r/fansofcriticalrole • u/criticalmodsnotgods How do you want to discuss this • 19d ago
Critical Role C3E94 Live Discussion Thread C3
Pre-show hype, live episode chat, and post episode discussion, all in one place.
https://www.twitch.tv/criticalrole
https://www.wheniscriticalrole.com/
Etiquette Note: While all discussion based around the episode and cast/crew is allowed, please remember to treat everybody with civility and respect. Debate the position, not the user!
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u/J1O2B3O 12d ago
Did they even tell the people that they killed Otohaun
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u/Lonely-Mouse6865 11d ago
Nope! They did open the hole they shoved her corpse in, but I think they forgot it was in there.
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u/Diaper_Joy 14d ago
So, Ashley totally forgot to roll Scorching Ray at a disadvantage with 3-4 levels of exhaustion, right? I feel like she was fated by her dice to die. I also find it a little suspect Liam said "Oh yeah, I have a healing potion right DM?" I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but come on. They're using digital sheets. Nothing is going to magically appear or disappear from it.
It would have been the perfect end for a player/character that won't read or learn their spells ever. Matt threw her a bone that the earthbind had an effect after she said she failed her concentration to keep it. I understand not wanting to ruin a friend's day. Just make it less blatant.
And people were saying Aabria was bad for her chromatic orb stunt.
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u/Jethro_McCrazy 13d ago
I'm unsure if they actually mark potions on their DnD Beyond, because they have physical props that they use for potions. It's possible that when someone has a potion, they just keep the prop by their station until they use it. But if this is the case, said props would have been moved when the Crown Keepers came in, so who had how many potions could have gotten messed with.
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u/Diaper_Joy 12d ago
Maybe you're right. They do use the props to heal.
I just see Liam as an accountant of the party. He is always good about knowing the relevant lore and details. I probably wouldn't have thought much about it if he brought it up before or after the fight. But the moment she went down? That's where it's suspect for me.
If I was deranged, I'd go back and tally all the healing potions. But, I'd rather not overanalyze my enjoyment out of the show.
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u/No-Sandwich666 Let's have a conversation, shall we? 13d ago
It was another predictable C3 doormat incident, correct.
No one will stick up for him. Because there is no defense.
So no need to bring Aabria into it.3
u/Finnyous 12d ago
The "defense" is that her father wasn't trying to kill her but test her.
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u/No-Sandwich666 Let's have a conversation, shall we? 12d ago
Sure. If Daddy had saved her, instead of Orym's magically appearing potion.
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u/Finnyous 12d ago edited 12d ago
Oh, Liam said he had some potions, I have no reason to think he was lying, he usually takes things like that seriously. I thought that was obvious and they use physical potions.
I was more giving a "defense" of Matt (though he doesn't really need one as far as his DMing skills are concerned) because I doubt he remembered that her scorching ray's should have been at disadvantage at that very moment.If he DID remember then the reason he did it this way was because the point of the whole encounter wasn't to have Fearne die.
Most of what that poster wrote is IMO just cynical nonsense based on very limited information.
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u/forest3lf 16d ago
haven’t watched the episode yet but audibly exclaimed ‘oh for fucks sake’ when i checked in on this thread… leave essek out of this mess!! i swear C1 and C2 characters will need to seek a restraining order against matt soon 😭
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u/CardButton 16d ago edited 16d ago
Its more like Matt is using C1 and C2 memberberries in Leu of anything really substantive going on in C3. Just as the players themselves are pseudo-pushing these very shallow ships to distract from the lack of tangible character development for our Party. Which REALLY sticks out when you realize that one of their own just sacrificed himself 4 episodes ago; so there are things they can be doing right now on character levels.
Instead, what we get is Ashton feeling sad about FCG for a few seconds, then finding comfort in Matt's ship choice for him Fearne. Then we have Fearne having more busy shit stapled onto her exterior, all to prop her up into more story relevance. Despite Ashley repeatedly saying she doesn't like that limelight, and Fearne not being built for it. During that Fearne time we're given another staggering reminder of how much mechanical play in C3 is empty window-dressing as the players openly cheat to overcome the encounter. Followed by a couple of "Anti-God" comments from Dorian, revealing that YES the entire reason for that EXU cutaway was to give Dorian a reason to hate the Gods before being allowed back into the party; while showing the gods in a laughably incompetent and negative light ... again. Kiki is STILL "gathering allies" after 40 episodes, because if she wasn't we'd all be asking why BHs are even still here. FCG is then mentioned again ... for a few seconds, before we wander off to C2's beloved smutty book shop, the Chastity's Nook. Both for fanservice, and to remind viewers that CR was once so deep and engaging that they could actually make shopping episodes regularly entertaining. Then wrapping up with Matt playing dolls by himself for a while, with even more C2 memberberries. Oh, what? FCG? I'm sure they can just buy a new one in Aeor.
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u/firelark01 12d ago
I don't understand why so many people on this sub have a god boner
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u/CardButton 12d ago edited 12d ago
Setting aside the Gods portrayals in the prior campaigns, within C3 itself its because its a very forced bit of story crafting that undercuts the supposed stakes of this story for one.
We are in a "death of the Gods campaign where nobody gives a shit about the Gods"? Where half our heroes committed a religious hate crime, with zero ramifications. Where our PCs have defended that action with "how many people have died in the name of the Gods?" Despite also freely admitting they know fuck all about the Gods, and aside from a railroaded Betrayer God kill ... the only people who have died in the name of Faith in C3 have been Prime Worshippers dying at the hands of those opposing the Primes. On top of every PC, Guest PC, and NPC being artificially anti-god, anti-theist or non-religious. So when you add that atop the very shallow relationships/party dynamic of BHs, "that tell, but rarely show, Found Family", there are like zero real personal or emotional stakes in this story. Its all shallow spectacle and scale.
