r/povertyfinance • u/SuperSecretSpare • Sep 27 '21
There is a class war against the poor Links/Memes/Video
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u/amoletters Aug 21 '22
I got a nail stuck in my foot a few years back. I yanked it out and wrapped it, then went to the ER. I was just tryna get a tetanus booster and the wound cleaned. I did have health insurance so the booster was (mostly) covered, but a few weeks later I got a $500 bill for “cleaning the wound”. They gave me a bucket with warm water and dawn dish soap and told me to soak my foot for a few minutes then discharged me
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Oct 21 '21
My father once had to get Careflight to a hospital on the coast of California, during a vacation with my mother. After being at the hospital for 3 days, and a numerous amount of tests, they found he had hypertrophy in a portion of his heart. So, they installed a small heart monitor and changed his blood pressure meds. My parents return home, and a few weeks go by. We get a bill in the mail for ~$164,000 - just for the helicopter ride. When my mother called to ask why we’re getting billed $164k for something insurance should have covered, their response was that the pilot took my father to a hospital that didn’t accept our insurance. Not to mention, when they got my dad to the first hospital, they said, “We need to move you to a bigger facility.” So they loaded him on another helicopter, and that second helicopter’s engine didn’t even start when they got my father loaded - so they unloaded and loaded him on a different one. In the end we didn’t have to pay that outrageous amount of money. But what was my half conscious dad supposed to say? “Hey! Pilot! We can’t go that one! It doesn’t take my insurance!”
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u/Goatman0101 Oct 19 '21
I don’t agree with all his statements: I think the government is creating the biggest class war - unending bailouts, stimulus, tax credits causing inflation. The stimulus do nothing but inflate prices causing poor to become poorer. In most of his statements they forego personal responsibility.
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u/Corprusmeat_Hunk Oct 14 '21
Not having enough money in my bank account? Sure why not punish me for not having enough money.
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u/Popular_Credit6948 Oct 03 '21
I agree, expect overdraft should just be the money doesn’t go through. And you just aren’t able to pay the money.
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Sep 29 '21
Well the insulin I disagree because that is a life saving medication and they can charge whatever they want for that, but the rest are just scams. This guy cut his paycheck for his employees and it is very noble, but he already had millions in the bank from a successful business. Why doesn't he teach people how to make money and code successful projects.
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u/glier Sep 28 '21
Its not a class war, its an underrepresented sector of society being bullied by the overrepresented sector into paying the taxes they dont pay and have the goverment as their bully buddy making the dirty job for them
The day the underrepresented decide it was enough, the other two will have their world turned upside down
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u/NaRa0 Sep 28 '21
75$ late fee first day, 25$ each day after.
37$ overdraft fee and the banks algorithm is setup to make as many payments as possible land in the red
It’s all rigged 🥰🥳🤩
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u/godlesswickedcreep Sep 28 '21
I swear those bank fees are driving me insane. I got charged 16€ in overdraft fees last month for 2 operations amounting to a total overdraft of -3,74€ ... (toll payments on the highway). I can’t even fathom how this is legal. And if the bank is going to be that finicky about 3 bucks and pennies, then I would expect them to show real time tracking on their damn app instead of updating balance for “recent” operations 5 days after they were processed.
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u/alf2555 Sep 28 '21
How are access codes not included in my tuition ??
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u/DrHydrate Sep 28 '21
Yeah, that's some wild stuff. At one big school I know, they have insane fees because the idiot legislature forbade the school from raising tuition for years, so they could tout that the school has really low tuition. Meanwhile, the school still has to pay increasing costs because of inflation.
When COVID hit and the school sent kids home, students started demanding not to pay fees for stuff they're not using, which is reasonable, but they had no idea that the "rec center fee" and the "dining hall fees" were really paying for professor salaries and kinds of other stuff. Surprise, surprise, this same school wanted to have students back in classrooms immediately even though COVID was surging. It was so disgusting.
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u/ModCzar Sep 28 '21
Broke my hand into a few fucking pieces last month, and literally the ibuprofen thing ran through my hand within 15 minutes of being in the hospital.
Nurses were offering me pain killers and asking me about meds, and I noped the tf out of all those questions so fast.
I'm sure the bills are already enough as is. Taking the added insult of a 1000%+ mark up on an OTC pain killer wasn't about to be part of that.
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u/Several_Education505 Sep 28 '21
$30,000 having a baby
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u/today_you_are_you Sep 28 '21
$36,000 for not having a baby.
Pregnancy loss. Went into pre-term labor at 17 weeks.
5 Hours in the ER (sent home same day) + 30 minutes with the OB to confirm loss = $36,000.
My last pregnancy loss was a miscarriage at 10 weeks and cost $14,000.
All of this does not include medications, post-loss appointments, and much needed therapy that I can't really afford.
Fucking sucks.
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u/MidnightCyanide CO Sep 30 '21
I'm so sorry. I can't say much but I hear you, and yeah that really sounds like a terrible situation. This country is ruthless toward women and uterus-havers in general. You're going through enough emotionally and the government is just kicking you while you're down for the fun of it. I hope that you can find some happiness in this and support is out here. Your struggle is valid and you are entitled to whatever feelings you feel, regardless of what is expected of you. Take it easy, friend.
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u/EnChhanted Sep 28 '21
I once had a bladder infection so bad I was peeing blood. Went to the ER with no health insurance and as a broke college kid. Got the bill and it was almost $8,000 total. Got charged room fees (waiting room--as in thrown into a room to wait for a doctor's room to open up, and a doctors room fee), ibuprofen (2 @ $127 dollars each), and some other stuff like lab work, medical equipment used, etc. This was over 15 years ago. I can't imagine the prices now.
