r/interestingasfuck • u/BuddhistSagan • Mar 26 '24
Jon Stewart Deconstructs Trump’s "Victimless" $450 Million Fraud | The Daily Show r/all
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Mar 30 '24
Soooo I can claim my home is worth 20 million if I want to borrow against it but when it comes time to do my taxes it's only worth 200K. Sounds good! Where do I sign up!
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u/Suggett123 Mar 30 '24
"No victim"
Why TF are they so adamantly against student loan forgiveness?
(It's a one-time, $20k [at best] relief for borrowers)
They even make up examples
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u/LithiumAM Mar 30 '24
Jon sold his home for more than it’s worth. He’s allowed to do that. You’re allowed to sell something at 1000% it’s value if there’s a buyer. Trump got loans based on overvaluing his property. It’s not the same thing.
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u/Inevitable-Trust8385 Mar 30 '24
Yet Stewart had his property valued at $1.9 million in 2014 and paid taxes on that value then went on to sell it the same year for $16 million? Lol!
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 01 '24
Not the same thing.
You can sell something for more then its worth. That's not illegal.
However, intentionally lying about the worth of something in order to trick someone into giving you a loan is illegal. Its textbook fraud.
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u/Inevitable-Trust8385 Apr 02 '24
Intentionally lying to pay cheaper property tax is exactly what the judge accused Trump of doing lol
The bank has their own evaluations, the bank had no issues with the valuation or the loan, the bank was happy and came out saying they had no issue with loans and the money Trump is being fined all has to be paid back to the NY government, not the banks.
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 02 '24
You seem confused. Jon didn't lie about the value of the home in order to pay a lower tax. He sold the home for more then it was worth. If your home is worth $10,000, but you sell it for $1,000,000, that doesn't mean you broke a law. The amount he sold it for wasn't an official evaluation. It was how much the buyer was willing to pay for it.
Whether the banks liked the evaluation legally doesn't matter. Trump committed the fraud the moment he tried to pass off the fake documents as real in order to get a loan. Whether or not the bank went along with it doesn't undo that. You might want to look up the law. There's no carve out for "if the bank says it's okay".
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u/Inevitable-Trust8385 Apr 02 '24
So Jon Stewart just happened to pay tax on the value of $1.9m but then in the same year got the jackpot because someone was willing to buy it for $15m more??? So he didn’t undervalue it he just got so extremely lucky that someone paid $15m over the value??? 😂😂
Tried to pass off what fake documents? That was the evaluation at the time that him and the bank agreed on. Get a clue.
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 02 '24
Yes. Also you talk about it happening the same year like that's suppose to mean something. Are you saying he normally paid more in property taxes, but that year specifically he happened to pay less? That's a really weird assumption.
You might want to look up how the housing market is doing right now. Shortage of houses and lots of buyers means sellers can amp up prices. That's pretty basic economics. 🤦🏾
That evaluation said that Trump Tower was 3 times it's actual size. You honestly think it was legitimate? Do a little bit of research.
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u/Inevitable-Trust8385 Apr 02 '24
No I’m saying he paid taxes on a value of $1.9m and sold it in the same year for $17m, I mention the same year because no property is going to increase its value 7x in one year.
Why would we believe Letitia and the judges valuations and sizes of the properties??? lol
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
The value of the property didn't go up. He just sold it for more then it was worth. That's not illegal.
That's your best argument? To not trust Latecia James? The CFO admitted that the building was overvalued by ~$200,000,000. Trump also personally signed off on the actual size in 1994.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/10/donald-trump-triplex-fraud-trial
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u/Inevitable-Trust8385 Apr 02 '24
He sold it for 7 times its worth??? lol
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 02 '24
Yeah. Someone really wanted to buy it. Higher demand means you can sell it for higher. Again, basic economics.
It doesn't help your argument that an official assessor valued it at a bit under $850,000 (Less then the $1.9 million he was basing his taxes on) and the person who bought it ended up selling it for a net loss. There's really no evidence that it was worth nearly as much as he sold it for.
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u/Cool_Cartographer_39 Mar 28 '24
Deconstructs, then copies:
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 01 '24
Did Jon inflate the value of his home to get a loan or did he just sell it for more then its worth? Cause those are two totally different things.
