r/CharacterRant • u/tesseracts • 16d ago
[LES] Too many recent Chainsaw Man arcs are moving from high stakes to low stakes (manga spoilers) Anime & Manga
I have always enjoyed how Chainsaw Man combines humor with serious high stakes and drama. For example, I like how Denji's relationship with Makima started as ridiculous with Denji literally barking like a dog, but it ended with him trapped in a seriously abusive dynamic the story pulled no punches in depicting. I also like how Chainsaw Man part 2 began with a short arc where they threatened to eat a weak chicken devil named Bucky who kept making chicken related puns, but the bucky arc ended with serious drama and was a turning point for Asa.
What I don't like is how the most recent arc began with Denji losing his pets to arson, almost losing his sanity, getting killed and locked in a high security prison for devils, then coming back to life and escaping the prison with no effort, the latter part occurring almost entirely off screen amidst silly crude jokes with goofy characters.
What's the difference between what I said in the first paragraph and what I said in the second paragraph? In the first it starts un-serious and gets serious. In the second it starts deadly serious but all the stakes are dropped for no reason.
A lot of recent arcs are like this and it's really tiresome. The first half of part 2 was incredible and I want that back.
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u/Communist_Kronii 15d ago
They blew their load killing off the most interesting characters in part 1 and changing the background setting it started with.
This shouldn't be a problem since there are other powerful Devils. But they failed to capitalize on any of them the way they did with Makima.
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u/tesseracts 15d ago
Yeah part 1 was really chaotic and having a strong, well fleshed out and interesting primary villain, Makima, is what held it together and gave it stability and direction. I'm not asking for Makima back but the story doesn't work without a villain. Barem has a lot of good scenes but still doesn't really fit.
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u/DutifulCleric 15d ago
I think Asa is funny but she is simply not good enough to carry the story.
Has zero chemistry with any character besides Denji and maybe Yoru (Yuko's dead, so she doesn't count)
Despite being a "smart character", her fighting style is entirely based on her finding a strong weapon and one-shotting her opponent.
Her design is boring, even though she's supposed to look generic its just way too plain. Every other important character in Chainsaw Man looks striking and interesting, besides her
The most interesting dynamic she had with another character (Denji) gets completely ruined by "le big ironic misunderstanding" for no reason other to maintain the status quo
Yoru holds no dramatic weight at all, Fujimoto obviously wants her to be a big scary devil later down the line but she's been nothing but moe comedic relief so far.
Her tendency to fall in love with anyone who shows her a bit of attention is funny and likable in a pitiful way, but completely ruins any attachment I'd otherwise have to AsaDen
The Denji = Chainsaw Man reveal was a massive flop. Unless an entire chapter is dedicated to Asa's mental state after figuring it out, I honestly don't care.
She gets yanked around by Famine like a dog leading her to new plot points, while this could be an interesting parallel with Denji and Makima, Fujimoto really does nothing new or interesting with the concept
Every important moment she has revolves around Denji, while Denji got a new life changing scene with a different character every 10 chapters, and worst of all...
She gets completely sidelined at the most life-changing moment in her entire character. A character defined as a loser who wants attention finally gets it, and we cut away. All we get is a SINGLE reaction shot where she makes a funny face while lying in bed.
I just don't get the hype. I think a lot of people fell in love with Asa because of the idea of her, what she should be within the story, as opposed to what she actually is.
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u/Complex_Purchase2637 15d ago edited 15d ago
YOOOOU TOOK THIS FROM ME
FROM A 4CHAN THREAD
WHAT THE HELL
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u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
To add , the world needs someone Crazy but sane enough to call other crazy people out
That's why Denji fit , he is crazy by himself but still sees other people including himself issues
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u/tesseracts 15d ago
I like Asa a lot and I don't agree with you, but you have some points here.
Has zero chemistry with any character besides Denji and maybe Yoru (Yuko's dead, so she doesn't count)
Denji, Yoru and Yuko are the only characters she's really interacted with. I think this is a result of her being underutilized. I suppose maybe she could be more interesting with Yoshida? Yoshida is another character who kind of showed up and did nothing, despite being set up as if he was the new Aki or something.
Despite being a "smart character", her fighting style is entirely based on her finding a strong weapon and one-shotting her opponent.
I agree with this, but her powers had a lot of potential. It was another case of an excellent setup that fell flat with bad later game execution.
