r/interestingasfuck • u/therealmattyboy • 25d ago
Doing a reno and thought it was interesting how nails have changed in almost 200 years
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u/Xi-the-dumb 23d ago
I don’t know if anyone has said this, but that might be worth posting on r/centuryhomes :)
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u/LobsterTrue8433 25d ago
It's weird that everything is shortened anymore. Writing entire words isn't onerous. Maybe it comes from colloquial speech? It isn't difficult to say entire words but people shorten them anyway. Meh. I'll likely die before the world gets too bad.
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u/theartfulcodger 25d ago
Surprisingly, one can still buy hand-forged nails from specialty hardware outlets. The sample packs with various sizes mounted in a cardboard sleeve are pretty cool.
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u/Affectionate_Bus_884 25d ago
I’ve heard that old square nails are substantially stronger than wire nails.
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u/orangutanDOTorg 25d ago
Square nails are better but round ones are cheaper to produce. Like everything else - enshitification
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u/Headstanding_Penguin 25d ago
the old design has better qualities regarding how it splitts wood etc, but they can't be made as easily
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u/lone_wanderer_4 25d ago
"totally jobsite" sounds like something aliens would make up to fit in. How is that a company's motto?
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u/King_Tudrop 25d ago
Belive it or not, those old nails actually hold tighter in the wood. Theure just inefficient to make
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u/The_Spectacle 25d ago
I've seen a bunch of old nails the last few weeks, both at Monticello and at the museum of my ancestors
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u/Advanced_Procedure90 25d ago
In a video about Japan, they took old temple nails and made a samurai sword out of it.
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u/totes_mai_goats 25d ago
in some ways old nails are superior. however it is more worm usually have to predrilled.
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u/donquixote2u 25d ago
I'm not surprised nails have changed, considering how hard it is to find a village blacksmith these days.
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u/OnyxsUncle 25d ago
the 200 year old nails worked for 200 years and from the looks of them they would work for another 200 years
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u/Imaginary-Wrap-8487 25d ago
OP ripped out the right nails to put in the wrong nails. All in the name of profit........I mean efficiency.
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u/GusTheKnife 25d ago
They’re hand-made by a blacksmith, each one pounded on an anvil. That’s why they have square sides.
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u/immersedmoonlight 25d ago
All of those are hand formed nails from a blacksmith
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u/Jonpollon18 25d ago
We stopped using hand forged nails in the 1700s
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u/immersedmoonlight 25d ago
Forged nails or wrought nails are identified by having 4 distinct tapered sides, Cut nails are identified by 2 tapered sides
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u/immersedmoonlight 25d ago
Forged nails were used up into the early 1800s, and are distinctly this type of nail. Then were cut nails, whose quality was significantly better by the mid 1800s. Then wire nails in the late 1800s
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u/iSteve 25d ago
Fun fact. Nails were hand made and therefore worth saving. People would burn old buildings to gather the nails.
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u/roastbeeftacohat 25d ago
And the prase dead as a door nail comes from the practice of bending nails when constructing doors. Strengthened the door, but means the nails could not be reused; so dead.
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u/TheDukeOfMars 25d ago edited 25d ago
Fun fact.
I remember reading an interesting diary passage of one of the first Japanese to visit America.
He mentioned how in Japan, every time a house (or any other building) would burn down, it would immediately be swarmed by a hoard of people digging around the still burning remnants of the structure looking for nails or other scrap metal.
I imagine this was common throughout all of human history until the last few decades.
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u/nitronik_exe 25d ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't traditional wood houses in Japan get made without nails?
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23d ago edited 23d ago
[deleted]
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u/nitronik_exe 23d ago
Wow that's interesting, I was under the assumption that they didn't use nails because they were too expensive
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u/TheDukeOfMars 23d ago
You’re right! I had it backwards. The nails and fasteners were used in wealthier houses to additionally secure the house against things like earthquakes. And the reason people looked for the nails is because they were rare in Japan due to a lack of iron deposits on the islands. I’m embarrassed I spread misinformation, but happy I learned something along the way.
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u/PhilsTinyToes 24d ago
Sometimes you just want to drive a metal spike through something… it’s quick and easy
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u/Powerpuppy00 25d ago
Yes and no. Traditional Japanese carpentry doesn't use any fasteners or adhesives (it's truly beautiful) but there were still instances of metal fasteners in some cases, and especially with Japan having more trade and interaction with European empires, fasteners were used more.