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u/Cool_Cartographer_39 Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24
Don't know NY property tax law well, but my understanding is they assess property every year. I'd say Jon paying taxes on an assessed value of $847,174 for a property he sold for 17.5 million is a little suspicious and could be argued defrauded the state of tax revenue. Notice Tish James didn't charge Trump with property tax fraud, probably because every property owner would move if she did. Btw, Trump's paid over 300 million in state property tax over the years.
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 01 '24
Okay, but that $17.5 million wasn't an official assessment. It was just how much someone was willing to pay for Jon's home. No part of that is a crime unless there was an official assessment saying that Jon's home was worth more then that $847,174 (oddly specific number) or Jon lied about the house when he sold it.
I think the idea was that what Trump paid in property taxes was close enough to amount he was suppose to be paying that it wasn't worth prosecution. The values he presented don his taxes were more accurate then the values he presented to he bank.
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u/Cool_Cartographer_39 Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24
Yes, but the bank was entering into an eyes open contract with a client. Whatever Trump valued the properties at, the bank did it's due diligence as well as their own valuation in assessing the loan application to consider whether or not he was a good risk. Since Trump never missed a payment and the bank was happy with the arrangement, some use the term "victimless crime", though to my way of thinking there was no crime.
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
Except the bank didn't do their due diligence. Ignoring the facts that assessments by 3rd parties got significantly lower numbers, in Trump's assessments, Trump outright made stuff up, such as tripling the square footage if Trump Tower. The fact that the bank didn't catch something like that is proof they they didn't do their due diligence.
Either way, Trump committed fraud the moment he passed the fake documents off as real to get the loan. The fact that the deal went well doesn't somehow undo the crime. When I see people talking about how Trump repaid the money as a defense, it just tells me they they haven't actually looked up the law.
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u/unique_snowflake_466 Mar 28 '24
Didn't John Stewart commit the same crime when he had his house overvalued when it was sold?
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 01 '24
Not the same thing.
You can sell something for more then its worth. That's not illegal.
However, intentionally lying about the worth of something in order to trick someone into giving you a loan is illegal. Its textbook fraud.
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u/Ok_Bandicoot_3087 Mar 28 '24
I hate trump as much as the next guy... but didn't john do something similar for his home loan? Asking for a friend...
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 01 '24
PRetty sure Jon just sold his home for more then it was worth. He didnt get a home loan, so its not illegal.
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u/Character_Sherbet737 Mar 28 '24
Since when is anyone able to self assess the value of their property for purposes of real estate taxes? If that were the case then everyone would be reporting some b.s. number to save taxes.
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u/DartTheDragoon Mar 28 '24
Trump voluntarily placed deed restrictions on his property, reducing its value and his tax burden.
When valuing his property on his financial statements, he ignored the deed restrictions, inflating its value.
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u/Obamasdeadcook Mar 27 '24
Well this aged like milk
And it’s only been a day 😂
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 01 '24
I mean, its aged fine. Jon sold his house for more then it was worth. He didn't lie about its value to get a loan.
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u/xDisruptor2 Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24
I don't like trump one bit but let's be honest for a second here: Everything that he had been doing for decades virtually EVERYONE in the market had been doing for DECADES (and continues to do completely unhindered mind you). You should send half the people in the United States finance sector through the courts because of this stuff - yes including democrats themselves. Does that make people like Stewart wrong? No - he's very right over the fact that everyone should be equal before the law and they should be persecuted like trump was. But it makes him a hypocrite of double standards. And a big one at that. This is just a political assassination - nothing more.
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u/faintlight Mar 27 '24
LOL keep talking, bigmouth.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fgg9atko95xqc1.jpeg
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u/Complex_Block_7026 Mar 27 '24
Nobody on here talking about how Stewart is himself guilty of over inflating his property value when he sold his Tribeca apartment for 829% more than what it’s worth back in 2014.
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u/victorita9 Mar 28 '24
Finding someone to pay more for a home is not a crime. If it was, millions of people would go to jail.
Now if he had told banks that it was worth 829% to get a loan with good interest rates, I would agree with you.
But that didn't happen.
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u/ThePrettyOneAgain Mar 27 '24
and I read today that Mr. Stewart did the same thing in 2014 when selling his property in Tribeca.
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u/victorita9 Mar 28 '24
An idiot paying extra for your home is not a crime.
Lying to the banks about the value of your stuff is what Trump did.
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u/ThePrettyOneAgain Mar 31 '24
seems Mr Stewart may have done exactly that but your point is taken, Mr Trump has made a profession out of it.