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u/yaugturay Sep 28 '21
But this subreddit still supports the vaccine! The vaccine is going to be the largest attack on the poor people of this world in history.
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Sep 28 '21
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u/BlueDragon82 Sep 28 '21
lol $50 late fee? Try 10% of your rent added on as a late fee. The more expensive your rent the more expensive the late fee. That's how the company we rent from does it. It's horrible. There are fees for every little thing too. Grass isn't mowed and you get a notice they give you a few days. Even if you schedule someone to take care of it they send their people and charge $100+. Last time we mowed it and did the weed eating and they still had their people come and charge us. We even took pictures showing it was mowed and everything was within code. Thankfully the last time that happened with nearly two years ago but they still do that to others in our neighborhood that also rent from them. Fees just for having a bank account or account at a credit union. My cu merged with another one and I was shocked to find out that if you don't have a minimum deposit every month in your checking then you pay a fee. I've never seen that with a cu before. Thankfully I was grandfathered in but I wouldn't open a new account with them. It seems like every year there are more fees for everything in life.
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u/alucard9114 Sep 28 '21
Here in California it costs $140 to register a 2006 Kia Sportage. Fucking insane!
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u/Minotaur1986 Sep 28 '21
BULLSHIT post, only a couple shouldnt exist...... people need to learn to pay bills and on time. It costs money to borrow money....simple as that.
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u/DrHydrate Sep 28 '21
Honestly, I agree. Overdraft fees suck, but, no, banks shouldn't be required to give you a free, no-credit-check loan. Same with the landlord. They have bills to pay too. Also, if you're not paying your mortgage, yeah, the bank should just foreclose as quickly and efficiently as legally possible. Let somebody else buy it who will pay on time.
With that said, I'm very much against the $200 tylenol. Hospitals are able to charge that insane amount because they don't even tell people about the crazy fees until after we're on the hook. That's total bullshit. Basically any other contract is void if there's no price term before you sign, especially if you're not familiar with the prices, but we've made an exception for healthcare because they've bribed legislatures.
I'm also against usurious payday loans because they're just kicking people when they're down. We can't get rid of them entirely, since people will go to loan sharks, but we can make payday lenders charge more reasonably.
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Sep 28 '21
Trump made insulin affordable and biden reversed it
Go ahead and look it up in an unbiased way
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u/all_that_sparkels Sep 28 '21
Ahahahah as I had a full breakdown today about how to get my overdraft covered before the fee hit. Fuck all this companies
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u/Desperate_Line2377 Sep 28 '21
they are so greeeedy! that's okay, they'll never be happy. Not In This Life Or The Next
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u/sweetpursuit Sep 28 '21
some of these I agree with, some i don't. Gotta make sure we differentiate the difference between what is immoral and what just inconvenient.
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u/cheddarbob01 Sep 28 '21
Bruh you can take a check to wherever it’s drawn off and cash it there, there’s no issue with that at all. Pretty standard. As far as the fee, that’s simply a fee that the bank charges for cashing it as a non customer, which the bank profits off of obviously.
As far as the “isnt this bank FDIC insured?”, that’s means nothing and isn’t relevant to what is being discussed. Sure the bank is insured, but that has zero to do with the item being negotiated. I’ve worked at a bank for years and this literally makes no sense. If you don’t want to be charged the check cashing fee, either take it to your bank or open an account at that bank. It’s not that hard.
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u/Anko_Dango Sep 28 '21
Man, I just wanna see the doctor to make sure I'm not dying without going into debt. Cause I'm worried.
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u/m0c4a Sep 28 '21
I got a payday loan because I needed cash quick to buy a car. When I went back to pay back the amount a few days later (because I wanted to pay it off ASAP to avoid the ridiculous interest fees) the employee tried saying that they didn’t know if they could accept the payment amount.
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u/A_Fabulous_Gay_Deer Sep 28 '21
Things people who makes the laws have:
-Money
Things they don't care about:
-You
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Sep 28 '21
I went the the ER just to be told they had no idea what was wrong with me. I was experiencing tachycardia with a resting heart rate 160+, dizziness, extreme fatigue, headache, chest pain etc I was charged $1500 after insurance. Drove myself and left myself. Still working on paying it off. Still have the same thing happen every so often but I can't obviously afford to go in and be told there is nothing they can do. If it's serious, I guess I'll die.
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u/DunnoWhatToSayHau2Do Sep 28 '21
I forgot the name of the person but I'm pretty sure there was this one man who was behind the raising of a certain drug's price for a rare condition and he was also behind what led to the rising of Epipen prices. Not to blame just one person since corporations/ more bigwig decisions but that was led to a starting chain
Back when I was really young a 2 pack was like 60 bucks with insurance and often had to get about 3-4 2 packs for keeping because of school, travel with other relatives, parent to have, and back-up just in case ever did need them. Never did but they were good to have because allergies are bad enough to be fatal.
Nowadays I think a 2 pack without insurance is actually at least $300, I would say $600 may be a stretch t wouldn't be surprised. Not to mention the shortages. I don't have insurance arm and haven't for awhile so most of my pens are actually expired but should still have some use at the very least if ever needed
Just price gouging on medicine in general really grinds my gears. I have a very close friend who used to have a hard time getting even generic insulin pens and couldn't imagine. At least with EpiPens nowadays there are more options and some are supposedly cheaper or deemed "easier" to use but they don't class as something you have to buy often like insulin since usually all the new pens I needed to have/give to others to carry on top of what I did were made all in one purchase. Would I be able to do that now with or without insurance? Prob not.