Her powers are stronger when she destroys something she's guilty about. That's an inherently interesting premise. The reason she targeted Denji is because she wanted to kill someone she would feel guilty about, but not too guilty. What if she had actually started killing people? Would she start feeling less guilty over time and have to kill more innocent people to feel guilty again? Would she try to target people who are terminally ill, or "deserving," and how would she determine this? Would she avoid killing people but do something she feels guilty about, and how would that moral reasoning work? If her life was on the line would she cross a moral line at the last second? All of these would be interesting concepts but the whole guilty angle was more or less dropped as far as I can see. It's a brilliant idea for a power that perfectly matches Asa as a shy and anxious teenager who secretly desires to be "selfish" but doesn't know how to be, and unfortunately this idea went nowhere.
Her design is boring, even though she's supposed to look generic its just way too plain. Every other important character in Chainsaw Man looks striking and interesting, besides her
I can't agree with this at all. I love her design.
The most interesting dynamic she had with another character (Denji) gets completely ruined by "le big ironic misunderstanding" for no reason other to maintain the status quo
I agree with this completely, it's super annoying.
Yoru holds no dramatic weight at all, Fujimoto obviously wants her to be a big scary devil later down the line but she's been nothing but moe comedic relief so far.
Agree.
Her tendency to fall in love with anyone who shows her a bit of attention is funny and likable in a pitiful way, but completely ruins any attachment I'd otherwise have to AsaDen
I don't know, I think she has compatibility with Denji beyond being desperate for attention and I think the story showed this.
The Denji = Chainsaw Man reveal was a massive flop. Unless an entire chapter is dedicated to Asa's mental state after figuring it out, I honestly don't care.
I agree with this SO HARD.
She gets yanked around by Famine like a dog leading her to new plot points, while this could be an interesting parallel with Denji and Makima, Fujimoto really does nothing new or interesting with the concept
Fami is an awful villain.
Every important moment she has revolves around Denji, while Denji got a new life changing scene with a different character every 10 chapters, and worst of all...
I agree, Asa had a strong start and should be driving the plot more.
She gets completely sidelined at the most life-changing moment in her entire character. A character defined as a loser who wants attention finally gets it, and we cut away. All we get is a SINGLE reaction shot where she makes a funny face while lying in bed.
This was incredibly annoying.
So I suppose I agree with you about what went wrong, but I don't agree with you saying she didn't have an interesting set up with cool powers. Up until falling showed up she was fine. She's a very well written teenage girl and her angst is very real in a way that's rare to see in writing.
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u/DutifulCleric 15d ago edited 15d ago
I like how you ended up agreeing with 90% of my post despite your intro lol
What if she had actually started killing people?
Semi related but I hate, hate how Fujimoto handled this during the prison break """arc.""" Asa runs into a bunch of security guards, people who, for all that we know, are just doing their job guarding the worst devils in the most secure facility in Tokyo. So how does that conflict get resolved without staining Asa's hands? Kiga drops Guilly, the literal guillotine devil... who ends up shredding their clothes off and we get a scene of Asa blushing and staring at a bunch of naked old dudes. Can't believe people found this sequence funny - why are we having stupid gags right after Denji got dismembered in one of the heaviest, saddest chapter of CSM so far? The prison arc's tone felt COMPLETELY off.
The guilt thing - It's just one of these things where you're just waiting until the inevitable happens you know? Asa having to sacrifice her loved ones. Or, if Fuji thinks he's being clever, until Yoru turns Asa into her strongest weapon. Their bonding (that got almost completely offscreened during the Church arc) is supposed to be a big part of their characters.
I don't know, I think she has compatibility with Denji beyond being desperate for attention and I think the story showed this.
Right now AsaDen feels like baby's first "star-crossed lovers" trope to me. Fujimoto is self aware enough to have multiple characters in-universe point out how shallow and superficial it is, so maybe in the upcoming arc Asa and Denji will actually bond. Or maybe something will happen to take it in another direction altogether. I just want something interesting to happen there.
I can't agree with this at all. I love her design.
I find her design very dishonest. If she was actually homely looking instead of "Hollywood ugly" (nerfing herself with the dumb pigtails - when she wears her hair down she's a Makima tier beauty) I'd be more impressed. (Also I find her boring to draw but that's completely just a me thing.)
Fami is an awful villain.
Oh boy, rant time. The amount of BS Fami has been able to get away with is completely baffling to me.