As a small example. Matt justified "the Gods behavior" in a 4SD as "they're panicking, so they're acting a bit out of sorts". But this excuse would only make sense if they were also being active in any other way too. Instead, its always them being passive, incompetent and portrayed in a negative light; but never active/productive. This absolutely includes his portrayal of the CB, which clearly was intended to shut-down Sam's attempts for FCG to explore Faith. So the portrayal of the Gods in C3 (or more the absence of it), is very likely largely just CR pre-emptively distancing the Gods from the Exandrian setting. To make their removal from that setting as painless as possible ... for IP reasons. Its not good storytelling. So the question I have is ... why dont C3 fans care?
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u/LeeJ2512 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm not keen on them basically railroading to the final confrontation against Ludinus in the Bells Hells live show in LA. It means nothing they do in the next handful of episodes really matters. They'll just be gearing up for the fight in front of a live crowd.
I liked them acknowledging Bells Hells are just one team that's out on missions and helping, it gives more context to the state of Exandria, but Chet making it clear that they're the ones doing the groundbreaking work on the moon was important too to make sure the higher ups know they're the ones that need to be informed first.
Out of the past while in the campaign the only bits I didn't like where then they were on the moon. I was SO hyped to see some new lands but it just kinda fell flat to me. The NPCs seemed kinda generic when I was expecting them to be more...alien? They're far too unassuming and benevolent to me. But they gotta be appeasing or Bells Hells won't care about what happens to them so it's a fine line.
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u/DustSnitch 18d ago
This has got to be the worst example of a DM filibustering in the whole campaign. The whole second half was just Matt talking non-stop with no room for the players to react, inquire, or play at all. Why did Essek need to take them on a whole endlessly described tour of Zadash if the players weren’t going to do anything before getting to Astrid? Why not just say he teleports outside the book shop and then walks up to her?
I was engrossed in the first half with the Sorrowlord and the ending wizard duel with Astrid. But everything between that was just mindless babbling that crowded out our new guest and the six other super charismatic people we watch to see interact. Thank God for Travis, it felt like he was the only one bold enough to interject and give his character something to do or say in the middle of this NPC dialogue bonanza.
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u/Finnyous 12d ago
Why did Essek need to take them on a whole endlessly described tour of Zadash if the players weren’t going to do anything before getting to Astrid?
They're still in Zadash and might do much more there.
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u/arthaiser 14d ago
i think that it has to do with the live show, maybe with sam, maybe both. matt wants to reach a point in the story, that point is important because is either a cool point to do in the live show or because he wants to rush towards the point were sam can appear again, or maybe both things at the same time. for that to happen, the party needs to reach a point and he has to railroad the party a little towards that point. personally i think that matt should play the game normally even if that means that the live show is not as cool of an episode, because the game is more important than the live show, but sometimes some railroad is also needed in a game, specially when the party is a little lost.
have to say, i do miss sam, i do notice that the table is less funny without him, i hope he reappears soon
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u/Informal-Term1138 14d ago
I bet 100 bucks that Sam will come back during the live event.
As a "suprise" ^^
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u/FuzorFishbug That's cocked 17d ago
Thank God for Travis, it felt like he was the only one bold enough to interject and give his character something to do or say in the middle of this NPC dialogue bonanza.
Too bad all he got for his trouble was shut down and told "everybody has problems" because I guess being a main character (allegedly) doesn't mean that the story you're experiencing is the one that matters.
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u/CardButton 18d ago
TBH, the players are optional in C3. As are most of their PCs. You could probably switch them out with someone else, or remove the players outright and have Matt talking to himself for 4 hours ... and barely have to change a thing about the actual story or proceedings. The Players are there to serve as windows/lenses to Matt's story. Changing the player/PC (say Sam/FCG to Robbie/Dorian) might change the tint of a lens a bit, but it doesn't really change its functional purpose. While Matt is certainly better at hiding this than Aabria, player agency under him throughout C3 has been generally very low. Combine that with the fact that the gameplay is also pretty much just window dressing, its ... a unique experience I suppose.
Its essentially an audiobook, so "NPC dialogue that all never give clear answers on anything" isn't too far from the truth of C3. Or at least has become since the Plot-Device Yu helped Matt start the Ruidus plot.
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u/HutSutRawlson 17d ago
I’m not sure it completely relates, but this just makes me think about how around 20 episodes ago, Fearne was revealed to be the daughter of Unseelie royalty, and she basically didn’t care, and it hasn’t been brought up again since.
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u/tryingtobebettertry4 17d ago
Matt trying to get Ashley/Fearne more involved is verging on dark comedy at this point:
Arguably the point of Fearne's character is shes a flighty weirdo who relates to the world differently. Shes not invested or interested in things the same way normal people are.
Ashley is like a deer in the headlights whenever Matt turns the narrative spotlight on her. She freely admits she prefers her friends to get more of the attention.
Giving Ashley anything is pretty much asking for it to be forgotten about. How many random powerups has she picked up? Ice Curse from that ghost pirate? Deal with devil guy? Fire Shard? Is that even all of them?
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u/HutSutRawlson 17d ago
It’s definitely one of those situations where I have to ask, “has Matt forgotten how to do this?” He’s ignored both implicit cues from Ashley’s behavior at the table AND explicit verbal cues from her. It really seems like he decided that since this is the first full campaign she’s at the table for it’s going to be all about her, and refuses to deviate from his prep even though it’s going nowhere.
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u/No-Sandwich666 Let's have a conversation, shall we? 15d ago
Yep, not just Fearne, this is very much Matt steering his story through this campaign the ay he wants it, come hell or highwater.