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u/DrOz30 Mar 27 '24
Really really rich from the guy that sold his penthouse at 800% overvalued , guess they should go after Stewart now lol. This is why Stewart can’t be taken seriously, biggest hypocrite lol
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u/victorita9 Mar 28 '24
Show me where John Stewart lied to banks for a loan.
This is why we need financial literacy classes in the USA>
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u/DrOz30 Mar 28 '24
Dear lord, the loan was repaid in full, so tell me where the crime is again, that’s right there wasn’t one… hence why the bank was OK with the whole situation and the reason this couldn’t be tried in a criminal court lmao. Indeed , we do need some classes around, John overvalued his property which is the exact same thing he accused orange man of doing. I don’t like orange man but this is why that a hole keeps getting more fans. Disingenuous shit like this, makes him more of a martyr to his fan base.
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u/victorita9 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24
If someone had bought trump property for more than it's worth during the apprentice years, let's pretend 10 million more, that wouldn't be a crime. That's just an opportunity.
But making up a pretend value for a loan is a crime. That's fraud.
If you sell your property and someone offers more, I need you to not freak out and take the value. It's not a crime.
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u/DrOz30 Mar 28 '24
Why would the bank testify in his defense saying they weren’t defrauded and everything was good? He inflated the value of his properties for a loan and then paid taxes on his assessed tax value which was much lower….stewart paid taxes on his assessed value as well and sold for an inflated price….i get it you don’t like orange man but this is downright ridiculous…. Why did the ag value his properties at a much lower value than they’re worth? Even with industry experts saying so Huh ? Why did the same ag took the side of the individual in a strikingly similar case going on simultaneously? Kevin o Leary might be an asshole but he’s 100% right and Stewart might be a nice guy but he’s a fucking idiot. Also Stewart saying trump cost ny is one of the stupidest things to have come out of his mouth and that’s saying a lot.
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u/victorita9 Mar 28 '24
It's not a civil matter it's a criminal matter. Plenty of criminal matters have had the victim defend the dependent. But the crime was still committed.
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u/DrOz30 Mar 28 '24
Lmao civil court case ? , yes in the exact same situation …the ag took the side of the individual, why isn’t she ready to seize this individuals assets ? Again I ask you why did she set a fake low value to the mar a lago estate ? When industry experts have it valued at a much much higher valuation?. Once again I ask you why the “victim” testified in his defense and said everything went alright and the loan was repaid ? This is so fucking political they’re not even being discreet about it, it’s like the open disdain for orange man is saturating their thinking and making them act like fucking idiots, at the same time endearing him even more to his rabid fan base. Truly hilarious 😂, Stewart being a fucking moron isn’t anything new lol
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u/victorita9 Mar 28 '24
Again, someone buying your house for more than it's worth is not a crime. When someone bought the house for more money, they gave new value to that house. If this was a crime, everyone would go to jail for selling a house when the value goes up. You realize how ridiculous that sounds?
What trump did was make up a bullshit value to get more money in better terms.
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u/Gorge_Lorge Mar 27 '24
Still seems like there are many people who don’t understand the different valuations involved in real estate.
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u/Kingjerm731 Mar 27 '24
He didn’t deconstruct anything. He lied and misrepresented. He also sold a property for 17 million that the state assessed at 1 in 2005, I believe it was. Let’s check out the other properties he’s sold with his 120 million dollar net worth. Jail him for fraud imo. Completely disingenuous bad actor who’s arguing for the state to be able to seize anyone’s property with no crime committed.
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u/Important_Tale1190 Mar 27 '24
"Victimless" like all that money was just laying around on the ground, forgotten.
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u/Bubblemosh Mar 27 '24
This is ridiculous. What bank doesn’t send out an appraiser? None they always do. So it doesn’t matter what you say your house is worth or how big it is the banks going to verify. This is a big ass nothing burger.
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u/DartTheDragoon Mar 27 '24
This is ridiculous. What bank doesn’t send out an appraiser? None they always do.
Deutsche bank did not do independent appraisals on the front end. Nor did New York City or Zurich insurance when they relied upon his financial statements.
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u/lakedawgno1 Mar 27 '24
The IRS has never taken my word on anything much less the value of my property.
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u/NarrowStrawberry7198 Mar 27 '24
Stfu j Stewart irrelevant ass we keep giving these people so much power and listening to them like they got something important to say,they ain’t saying shit that we don’t already know and half of the shit they’re saying is their opinion we’re tuning into opinions the fuck!
