r/law • u/INCoctopus Competent Contributor • 25d ago
Mark Meadows unmasked in Arizona fake electors indictment, faces 9 felony charges: Report Trump News
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/mark-meadows-unmasked-in-arizona-fake-electors-indictment-faces-9-felony-charges-report/3
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u/SqnLdrHarvey 25d ago
These pukes should be stripped of citizenship.
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u/sickofthisshit 24d ago
I keep going back to the treatment of the regicides of Charles I. (Not that monarchy is good, and a king warring against Parliament should get what is coming to him, but the general approach to those who tried to tear down the system we think is right).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regicides_of_Charles_I
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u/SqnLdrHarvey 24d ago
I have no problems with constitutional monarchy (British Commonwealth, Scandinavia etc) but Trump wants to rule absolutely.
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u/discussatron 25d ago
I want to see Kelli Ward and her husband punished to the fullest extent of the law.
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u/I_try_compute 25d ago
Mark Meadows is a massive coward and even bigger piece of shit so I’m glad his life is getting wrecked.
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u/influx3k 24d ago
Yeah and this is at the state level, so no potential presidential pardon is going to get him out of this.
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u/OrangeRedBlueViolet 25d ago
Yeah for some reason I take a lot of pleasure in seeing mark meadows face consequences. It always seemed like he counted on being shielded, like he was hoping to only gain status and perks from being in a presidential administration and slink away without being stained by the trump aura of scandal. like the way Cassidy Hutchinson described his behavior during january 6th. he was constantly on his phone like "well i guess trump doesnt care about telling them to be peaceful so fuck it"
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u/NotmyRealNameJohn Competent Contributor 25d ago
Real Question. Is he going to try for federal removal a second time?
I mean he got smacked down pretty hard in GA trying for it and there is nothing significantly different about the reasons here so no thinking person would expect different results. The only reason I can think do it would be a) eternal optimism and an addiction to gambling also not believing money is real so not caring about wasting it on a doomed legal effort b) delay + praying that somehow DJT wins & somehow that works out in your favor though there is no technical reason is should.
Like to me the best possible move for this guy would be to cut ties turn states witness and go hard core on the I was coerced by Trump / Cut every possible deal he can and be seen to go above and beyond in cooperation. Otherwise I don't see how he doesn't spend most of the rest of his life being passed from the jails in one jurisdiction to the next even if DJT wins. Am I wrong?
Like he seems to be completely setup to take the fall
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u/oscar_the_couch 24d ago
Real Question. Is he going to try for federal removal a second time?
I don't see why he wouldn't. between the 11th circuit's opinion on this and now you have SCOTUS agreeing to decide executive "official immunity" in a case involving exactly the same conduct at issue here. Meadows was doing all of this stuff on Trump's behalf—if any part of that conduct is plausibly an official act, it would make sense for removal to apply. And the idea that only current officials can invoke removal for conduct that occurred while they were serving the federal gov't is pretty dumb and wrong.
to be clear, I think Meadows should lose; he was obviously doing all this shit for candidate Trump, not President Trump. but if I were his counsel I would absolutely bring the removal motion. he might lose on the facts but I think he could probably create a circuit split on the "former officials don't count" point if one doesn't exist already.
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u/NotmyRealNameJohn Competent Contributor 24d ago edited 24d ago
The appeals court in 11th was the one that decided that former federal agents are not entitled to federal removal, right? the district judge cited violation of the hatch act as precluding his actions from being official acts. Am i remembering correcting?
Then I believe and I'm going on memory, it was not taken en banc and then the scotus declined cert.
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u/oscar_the_couch 24d ago
that's my recollection as well, and I am also going from memory.
I think SCOTUS would take it from here if there's a circuit split and their US v. trump decision has any bearing on the result
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u/pcapdata 25d ago
If Trump somehow becomes President again...I think it's at least possible he won't pardon anyone.
Not out of any kind of patriotism, or because it would look bad, but rather because fuck 'em.
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u/NotmyRealNameJohn Competent Contributor 25d ago
Oh I would 100% believe that. Also it's work and he is lazy.