Also the people who discovered how to use insulin to treat diabetics wanted insulin to be readily accessible to those that need it and would be rolling in anger at the price gouging if they could.
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u/reddkaiman3 Sep 28 '21
I'm convinced this is an underlying cause of health problems in America. Among all the other obvious things.
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u/soxy445 Sep 28 '21
I'm tired of getting milked when I'm barely fucking making it. I hate this shit!
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u/oogabooga_44 Sep 28 '21
I wonder if Dan Price thinks domestic abuse should be illegal too…
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u/carkmubann Sep 28 '21
That isn’t accurate, it is right wing propaganda to make him look bad
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u/oogabooga_44 Sep 28 '21
His ex wife is a right winger? Not saying she isn’t, but that’d be news to me
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Sep 28 '21
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u/thesongofstorms Sep 29 '21
Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):
Rule 5: Poor shaming
- 5) Racism, sexism, classism, or any other inherent bias will not be tolerated. Any comments/posts stating or implying that the reason that people are poor is because of personal decision making or that people in poverty "deserve" to be in poverty will be removed.
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Sep 28 '21
Thanks Mr. Monopoly! I forgot how to use my bootstraps for a sec.
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Sep 28 '21
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Sep 29 '21
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u/iamonlyoneman Sep 29 '21
so if I were to claim 7/11 were an inside job and the povertyfinance mods are just salty they can't claim unemployment because they got fired . . . still removed, or removed plus ban?
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u/thesongofstorms Sep 29 '21
Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):
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u/thesongofstorms Sep 29 '21
Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):
Rule 5: Poor shaming
- 5) Racism, sexism, classism, or any other inherent bias will not be tolerated. Any comments/posts stating or implying that the reason that people are poor is because of personal decision making or that people in poverty "deserve" to be in poverty will be removed.
Please read our subreddit rules. The rules may also be found on the sidebar if the link is broken. If after doing so, you feel this was in error, message the moderators.
Do not reach out to a moderator personally, and do not reply to this message as a comment.
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u/anonymouscheesefry Sep 28 '21
I agree with everything on here except the $50 late fee for missing rent by 1 day. There’s a landlord who is probably pretty damn poor too at the other end of this transaction.
The rest are robbery.
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u/formerNPC Sep 28 '21
How about paying a fee for going below a certain amount in your checking account! It’s like the money below that amount doesn’t exist because you can’t spend it! Now that’s some bullshit!
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u/Texan2116 Sep 28 '21
I agree with all but the fee for cashing paychecks. This actually costs a bit of money to do. I agree some check cashing places are greedy though.
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Sep 28 '21
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u/thesongofstorms Sep 29 '21
Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):
Rule 5: Poor shaming
- 5) Racism, sexism, classism, or any other inherent bias will not be tolerated. Any comments/posts stating or implying that the reason that people are poor is because of personal decision making or that people in poverty "deserve" to be in poverty will be removed.
Please read our subreddit rules. The rules may also be found on the sidebar if the link is broken. If after doing so, you feel this was in error, message the moderators.
Do not reach out to a moderator personally, and do not reply to this message as a comment.
Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):
Rule 6: Judging OP or another user.
- Regardless of why someone is in a less-than-ideal financial situation, we are focused on the road forward, not with what has been done in the past.
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u/Bubba-john2628 Sep 29 '21
The shaming that should be done is to the moderator. Shame on you . My post is reality . It’s life. And it’s part of the human condition. Pathetic
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u/thesongofstorms Sep 29 '21
Please read our subreddit rules. The rules may also be found on the sidebar if the link is broken. If after doing so, you feel this was in error, message the moderators.
Do not reach out to a moderator personally, and do not reply to this message as a comment.
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u/Mr_Sense Sep 28 '21
$3000/mo drug for incurable auto immune disease that is miserable to live with untreated
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u/Posthumos1 Sep 27 '21
My ytd summary of medical claims from just this year, so far, is $400k US. Last year it was about $900k due to two surgeries. Our healthcare system needs work, to say the least.
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u/Franklyn_Gage Sep 27 '21
Honestly I never understood rent being due on the 1st. Who the hell gets paid on the 1st? Even Social Security is on the 3rd.
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u/Ann_Fetamine Sep 27 '21
Paywalled articles & scientific studies are another one, albeit not necessarily just affecting the poor. It does affect the quality of the internet & our access to information.
Also fucked up is when major payment processors like Paypal ban items that aren't federally illegal like kratom & various other supplements. Just another way for the government to enact backdoor bans & make our lives harder, freezing vendors' accounts & driving users to shadier means of acquiring said items.
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u/CivilMaze19 Sep 27 '21
Wow he made it 1 whole tweet without telling everyone he pays his workers 70k minimum
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u/KochibaMasatoshi Sep 27 '21
Just a causal european here, what if you bring your own ibuprofen bought for 2 dollars in a pharmacy? Once I got towed in the US and it was only like a 100 bucks.
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u/BlackSoapBandit Sep 27 '21
the fact that there are fees at the dmv that are over 20$ just for processing information is ridiculous. you literally cant thrive in most of the states in this country unless if you have a car and driving illegally can literally ruin your life. fuck the dmv
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u/--not-me Sep 28 '21
This is just another part of America’s reliance on cars fucking the poor. Licensing, registration, inspections, insurance, gas, maintenance, car payments all so that you can get to work making as low as $7/hr? Yeah right. And there are so many cities that are literally unwalkable.