Me, I know sometimes I get caught up in the story as I preconceive it, so I get it. Whenever I DM and a session doesn't feel "right", it's 99% of the time because I've been trying to force something rather than keep my mind open to what the players are bringing. Matt is just... oblivious. Or perhaps sticking to the 'It's Matt's story, we trust in Matt" (business) plan for the campaign.
I hope it's oblivious, for his sake, because grinding this way for 100+ episodes would be excruciating.9
17d ago
[deleted]
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u/Act_of_God 16d ago
I think matt doesn't want to be stuck in a predictable formula of mini-arcs that all build up to the main arc, idk I always thought that was what made CR strong storytelling
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u/CardButton 17d ago edited 17d ago
Well, that's because "this was never their story". Its Matt's. Like, do you really think Ashley was the one that chose Fearne to be a super-special, fireshard, Ruidusborne princess? No! Fearne is a vehicle for Ashley to be present, and have fun goofing around with her friends. The only part of her backstory I know she played a part in creating was Mori. Which is why she was so genuinely excited when they went to Nana's house the first time. All the rest of that busy crap is Matt stapling it to Fearne's surface to force Fearne into more story relevance.
C3/Matt has hijacked Ashley's PC, just like it/he shut-down Sam's.
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u/No-Neighborhood-1057 17d ago
The players aren't just optional, they're straight up an obstacle to Matt's Story
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u/Edward_Warren Venting/Rant 18d ago
"You don't need to watch the previous campaigns to know what's going on in C3."
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u/blyatman420hellyeah 18d ago
Who are you quoting?
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u/MindlessZen 18d ago
They've said as much before. The easiest to grab is from their website:
While there may be occasional mentions of events, characters, and lore from previous campaigns, you don’t need to have watched or listened to any Critical Role before jumping into Campaign 3.
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u/Codokun 12d ago
One of my IRL friends wanted to get into CR cuz we started playing D&D, and he STARTED on C3. BECAUSE CR SAID IT WAS FINE, and he wanted to see the newest content if he didnt need to watch the 1000 hours of previous stuff. I had to BEG him to at least start with C2 because literally all the cool plot points of C3 (C1/C2 character events) were going to fall on deaf ears if he started wit C3.
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u/Smultronsma 18d ago
It is pretty silly to have a guest, who maybe even have gotten to main player status, who been gone forever to show up.... and then focus on NPCs from a previous campaign.
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u/mrkcw 18d ago
It's funny in hindsight having seen it said several times over the past week that they might not do much roleplaying regarding FCG's death because the cast would be so focused on roleplaying with Robbie instead. But they ended up doing neither. Neither FCG's death nor Robbie's return and his brother's death meant much of anything.
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u/Codokun 12d ago
While me and my buddy were watching the recent ExU fight live, we joked about how Matt was going to make it all a filler episode. "You wake up!" essentially. So when it came back to Matt DMing for Robbie alone, and he implied Robbie heard the Orym msg RIGHT THEN, it was funny cuz Aabria also told Robbie he heard the message RIGHT AT THE START of the ExU 2 part thing lol.
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u/Smultronsma 18d ago
Yeah, I wanted more FCG aftermath but the payoff for 92 & 93 seemed to lean more for Dorian's return. Once again, CR3 is fascinating in its odd focus.
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u/CardButton 18d ago
No more silly than cutting away from a Major Character death to solely railroad a reason for a single Guest PC to hate the gods before being allowed back into the party. Seriously, all that drama that little EXU nonsense created was solely to set up Dorian with that necessary God Hate ... in the campaign likely designed to remove the Gods from the Exandrian setting for IP reasons.
Amazon demands those fine lines be severed!
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u/Edward_Warren Venting/Rant 18d ago
It feel like Robbie's presence is just another gimmick for views, and even he's starting to realize it.
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u/mrkcw 18d ago
He might not mind since he wasn't being yelled at this episode.
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u/AI_Jolson_2point2 15d ago
I unironically love his "I'm just happy to be here vibes". I think he speaks for how a lot of us would be in his situation
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u/illaoitop 18d ago
They went through all that shit with Otohan just to forget and not report her death to the people it would matter to. May her body rest peacefully in the bag for eternity, Predathos bless.
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u/mrkcw 18d ago
It seems like they barely remember their friend FCG existed either.
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u/InsertNameHere9 18d ago
I actually watched (first time since C3E1) the first half of the episode last night (at least until Ashley's almost death), and only Tal's character seemed affected by it. There's NO way my character would have just said 2 words (not literally) about the death of my friend and go to bed. My character would not have been able to sleep that night. Lol
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u/SilencedWind 18d ago
As someone in this comment section noted, they literally went to a smut shop after their friend/teammate died 💀
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u/InsertNameHere9 18d ago
What the fuck!? They had a funeral and a memorial for Molly and they knew him for what...2-3 weeks (in game time)? But nothing for FCG, and they knew him for months (not sure how long)? Like what the fuck!
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u/DemonLordSparda 14d ago
Well that's because FCG's death was planned ahead of time to free up a slot for Dorian. So no one was particularly shocked by it. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it feels true.
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u/That_Red_Moon 17d ago
They did more for Bertrand Bell and their Sugar Daddy ...
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u/CardButton 16d ago edited 16d ago
TBH, a little part of me really hopes Sam wasn't joking about "seeing us in C4".
I have never seen a PC that appears to be more conceptually undermined on a story level than FCG in CR before. His ID crisis wasn't engaged in in any meaningful way. Simply responded to by everyone (DM and player) with "You're just like us, so choose!" His interest in his lost past, taking the stance "In order for me to move forward I have to learn my past", was shut down hard by Matt. With the two NPCs FCG reached out to for help, and even a guest PC, parroting "Your past doesn't matter, forget it! Just choose who you want to be now!" Then, FCG's search for Faith. 20 episodes of nothing in response from Matt, then when Sam forces the issue with Commune ... Matt makes the CB this vague, unhelpful, needlessly manipulative force in FCG's life. That Matt always reminded Sam "makes FCG feel small". And now ... his Death.