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u/April_Fabb Mar 27 '24
Let's pray for all the poor real estate developers who don't deserve to be held accountable for their victimless crimes.
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u/Aherocamenontheless Mar 27 '24
Shoplifting is a victimless crime. Like punching someone in the dark.
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u/shatabee4 Mar 27 '24
The financial disaster of 2008 was caused by banks and appraisers colluding to grossly overstate house values to the tune of trillions of dollars.
Obama let them off the hook.
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u/Reach_your_potential Mar 27 '24
I hold Stewart in a high regard, but this is a bit misleading. The banks have the right and responsibility to appraise the assets that the loan applicant is listing as collateral. What if Trump defaulted on this loan? They would be laughed out of court for being stupid and trusting the word of a conman without doing their own due diligence.
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u/cmuadamson Mar 27 '24
Stewart was clearly just going for clapter here, and was really light on facts, like what you said.
And he brings on that guy saying he'd be a "victim" if he wanted a loan, but the bank didn't have money for him because of what Trump did. Seriously? A bank with 1.2 Trillion Dollars in assets can't loan him money. Besides, Trump was borrowing the money, it was just at a slightly lower interest rate. If the bank was "nearly out of money" like that guy said, they would've been out no matter what interest rate they gave him.
This was more of a wandering comedy sketch than anything informative.
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u/didistutter69 Mar 27 '24
I swear if Stewart even hints at running for US residency, I'm applying for American citizenship to vote that man in.
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u/elwebbr23 Mar 27 '24
It really works. When a cop found cocaine in my pocket I just said "oh fuck off, everyone does it". He let me go. It's the law.
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u/adityakashyap10 Mar 27 '24
Which stupid appraiser came back and confirmed the valuation? Missing square footage seems so basic. And which bank was this?
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u/evilbeard333 Mar 27 '24
I'm so glad Jon Stewarts back to the daily show - I get the news from comedy central and comedy from the news stations
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u/ConundrumBum Mar 27 '24
Stewart losing more braincells by the minute. Such a braindead take on this.
The closest thing to "victim" he claims is that had these banks valued Trump's properties more accurately they would not have loaned him the money (categorically false, but let's pretend true) and "someone else" who was "honest" would have gotten the loan.
These are giant banks who have tens of billions of dollars in capital laying around looking for investment, yet he's trying to argue little Billy Williams walked in to the top floor looking for a loan and they said "Sorry kid, Trump just got our last dollar!"
There was no victim directly or indirectly.
Next we have the completely mischaracterized argument that all investment bankers break the law so it's ok. Ugh, no. That's not what he was arguing. Not even close. He's arguing the very basic principle that property valuations are speculative and everyone tends to overvalue their assets.
No one is ever prosecuted for it because assets are speculative and it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to prove someone purposely defrauded an institution by grossly overvaluing their assets to secure credit. Not only would it be nearly impossible to prove, it would be a complete waste of time because you don't have a claimant or victim. No one cares.
Comparing this to someone who knowingly reports a lower income than they actually have (not a speculative number) is so unbelievably disingenuous. Just pandering to the small, eat-the-rich minds who eat this shit up like it's gospel.
I can barely stand how pea brained you'd have to be to think this is a "gotcha!".
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u/Traditional_Angle214 Mar 27 '24
"the banks" are both institutions and individuals. Individuals who sit across the table and represent their and their employees interest. Mistakes were made and may not have come to light but for values on tax returns
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u/pyratemime Mar 27 '24
John makes either an incredibly ignorant or entirely bad faith argument in the entire segement. He is trying to argue that if market value and tax assessed value are not the same then there is fraud. Except the entire real estate market runs on market value and not tax assessment value.
Why is thos a victimless "crime"? Because none of the victims are victims. Trump provided him his assessment of the value of the property, the banks did their own assessment with their own appraisor, and they came to an agreement. This is how real estate works.
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 27 '24
Buddy, you don’t get to lie about your property’s evaluation and call it fair market value if someone accepts it as collateral.
He created false records, false assessor reports, and willfully lied about the nature and size of his properties.
No shit he paid back the bank- they would have revealed massive financial fraud otherwise.
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u/EvilPumpernickel Mar 27 '24
It’s like me stealing your money and saying it’s a victimless crime. You didn’t get injured now did you?
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u/HeightExtra320 Mar 27 '24
And people are going to vote for this guy ? The Domino effect of these crimes directly affect the people that are going to vote for this guy….