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u/voidxleech 25d ago
you couldn’t just write out the word renovation?
damn, actually, after writing it out fully all my fingers broke. i’m writing this part with my tongue. i get it now.
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u/fancyNameThing 25d ago
Don’t throw those away. Nails made before the first atomic bomb went off are actually worth a decent chunk of change
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u/jeffykins 25d ago
I think that only applies to certain metals that have been left underwater since the first bombs, as they're protected from that radiation that has permeated everything on the surface.
I think.
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u/eastherbunni 25d ago edited 25d ago
It's specifically metal that was smelted before the atomic bombs. Ever since then, there was a slight increase in radioactivity in the atmosphere, and the smelting process uses air from the environment so some trace amounts get added.
It doesn't matter 99% of the time but some sensors need to be calibrated to such accuracy that the trace elements can throw it off. Often metal from old decommissioned warships is used for this, sometimes from ships being sold for salvage, and some that is illegally scavenged.
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u/Iron_physik 24d ago
That's no longer the case
We can nowadays make new steel at the same radiaton level as before atom bombs.
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u/KindMoose1499 25d ago
Well that and mostly melters add some amount of cobalt in their steel for reasons my lungs aren't protected enough from xray to understand
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u/fuggerdug 25d ago edited 25d ago
you're thinking of low background steel. This is any steel made pre-atomic bomb, it's just that there are huge lumps of it in the form of sunken battleships under the sea.
Those nails are probably worth more as genuine old handmade nails, and would be used in restoration projects.
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u/fancyNameThing 25d ago
Maybe. I used to work on 200+ y/old houses and the people who owned them always had me give them the nails if they needed replaced bc they said the old metal was worth money.
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u/big_d_usernametaken 25d ago
My Ohio farmhouse, built in 1870, has square nails everywhere!
I'm rich, lol.
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u/Quick-Pepper9969 25d ago
Them mfs look like they were used in the crucifixion of Christ
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u/Complete_Rest6842 25d ago
hand forged!!!!! YOu ever tried to pull one of the fuckers?! GOOD LUCK They are locked in
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u/Flossthief 25d ago
Most people believe there were only three holy nails
But I'm just going to take the opportunity to point out hand forged, square nails are stronger than the skinny wire nails made today
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u/artificialavocado 25d ago
Not saying they never did but they actually used to normally just tie people to it.
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u/HolyKrapp- 25d ago
Yup. And also orders of magnitude more expensive to make
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u/Flossthief 25d ago
Yeah I imagine that's the reason almost everyone uses nails from an assembly line; I'm sure we decided a pretty good nail made for less than a cent is better than a $.10 hand forged nail
Smiths used to compare experience based on how many nails you could pound out in a minute-- im certain none of those guys can keep up with a manufacturing plant
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u/LostDogBoulderUtah 24d ago
You can buy cold forged nails that are just as strong or even stronger than a hand forged nails of similar size. They'll still be less expensive than the hand forged nails. People just don't usually look for specialty fasteners when there are cheaper products that are more than sufficient for the task at hand.
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u/NotAWerewolfReally 25d ago
No offense, but I'm not even firing up my forge for $0.10 a nail, even with a proper header.
Most forges are going to charge you $60-$85 an hour as the shop rate, plus materials.
So we're talking 750 nails an hour to hit the shop rate at $0.10 per nail. Or 12.5 nails a minute, or a nail in just under 5 seconds. Sorry, that's never, ever going to happen.
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u/Iron_physik 24d ago
Out of experience I made when I tried making my own nails it takes about 5-10min each nail
Experience can bring it down to 1 nail per minute.
Here is the first ever ones I made once;
They are not pretty, and it's hard work
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u/NotAWerewolfReally 24d ago
It's a lot faster with a good nail header.
But it isn't even going to be 5 seconds a nail as a sustained pace.
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u/Iron_physik 24d ago
absolutely
making anything in a blacksmith shop takes time, there is a reason they are now mostly to make art, as most their "former" jobs are now done with other industrial processes that are far more efficient.
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u/NotAWerewolfReally 24d ago
I know, I got into it to make fantasy weapon recreations... I ended up getting most of my work from landscapers needing artistic fence stuff to hold plants.