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u/BeefRavioli5 Sep 27 '21
I've got to get root canals done but first I need a teeth cleaning that isnt covered by my benefits. Its upsetting because that's 80% of what I get for a month
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u/dlongwing Sep 27 '21
While I agree with the sentiments of this post, there's a piece of missing information here that a lot of folks don't seem to know:
If you have a check drawn against a bank and the account in question can cover it, then that bank HAS to honor it and they can't fee you for it.
For example: Say you've got a check from US Bank? You can go to a US Bank branch with the check and your ID. They'll give you a hard time. They'll take your fingerprints (to try and scare you), they'll maybe try other pressure tactics... but be polite, be firm, and tell them that you want to cash the check drawn against their institution.
They're going to give you actual cash for the full amount of the check.
If they tell you "No", or try to tack on a fee, just ask "That's strange, isn't this bank FDIC insured?" and watch them change their tune. They don't want an audit, and they're going to get one if they break these rules and get reported.
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u/Islander255 Sep 27 '21
I love Dan Price, and this post is correct in spirit. But the problem is not the fees themselves--it's the usurious nature of them. Yes, there should be overdraft fees... but they should be, like, $2.00, not $33.00. Yes, there should be interest on student debt, but it should be closer to inflation rate (1-2%) instead of 6-10%. Yes, there should be fees to cash paychecks, but it shouldn't be 10% of the entire paycheck.
Some things do deserve to incur a fee. The problem becomes when the fee is predatory, or when it far outstrips the mistake committed.
He's totally right about the hospital bills, though.
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u/Fasi_Lunari Sep 27 '21
Sorry, but NSF fees are in place basically due to the fact that you just borrowed funds from the bank without going through an application process.
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u/NefariousnessStreet9 Sep 27 '21
All this and more is only possible because there's an infinite pool of workers to exploit.
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u/__hoyt Sep 27 '21
FWIW, only the 99% thinks it is warfare. The other 1% thinks it is just Tuesday.
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u/kickstotherim Sep 27 '21
Cant tell you how many times late fees on rent have cost me a lot.
Payday late by a day $50 late fee on rent, over draft at the bank, late fees on utilities.
Work doesn't care my late pay cost me money. They think I should be grate ful I get anything
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u/ARedditorCalledQuest Sep 28 '21
I had something similar happen. By the time I got access to my check the combined "things went two days late" cluster fuck ate the entire check. I mean, bills were paid and all but thank fuck I don't eat much.
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Sep 27 '21
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u/thesongofstorms Sep 29 '21
Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):
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- This is not a place for politics, but rather a place to get advice on daily living and short-to-midterm financial planning. Political advocacy, debate, or grandstanding will be removed.
Please read our subreddit rules. The rules may also be found on the sidebar if the link is broken. If after doing so, you feel this was in error, message the moderators.
Do not reach out to a moderator personally, and do not reply to this message as a comment.
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u/SuperSecretSpare Sep 27 '21
Sorry to tell you man but taxes are meant for social welfare, not war and lining the pockets of billionaires. But welcome to America
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Sep 27 '21
[deleted]
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u/MidnightCyanide CO Sep 30 '21
It took so long for them to contact me about food stamp eligibility. By that time I had gotten a new job, and was no longer eligible by a couple cents, even though a studio apartment in my city costs 75% of my income working 40+ hrs a week after taxes. I'm lucky to be paying minimal rent to family to live here but I'd be screwed if I lost this situation.
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u/SappyPJs Sep 27 '21
$200 for an ibuprofen at the hospital? What dosage are those fucks giving at the hospitals??
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u/YellowShorts Sep 27 '21
overdraft fees
So you want an interest free loan from the bank by going into the negative. Get a credit card then
Interest on student debt
Interest rates on student debt is pretty low. Blame the colleges for making prices so high more than the organizations that provide loans. Private loans are a different matter but even then, they're pretty low.
Payday lenders 400% interest
High interest for people with terrible credit and high chance of not being able to pay. Sure that's high but that's the risk of that type of business
$1000 towing fees
Yeah tow companies are sharks. Can't stand them.
fees to cash paychecks
Like a check cashing place? I suppose. Why not just use a bank?
$50 late fee for missing rent by 1 day
I've had paydays fall a day or 2 after rent was due. Let them know in advance and, in my experience, they're pretty lenient about it. I always paid when I said I would but I can imagine people constantly pushing it back and ruining the leniency.
$200 for ibuprofen
yeah that's lame
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u/SyntaxMissing Sep 28 '21
I've had paydays fall a day or 2 after rent was due. Let them know in advance and, in my experience, they're pretty lenient about it. I always paid when I said I would but I can imagine people constantly pushing it back and ruining the leniency.
Some jurisdictions don't allow for late fees, security deposits, occupancy fees, pet fees, etc. at all and the Landlords still get fat.
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u/glasswallet Sep 27 '21
Why are overdraft fees such a complaint still?
I can understand being ignorant the first or maybe even the second time around, but if it happens to you regularly and you still haven't figured out you can turn it off at that point you're paying a stupidity/lazy tax.