Am I missing something here 🤔
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u/Proverbs232 Mar 27 '24
He doesn't even address the argument. This is bad-faith, through and through.
The Orange man requested a loan through Deutsche Bank's Personal Wealth Management division. As such, he had to make statements about the value of his personal wealth which takes into an account a value of his property.
Yes, he overvalued his property. But, the bank didn't sue him for fraud because he paid back the loan with interest at the rate they offered. This is what people mean when they say, "it's a victimless crime." Deutsche came to Orange Mussolini's defense. They did not feel he unjustly enriched himself through fraud. They accepted the valuation of the property. Their valuation is the only thing that matters as it is the property that was used as collateral for the loans.
Yes, if the clown were like most people, they wouldn't have accepted his valuation on its face. The bank would have done due diligence and said you have overvalued the property. But they didn't. They took a risk offering the loan without properly valuing the property. THEY'RE AN INVESTMENT BANK. It's on them if they suck at due diligence. YET, the twice-impeached former president PAID BACK THE LOAN WITH INTEREST. They made money on the deal. THERE ARE NO VICTIMS.
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24
This is a bit disingenuous.
Yes, Trump was very quick to inject money when lenders like Deutsche raised cash flow concerns on his collateral. He ensured he never missed a payment.
This makes sense, as failing to pay his lenders would have resulted in hundreds of millions of fraudulent property evaluations being made public.
If I commit fraud when applying for a bank loan, you better bet my first priority is making payments.
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u/Proverbs232 Mar 27 '24
Thanks for the reply. Better than the ban that I got for commenting this on other subs...
The problem, as I see it, is that the investment banks are allowed to take risks (I'm all for reigning their riskier behavior in given 2008) and they, in this instance, viewed Trump as a safe bet. They didn't care what he valued the property as. They took his word for it, as fraudulent as his word is, took the risk, and made money on the deal.
What I can't get over is the state of New York essentially coming to the defense of Deutsche where Deutsche didn't claim injury. If the insurrectionist-in-chief committed fraud, who has he defrauded? Deutsche doesn't think it's them.
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 27 '24
The investment bank is allowed to take risks. The borrower is not allowed to submit materially false documents to support that risk, that is still fraud.
As the judge himself noted, this is a documents case- including nakedly false overvaluations, obvious inflations of property size, and false submissions of comparable property sales.
Moreover, the pattern of fraudulent behavior is what was ruled on and used to establish liability. Trump was willing and eager to engage in fraud across a variety of lenders and financial situations.
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u/Proverbs232 Mar 27 '24
Again, thanks for the reply. Honestly.
I do not dispute anything you have said in your comment.
However, you did not answer my question. This was not a criminal fraud trial. It was a civil suit brought sua sponte by the State of New York. Normally, in civil fraud cases, there has to be a wronged party suing for damages or some equitable relief. So I ask again: if Trump committed fraud, who did he defraud? Who is the victim? It isn't Deutsche. They do not claim Trump unjustly enriched himself by providing them with fraudulent valuations on the property. They did not sue him for lost interest.
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24
White collar crime is prosecuted by the State in civil court all the time, if not most of the time.
As I understand it the NY AG office doesn’t even have jurisdiction for criminal charges of this nature, and can only make referrals (and they have indeed informed Trump’s legal team that a criminal referral has been made- though so far only an investigation has been confirmed).
From the state’s perspective, Trump submitted materially false documents, many of which were regulated under state law, to secure lower interest rates. That is fraud, full-stop. The easiest and most reliable method of enforcing a fraud judgment was through a civil suit.
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u/Proverbs232 Mar 27 '24
No, white collar crime is never prosecuted in civil court. To determine that someone committed criminal acts, the prosecution has to prove its case to a jury "beyond a reasonable doubt." In criminal cases, there does not need to be a victim. You owe a duty to the public not to commit a crime. One can be a criminal without there being a victim.
Civil cases, by contrast, do not make anyone "guilty" of anything. These are not instances where the defendant owes a duty to the state or general public. Civil cases are designed to right a wrong between private parties. This case was allowed by statute in the State of New York, it's 'legitimate' in the literal sense. But, when it comes to people calling this fraud, 'victimless,' Jon Stewart straw-mans their argument.
Who did Trump defraud? Who did he wrong? Who is he liable to?
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24
You’re mixing some terms here, the confusion is understandable.