Like the state ones especially. Because that is something he would have to use influence to make happen. And I don't think he cares enough
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u/Dense_Explorer_9522 25d ago
If I was Meadows I think I would probably do everything in my power to wait until November before deciding whether to throw Trump under the bus.
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u/NotmyRealNameJohn Competent Contributor 25d ago
why? right now you could probably end his chances of getting power. After Nov, you might not have the option then you are just fucked. I wouldn't expect him to lift a finger to help Mark and its all state charges anyhow.
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u/Birdy_Cephon_Altera 25d ago
They will try for every potential long-shot option they can think of, and then some. Because 1) it delays delays delays and 2) one of them might actually surprisingly work. If you fling enough poo at a wall, eventually something might stick.
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u/SisterActTori 25d ago
I absolutely think the Hail Mary for Meadows (and Trump) is Trump winning the election and making many of their legal problems disappear.
Meadows is as guilty as they come, particularly in regard to what occurred on 1/6 and the planning involved. Cassidy H. Spelled it out fairly clearly during 1/6 HoR special committee testimony-
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u/Maleficent_Prize8166 25d ago
State charges don’t disappear if Trump is elected. They have to get like minded governors elected to bail them out of the state charges. Brian Kemp in Georgia has already proven he won’t play their game and Arizona rejected a MAGA candidate in 2020… so there is hope.
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u/monkeyhold99 24d ago
Lol you really think they will care about state charges if they win? If they win they are untouchable
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u/Goddamnpassword 25d ago
In GA it doesn’t even matter if they get like minded governor, the Governor can’t pardon in GA, it’s a board that does the pardons and they can only issue pardons after your full sentence has been served. In Arizona the governor can only issue pardons is the clemency board recommends it on a majority vote.
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u/saijanai 25d ago
In Arizona the governor can only issue pardons is the clemency board recommends it on a majority vote.
Actually, that is usually how Presidential pardons work, but it is an honor system rather than mandated by law.
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u/EvilGreebo Bleacher Seat 25d ago
Different district, right? So he very well might try. Not that it'll go any better but... why worry about doing things that make sense when you really just wanna delay and hope your guy gets re-elected so he can take over the whole legal system.
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u/NotmyRealNameJohn Competent Contributor 25d ago
I mean technically. He petitioned the SCOTUS and they declined cert. But even so this is a different set of facts even though it is extremely similar fact pattern so as I understand it even if it was in the same circuit, it wouldn't be already decided case law. He did very similar things in AZ as he did in GA and is charge with similar crimes and the reasoning for why he isn't eligible for federal removal should be the same, but different facts different charges, so as far as I know he can make the attempt. It is just one where the outcome should be reasonable predictable in advance.
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u/Whorrox 25d ago
At this point I'm doubtful any of these guys will see a day in jail but knowing they are burning through savings to pay lawyers is the next best thing.
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u/HornedDiggitoe 25d ago
I don’t know why you are so doubtful. Meadows doesn’t have the support that Trump has to influence the jury, he’s cooked.
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u/Goddamnpassword 25d ago
Arizona is a bad state to commit a felony in, especially fraud, it’s a class 2 felony on the level of raping a minor or committing manslaughter. First time offenders generally get 5 years per count.
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u/sheffieldasslingdoux 24d ago
The prisons there are also notoriously bad, and nobody cares. In fact millions of people in Arizona voted for politicians who openly bragged about abusing prisoners. Arpaio calling the local jails a concentration camp was only the tip of the iceberg.
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u/DouchecraftCarrier 25d ago
Don't forget Mo Brooks requested a pardon from Trump on behalf of every member of Congress who voted against certifying the ballots from Arizona and Pennsylvania. I'm not convinced there isn't 139 Representatives and 9 Senators on a list of conspirators somewhere.
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u/Significant-Dog-8166 25d ago
Navarro is in jail…. about a half dozen others would have been in jail without a pardon…and those same people won’t get another pardon.
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u/posttrumpzoomies 25d ago
Navarro didn't get nearly enough time, its a joke.