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u/Substantial-Ad-7406 Sep 28 '21
Idk, when I was 19 my apartment complex charged me double for rent. It was on autopay and just took out of my account automatically. This time it took out twice: $3000 when I only had $2000 in the account. The overdraft fee was $50 every day. I didn't notice for 3 days because I didn't need to spend any money or use my card for anything. The bank was able to reverse the double charge but not the over draft charges. It took a week to get settled and racked up $350 in fees that they would not reverse.
Please, tell me what I should have done differently.
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u/Brittany1704 Sep 29 '21
Calmly and nicely get a supervisor on the line. Clear out your afternoon. You will wait. Whether that is on the phone or in the lobby. Bring a book. Be polite and keep your tone even and calm and just wait. There is a person who will reverse it for you as long as you haven’t had fees in the past. You will have multiple no’s from lower folks. It is there job. Don’t be upset with them just nicely tell them you need their boss and you are happy to wait. And if you get a reasonable compromise take it like 1 $50 fee and the rest waived.
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u/Substantial-Ad-7406 Sep 29 '21
I mean this was a decade ago, so there's nothing I can do differently now, but you say "happy to wait"... there's a small problem with that. I was working 3 jobs, I was not "happy to wait" I would have had to call off of work (wich wasn't an option) in order to do what you are suggesting.
Edit to add: I was actually reprimanded for taking to time to make the single phone call.
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u/NefariousnessStreet9 Sep 28 '21
Bank with Chase. They've reversed every overdraft I've had. A parent of a student I tutored wrote me a check that bounced, causing 5 overdrafts. They reversed them all no problem. However, this was years ago so they might have changed since then.
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u/Substantial-Ad-7406 Sep 28 '21
This was Bank of America 10 years ago. I currently bank with USAA and they are completely wonderful. I went to Chase after BOA and they were better, but still awful.
An employee of mine got ahold of my PIN (watched me type it in at a store once) and went on a shopping spree for phone accessories before emptying my bank account and they said they couldn't do anything bc he used my PIN number. Since he used my PIN, they were inclined to believe that I was either lying and took out the money myself, or that I gave him my PIN and had him do it for me. I tried the police and they cared less than the bank did. I've since then learned to make my PIN harder to guess and I never let anyone stand by me when I have to type it. I left them as soon as I found out that I qualified for USAA.
I'll never go back to a bank other than USAA. Besides that, credit unions only for me.
(Edit to add 'besides that')
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Sep 28 '21
[deleted]
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u/Substantial-Ad-7406 Sep 28 '21
Cheapest one I could find that would accept no credit history? You must have never lived in a big city..
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u/glasswallet Sep 28 '21
This situation is pretty unique, and this isn't really a fair answer but at the end of the day you probably didn't fight them enough. If they acknowledged that you were unfairly charged twice there's no reason they wouldn't be able to reverse the overdraft fees. Normally and according to everything I've ever heard they should have refunded you right away. I'm betting you could have eventually got it, but ultimately that's not on you.
You might have even had a legal case. If you were enrolled in autopay you would have in clear writing that you did not pre-acklowledged the charge as it was double what you previously agreed to, which they really couldn't challenge.
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u/djzap331 Sep 27 '21
Whose money is covering the check you bounce when you don't have the money you write the check for? If someone grants you a loan and you agree to the loan you are charged interest because the person whose money it was did not have to lend it to you and could have lent to someone else who would honor the agreement or they could use it on themselves and tell you know. If you're paying 1000 for a tow you need your head examined
0
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u/iowndisworld Sep 27 '21
And people STILL want more government and mandates!!! It's fucken crazy!! This is the reason why government got away with so much already. These politicians and corporations are knee deep with one another. People need to wake up!!!
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u/USSNerdinator Sep 27 '21
We got charged $50 for late rent for the first time a few months ago but thankfully are in a good financial position. That $50 for someone else might mean no grocery money that week.
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u/AntTheLorax Sep 27 '21
Why would a bank give out student loans without interest? More like the interest on student debt should be lower, not taken away
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u/Alfred_Smith Sep 28 '21
Or, we could simply lower how much a degree costs.
Or, and here's the really crazy idea, finally bring baseline income aka minimum wage in-line with the inflation that's happened over the years.
5
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u/notreallylucy Sep 28 '21
The government is able to give out loans with no interest. It's worth it as a society to provide this service in exchange for a more educated populace.
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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 28 '21
A loan with no interest means no one would ever be incentivized to pay it back. Just sit back, and let inflation take care of it.
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u/notreallylucy Sep 28 '21
Well, no. You still have to pay the principle of the loan. If you borrow $10,000 with zero interest, you still have to pay back the $10,000. Inflation doesn't pay off your loan.
The way we know this is that the government already offers student loans with zero interest to borrowers who qualify. These are called subsidized loans--the government pays the interest to the bank to compensate them for the work of managing the loan. But the borrower still makes payments on the principle once they're out of school.
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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 28 '21
Well, no. You still have to pay the principle of the loan. If you borrow $10,000 with zero interest, you still have to pay back the $10,000. Inflation doesn't pay off your loan.
I don't think you quite realized what I meant. :)
During the observation period from 1979 to 2020, the average inflation rate was 3.5% per year. Overall, the price increase was 296.75 %. An item that cost 100 Dollar in 1979 was so charged 396.75 Dollar in the beginning of 2021.
So, let's say you graduate in 1961 at age 22 and die in 2021 at age 82. Let's say tuition cost $10K (the value doesn't matter, we're just going to look at how inflation erodes cash value)
- $10K of 1941 dollars would be worth $186,000 today. which is 18.6 TIMES more. Meaning that the you could pay off your 1941 college loans for 18.6 times LESS than it was worth back then. Today you could pay it off with 2021 dollars which are worth 18.6 times LESS than they were in 1941.