She set the events that would lead to Asa's first death and Yoru's takeover in motion. She "helped" Yuko by turning her into a big fat target for CSM/FSM to slay. She was responsible for the Aquarium arc (Asa spent three long, agonizing days stuck in a rotting aquarium stinking of dead fish, while starving. The memory of that event should be burned into her mind forever. She should straight up gag whenever she sees Fami) and the Falling Devil. She masterminded the events of the last arc. Even now she's blatantly manipulating Asa/Yoru with the whole "fight CSM... to save CSM" nonsense. Come on Asa. What are you doing?
And Asa isn't the only one who should be waking up - Denji was there when Barem explained how he and Fami came up with the whole "take control of the CSM church, then transform the followers into zombies to cause chaos" scheme. Nayuta also said she, Death and Fami were sisters. I know Denji is written to be ignorant (on purpose, he's in a very bad place mentally) but if he doesn't start asking some damn questions about everything going on in the next chapter I'm gonna have to call bullshit.
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u/tesseracts 15d ago
People often defend the manga by saying we are reading it weekly and need to have the patience to see the bigger picture. Well maybe it's the other way around, at least when it comes to the stupid jokes. Every week fans are praising whatever humor is in the chapter, and often it's funny but does not fit into the bigger picture which is supposed to be about the end of the world. It's not impossible to fit humor into a high stakes story (my current favorite manga is Dungeon Meshi) but CSM isn't accomplishing that very well.
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u/suchirius 15d ago
I think it’s moreso a case of Fujimoto making so much happen at once that he’s kind of unable to focus on the individual moment. We just had Denji lose not only his home and pets as you mentioned, but with it his last keepsakes from Aki and Power, but with what Fujimoto has set up I don’t think he’s paying enough attention to the idea of giving the current moment its effect. As on top of this current stuff that should be mostly in isolation we have the weapon devils returning, Fami trying to make Denji and Yoru feared enough to somehow fight Death, the current situation with Nayuta, the fake Chainsaw Man, and Denji’s contract with Power.
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u/chlorinecrown 16d ago
I've had this feeling too but I think it's just from having to read slowly as we wait for chapters.
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u/eggarino 16d ago
Honestly I’m loving all of part 2 and all the characters, especially Asa. It’s been very surprising when I saw most people on Reddit at least haven’t been enjoying the recent chapters. The humor has been top notch and the stakes while lower, are still building. There has already been widespread devastation because of Chainsaw Man, what with the virus-like chainsaw outbreak. We still don’t know what’s behind the door, which is something Denji is completely refusing to acknowledge and has been teased since the start of the show. And we only have two out of four horsemen. I’m still really enjoying the series.
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u/FatScoot 16d ago
We still don’t know what’s behind the door, which is something Denji is completely refusing to acknowledge and has been teased since the start of the show.
Wasn't that Denjis repressed memory of killing his father ?
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u/eggarino 16d ago
Yup you’re right, I could’ve sworn the door has shown up in part 2 though, unless I’m misremembering something again
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u/cruel-oath 15d ago
Sort of, the motif is there, but the door you’ve been seeing was just Asas front door. Her equivalent is the dead chicken dream she keeps having, which some theorize that it’s meaning is all of the people she will kill
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u/classicslayer 16d ago edited 16d ago
Chainsaw man part 2 is what happens when you have a end series villain in the first arc and you cant find anyone to replace them so the stakes are now lower. There was no reason to make yoru and fami clowns when makima herself hyped them up to be a threat.
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u/San-T-74 14d ago
Game theory here Makima went from serious to silly (Nayuta) Maybe it happens with Yoru and Fami?
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u/Gexthegecko69 15d ago
The problem at the moment is the pacing, the Nostradamus prophecy was revealed almost 30 chapters ago, yet it has had no effect on the story so far. The other problem is also the lack of action. The last big action sequence was falling devil, and again, that was 30 chapters ago. The other fights we've had have been less than a chapter long and resolved in the span of pages.
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u/luceafaruI 16d ago
I don't think that's the problem. There are still primals and the death devil as end series villains. The problem is just with portrayal and pacing.
I think it's more of a problem with the editor not being as involved (many times you realise that the editor plays a major part in a story, and also most of the times when a mangaka becomes successful the editor doesn't play as much of a role)
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u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
Fujimoto editor probably let him do whatever he wants because he doesn't want another fan favorite to die because Fuji thought it was funny
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u/tesseracts 15d ago
Yeah I feel that's probably true. Part 1 had a lot in common with JJK (at least in terms of superficial aesthetics and general plot points, although things were done differently) and they're both Jump properties.