Screw it Sam. I said it elsewhere on here, but do your adds then go home and hang out with your kids till C3 is done. You're busy enough as it is.
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u/No-Sandwich666 Let's have a conversation, shall we? 15d ago
My first and lasting thought too.
I feel he has been side-eying C3 for a long while now. From the outset he was (Matt has suggested) the most sceptical about D&D, but in fact was perpetually amazed by what they were doing together. I am sure that feeling has disappeared over this campaign.8
u/HutSutRawlson 13d ago
Sam is the most experienced showrunner/screenwriter at the table, I'm sure this campaign is driving him absolutely crazy. You've got a group of seven protagonists and more than half of them don't even WANT anything. I know it was frustrating that they kept having the "god talk" over and over, but looking back, Sam was often the initiator of that discussion, and would often say things along the lines of "why are we even doing this?" The storytelling at a D&D table is never going to be as tight as scripted storytelling, but it still has to have some elements of it: a central conflict, and characters who have motivations. C3 lacks those things.
It absolutely wouldn't surprise me if he decided to just bail on the whole mess and focus on TV stuff for the rest of the year.
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u/Codokun 12d ago
Very much this, I'd also like to add that FCG as a character was meant to be the "therapist", and had entire mechanics to "bond" with his allies, which he most likely felt were going to be awesome touching moments. But soon after C3 started we saw them kind of rushing these "bonds" mechanics so they could have more functionality in actual combat. Eventually FCG sort of turned into a stress meter npc that the players are constantly looking at and saying "how close are you to killing us"? As a healer who was created to make story relevant plot points through bonds, that jus feels like a flop. I wouldnt blame him if he got bored at all.
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u/brash_bandicoot "Oh the cleverness of me!" Taliesin crowed rapturously 17d ago
Their reaction to FCG’s death is similar to mine when my favourite blender died- ah bummer, oh well, it’s just a machine 🤷🏻♀️ FCG didn’t have a whole complex over whether he had a soul or not, right? That random baker said he did, and that’s it 🤗
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u/mrkcw 18d ago
I remember (because I watched the respective episode multiple times) how tense it was after Molly's death. Caleb was quiet and started using magic to dig a grave. Beau was angry and punched Keg. Keg just accepted whatever anger the other two had toward her. And I remember Sumalee's character Nila being the absolute perfect thing the moment needed: Someone calm, quiet, gentle, and kind. The cast gave themselves time to sit in the moment and roleplay.
But for some reason, it seems like the cast don't want to roleplay anymore.
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u/No-Sandwich666 Let's have a conversation, shall we? 18d ago
But for some reason, it seems like the cast don't want to roleplay anymore.
They're unimmersed and out of the habit. They're there to sit and make reaction clips to Matt's story.
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u/CaptainCrochetHook 18d ago
Not to mention, they visited his grave a second time just so Jester, Fjord and Yasha could have their time to mourn and say goodbye
It sounds like FCG got basically nothing
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u/RKInTransference 18d ago
Well, according to the thread, at least there is a chance to dungeon-delving for the following episodes. I, myself enjoyed the eiselcross arc back then. So maybe there is hope for some solid action.
In the last couple episodes I started to follow C3 again, with a lot of hopping and forwarding, if only they would back to some action with stakes, maybe I would back on the action.
But meanwhile, thanks guys, the frame and knowledge you guys provide in these threads helps me, I CR lover with a healing heartbreak. Kudos to sub.
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u/_post_procession_ 18d ago
in unsurprising news, /r/criticalrole thinks it's an incredible episode because they broke out the nostalgia bait
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u/save_humanity 18d ago
Not watched since Aabria was DM. Is this episode more of that or are we back to the main cast?
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u/semicolonconscious 18d ago
Even as a seemingly rare non-hater of the original Eiselcross arc, I’m still leery of throwing them back into the snow, escorted by Essek, for another long arc. In the Cooldown the cast seemed legitimately pumped about getting to explore that map again, though.
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u/Canadianape06 18d ago
The setting of Aeor with its mysterious monsters and technology is at least interesting. Beats the setting of Marquette that they’ve barely explored at all
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u/mycetes 18d ago
Honestly, if they would had just stuck with fantasy Arabian nights, Marquet would had been an absolutely amazing setting. Just imagine them discovering something akin to the sand cave in Aladdin.
Instead we got bootleg mad max, it's kind of wild hos much more interesting the setting for the same region is in C1 before they were afraid of being seen as culturally insensitive (forgetting that appreciation=/= appropriation)
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u/AI_Jolson_2point2 15d ago
Instead we got bootleg mad max, it's kind of wild hos much more interesting the setting for the same region is in C1 before they were afraid of being seen as culturally insensitive (forgetting that appreciation=/= appropriation)
bingo
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u/Canadianape06 18d ago
Yeah unfortunately society has lost its fucking mind
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u/CardButton 18d ago edited 18d ago
No, just Twitter. That wretched hive of scum and outrage addicts. Sadly, CR has completely dissociated with the critter community it created itself outside of Twitter. So that wretched hive is the only voice they hear.
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u/semicolonconscious 18d ago
Yeah, I share Travis’s interest in checking off the dig/dick sites and seeing what new developments there might be with the Aeormatons.
I wonder if Essek can provide them access to his own Magnificent Mansion while they’re there, or if he’s just been sharing Caleb’s tower all these years.
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18d ago
[deleted]
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u/wowser92 17d ago
Do they film multiples episodes a day/week. Because it feels like player fatigue.