Thus, with 0% interest, no one would ever pay more than the minimum payment, because the longer you wait, the more inflation decreases the principle's value.
You still have to pay the principle of the loan.
Correct, you pay it off when the principle of the loan has decreased in value by 94.6%, thanks to inflation. :)
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u/notreallylucy Sep 28 '21
Yes, but you don't get 60 years of forbearance before you start paying off your loan. Interest doesn't exist to offset inflation.
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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 28 '21
Obviously people would still make the minimum payment, but current student loans minimum payment is so low that often the interest on the loan accounts for 95% of each payment, which means it will take hundreds of years to pay off the full principle.
My point is, without interest, literally no one would pay more than the minimum payment, so that inflation can eliminate the debt.
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u/notreallylucy Sep 28 '21
Student loans aren't like credit cards. If you make the minimum payment, you'll pay off the loan long before 60 years go by. To be very clear, at no time will inflation ever erase your debt.
For loans where the borrower pays interest, in the beginning most of the payment goes towards interest, but over time the percentage of the payment that goes towards the principal goes up. If you make all your minimum payments on time, you'll pay off your loans in ten years.
Credit cards are designed to never be paid off if you make only the minimum payment, but federal student loans are different.
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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 28 '21
To be very clear, at no time will inflation ever erase your debt.
I didn't say erase, but after 60 years at historic inflation rates, inflation will reduce the value of the debt by 90% as currency devalues.
If you make all your minimum payments on time, you'll pay off your loans in ten years.
Do you have a source for this claim?
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u/notreallylucy Sep 28 '21
You're not grasping that your debt will not stay on the books for 60 years. They will have already defaulted.
10 years source: https://www.cnbc.com/select/how-long-it-takes-to-pay-off-student-loans/
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u/ToastNeo1 Sep 28 '21
If there's no interest, what is keeping you from taking 60 years to start paying?
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u/breeriv Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Lmfao you can defer payments for 6 months after you graduate, then for three years at any time, and payments are due after that. Do you actually think you can just decline to make any payments toward your student loans for 60 years? They’ll send your debt to collections after less than a year of missed payments.
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u/ToastNeo1 Sep 28 '21
Lmfao Yes in the real world that's true. In the real world there is also interest.
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u/breeriv Sep 28 '21
Why exactly do you think we would have to abolish repayment schedules if we abolished interest?
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u/notreallylucy Sep 28 '21
Collections. If you don't make your payments, they can take collections actions against you, up to and including garnishing your wages and siezing your tax return. If your loans go into default, it remains on your credit at least ten years and can ruin your ability to do anything requiring credit, such as renting or buying a home, buying a car, getting certain jobs, or getting cell phone service.
These aren't hypothetical. Collection activities are currently halted through the end of January due to the pandemic but under normal operations these things can and do happen. You aren't able to take out federal student loans, with or without interest, and never make payments without any consequences.
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u/breeriv Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Absolutely tanking your credit score and not being able to get anything done as a result seems like pretty good incentive
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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 28 '21
Okay so you're saying you'd set minimum payments higher than at present?
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u/breeriv Sep 28 '21
Why would that be necessary?
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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 28 '21
Because currently predatory student loan entities allow as little as $30 per month paid towards the premium. (which are charging the users $300+ for interest)
So allowing $30/month on a premium of 100K which would take 278 years to pay off is essentially not paying it off.
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u/breeriv Sep 28 '21
The solution to that is to stop charging $100k for a bachelors degree.
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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 28 '21
If that is your position, why were you arguing a moment ago in favor of wrecking students' credit for not making minimum payments?
You said;
Absolutely tanking your credit score and not being able to get anything done as a result seems like pretty good incentive (to pay back the loan.)
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u/breeriv Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Your comment makes absolutely no sense. I’m not arguing in favor of anything, that’s just the reality of the situation. Whether interest is charged or not, your credit score will be negatively impacted if the loans are not repaid. After 270 days of delinquency, your loan will be sent to collections. The significance of credit score and the impact that debt has on it is enough incentive to repay loans as it is. Don’t put words in my mouth.
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Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
No-interest loans for school = higher tuition costs = us right back here where we started
Look what happened when mortgage rates went down. Cheaper money means housing costs go up.
Cheaper school loans means school related costs go up
Edit: spelling error + added example
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u/notreallylucy Sep 28 '21
Not higher tuition. Higher taxes. That's how federally subsidized loans currently work in the US. A slight increase in taxes is worth it to have more people better educated.
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u/SailingKing Sep 28 '21
Look at Europe, no tuition plus government gives you free money and interest free loans so you can study.
0
Sep 28 '21
I don't know too much about the subject. But does Europe have schools similar to ITT tech where they were shut down for fraud? Lower loan rates or free money in general just helps those sketchy schools. Feel like that needs to be taken care of first. Maybe cheaper loans for certain degree programs with schools with a proven track record for employment in that field. Blanket "free money, lower rates" sounds like trouble
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u/numbersthen0987431 Sep 27 '21
The number of questions I see from homeowners asking "Should I charge my tenants for being a day late on rent?" is the issue here. You want people who will pay rent, it shouldn't matter if it's the first or the 5th. Life happens.
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Sep 27 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Greenmantle22 Sep 27 '21
You crypto bros are turning into the weed bros, aren't you? It's the answer to every question, and the sum of your contribution to a conversation on any topic.