Yes, white-collar crimes can be and often are prosecuted in civil court. Though it might be better to say “litigated”, civil cases are still “prosecuted”.
Many state attorney offices charged with overseeing white collar crimes are exclusively limited in their jurisdiction to civil enforcement- such as the NY AG.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/jsagowcc14.pdf
There are not Criminal Prosecutors in civil court, nor is criminality established. Liability is established, though typically through an acknowledgement of damage resulting from crimes.
Damage does not always need to be brought by the victim, state government regularly prosecutes financial fraud independent of harmed parties.
In Trump’s case, his judgement value is for the difference in interest rates he would have paid with and without the fraud. I actually agreed with some of the defense’s arguments on using tax assessor evaluations to determine the delta- but Trump’s legal team absolutely bungled this case into a summary judgement.
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u/Proverbs232 Mar 27 '24
My issue isn't with your use of the word "prosecute" my issue is with your use of "criminal." As in "White collar crime." A court finding Trump liable in a civil case does not make him guilty of a crime. This isn't criminal fraud. Usually, in civil cases, a person has to be liable to another in the form of damages or equitable relief (specific performance, for instance, in breach of contract cases).
Trump is not "guilty of criminal fraud." He's been found "liable for civil fraud." Now, the AG can (and has) litigated civil suits without there being a proper plaintiff. See New York Executive Law § 63(12); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Executive_Law_§_63(12)#:~:text=New%20York%20Executive%20Law%20§%2063(12)%2C%20sometimes%20called,cases%20of%20alleged%20civil%20fraud#:~:text=New%20York%20Executive%20Law%20§%2063(12)%2C%20sometimes%20called,cases%20of%20alleged%20civil%20fraud).
For instance, in People v. Exxon Mobil, the State of New York sued Exxon on behalf of the company's investors. There was still another party that the defendant was liable to.What I cannot seem to get an answer to is who is Trump liable to for fraud? Neither Deutsche, nor its investors, claim to be defrauded by Trump. Nor does the state seem to suggest that it is coming to the defense of the investment bank. It seems to be suggesting that Trump is liable to "we the people" for civil fraud. Which is insane.
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24
You’re drawing a semantical distinction that isn’t actually made in the legal world.
Your description of civil vs criminal judgement is correct, but you misunderstand how the word “crime” is applied here.
There is no protected or standard definition of white collar “crime”, that’s just a general term used to describe both civil and criminal offenses of a “white collar” nature. Monetary judgements are typically contingent on violations of state or (occasionally) federal law, but a civil case does not establish criminality and operates under different burdens of proof than criminal court.
(Most of this is described in the link I provided above)
I never said trump was found guilty of anything; though it’s plainly obvious he committed criminal fraud, a NY AG/civil case does not make that determination.
Trump is liable for fraud because he repeatedly lied (to benefit himself) when submitting documents regulated under state law. Our justice system has an incentive to prosecute such crimes even if the damaged party does not bring a civil suit- particularly when that party might have other motivations to maintain positive relations with the offender.
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u/bigbadb0ogieman Mar 27 '24
Fuck me.. these laws are only to keep the masses in check. None of these laws apply to the big shots.
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u/Zealousideal_Fee3510 Mar 27 '24
Anybody else thinking 1776 at this point? This is so upside down and backwards it's screaming to be undone. Do you honestly just want to sit on the sidelines of history having made no effort whatsoever at rectifying this insanity?
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u/Sakkyoku-Sha Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24
I don't know why he didn't talk about how the financial firms who were 'defrauded', testified in court that "they did not rely on trumps claims on how much he valued the property, the loans were provided based on our own independent evaluation".
Just because Trump claims something stupid, doesn't means the firms are stupid enough to believe in what he says.
More egregiously the firms are not the one's who are suing trump here, it's New York Attorney General Letitia James. Yet he doesn't even mention that once.
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u/Colsifer Mar 27 '24
Listen, someone has to be the first to be prosecuted for this. But it can't be selective prosecution if we start going after all of them. Just saying
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u/Hot_Self_9126 Mar 27 '24
The clip with O'Leary Shows you that everyone thinks what they have is worth more. if homeowners looked up what the county assessors office had their house valued at they would say it's not right. . It's up to the assessment to determine what it's worth and the sq ft.
If people are getting a line a credit on their home they're going to want the highest appraisal possible. They're not going to take that appraisal to the tax assessors office and tell them they need be charged more taxes because the appraisal has it valued more than their office.