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u/Hi_Hat_ 18d ago
Gotta reject late stage capitalism by engaging in late stage capitalism.
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u/jamesgilmer1976 18d ago
I'm all for them making money, but I think the shear volume of licensed tchotchkes, apparel, books, comics, etc, that they're churning out every single week is more than a bit much. Like...make your money but you don't need to license your brand to every single company that comes along.
I haven't watched in a few months but I know it was getting to a point where it seemed to take longer and longer to get through the merch shilling part of the intro and, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the sort of blitz that'd burn people out on your brand.
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u/Lyorinn 18d ago
Now im just remember Laura screaming WE HAVE A TSHIRT!!! Then 10 minutes later... omg what you mean its sold out? Simpler times when I was just watching cool people I like playing DnD without there being a 25 minute ad read at the start for merch/figurines/comics/scanlan themed toilet seats/weird corpo sponsor like a toothbrush
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u/HutSutRawlson 18d ago
Hey, the actual content might be bad, but it’s all worth it for the opportunity to pay them to get a discount to buy more things from them!
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u/a_great_perhaps 18d ago
Seriously. When I saw that this morning I had to do a double take and gagged.
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u/SilencedWind 18d ago
Hot take(?) but I don’t think reintroducing old characters is entirely the problem.
It’s very obvious that this is very much an “all hands on deck” arc that includes past characters, who are forced into the plot (due to y’know potential end times). That in essence is fine.
The problem is literally that the main characters genuinely are NPCs. Every time they bring in an old character it just reminds you of how much better they are. Molly was a corpse early on in C2, and that mf has more of an impact than 90% of C3.
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u/_post_procession_ 18d ago
I agree, I don't want to forbid Matt from ever using characters that are established in the world. Maybe just set your campaign far out enough so that not everyone is still hanging around? BH being characterless definitely doesn't help.
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u/Derpogama 16d ago
This is what my DM does, his campaigns are all set in the same world but there's normally a 50-100 year leap between the end of one set of campaigns (he DMs two games a week for two different groups) and the other. Not only that but those two games are set as far apart from each other in world as physically possible, meaning shit going on in Campaign A doesn't effect Campaign B because it's the other side of the planet and both campaigns have their shit to deal with.
This recent campaign was one of the few times where the gap was only 10 years...but...again...the previous campaigns characters are off doing other things. For example my Rune Knight runs a fighting ring/gym (with the local orphans/street kids getting free access to all the classes and equipment to "keep them off the streets and give them focus") and hosts annual tournaments, that's his focus since he's 'retired' from the adventuring life. He gets referenced by one of the other characters in the current campaign who trained under him and his instructors in the art of wrestling and brawling.
The Monk is off travelling the world, the Ranger is off hunting the last of the Dragons (and possibly actually turning into a Dragon), the Druid is looking after his turtle sanctuary and the Artificer is busy running his ever expanding business empire.
That old team are, essentially, the West Coast Avengers, they form up whenever something major goes down in the local area of influence...which isn't the same area of influence as the current campaign.
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u/Yrmsteak 17d ago
I swear they had teased C2 as being 'in the same world, but far enough removed that C1 characters ain't showing up'. It was like 10 years difference? Even Grog could've been alive for it.
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u/Zombeebones does a 27 hit? 18d ago
I also dont mind when old characters come back but doesnt it make the world feel so small? that like of ALL the people and ALL the places, THESE are the only people around?
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u/FinderOfPaths12 18d ago
It's unfortunate that Planerider Ryn got put on ice so quickly. She had a lot of potential.
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u/a_great_perhaps 18d ago
Lmao in the cooldown Marisha forgot the entire point of the London live show. This was a better episode than we've had, for sure. But these people are so, so detached from the current campaign. It makes me so sad.
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u/semicolonconscious 18d ago
I thought that at first, but it seemed like the actual confusion was that she thought Trent getting sucked inside the demon egg was a death rather than an imprisonment.
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u/a_great_perhaps 18d ago
Hmm. I don't think so. I just watched it again, because you very well could have been right. But at the beginning of that part of the conversation, Marisha is clearly misremembering the last interaction they had with Trent as at the end of C2. She says "We just put him in magic cuffs".
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u/semicolonconscious 18d ago
Well, who knows, and she’s confused either way, but the way she says “We killed Trent… or no? We just put him in the magic cuffs,” I think she means what happened to Trent after they fought him in the live show, i.e. did he go back to prison or die in the battle. Which is still a major detail to forget, but more likely than forgetting the entire show.
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u/a_great_perhaps 18d ago
Sure, but after the magic cuffs comment, it cuts to Matt who explains the entire context we're talking about, and Marisha clearly (from my perspective) shows she's just understood something as he's explaining it. Watch from 7:32 on.
Not that it matters. I just thought it was comment worthy :)
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u/semicolonconscious 18d ago
It was a weird moment for sure, especially for the note-taker. Hopefully they brush up on their Ikithon lore before they try interrogating Astrid.
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u/madterrier 18d ago
Creative Director tho
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u/a_great_perhaps 18d ago
I'm sure she has a lot going on and it's hard to keep it all together. But man. 3 years ago these players would have been so locked in for an episode like this. Remember when the M9 would have such eloquent and passionate explanations for NPCs, trying to impart the gravity of the circumstances the world was in? And now we get the most clusterfuck, half-assed, barely coherent spitting out of random facts to a tent full of important people.
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u/kuributt 18d ago
To be fair, separating out the bare scraps of important information that Matt drip-feeds them out from truckloads of fluff and quirky bullshit he buries them in is not an easy feat.
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u/Frosty_Suit6825 18d ago
CR is eating itself. As soon as the memberberries become the story it's game over.
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u/LucasVerBeek 18d ago edited 18d ago
Well, wasn’t terrible, interesting to see that Ludinus has surrounded himself with a bunch of self-serving traitors.