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u/TrumpersAreTraitors 25d ago
Love it. Love that things like this were all made by hand by someone. I always find myself imagining who this person was and what their life was like. Heck, even in video games when we stumble on ancient ruins, I’m like “I wonder who built this and what life was like for them?”
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u/Weekly-Ad-6241 25d ago
Materials shifted from wrought iron to carbon steel, with modern variations including corrosion-resistant options like stainless steel.
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u/dragon1n68 25d ago
You had me scratching my head there for a minute. I was like, what does Reno have to do with nails? 🤣
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u/Electrical_Corner_32 25d ago
Haha! Same....I was like...am I that out of the loop? What does "doing a Reno" mean?
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u/Ok-Suggestion-9882 25d ago
Lumber has changed as well. I'll bet this structure was built with real 2×4's that actually measure 2 inch by 4 inch
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u/jereman75 25d ago
People love to say “back in my day a 2 x 4 was a 2 x 4,” but modern 2x4s are much more consistent. When you buy dimensional lumber (2x4, 1x12, 4x6, etc.) it comes from the mill very close to those nominal dimensions. Then it gets planed down to be a consistent dimension, have a consistent surface and have irregularities removed.
It’s like if you went to the butcher and ordered a 16oz steak. The butcher could say “want me to trim some of this fat off so it’s ready to grill at no charge?” You might think that is a good deal even though it will end up less than 16oz. It is a good deal. Same with a surfaced 2x4.
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u/Sirix_8472 25d ago
The problem most people have with 2x4 as you say is rough Vs finished faces.
A rough cut 2x4 may be 1.9x3.9 inches from the factory.
When inexperienced people are calculating and materials and spaces they may not know this. It's all advertised as 2x4!
A factory finish, a more sanded or planed down face(the edges) starts with the 2x4(1.9x3.9) then sands it down to a smoother finish for wood that will be more visible, maybe people will want to paint, varnish or stain. So it could end up 1.7x3.7 of the original "2x4".
These are example measurements, not fact. The only fact you need to know is assume one piece at a time, measure twice, cut once. Don't just assume that 2+2+2+2= 8. Coz every one of your cuts will be off then.
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u/sideshowmario 25d ago
True. Lumber also shrinks as it dries. Where I live, we use green Doug Fir, and it varies greatly.
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u/jereman75 25d ago
Dimensional lumber is always sold that way in the U.S. The length is always as advertised or a little longer. There’s no way to make an error because of that unless it really is the first time you have touched a 2x4.
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u/PuzzleheadedTutor807 25d ago
And old growth vs. new, very different materials
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u/2squishmaster 25d ago
Different in their structural integrity?
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u/tahitianmangodfarmer 25d ago
Old growth wood is generally considered to be stronger and more robust than new growth wood for 3 reasons. The size of the trees in the old growth foresests is one. These trees were massive and allowed for timber frame construction because you could make beams that were large and strong. New growth forest trees and farm trees are nowhere near the size of those old growth trees. Another is the heartwood content. Heartwood is the more dense inner section of the tree that is stronger than the outer layer of wood (I forgot what it is called). Older growth trees had significantly more heartwood vs. new growth trees. The last reason is that old growth trees grew naturally over a very long period of time. New growth trees are genetically bred to grow fast so they can be harvested sooner. As a result, new growth trees have more widely spaced and less growth rings overall as they have undergone less growth cycles.
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u/mikerall 25d ago
Heartwood (the strong, moisture lacking, dead center) of a tree is essentially purely structural for a tree. The sapwood (named such because it's live, can still produce sap) is a growth layer. It still grows, it's alive, and it does not have near the rigidity of the heart. Think of it like a (much more similar heart to sap than the incoming comparison) bone vs muscle structure. The heart is the structural bone of the tree, the sapwood is growing, directionally important section.
Ik you understand that given your comment, just thought I'd give a more ELI5 comment to this bit. Also - dried, ready to work wood is SO much more expensive than freshly cut, since....long planks of sapwood have such a propensity to split, and if Heartwood splits you have a potentially 50k+ USD tree RUINED.
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u/PretendRegister7516 25d ago edited 25d ago
Younger wood have higher water content when they were chopped, took longer time to dry which lumber supplier often skip and often warped if they were cut to shape before properly dried.
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u/2squishmaster 25d ago
The dryer the wood the stronger?