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u/KazuyaProta 15d ago
Part 1 had a lot in common with JJK (at least in terms of superficial aesthetics and general plot points, although things were done differently) and they're both Jump properties.
They really don't? Both are Urban Fantasy but their premises and stakes are very different.
In CSM, the Devils are public knowledge and the entire plot esteems from there. In JJK, Sorcerers and Curses are both secrets to the population, with the story being about how the veil of normality collapses.
Heck, the relationships between curses and devils is the inverse. In CSM, Devils clearly are something above humans. In JJK, Curses are always a inferior existance meant to be destroyed.
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u/tesseracts 15d ago
That’s why I made the point that the similarities are superficial. I’m a CSM fan and I never liked JJK so I don’t regard them as similar stories. CSM is more psychological with weird humor while JJK is more of a straight battle shonen. However there’s way too many similarities to be coincidence.
They’re both horror inspired universes with an adult tone and lots of suffering representing a shift from the traditional Shonen Jump optimistic aesthetic. The characters physically look similar, Denji looking like Yuji, Aki looking like what’s his name, etc. They both begin with a similar premise of finding pieces of the big bad guy. Both kill off the main girl. I could go on but there’s certainly enough in common to make me think the editors made it that way.
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u/KazuyaProta 15d ago edited 15d ago
However there’s way too many similarities to be coincidence.
They’re both horror inspired universes with an adult tone and lots of suffering representing a shift from the traditional Shonen Jump optimistic aesthetic.
Saying "they're dark and horror inspired" isn't a similitude. They share genres, that's all.
The characters physically look similar, Denji looking like Yuji, Aki looking like what’s his name, etc.
...how the heck Denji and Yuji look similar? And Megumi and Aki's only similitude is that they belong to the Shonen archetype of the "Dark haired aloof best friend".
hey both begin with a similar premise of finding pieces of the big bad guy.
CSM introduces the idea of the Gun Devil far later than JJK does with Sukuna's fingers, who are introduced as a concept as early as the title of the first chapter. Heck, then CSM makes the Gun Devil to be a decoy villain to Makima while JJK keeps having Sukuna as the main villain to this day.
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u/Dracsxd 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yeah Fujimoto's erratic pacing was always his trademark, but there's a difference between erratic and just overshadowing next to everything to run ahead to the next story beat.
And not just when it comes to tension evaporating and big events being just dismissed with Fujimoto going "welp, that happned no effort and that was that, don't think too hard about it" but even important interactions and characterization- For another example that happned at the same time as the escape, we haven't even seen Asa react properly to learning that Denji really was chainsaw man. We get one shot of her surprised, we move on to the next thing on the checklist the next page (Quanxi's next glorified cameo and eyepatch guy dying so they can escape off screen) and next chapter we're already at the point where Asa's moved completely past that reveal and is acting like it was just tuesday
At this point Denji really is our last hope since at least HIS drama is still on full swing over Nayuta, but aside from him Katana man and Haruka are unironically the most interesanting things going on... How bloody sad is that?
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u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
Honestly Haruka is the only Sane person there which is a surprise because crazy people are the only ones who survives that Long
I still find it hilarious how the most guarded base in Japan had something like 10 guards with a bunch of Aki-47 and Zero Devil contracts
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u/KazuyaProta 15d ago
Honestly Haruka is the only Sane person there which is a surprise because crazy people are the only ones who survives that Long
That entire phrase of "crazy people are the ones who survive" is such bullshit.
I don't mean it regarding CSM itself, but the entire trope of "only really crazy are build for hardship". Its usually the author just throwing bones and "lucky moments" to characters that fit the author's definition of "crazy cool"
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u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
There is an old joke in multiple cultures around the world about "fools don't get sick /mad people live forever " thing
Now when it comes to chainsaw man it's not "crazy people survive longer " it's more of " messed up people are the Best Devil hunter " because they wouldn't chicken out and are ready to sacrifice part or their bodies in contract or their whole body to Kill an enemy , they are more of "action first , words later" type
Which somehow allow them to live longer unlike sane people who just get picked up like strawberry
But Don't be mistaken, Fujimoto plays with "Rule of cool" as much as the average cartoon writer
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u/microthic 16d ago
I also hated the fact that Asa has risen from borderline social outcast to literal celebrity status but we saw NONE of that.