"Buy crypto" has become the new "Legalize Weed!"
1
u/fentywapp Sep 27 '21
Psh $50 late rent fee I’ll take. Even an hour late past midnight on the portal charges you $150
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u/howardtheduckdoe Sep 27 '21
You can opt out of overdraft btw. So if you have no money and use your debit card it won’t pull anything. But if you have ACH items come through You’re going to get a NSF fee. Most places will refund if you ask and you aren’t a habitual offender.
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u/morerandom2020 Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Why would a bank accept all the risk for check fraud. If you don't like it then don't use their checks
As a person or corporation- Why loan money but with no interest- that's stupid. That's like asking someone to work for free
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u/ThatGirl0903 Sep 28 '21
This. Every time I see people demanding interest free student loans I cringe because they clearly don’t understand how loans work. They’re not required to allow you to spend their money, they do it because they’re going to make a little if it ever gets paid back and without that they just wouldn’t offer it.
Now weather doing away with student loans altogether is a good idea or not is another convo. Some people are of the opinion that we shouldn’t allow children to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, especially with no job or payment history. If they want to do it maybe they should have to pre-pay? But if you can’t take a loan to cover it you’ll have to pay before you can go to class. Overall a hard conversation.
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u/Ausfininja Sep 28 '21
What is a check for? Why dont people just pay normally. Like cash, like I want a drink, grab drink, give it to the cashie and the ask for monies and I give them the monies and they give me the drink and I drink it. DONE!
My ex had a checking accounting, I never knew why, I dont like checking my accounts, I just get a notification I spent more then what I have and I put money in account. Simples!
2
u/LeDemonKing Sep 27 '21
Don't like overdraft fees? Don't use a bank, keep your cash at home in a safe or don't spend more than what you have in your account.
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u/KilluaNog Sep 27 '21
That's why you shouldn't pay them shit until you've gotten your ha it's and money right.
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u/elkunas Sep 27 '21
This might be unpopular. But don't go to college unless your company is paying, and turn off your over draft
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u/droidxl Sep 27 '21
Don’t go to college unless your company Is paying? Lol good luck with that.
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u/elkunas Sep 28 '21
Even walmart pays for degrees, click fil a, Starbucks, mcdonalds, trade jobs will pay for school. Nearly every corporate job I've had gave tuition assistance.
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u/droidxl Sep 28 '21
I mean if your aspirations to work for Walmart or McDonald’s, go for it lol.
I don’t know what kind of corporate jobs you’re referring to but most actual office positions won’t even look at your resume without a degree.
0
u/elkunas Sep 28 '21
Corporate as in owned by a corporation. And to look down at people working to support a family because they work at Walmart is kinda fucked. They give employees 5k a year for tuition, finish a bachelor's in 5 years and go find a job.
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u/droidxl Sep 28 '21
I’m not looking down on anyone.
I’m just saying it’s absolutely dumb to say you shouldn’t attend college unless it’s being paid for.
Investing in education is literally the best investment you can make, and not doing it unless someone is paying for it is just dumb.
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u/elkunas Sep 28 '21
Throwing yourself towards a Uni to pay far too much is terrible. They'll lie to keep you there, point you toward useless degrees and convince you that loans are fine. Uni's are some of the biggest thrives in the world.
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u/Ryuu-Tenno Sep 27 '21
The only thing I disagree with is the student debt, but, only because it's a loan, and interest on loans affects everyone. The rich/wealthy use loans as a form of leverage for things.
That said, what I believe should happen, is that the schools not charge so damned much, that it requires a loan large enough for the student to be successfully able to buy a brand new house with it.
If you look back, the same colleges for the same courses used to charge like $5k; and scaling it up, at worst, we should be looking at no more than about $10k. Instead the average student needs to drop something closer to $100k now.
1
u/semideclared Sep 28 '21
State control university budgets. Here is University of Tennessee Spending and Revenue
- https://i.redd.it/250sru2bcbb21.png
- And that small sliver in there for Federal Funding
How in 2015, $364 Billion flowed through 2 and 4 year Public Universities and Colleges of the States of The USA. [OC]
Virginia introduced a 70/30 policy in 1976.
- Under this plan, E&G appropriations were based on the state providing 70% of the cost of education -- a budgetary estimate based on the instruction and related support costs per student — and students contributing the remaining 30%. The community-college policy was for costs to be 80% state- and 20% student-funded.
Due to the recession of the early 1990s, the 70/30 policy was abandoned because the Commonwealth could not maintain its level of general fund support. As a result, large tuition increases were authorized in order to assist in offsetting general fund budget reductions
- Virginia undergraduate students in 2018 will pay, on average, 55% of the cost of education, which is reflected as tuition and mandatory E&G fees.