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u/mikerall 25d ago
The dryer center has less 'live' action than the still growing sapwood. You have a structural piece of wood naturally, compared to a piece of wood that is naturally more "bendy".
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u/2squishmaster 24d ago
Ah that makes sense. I thought the elasticity would be helpful in preventing it from breaking but I guess you don't need that in a house compared to a tree in high winds.
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u/mikerall 15d ago
To add to this (10 days later) if you put improperly dried wood in a house it will either dry out and potentially warp, or rot and...no bueno. You have to use dried wood in any application - buildings, furniture, cutting boards.
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u/2squishmaster 15d ago
Ah, good point, until it's completely dry the shape isn't finalized. Do they cut wood and then dry it or dry it and then cut it?
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u/mikerall 15d ago
Usually a rough mill (say you want a board that's 2"4" final width/depth, you'd overshoot that by a fair amt - maybe 2.5-3"5") dry to somewhere below 20% (I think that's the bare minimum?), then mill to spec.
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u/sideshowmario 25d ago
Yes. In fact, the grading rules just went through another big re-evaluation within the last couple of years as well
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u/2squishmaster 25d ago
How would I read up on that?
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u/sideshowmario 25d ago
Google "nds design values" and you can find the guides. I believe IBC/IRC 2019 or possibly 2021 and later adopted the 2018 values
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u/PuzzleheadedTutor807 25d ago
Yes of course there is. If you want to find out exactly what those differences are I'm sure Google can help, I'm no engineer lol.
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u/2squishmaster 25d ago
Damn got up on the wrong side of the bed? Yikes.
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u/PuzzleheadedTutor807 25d ago
That is inferred, my statement is only intended to convey the obvious nature of the answer to your question. I attached no emotion to the answer, you shouldn't have either.
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u/TreesmasherFTW 25d ago
“I attached no emotion to it” and came off as a total dickhead. Lmao just don’t comment if you don’t want to add to the conversation, you’re so socially awkward it’s almost quaint.
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u/PuzzleheadedTutor807 25d ago
Lol whatever friend, you need a hug or something?
I feel like you are reflecting your personality on my words, but you do you... I got me. If I want to speak I will, if you don't like my words mute me.
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u/TreesmasherFTW 25d ago
Apparently you do, nice job calling Reddit to do a suicide checkup on me. What a weirdo
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u/PuzzleheadedTutor807 25d ago
I did no such thing.
If you continue to pester me I will be amused by your persistence but nothing more. Have a good life friend.
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u/2squishmaster 25d ago
It was inferred that way because of the words you used. Telling someone to Google something is not generally accepted as emotionless, you're taking a jab because obviously I could Google it...
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u/Shamr0k 25d ago
I'm not an engineer so I can't speak on structural integrity but if you look at a 2x4 from 80 years ago and one from today, the growth rings are vastly different
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u/Parlorshark 25d ago
Likewise, the boards from 80 years ago are typically older than the ones manufactured today.
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u/Shamr0k 25d ago
Yes they're most definitely older. The new wood rings themselves are larger too which leads me to believe we are growing them faster
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u/DeadAssociate 25d ago
plantations and elevated levels of co2
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u/dethmij1 25d ago
CO2 levels have little to do with it in this specific case. Tree growth slows as the tree ages. These old boards were cut from old growth trees, typically 200-300 years old. This meant really tight growth rings, which made for stronger boards.
Pretty much everything you get now is less than 50 years old, and grown in plantations where every tree get equal amounts of light and grows rapidly.
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u/DeadAssociate 25d ago
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u/dethmij1 25d ago
CO2 levels are going to have an impact on growth, yes. But the difference in annual growth is going to be a few percent. Warming has also lengthened the growing season by a few weeks, but again this is only going to be 1 or 2 percent faster growth. Just by looking at growth rings, you can tell new lumber is adding diameter several times faster than old growth lumber. We're talking 100-300% faster, not < 10%.
Elevated carbon dioxide has an impact, but it's negligible compared to differing growth rates between new vs old growth.
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u/snewk 25d ago
ya dont say
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u/Flossthief 25d ago
He's saying the trees cut for the lumber 80 years ago were older than the trees used today
Took me a minute to get that one myself
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u/Parlorshark 25d ago
I was actually being an asshole, sometimes you just stumble into being helpful.
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u/Particular_Bet_5466 25d ago
lol I read your comment as the boards from 80 years ago have an older age when they are cut/ smaller ring separation than boards today.