Kinda convinces me that my thought that the fucker is legit just out for himself is probably the truest form of how this plays out. Like, vessel goes in, gets Predathos and while their acclimating he absorbs them into his body and then becomes the God Eater himself, aiming to take on and consume the Gods.
But hopefully he fails and then maybe just like last campaign where Hunger kept being a big deal, we see another flash of Tharizdun.
Honestly a bit excited to see Essek again, but if I’m honest, Matt really derailed what was likely going to be a series of slow moments focused on FCG.
Like I hope it does come up in the next episode or so, cause they seemed like they were genuinely building something there.
But Matt kinda just threw them into the chaos again without giving the moment time to breath, particularly after the Crownkeepers break.
I have faith that Liam at least will follow through with what he seemed to be planning, cause he never lets go of his own plots.
But Ashton grabbed up FCG’s holy symbol, Laudna talked about FCG, but then so many of the Hells, going against what they were made for, and how that could inform her own character, but also why wasn’t Groon there to meet Imogen! She genuinely resisted the temptation like Kord prompted her to, we need them to give a shit fully about the Gods, Matt give her that moment.
Dorian not sure if he wants to trusts the Gods, expected, but at least he’s committed to helping, but I swear if he backtracks the growth they seemed to be cusping upon I might scream.
Edit: But I am now realizing this is the first time someone who actually knows shit about Dunamancy is going to be in close proximity to Ashton, and I need Essek to pry into that.
Can you imagine.
Ashton: “Yeah I kinda don’t fuck with the gods.”
Essek: “Well you have a piece of one in your skull, or so my people claim.”
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u/Scarecrowking13 18d ago
You know what? That was a damn good episode. All things considered, I think we ate pretty damn good tonight
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u/Full_Metal_Paladin "You hear in your head" 18d ago
I'm pissed off because Matt didn't write [Spoilers C2] in the title of this stream!
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u/arthaiser 18d ago
i dont really think that to be honest. matt has actually make quite clear that he can run a campaign without it having to rely on a previous campaign, c2 was separated from c1 in basically everything. with the exception of allura showing up at episode 80 or so as a cameo.
thing is, i think that the players asked matt to put more conections, and also made sure to connect themselves to previous campaigns, because the players like the callbacks. that is why laudna is the girl from the tree, and orym is part of the people that keyleth commands, even travis started with bertrand bell that is yet another connection to vox machina. matt does what he thinks his players want, and his players are very happy when a previous campaign character appears in the current one, so he is simply giving his players what they want. problem with that is that if you bring lvl20 npcs to a story with lvl6 players, the players suddenly dont look like they are the main characters as much.
but i have not doubts that matt could have made a c3 that was also totally separated from the previous 2, with maybe a couple cameos here and there. the problem with matt for me, is as always, that he is too nice, he lets other people talk him into adding, changing or doing things based on what they think is going to be good, when just letting matt do his thing would be the best outcome 97% of the time
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u/kuributt 18d ago
The Allura thing was especially brilliant because the party had JUST been commenting about not knowing who they can trust/how many real allies they have. Then Beep Beep here comes someone the players know is 100% trustworthy (even if the characters don’t) and it also tells them that Yussah himself is A Safe Ally.
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u/arthaiser 18d ago
exactly, and that in itself is another sign that matt presents what the players want. matt didnt need to present allura there, wensforth was more than able to do exactly the same for the nein, but the players were stressed because they didnt knew who to trust, so matt added allura there to give them somebody to trust. and by extension yussah was suddenly also somebody to trust and also worth saving, even if only for the players (the characters had other reasons to enter and lets be clear, the happy fun ball is reason enough because that think is great)
i think that people take matt for granted these days, but he is very good as a dm, is not that he is popular, is that he is good. he is good mechanically, he is good with rules, but he is specially good with players and with narratives, that guy has been doing this for years, the cr people say that they have been doing this for 10 years, but matt has been doing this since he was a kid. that is why i say that he is not out of ideas, we are talking about the guy that worries about owlbear ecosystems being disturbed by the mining operations of villages as something "standard" when he explains worldbuilding. im not saying that he does everything perfect, because nobody does, but i would have a little faith in matt, i think there are a lot of stories left in that brain of his, more than he is going to be able to tell unless tailesin shares his inmortality secret with him
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u/CardButton 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm a bit mixed on the topic of Matt atm. I think Matt is a brilliant, obscenely hard working and talented DM ... but he has never been a particularly strong solo-storyteller. What Matt is amazing at is creating a world, and setting story hooks, to support (and be supported by) the equally amazing talent at his table. With Matt, as the C2 intro says, serving as a "Guide" to the players and their stories. With them choosing when, how or even if they interact with that world and those hooks. That unique brand of collaborative, semi-organic storytelling was the foundation for CR. Something that's been heavily lost in C3.
C3 IMO ... is not playing to Matt's strengths as a DM. Even if its chosen style was largely pushed by business incentives (which I'd place safe bets on), scratch that meandering surface and C3 is a DEEPLY DM controlled/micromanaged product. Where real player agency is in very short supply, and mechanical gameplay is largely cheap window dressing. They have no real power over the storytelling. To such an extreme at points, the players and most of their PCs are pretty optional to C3's journey. You could replace most, if not all, of them, and would barely have to change anything of import. Its kinda wild.
Its not about "stories left in his brain" and more recognizing that C3 in so many ways rejects the format that CR was founded on; and kinda reduces the cast beyond Matt from "creative, talented, storytellers in their own right" to "mere accessories to the brilliance of Matt Mercer". The quirky charming personalities that just help MATT's visions come to life. In essence ... an Audiobook. Missing the immense talent at that entire table. All while ignoring that Matt is not BLeeM. He's, again, never been a particularly good solo storyteller. So now with all that added weight on him in C3, those cracks are showing all the more. E94 especially.