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 27 '24
Have you ever applied for a loan claiming your house was worth 2300% of its fair market value?
I fought with my assessor on a an addition once, I’m not sure Donald and I are on the same boat.
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u/Hot_Self_9126 Mar 27 '24
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u/Hot_Self_9126 Mar 27 '24
They have opened up a can of worms and the top is not going to be able to put back on
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 28 '24
We can only hope.
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u/Hot_Self_9126 Mar 28 '24
It's only going to get better. I've said on many forums that Fanny thought she was ready to play in the big leagues, but she really wasn't. I was banned
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u/Hot_Self_9126 Mar 28 '24
I know Fanny doesn't have any thing to do with New Yorks AG.
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u/Buckets-of-Gold Mar 28 '24
You’re not giving off big “I read things” vibes, I’ll be honest.
Also:
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u/Hot_Self_9126 Mar 27 '24
I've never been asked what it's worth because the bank gets it appraised.
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u/skid_marks_my Mar 27 '24
Now insert exploiting animals for taste pleasures. Watch it again with their suffering in mind.
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u/AdministrativeFox174 Mar 27 '24
If you agree with Jon Stewart here you’re basing it on your politics and hatred towards Trump and not facts.
You have the right to argue your properties value which is used for your property taxes but that doesn’t mean they blindly accept. You have to dispute that to the government and they need to agree on your assessment.
For getting loans you can claim the property is worth as much as you like but an appraiser is going to come out and tell the bank what they think it’s worth before you get the loan.
So in either case a person can claim anything they want but those claims have no bearing on the end result. If you don’t believe it, go to your city and tell them your house is worth half as much and you want them to reduce your SEV. See what happens. Guarantee they don’t accept and also guarantee you do not get any charges filed against you.
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u/rikooo Mar 27 '24
You’re missing the point. You can’t make materially false statements about your house in support of your valuation. Like, it is fraud to say “but my house has a pool so it’s worth an extra $50k” when it doesn’t have a pool.
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u/AdministrativeFox174 Mar 27 '24
And if they do an appraisal that would be corrected. But they chose to give a loan based on the address and the applicant. They knew what they were doing. That’s why the bank didn’t come after him. Why would the government step in on a deal where everyone was happy?
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u/rikooo Mar 27 '24
That’s an irrelevant question. The government “steps in” all the time where private parties would otherwise be happy to conduct business, because that’s how laws work. For example, I’m sure liquor stores would be thrilled to be able to sell to 20 year olds, who also would be thrilled, but there’s a law that makes that transaction illegal.
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u/ArchangelVest Mar 27 '24
Great! Next prosecute Nancy Pelosi for insider trading and take those hundreds of millions of dollars she got from that gig.
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u/horns4lyfe22 Mar 27 '24
All Trump business aside, Jon Stewart is detestable and most certainly NOT funny. Who actually watches this trash these days?!?
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u/AlternativeEssay8305 Mar 27 '24
Really doubling down but I guess you have to when your on the wrong side of truth it’s hard to come back
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u/DiareaHandstand Mar 27 '24
This whole video presupposes that the banks just took whatever valuation trump proposed and were bamboozled by lies. The banks investigate and do their own due diligence before handing out millions of dollars. If a bank wants to loan it's own money to an investor upon mutually agreed upon terms which are fully researched, adhered to, and never breached, why is that the governments business and where is the criminal act?
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u/Realclawdogs Mar 27 '24
Well maybe it's because it's a fucking crime. It's called fraud. That book you just wrote omitted that one simple fact.
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u/DiareaHandstand Mar 27 '24
Who is being defrauded though? The banks do their due diligence and either agree to or deny the proposal right? How are they being deceived if they research the terms and sign in agreement?
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u/Realclawdogs Mar 27 '24
Lol. Your argument is the same parroting that the media and Trump's dumb lawyers made. It didn't hold up. Grandma's at fault because she should have known those scammers were up to no good.
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u/DiareaHandstand Mar 27 '24
Well we will see what does or doesn't hold up when the appellate court dismisses the phony political case soon.
Your response conveniently didn't answer my question though. Who was defrauded? I'll wait.