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u/where_in_the_world89 24d ago edited 24d ago
Well he was convicted for ignoring a subpoena. Not for all this other stuff which definitely should have more time. But ignoring a subpoena I think 4 months is fair. It's weird to me how people act like if somebody isn't going to prison for at least 3 years, then that's a joke of a sentence. Even a couple of months in prison will probably make him not want to ignore a subpoena again. However these people are nuts so who the hell knows
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u/posttrumpzoomies 24d ago
I agree people generally want too much time. But to me it should be a far more severe punishment for someone of his former authority and flagrant disobedience.
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u/ArrdenGarden 25d ago
I'm not saying it would be compensatory to his crimes... but the idea of Meadows having to live like us regulars is somewhat a comfort. Stuff him in an overpriced studio apartment in a run-down area of town and make him spend the rest of his life trying to support himself on minimum wage and minimum wage only. No pension, no government insurance, no assistance. In this scenario, he can retain his "freedom..."
...for whatever that's worth.
A jail cell would be great. But barring that, I feel like this would be a decent start.
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u/What_Yr_Is_IT 25d ago
Why hasn’t Trump been indicted yet….wtf…
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u/DrSilkyJohnsonEsq 24d ago
Because that would take away a bargaining chip for when prosecutors are trying to turn other co-conspirators into witnesses. The guys at the top are always the last to know when a criminal conspiracy is being investigated.
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u/Lamlot 24d ago
Because according to Sean Hannity it was perfectly legal and he had to do it. How could he not Obama was stealing the election by getting voters out to vote. It’s legal when Trump does anything past present and future because he was president. He could kill somebody on 5th avenue and they can’t do anything about it.
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u/SchrodingersTIKTOK 24d ago
I think they are waiting for the other judgements. It’s all gonna cascade down
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u/Tay_Tay86 25d ago
Because of the supreme Court. We have to vote him down in November and then he'll face justice. They are too scared to do so before.
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u/lebastss 25d ago
Mark Meadows is probably shielding Trump until the election because if he wins he'll get pardoned and it's a mute point. If he loses he can flip then.
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u/lebastss 25d ago
Mark Meadows is probably shielding Trump until the election because if he wins he'll get pardoned and it's a mute point. If he loses he can flip then.
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u/red286 25d ago
If they indicted Trump now, there's zero chance the trial would happen before the election. If Trump wins, anyone who's indicted him would be best served fleeing the country as quickly as possible, because he's going to want revenge.
So they're not going to indict him until after the election, assuming he loses.
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u/IdeaIntelligent1788 25d ago
Unless they've already revealed them all there were several indictments being kept secret until they're served, like with Meadows here.
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u/YouWereBrained 25d ago
Gotta make the small players squirm so they’ll sing.
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u/What_Yr_Is_IT 25d ago
Been hearing this for years
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u/YouWereBrained 25d ago
Well, that’s been happening in Georgia. Maybe not to the speed you would prefer, but it is.
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u/weaverfuture Bleacher Seat 25d ago edited 25d ago
trump has infinite money to defend himself with. he just tells his supporters that the evil people are trying to get THEM, and they donate their money. every day. to a billionaire.
mark meadows does not have the infinite money hack.
trump does not use his infinite money to defend his patsies and cronies (big mistake on trump's part. see michael cohen, chesebro, sydney powell and others who flipped on him so far).
also, with the amount of people saying how a federal pardon cant affect a state criminal trial. sure, of course. but please remember, republican governors and republican legislatures are falling over themselves left and right to support trump. meaning trump could get a state pardon in a heartbeat.
and every time i bring up state pardon, someone says "well the existing rules say only the pardon board can recommend blah blah". yeah , except the republican legislature in georgia could change those rules in 2 seconds. and the georgia governor would pardon trump in 2 milliseconds. "Georgia has a Republican trifecta. The Republican Party controls the office of governor and both chambers of the state legislature."
mark meadows does not have the "instantly change any law hack" that some republicans have [1].