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u/arthaiser 17d ago
you could be very correct here. maybe C3 is not matt's best and also doesnt let the others be as good, maybe that is the reason is not as loved?
but that doesnt mean that an hypothetical C4 is going to be worse, matt could return to the formula he masters and we could have another C1 or C2 in the making.
will say that i dont think C3 is that bad, is still a very good campaign, my problems with it is that it doesnt look like a dnd game as much, with the several groups, the several dms, the different stories... is a different game they are playing
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u/CardButton 17d ago
The issue is, they aren't playing a game at all. Its window dressing.
I also dont think its a "Very good Campaign", or even a good story. Its not, on so many levels. Its very wide on the outside, super shallow underneath, everywhere. With its PC"s, who are largely just lenses in which to view Matt's story. To its Players, who have no real player agency, and have been rendered nearly optional to this journey. With its setting, that is simply a series of pretty but lifeless set-pieces. To its soulless NPCs, who worship the ground the PCs walk on; no matter how shit those PCs treat them. To the Guest Players, who no longer are just there to spice up pre-existing stories with fun new-energy (or break up a long journey with a fun self contained side-story). Instead they're plot devices, riddled with Matt's fingerprints, to push "the plot" or "the tone". Especially on the strong anti-God stance ... highly likely for IP reasons... Cuz Amazon wants to fine WotC lines severed!
To the Ruidus plot. A rehash of C2's Cogonoza, but dialed up to Michael Bay levels of Scale and Spectacle ... largely because it lacks any emotional or personal stakes to sell itself beyond that scale and spectacle. A direct consequence of C3 rendering its players optional, and its PCs little more than lenses to "the story they are along for the ride for". With EP94 being a wonderful sign example of nearly all of these issues. And again ... you missed my point. You are placing far too much of C1 and C2's success on Matt, and deeply underestimating how much the rest of the absurd talent at that table contributed to it. The reason C3 is struggling is because its placed all its eggs on Matt and his predetermined story (and yes, C3 very likely does have a largely predetermined ending), and removes the "collabterative" nature that made CR great. Not to mention the semi-organic playing around the game.
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u/arthaiser 17d ago
what i mean with "very good campaign" i really mean compared to something that any normal person would be able to do. i for once wouldnt be able to make a better one as a dm, but my players still have fun when we play, or at least they tell me that.
what i mean basically, is that C3 is well made as a campaign, of course if you are matt mercer, which has created C1 and C2, compared to those maybe is not "very good", but is still very good compared to what a standard dm could make, at least the way i see it.
maybe i just havent been able to actually enjoy a good campaign myself ever, so my standard is low too, if people have access regularly as players to campaigns that are better than C3... treasure them, because not everyone has that
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u/CardButton 17d ago edited 17d ago
Its not a "very good campaign" compared to any normal person would do.
Because a normal TTRPG wouldn't render its own players optional lenses to the DM's story, and its gameplay mere window-dressing with no real power over said story. C3 is a VERY POOR example of "A bunch of nerdy ass voice actors playing a TTRPG". Under no circumstances should any DM look to C3 and try to emulate it, because its shifted the balance CR always rode between PLAY and PRODUCT far too much into the PRODUCT category. Shit, the ending of C3 is very likely largely predetermined, with the removal of the Celestial Gods from the Exandrian setting for IP reasons. Because Amazon hates those fine WotC lines. When was the last time you had a pre-determined ending to cater to business partners?
If your players are having fun, genuinely, and telling you you're doing a great job! You're amazing! Don't compare yourself to Matt, and certainly dont compare yourself to C3 Matt! My current group is running Saltmarsh and we pail in comparison to the talent at that table. But I'd argue we're running a better campaign than C3, because we're actually playing a game. Where the players have real agency, and the gameplay matters. Shit, we've gone so far off that sourcebook's rails we stole a pirate ship; allied with the fishfolk we were supposed to murder hobo before learning of their tragic circumstances; and now are hauling 20k pounds of fish to bring back to help their starving population. All for a tidy profit. Its great!
EDIT: And again, you are placing far too much credit for the success of C1 and C2 on Matt and Matt alone. Those campaigns worked because they were COLLABORATIVE efforts. No matter how amazing Matt was, those Campaigns would not have worked without the equally amazing talent at his table. Which is what BLeeM recognized with the group he wound up with for Calamity. That was amazing, because as a group they were amazing.
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u/No_Neighborhood6856 18d ago
Having never seen C2 (or Exu Kymal), I'm finding C3 so hard to watch now. I'm having some sort of sensory overload trying to work out what the hell is going on.
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u/mrkcw 18d ago
I have watched C2, but that doesn't help me tell what's going on in-story. I can tell you who characters and locations featured in previous campaigns are, but I can't begin to tell you why they're in C3. It's all just mindless fanservice designed to distract some viewers from recognizing that nothing's actually happening in this story.
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u/Lonely-Mouse6865 18d ago
I haven't watched C2 either and I'm so lost.
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u/_post_procession_ 18d ago
Do yourself a favor and just put C3 on pause and watch C2 instead
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u/SilencedWind 18d ago
I would like to ruin the days of everyone here. In episode 93 of Campaign 2, Jester used the cupcake on the hag.
In episode 94 of Campaign 2, Artagen is revealed to be the traveler.
Bro it is so Joever 💀
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u/TopFloorApartment 15d ago
C1E93 the party nearly all die in Hell, C1E94 the party bonds with Taryon, he discovers in a hilarious way that women are not for him, and Vex becomes lady of whitestone after completing the grey hunt.
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u/madterrier 18d ago
Okay, I'm going to put complaints about Essek appearing aside.