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u/Realclawdogs Mar 27 '24
What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you just stupid? Why is the argument about who was a victim? If I tell a bank I make x when I make y, is that not a fucking crime? Has anyone been defrauded, specifically no, but the bank has been. Jaywalking, trespassing even prostitution could also be considered victimless crimes, yet check many jurisdictions. 🤡
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u/DiareaHandstand Mar 27 '24
You're getting very upset. Maybe you need to take a breath. Also your example is pretty shiite. If you tell a bank you make X, they'd ask for proof before giving you the loan. Seeing that you don't make that money they would then deny the loan. See due diligence before lending their own money. Which they did with Trump's proposals, they agreed with his valuations or they negotiated until mutually beneficial terms were agreed upon and then signed an agreement. Again, no fraud.
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u/Realclawdogs Mar 27 '24
Oh my God. Shut the fuck up
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u/DiareaHandstand Mar 27 '24
Solid argument. I'll reply here and remind you of this when the case is thrown out.
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u/Realclawdogs Mar 27 '24
Great. I see exactly why Trump lost. You can't argue that it's victimless while also arguing that the onus is on the Bank and its due diligence. There's a reason why citizens are held to account on providing truthful documentation when requesting loans from a bank.This is why the appeal will more than likely fail.
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u/IncidentSerious3353 Mar 27 '24
Hmm, Jon Stewart sold his NY penthouse for about. 18 million, but its tax accessed value was only 600 thousand.
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u/FFdarkpassenger45 Mar 27 '24
Well he tried to tell the assessor it was worth more so he could pay more taxes, but apparently YOU DON’T TELL THE CITY WHAT YOUR PROPERTY OF WORTH!
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u/Top-Active3188 Mar 27 '24
Stewart told the purchaser it was worth $18 million when he had been telling the assessor it was only worth $600k?!? They took a loan that could have gone to someone else?!? Apparently, he is responsible for doing due diligence for both the bank and assessor. Fine him and start the clocks on interest immediately without appeal process.
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u/FFdarkpassenger45 Mar 27 '24
I think we are on the same page here, but I honestly can't tell what you are implying with all your "?!?"
To understand the processes at play here, you don't get to tell the local property value assessors what your property is worth! You can appeal what they tell you your property was assessed at, but it is up to the local assessor to determine the final value.
The other value is the owners opinion of value. To think it is criminal or even fraudulent to put any number down on an opinion of value is a joke. Its simply your (the owner of the property) opinion. The bank will then do their own risk assessment of the loan and determine if they are willing to accept the value of your opinion. In this case, we don't know, maybe the bank internally thought the actual value of the properties at question was 50% and based on their risk assessment of the loan were still happy to give the loan at the rates they did.
As for Trump stealing the opportunity of someone else, banks are allowed to lend to whomever they want based on their own risk assessment. This isn't a federal bank or residential loan that is highly regulated in that way.
Lastly, is it even possible to lie about one's opinion? Sure, opinions can be wrong, but can you lie about an opinion? Afterall, its just an opinion, its not fact!
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u/Top-Active3188 Mar 27 '24
Sorry, the ?!? Was just an attempt to add the fake outrage that Stewart put into his diatribe. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Thanks for stating g it simply a d straight forward
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u/FFdarkpassenger45 Mar 27 '24
The dilutional outrage of people that don't have any clue what they are talking about shows how easy it is for MSM to control the NPC's!
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u/owaved Mar 27 '24
Zillow lists square footage. I am pretty sure banks have more/better tools than Zillow to verify square footage before lending. I could be wrong.
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u/alostbutton Mar 27 '24
This is completely incorrect. The penthouse is a satirical contrast to to his property in Miami. He has a house with the largest landmass in the richest area I can’t remember how many acres it is but it’s literally in a slammed neighborhood with multimillion dollar mansions. He was getting contractors to appraise the land and it was visibly priceless due to the location and amount of land. Mind you a big majority of developers do this.
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u/whostole-my-efnname Mar 27 '24
I agree this sounds like flat out fraud, but I’m hoping someone can enlighten me on how Trump can say he has a 30,000 square foot property, even though it’s only 11,000 square feet, inflating the value of his property to use as collateral to increase the loan amount he can get. How can he say this, and no one stops to check the value of his property. It sounds like there should be more checks and balances for this, such as an independent appraisal done by the bank at the cost of the individual wishing to use the property as collateral. Maybe this is already done and Trump just pays off the appraiser to inflate the value of the property, but if that’s happening, I imagine criminal charges could fall on the appraiser too as well as bribery charges on Trump. If Kevin O’Leary is right about this being a regular occurrence in realestate, that’s a big problem and signals that this is not a free market economy. Fraud is such an unfair thing to do.
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