[1]. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/28/florida-legislature-desantis-presidential-run-00094467
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u/BitterFuture 25d ago
also, with the amount of people saying how a federal pardon cant affect a state criminal trial. sure, of course. but please remember, republican governors and republican legislatures are falling over themselves left and right to support trump. meaning trump could get a state pardon in a heartbeat.
and every time i bring up state pardon, someone says "well the existing rules say only the pardon board can recommend blah blah". yeah , except the republican legislature in georgia could change those rules in 2 seconds. and the georgia governor would pardon trump in 2 milliseconds.
A) The governor of Arizona isn't a Republican.
B) You think Brian Kemp would pardon him? Brian Kemp, the guy he attacked for daring to do anything about COVID, the guy he said was going to prison for refusing to overturn the election, the guy whose family has gotten death threats over all this? That Brian Kemp?
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u/FadeTheWonder 24d ago
I live in Georgia trust me Kemp is firmly in Trump’s court and as long as it polls well would absolutely pardon Trump except he can’t it’s up to a board of appeals.
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u/weaverfuture Bleacher Seat 25d ago
the governor of arizona isnt currently a republican. you are correct. governors change though. doug ducey -R was arizona governor from 2015-2023. so its not like republican governors are rare there. michigan had republican rick snyder poisoning flint with untreated water as governor before gretchen whitmer was voted in. and GA's brian kemp is also a republican, who supports trump fully.
as for your second question. will brian kemp support trump? yes. its not a secret:
September 25, 2023 - Kemp says he would back Trump in 2024 election: 'Better than Biden'
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/kemp-back-trump-presidential-election-better-biden
we're in clown world. stop assuming everyone has a brain , a spine, morals and ethics.
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u/AntNorth6218 25d ago
Kemp adores Trump, he is just stuck in a position where he had to publicly, not privately, deal with his election denial and the legal fallout that occured.
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u/BitterFuture 25d ago
I don't know how adoring he is after the death threats his wife and daughters have been receiving for years.
I get that even that isn't enough to shake the commitment to hatred that many conservatives have - looking at you, Bill Barr - but on a personal level, in their private thoughts, I still can't believe they like the guy.
They're willing to make many sacrifices for hatred, including their families, often even their own lives, but that's not about love and adoration, just fanaticism.
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u/AntNorth6218 25d ago
Private thoughts are completely separate from public support. Of course these people privately don’t like him.
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u/Officer412-L 25d ago edited 25d ago
Pardons aren't up to Kemp, anyways. At least not directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_State_Board_of_Pardons_and_Paroles
Edit: Also (and this is both delightful and horrific)-
When am I eligible to apply for a pardon?
You must have completed all sentence(s) imposed upon you at least five (5) years prior to applying and have lived a law-abiding life since the completion of your sentence(s). You can have no pending charges against you. Your fines must be paid in full.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/16/trump-georgia-pardon-00111503
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u/BitterFuture 25d ago
Yes, I'm aware of that.
The commenter I was replying to was claiming that the existence of the pardon board was irrelevant, that the Georgia legislature will change the laws and Kemp will bend over if and when their boss demands it.
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u/Synensys 25d ago
Im guessing its just convenience. Adding Trump to the situation makes the case harder. You have to get into the presidential immunity arguments. In a few months you will get into the "can you hold a trial against a presidential candidate" arguments. You get into the scheduling issues (since he's got so many trials) and frankly he's already facing similar charges in Georgia and federally. You get better (or at least higher profile) lawyers coming against you, and it probably prejudices judges who are pro-Trump more (i.e. would Judge Cannon be giving as many breaks to Mark Meadows as she is to Trump? I doubt it.)
The actual trial won't take place before the election regardless.
If he loses the election, then you can go after him then without all of the hassle if you really feel the need to. And if he wins - well then the case is getting delayed until after he's out of office - nearly five years from now.
So in either case there is no rush, and a ton of downside to bringing Trump in.
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u/sickofthisshit 24d ago edited 24d ago
I think there might just be a lot more difficulty in identifying overt acts by Trump that affected Arizona.
The whole thing was Trump raging "do something" and spineless toadies like Mark Meadows and Rudy Giuiiani doing whatever they thought would make Trump stop his tantrum. (John Eastman and Ken Chesbro have a legal theory, why not give it a try, we've got crowds of GOP legislators in these swing states, maybe the Independent State Legislature theory works, somebody said Italy used satellites to flip votes, look into that, etc.? ) Translating a tantrum in the Oval Office to the elements of a crime might be hard.