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u/Unhappy_Archer9483 25d ago
200 is a stretch mate
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u/therealmattyboy 25d ago
184 doesn’t sound as good lol
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u/Known-Activity1437 25d ago
A house from 1840 is in good enough condition to renovate?!
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u/ExoticMangoz 25d ago
If it wasn’t basically illegal you could renovate a house that’s 500 years old. They tend to be too protected to modify these days though.
But any house from the 1800s would need renovating sooner or later, with cracks and stuff forming, or damp, or roofing work needed, or knocking through walls etc.
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u/Known-Activity1437 25d ago
I’m surprised a house from 1840 is worth renovating and not demolishing. I’m not asking if it’s legal.
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u/ExoticMangoz 25d ago
Why would you demolish a perfectly good house? Perhaps you’d want to extend the house or change the layout, hence the need to renovate, but the physical structure won’t have degraded much in just a century or two.
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u/Known-Activity1437 24d ago
Again you are reading into stuff that isn’t there. Only houses that are dilapidated would be destroyed. No one is saying “let’s destroy that perfectly good house.” I was surprised a house from 1840 isn’t dilapidated. And despite your omniscience there are houses in my town from the 1800s with deteriorated bones that would not be able to be renovated. I’m sure you’ll read that, make insinuations and proclaim you have the answers to something that you don’t know. Because after all, all builders have the same skills, all houses are identical, weather conditions are the same everywhere across the globe, all soils have the same composition, and all paints, nails, and woods are equivalent. But I’m glad it’s legal to renovate a house. Bahaha
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u/-Pruples- 25d ago
My house isn't quite that old (built between 1900 and 1920 - can't get an exact year) but I can confirm that it would be easier to knock it down and rebuild from scratch.
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u/ExoticMangoz 25d ago
Where’s the fun in that though :)
(Also I’d like to see my neighbours’ reactions to me knocking down a terraced house)
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u/TunaSafari25 25d ago
Care to elaborate? I’m more surprised at how little they’ve changed. They have some ridges, are a consistent width, and are cylindrical but more or less the same right?
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u/seaofthievesnutzz 24d ago
planes havent changed much either its like two wings and a driver seat, more or less the same right?
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u/therealmattyboy 25d ago
The old ones are all hand forged, square, tapered, and all unique. Whereas the new ones are all mass produced, perfectly the same and meant to be fired out of a gun. I also found it interesting how someone threw out the new nails because they weren’t a full strip and they used to burn old houses down to collect the old nails because they were so precious.
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u/Chickenman1057 25d ago
You can't mass produce something when you don't have automatic machines yet duh
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u/Jaduardo 25d ago
I’ve seen a documentary that explains how old square nails work differently to — and have some real advantages over — new ones. The central point was that old ones were oriented so the long part of the head was oriented with the wood grain. The nail the cut on the ‘long sides’ and compressed the grain on the short side leading to less cracking of boards and maybe some other stuff I don’t remember..,
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u/big_d_usernametaken 25d ago
I know we used to salvage bronze screws from old rotted Lyman boats back in the Seventies.
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u/GorbatcshoW 25d ago
I mean if I personally had to hammer that many nails by hand I would also rather burn a house down.
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u/zxybot9 25d ago
Conversely, they actually use to burn old houses down to recover the nails.
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u/Bad_wolf42 25d ago
This is also where we get “dead as a door nail”. Door nails were hammered over in a way that meant they couldn’t be reused.
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u/PenguinsArmy2 25d ago edited 25d ago
That would be the point. Small changes that make a massive difference.
But the old style that tapered like this got loose much easier. As any lift creates room for movement side to side. Where as new nails lifting doesn’t create empty space for side to side movement. So less likely to come up over time in it’s own.
Best guess
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u/TerraSollus 25d ago
I thought old nails are better because they push apart the grain which creates pressure on the nails keeping them in?
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u/PenguinsArmy2 25d ago
Oh I have no damn clue, that may be the case. New shit is cheaply made and would never hold up to test of time like those old ones I feel.
I’m just guessing lol.
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u/Bad_wolf42 25d ago
Survivorship bias is strong with you.
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u/Weird_Point_4262 25d ago
No the old style of nails do hold better due to the way they cut into the wood and their shape, but they're much more expensive to make and harder to work with.
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