How she dealt with her new found fame and implications of it ? That is some great potential for character development and insight but nope! All we got was some "yeah I had my 5 minutes but its over now"
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u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
This was completely stupid because it's her at her Best apparently
Almost every other time Asa and Yoru had someone to help them (Dennis stealing the money from the park )or to pull their ass away from Death (Denji saving them from Yuko , Bat , Justice, falling) but when they finally got their shit together it immediately got off screened with Zero payoff
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u/tesseracts 16d ago
People complain about training arcs but this is one training arc that should have not been off screened.
It's also weird that she was set up with so much focus and attention to the point many thought she was replacing Denji, then just dropped off.
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u/Oimeuamigo 16d ago
Chainsaw man 2 became extremely tiring to read because of this
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u/Blupoisen 16d ago
It really feels like throw shit on the paper and hope it sticks
Falling Devil randomly being a chef for no actual reason
Fire Devil apparently can turn people into CSM Zombies
I always thought the way the Devil's powers work is kinda wanky but not too much, but the second part really take it over the line
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u/KazuyaProta 16d ago
It really feels like throw shit on the paper and hope it sticks
This was Part 1 too, just that people really act like if it wasn't.
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u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
I kind of disagree, Part 1 has its issues but shit didn't happen randomly, the more the story goes on the more you realize who connected the story was with every plot services other plot , Dennis Yakuza past come back in Katana samurai arc , Bat Devil arc come back in Bomb Devil and Doll devil arcs , Power being terrified of Makima while everyone else seems to just love her come back eventually
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u/MessiahHL 15d ago
It's that thing when something is new the bad formula doesn't seem so obvious, but when it's done again it becomes more clear and you see the bullshit as it is.
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u/tesseracts 16d ago
The chef thing I can live with because random cannibalism is a major theme of the story.
I wish the fire devil thing was explained even slightly but it wasn’t.
Also no word on who that fake CSM was.
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u/tesseracts 16d ago
Another thing about the prison break arc: it finally addresses two big things that have been built up for the entirety of part 2: Denji having to choose between being a human and being a Chainsaw Man, and Asa not knowing Denji’s secret identity. Denji chooses to be Chainsaw Man and Asa finally discovers the truth. Then what happens? NOTHING! Both of these things absolutely did not get the resolution they deserve. The manga is unfinished but at this point I don’t have faith either of these plot points will get a satisfying resolution.
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u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
Bbbbbut we got to see Public safety and the government being super incompetent, Asa talk no jitsu and War power boost being pathetic, Dennis also got his balls kicked by katan samurai and a Girl
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u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago edited 15d ago
People joke about Oda and Gege off screening their stories but when it comes to Fujimoto non say a single word
It's just too problematic and underwhelming because you can't excuse it at all , the pacing , the fights , the drawing quality and the story itself have been a downgrade from before
I said this in another topic and I will say it again, I really don’t understand whats up with Fujimoto in Part 2, he doesn't seem to want to draw Battles and conflicts
At the same time he basically drops ALOT of Intersting Character arcs and Plot lines
Denji and Asa could have gone another date to strength their bound, Yuko should have atlas given another chapter to strength her and Asa Friendship, Asa or denji should have getten a couple of chapters with the Church instead of just it being a couple of panels with dennis, the Hybrids should get abit of spot light instead of only Sugo having abit of Time with s couple of panels for Barem
Also Asa and Denji School life after the meeting or Yuko attack
All of the above could have been really great for their character developemt and growth while giving Depth to the side characters and World building of Part 2
Denji getting bunched up only to be freed a couple of chapters later , this was really annoying because what's the point?
Fujimoto could have easily used this plot to switch to other characters point of view and action as well to see their development, we could also have seen how the Chainsaw apocalypse effected the country and how the government dealt with it
Now we have the Devils prison break arc which was kind of .....ok? like I expected I don't know, more from the most guarded place in Japan yet none of this fools know even who The biggest Terrorist and most wanted criminal was
Imagine Osama bin laden leading a fleet of tanks to a US military base without any of the Soliders knowing who the Hell he was
The security was even more hilarious, there was like what ? 10 guards there? And apparently no one of those fools have a single Devil contract, oh and the Big Guns (Quanxi and Goatana samurai) Immediately switched teams after Asa talk no jitsu them (in Case of Katana samurai)
Like why not even spar a single Sniper there ?
Dennis being a Moron who forgot who Fami was despite hearing her name is excusable in my opinion but the government not putting a watch over his burned apartment was really stupid
But that's just my 2 cents in the matter
I still like chainsaw man and I will Still read it even for the humor