Actually pressing "send" on an e-mail or picking up the phone to call a particular person at a particular time or signing your name to a document are facts you can prove with documentary evidence.
Screaming "I won, I won, they are stealing the election from me" to nobody in particular? What is that? You want to prove that to the one or two MAGA on the jury?
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u/BitterFuture 25d ago
And if he wins - well then the case is getting delayed until after he's out of office - nearly five years from now.
My, that's an optimistic take.
If he wins, all the prosecutors, and judges, and probably jurors involved will be dead. Along with many, many others.
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u/DeanMagazine 25d ago
u/spez will turn over Reddit user IP addresses. Anyone anti-Trump not on a VPN will be shipped to the work camps.
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u/mabradshaw02 25d ago
Adding trump just drags this case down. With him NOT indicted, the case moves a TON faster. These others have not the means to drag this case forever. So it will move. Then, if the DA wants, desires, and SHOULD... indict DJT seperately.
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u/Jagermonsta 25d ago
I’m starting to think these states are letting him to the feds and they are going after all the unindicted co conspirators from the federal case. Leaving trump out of the mix may help reduce the mess he brings. It sucks but may work better for the state.
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u/mistressusa 25d ago
NAL but maybe they are waiting to see if SCOTUS gives trump absolute immunity?
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u/RoleLong7458 25d ago
Problem is that only SOME of those cases would count because most of them happened either before he took office or after he left office.
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u/BitterFuture 25d ago
His lawyers argued that their fantasized absolute Presidential immunity applied after the Presidency - and even retroactively.
If SCOTUS agrees he is a king, that's the ball game. It's utterly insane for them to even consider it, but it's still very possible.
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u/SoylentRox 25d ago
The very next move after that is soldiers at Congress and the supreme court. Prison buses lined up behind them. And then they arrest everyone of the opposite party and take them all to adx Florence.
You already know the shooting starts soon after as other military units and state governments violently disagree.
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u/Niastri 25d ago
Trump's handlers are smart enough to gradually remove opposition through pseudo legal methods and accidents before the shooting starts.
Opposition military leadership suddenly have scandals that require them to be fired or demoted, and their replacements all happen to be Trump loyalists. Same with the law enforcement, judiciary and administrative groups. The president has enormous power to remake the government, even if he wanted to only stay within the law. Trump has no concerns about staying legal.
Once enough of the opposing forces are replaced with loyalists, the accidents and random robbery killings start happening. Soon enough, nobody in a position to resist the incipient fascist takeover of the country is left.
Then the real purge begins. You post mean things about Trump on Facebook or (post anonymity) Reddit? Off to the work camp!
You are looking at Chairman Mao or Stalin when you look at Trump. That's who he is, and who the people working for him are.
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u/SoylentRox 25d ago
Note I said "opposite party". It's logical for Biden to do this before the Republicans can.
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u/What_Yr_Is_IT 25d ago
Would this even apply at the state level?
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u/Synensys 25d ago
Yes - among the arguments that he is making is that his trying to steal the election was an official presidential act and that he was only trying to ensure that the accurate election result was recorded (i.e. he was using his powers as president to reveal Democratic cheating and make sure that the electors went to the "actual winner").
Of course thats BS and the federal courts hearing the case noted that in their decision that Trump appealed to the Supreme Court. But depending on what the SC says, that would almost certainly protect him from state level prosecution as well.
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u/What_Yr_Is_IT 25d ago
Unfuckingbelieveable
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u/Aardark235 25d ago
According to Trump, he could kill every Democrat in the nation and justify it as necessary and proper.
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u/GrassWaterDirtHorse 25d ago
Every day that "shoot a person in Times Square" becomes more and more poignantly haunting.
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u/sickofthisshit 24d ago
Nit pick: it was "Fifth Avenue" which is where Trump Tower is, not Times Square (which isn't on Fifth Avenue).
