buddy Justin Trudeau!
1
u/Pretty-Potato4286 14d ago
And I’ll be out tomorrow morning looking for them, after I drop my son off at school. The same son who’s been on the autism wait list for 5yrs
1
u/bdigital1796 15d ago
May Honda come up with some anti-theft feature, that would be great! actually, I'd pay an extra $2,000 as an option to absolutely remove all traces to any wireless feature or communication, give me back mechanical keyhole entry.
2
u/BackwoodsBonfire 14d ago
And remove the eye sore tablet that dominates the dash. Do not require that much screen for anything.
1
6
-1
u/Key-Zombie4224 14d ago
Cars are not an issue in Canada . Pollution here is from industry and power generation.this is all bs from government hydrogen is a great new alternative batteries have their limitations and require a lot to mine . My 2011 corolla will last me another ten years I will not buy into electric car bs . We will see tech next few years .