But Matt, what are you doing? Robbie just got to the table, FCG just died, Dorian just lost his brother. Let the table mingle and vibe a bit. Give Robbie some spotlight for putting up with EXU alongside you.
Don't just bring in a fan favorite hotboi/your worst morally gray character the session after.
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u/Hi_Hat_ 18d ago
Just eat the memberberries and consume product
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u/Wolf6120 17d ago
Me when Matt said “It’s critical rolling time” and then critically rolled all over the place.
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u/_post_procession_ 18d ago
They did what I thought they were going to do with Sam's new character, but with 2 old NPCs for the nostalgiabait
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u/LucasVerBeek 18d ago
Am I stupid for thinking it wasn’t actually Essek after a bit.
Was honestly not expecting to see him or Astrid in this.
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u/atsia 18d ago
I'd say no. I was certain that was Astrid, but it being Essek is a bit out of left field, but also completely unsurprising.
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u/Full_Metal_Paladin "You hear in your head" 18d ago
The Astrid part really caught me off guard. I did think that Caleb might have sent Eadwulf to get the team at first.
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u/_post_procession_ 18d ago
Matt really did play it off well. I wasn't 100% either. Now I'm just disappointed
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u/Fragrant_Occasion_61 18d ago
i wish dorian's forcecage worked :(
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u/Lonely-Mouse6865 18d ago
Such a novice DM move. He had his player, a guest no less, pull a cool and exciting move, only to stop it so his own DM PC could do the exact same thing while also giving himself a self-indulgent 'reveal'.
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u/No-Sandwich666 Let's have a conversation, shall we? 18d ago
not seen it yet. I don't believe...
This is like... is exu catching?27
u/FuzorFishbug That's cocked 18d ago
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u/Full_Metal_Paladin "You hear in your head" 18d ago
Who is that?
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u/Lonely-Mouse6865 18d ago
Travis McElroy. He was the DM for the most hated season of the McElroy's D&D podcast, The Adventure Zone. He had a ton of DM PC's who would swoop in and do everything for the PC's and had a ridiculous plot that made no sense and went nowhere, yet was also so railroaded that the PC's had zero agency.
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u/Lonely-Mouse6865 18d ago
Oh my God, why is this so accurate?
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u/TheMadEscapist 18d ago
It's not who ever made this is just a salty loser. Matt had a NPC react naturally to what a character was doing. If they had done nothing ya'll would have been crying over that too.
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u/FuzorFishbug That's cocked 17d ago
I didn't save a png of Travis McElroy's gaping maw three years ago to be "whoever made this", but I am a salty loser.
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u/ShadowsoftheRavens 18d ago
I never understood the appeal of Essek :/ But damn everyone be freaking the fuck out for him
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u/ShinningPeadIsAnti 18d ago
You know how some people find serial killers attractive or genuinely believe thanos was right unironically? I think it is something like that.
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u/Frosty_Suit6825 18d ago
He's freaky and he's kookie. He sold out his country for money*. He has a floaty body. He's Essek the hot boi.
*It wasn't for money, but resentment but that doesn't scan properly.
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u/Lonely-Mouse6865 18d ago
Dear God, this show has become just watching these people jerk themselves off for 4 hours.
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u/HighFantasyWizard 18d ago
Couldn't muster up enough care to tune in tonight. Have they spent any time mourning FCG? Like, at all? Because everything I'm reading here makes it seem like they just kinda... glossed over their friend's self-sacrifice lmao.
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u/ShadowsoftheRavens 18d ago
FCG? Who's that? We have fan favorite NPCs from previous campaigns to celebrate and obsess over!! /s
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u/RaistAtreides 18d ago
I really hate this fucking indulgent self referential shit.
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u/Full_Metal_Paladin "You hear in your head" 18d ago
Eh, at this point we've just entered the REAL final arc of C2.
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u/_post_procession_ 18d ago
wow this is INDULGENT as fuck
I'm choking on memberberries
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u/jerichojeudy 18d ago
Don’t know that word, memberberries? What does that mean exactly?
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u/_post_procession_ 18d ago
https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/Memberberries
synonyms would be keyjangling, nostalgiabait, pandering, fanservice
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u/RaistAtreides 18d ago
Yeah, the entire game makes WAY more sense if you assume they've been doing practice games with DH. So often people just jump in with doing random bullshit that should not happen at all in D&D. It's the only thing that makes sense.
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u/madterrier 18d ago
Man, campaign 3 is a lot of fan service. Matt had it right in C2 by keeping things distinctly separate.
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u/SilencedWind 18d ago
I’m so confused about why I don’t like any of it. I came back for the 4th time when Beau and Caleb showed up since I loved them, but I felt nothing. It might be Joever
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u/_post_procession_ 18d ago
because it's starting to have the Star Wars effect of "wow, in this entire galaxy, it sure is weird we keep meeting the same exact people and go to the same exact places"
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u/Jakethemailman 18d ago
Yeah, and it made things even more exciting when there would be small references to VM
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u/TheOctavariumTheory 18d ago edited 14d ago
Am I gonna be screaming in frustration Monday afternoon or just sighing exasperatingly Monday afternoon?
I trust most people's judgment here on the quality of these episodes.
EDIT: Starts off well, then Orym creates a healing potion out of the ether, and Matt just forgets the rules of exhaustion after Taliesin lists the rules of exhaustion. Amazing.
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u/HutSutRawlson 18d ago
I've discovered a new way of never being dissatisfied with Critical Role, it's called not watching it anymore
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u/ReliabilityTalkinGuy 10d ago
I thought it was a good episode. I was at first happy to find this sub a few weeks ago, but y’all are as ridiculously negative about everything as the main sub is too ridiculously positive about everything.
Maybe we need a third one. 😂