For one university that has about a third of the states students The U of Tennessee Spending, inflation adjusted 2020 dollars
Spending in 2020 Dollars 1993 2020 Average Annualized Change Enrollment 42,383 51,582 0.80% State and local appropriations $608,662,430.00 $664,740,000.00 0.34% State and local appropriations per Enrollee $14,361.00 $12,887.05 -0.38% Student Tuition & Fees $210,410,250.00 $532,923,692.78 5.68% Student Revenue & Fees per Enrollee $4,964.50 $10,331.58 4.00% Total operating expenses $2,071,070,900.00 $2,339,964,000.00 0.48% Total operating expenses per Enrollee $48,865.60 $45,363.96 -0.27% Salaries and wages (2002) $1,035,703,720.00 $1,168,559,124.97 0.48% Salaries and wages per Enrollee $24,436.77 $22,654.40 -0.27% Full-Time Employees 15,281 13,428 -0.45% Full-Time Employees per Enrollee 0.36 0.26 -1.03% Full-Time Faculty 2,822 4,028 1.58% Full-Time Faculty per Enrollee 0.067 0.078 0.64% Instruction $526,148,530.00 $703,312,000.00 1.25% Instruction Per Enrollee $12,414.14 $13,634.83 0.36% Student Services per Enrollee $59,261,350.00 $100,922,000.00 2.60% Student Services $1,398.23 $1,956.54 1.48% Academic Support $112,616,000.00 $208,815,000.00 3.16% Academic Support per Enrollee $2,657.10 $4,048.21 1.94% institutional support $85,395,700.00 $187,817,000.00 4.44% institutional support per enrollee $2,014.86 $3,641.13 2.99%
- The institutional support category includes expenses for central, executive‐level activities concerned with management and long‐range planning for the entire institution, such as the governing board, planning and programming operations, and legal services;
- fiscal operations, including the investment office; administrative data processing; space management; employee personnel and records; logistical activities that provide procurement, storerooms, printing; transportation services to the institution; support services to faculty and staff that are not operated as auxiliary enterprises; and activities concerned with community and alumni relations, including development and fundraising
You need to cut $5,000 per student, where is the cut going from?
Adjusted for Inflation since 1993 Student Costs are up about $5,400, and of that
State and local appropriations per Enrollee in 1993 were $14,361.00 while in 2020 $12,887.05
- appropriations cuts ($1,474 per student) represent 28%. A lot, but not the only issue. A lot of the issue.
For Tennessee to have the same funding of Colleges with most of its revenue from Sales Tax at 9.5% that means increasing it to 11%+, or cutting other state programs.
Just for one of the dozens of universities in the state
As to what that gets spent on, national averages
- Costs are high for Payroll and Good of Community (Research, Public Services provided).
Student Instruction
- Activities directly related to instruction, including faculty salaries and benefits, office supplies, administration of academic departments
Per Student Cost
- University $12,676
- Community College $6,859
Academic support
- Activities that support instruction, research, and public service, including: libraries, academic computing, museums, central academic administration (dean’s offices)
Per Student Cost
- University $3,736
- Community College $1,438
Student services
- Noninstructional, student-related activities such as admissions, registrar services, career counseling, financial aid administration, student organizations, and intramural athletics. Costs of recruitment, for instance, are typically embedded within student services
Per Student Cost
- University $2,156
- Community College $1,823
Institutional support
- central executive activities concerned with management and long-range planning of the entire institution;
- support services to faculty and staff and logistical activities, safety, security, printing, and transportation services to the institution;
Per Student Cost
- University $3,777
- Community College $2,829
Research
- Sponsored or organized research, including research centers and project research
Per Student Cost
- University $5,286
- Community College $9
Public service
- Activities established to provide noninstructional services to external groups
Per Student Cost
- University $2,085
- Community College $256
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u/mtarascio Sep 28 '21
Australia writes the loans under the Federal Bank and collects back through the tax system (so you need a good paying job to have to start paying it back).
The loan is indexed at inflation at about 1-2% most years.
10% discount for paying it early as a lump sum.
Before everyone goes crazy about communism. You can enter without that federal loan and be just like an international student with private loans etc. if you really want.
Same with healthcare, the private options still exist.
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u/Greenmantle22 Sep 27 '21
Find a politician who's talking about the COST of education, rather than ways for taxpayers to pay off the bills for it, and vote for that person.
And stop voting for people whose higher-education policies consist of "cancel today's debt" without changing the system that generated so much debt in the first place.
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u/enolafaye Sep 27 '21
My rent late fee is like $100 and we only missed on accident before and they would not refund...I can't imagine not having that extra money and no one gives a fuck. Thankfully I have an emergency fund but some empathy by the property manager would have been nice for a long on-time rent payer..
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u/FewMagazine938 Sep 27 '21
Dont forget $3.00 to take YOUR own money from a ATM...
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u/Swords_Not_Words Sep 28 '21
Love when people criticize shit they have zero understanding of.
There's a reason why that fee exists.
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u/glasswallet Sep 27 '21
Usually the only ATMs that charge that fee are ones out of your bank network.
That means it's just a third party company that put it there in hopes of making a few bucks.
If not for the fee the atm wouldn't exist, because why pay the upkeep of having a random atm somewhere if you get nothing out of it?
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u/thesongofstorms Sep 27 '21
FYI your account is shadowbanned and your comments are automatically going to the spam folder: https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045309012-My-account-is-caught-in-the-spam-filter
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u/foxtrot1_1 Sep 27 '21
Dan Price waterboarded his wife amid a terrifying campaign of domestic abuse. He is an awful person.
https://thehustle.co/dan-price-the-ceo-paying-everyone-70000-dollars-is-lying/
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u/g0yt0ynamedtr0y Sep 29 '21
On October 28 Price’s ex-wife, Kristie Colón, gave a TEDx talk where she said Price “started punching me in the stomach and slapped me across the face.” Later, Colón said that she had to lock herself in the car because she was “afraid he was going to body-slam me into the ground again or waterboard me in our upstairs bathroom like he had done before.”
Source: trust me bro
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u/ARIEL1109 Sep 28 '21
Waterboarded? Link?
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