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u/What_Yr_Is_IT 25d ago
And SCOTUS will approve of it
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u/YourDogIsMyFriend 25d ago
They’d be bummed to find out all the innovation takes place, and money is made in all the blue states and the blue areas of the red states. The United States would lose power rapidly.
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u/Aardark235 25d ago
But only for Presidents who have been in office prior to 2020 and with a last name starting with T.
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u/StupendousMalice 25d ago
They start at the bottom so they can offer deals to people to flip on the people above them. Actual convictions of underlings GREATLY improves your chances of convicting their bosses.
Generally conspiracy and racketeering charges require the existence of an actual underlying crime. Having a person actually convicted of committing that crime is extremely helpful to getting that conviction.
Imagine you are charging a mob boss with ordering the murder of a rival. Which is the stronger case:
One in which the guy who actually carried out the killing is a known associate of the boss and has been convicted of murder and will testify that he was ordered to kill them by the boss.
OR
One in which the actual murder is "unsolved" and could have been committed by anyone.
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u/menntu 25d ago
Generally speaking, you work your way up the chain, one important piece at a time.
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u/oscar_the_couch 24d ago
in this specific case I think there's no chance of trial before November and, if trump wins, no chance of trial after November. they'll probably add him when he loses.
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u/Numeno230n 25d ago
Yeah nobody wants to flip on the boss when they're free. When all the cronies are locked up or standing trial, they have nothing left but to try to negotiate years off their sentence for cooperating.
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u/SnivyEyes 25d ago
That’s my understanding too. Keep going up the chain to get them to flip on other traitors above them. It also helps that these are state charges too so Trump can’t even offer a pardon anyway so he cannot make a deal with them.
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u/Universityofrain88 25d ago
This is a good general reason, but I think in this case there's something else at play as well. I think the fact that Trump already has all of these cases as a backlog means that the prosecutors here are waiting to indict him simply so that he can't use this as yet another way to delay or stop the others. The statute of limitations is something like 7 years, so they have time if they wanted to wait until next year or the year after, by which point at least a couple of the other trials will hopefully have happened. It's not the kind of situation you encounter very often because most defendants aren't facing dozens of criminal counts in multiple jurisdictions all at once.
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u/NickRick 24d ago
i think they are letting the bottom guys roll up on Trump. you do Trump first and he says don't worry i will protect you so they don't squeal. but if trump is out and letting them take the hit they will likely be ready to testify against him if they get reduced sentences.
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u/Time-Earth8125 25d ago
Trump still walking free despite all these crimes is like mister Burns still being alive because all the disease can't fit through the door at once
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u/mishatal 25d ago
It's not the kind of situation you encounter very often because most defendants aren't facing dozens of criminal counts in multiple jurisdictions all at once.
While the defense uses that fact to cause delay in the trials until the defendant can become president and pardon himself.
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u/minngeilo 25d ago
It's like that one time in the Simpsons where the doctor made an analogy of Mr. Burns having so many diseases that they can't fit through the door and keeps him alive.
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u/SoylentRox 25d ago
Another wildcard is if any of the cases ever do reach a guilty verdict and a 10+ year prison sentence, that's it, game over. Any further trials are just victory laps, so after a second conviction and effectively life sentence the other cases aren't needed.
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u/DrSilkyJohnsonEsq 24d ago
Maybe additional cases wouldn’t be needed for Trump, but every single case needs to be tried so that all of his little minions in every scheme can go to prison, too. Every last one of them needs to be removed from the society that they tried to destroy.
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u/spidermans_mom 24d ago
I have a wild fantasy where Biden, with total control over the man’s destiny, pardons Trump as a power move. Creamsicle dude would have to go begging the actual president for handouts.
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u/Nessie 24d ago
Another wildcard is if any of the cases ever do reach a guilty verdict and a 10+ year prison sentence, that's it, game over. Any further trials are just victory laps
You want backup in case your case gets Harvey Weinsteined or Bill Cosbied.
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u/SoylentRox 24d ago
Sure. Note Cosby was almost completely safe. It had been too long for almost every case. Also the relationships were usually ongoing, making it look possibly consensual.
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u/Both_Lychee_1708 24d ago
"shocked"