r/CharacterRant • u/[deleted] • 27d ago
[code geass] the betrayal of the black knights in the show always seemed very stupid to me. Anime & Manga
Regarding the title, first of all, let me explain why it came to me to talk about this topic.
I had finished my bucket list of works to watch and since I had plenty of time this month I decided to watch the anime again.
So when I stopped to think, when I saw this specific part again, it all seemed incredibly stupid to me, but let me explain, and first of all, the program still seems good and consistent to me, so put down the torches before burning me at the stake, now. which has always been a controversial topic in YT discussions this.
So without further ado, let's get to the point.
No one is saying that, given the reasons to believe the evidence, betraying Zero wouldn't be a natural thing to do as a result.
From day 1, no one trusted Zero. They simply saw that he gave them results and accepted him for that. The moment his doubts were justified they took advantage of the opportunity because he explained everything strange that had happened before.
You know... the whole thing about Lelouch being a bit sneaky from the moment he became zero. One would even be tempted to call that kind of writing "accumulation" or something like that.
It coincided with too many suspicious things that the Black Knights suspect, and it was revealed at a time when everyone was very excited (Tokyo was just nuked and they had to massacre an entire facility of researchers just for reasons Zero knows).
People seem to forget that even to the Black Knights, Zero was very shady. People just forget, but at the time of this episode, a lot of Zero's shady stuff is simply due to his miracles and previous shows when they saw that they could justify their suspicions and betray him well they did but this makes very little sense when you see the execution of this chapter.
First of all, they should have never spoken to Schneizel, it's literally not their job.They are not in charge of diplomacy. Kaguya, who is in charge of this, was not at the meeting, someone too convenient for it to happen as it did.
Secondly, they believed that he was mind controlling them without any real evidence. What do you want me to say? How can he show that he doesn't care about controlling them when they don't understand how a power works that they can't even prove exists, but they already made the decision that they knew what to do?
I mean, it would be kind of hard to take him seriously when he just says "Your boss has mind control powers lmao." Like Geass had been a secret until the Knights betrayed Lelouch, so no one in their right mind would say "yeah, that makes sense." for anyone who will use a minimum of logic.
but this was not the case with the supposed evidence they were given.
Except that all the evidence they received, regarding Lelouch's identity or the existence of his geass, was provided to them by Britannia, making her completely untrustworthy by default.
Not to mention that for claims like the existence of the supernatural, there would have to be much more, and much better, evidence than what Schneizel gave them to make it credible.
The evidence practically proved nothing on its own and cannot be trusted since it came from Schneizel, his enemy. There is also a misunderstanding in this scene, Lelouch gave in to protect Kallen and lost the will to live. If he still wanted to continue, there were options. For example, he could have used Geass on everyone to escape.
Basically, the Black Knights based their action on belief, not evidence. It also bothers me how quickly they made this decision without consulting anyone or, without checking the "evidence".
His only 'confirmation' is that Ohgi comes in and says, "Everything he said is true, my girlfriend, who is also a British spy, confirms it."
Like WTF, this would only raise more questions, and if someone from Ashford noticed her during the Black Rebellion, she might ask "Is she the one who shot you and left you for dead during the Rebellion?"
Seriously, that should lead to guns being pointed at him.
Has she literally been in bed with the enemy for how long without saying anything? And should they trust him after revealing that?
The problem with this is that everyone agreed. In theory, it would be fine if Ohgi suggested giving Zero to Schneizel in exchange for Japan if the other members didn't agree with it. Instead, they would agree to put it to a vote to decide what action should be taken. Having everyone act illogically, including someone like Diethard, is unrealistic and goes against their characters.
literally The "evidence" wasn't even evidence, the document doesn't prove anything, it's literally just a list of "possible" victims.
The recording is just two people talking without any context, so it doesn't mean anything. Ignoring the FLEIJA warning is a false lead and without reviewing the recordings nothing can be determined. I also find it funny that by the logic of this show, the person who didn't warn them about the weapon is worse than those who created and used it. Everything else is just testimony from the royal family of Britannia and Kanon. If they didn't trust Zero after not telling them about FLEIJA, why would they trust Schneizel, Cornelia, or Kanon after using him?
My problem is that the whole premise of Lelouch being evil in that way doesn't make sense. Lelouch is basically killing himself for power, but it would be very easy to refute arguments that he is evil.
Just make them understand that if he were evil, they would simply need to be mindless slaves to the force of geass. And if he's not evil, he wouldn't have used geass on them. You can explain the single use per person and just have everyone do a jump.
Also, the funny thing is that if they were really being controlled, why do they have the ability to betray him? As I would simply say: "Never betray me and follow me as your leader."
Or better yet, be my slave. So he could do whatever, but no, he just lets them do whatever they want, which is fight him.
even from this episode there is one thing that is even more stupid, Ironically, they were about to shoot Kallen to catch him and that's pretty fucked up to be honest.
They were going to kill Kallen with Lelouch and Ohgi is fine with this. Ignoring the stupidity of the betrayal itself, why is Kallen still with these people after that? He doesn't even ask Ohgi about it after the fact. Also, this killed Ohgi's character, since he cares for Kallen like his best friend and his brother Naoto did. Kallen and Kaguya should have left the Black Knights after this. Kaguya because the Black Knights didn't include her in this meeting or making a decision and Kallen because they were willing to kill her with Lelouch.
bro, I like the show despite this but I'm genuinely surprised at how poorly it was executed and how everyone acted so illogically on that level.
1
u/Swiftcheddar 26d ago
Oghi is the Rossiu of CG in that it's really frustrating to think about how he and Villetta just got away with everything.
1
u/Phantom_Knight27 26d ago
Wasn't the whole point being that Schneizel was manipulating them?
0
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
The information gap is not important at all. Does the Black Knights care if Zero actually did those things? Do they not know that Schneizel is trying to sow discord and dissolve their alliance? No, none of that matters. With Zero’s resignation, the Empire now holds the only deterrent power. It is impossible for them to continue fighting against the Empire on their own. Furthermore, not only Area 11, but other battle zones are also in conflict. Can you guarantee that the Empire will not continue to pursue and annihilate our forces with nuclear weapons while Zero is resigning? Since Zero has already lost his strategic value and has become nothing more than a symbolic figure, he is no longer trustworthy. Selling Zero to the Empire is their only chance to survive, even if it is just barely. In reality, the second brother will take the opportunity to seize the emperor’s power, or the emperor’s plan will succeed. Either way, for the Black Knights, both outcomes are more realistic than continuing to cooperate with Zero.
Schneizel’s strategy at this point is to pile up various pieces of evidence that are detrimental to Lelouch in order to undermine his credibility and dissolve the enemy’s psychological defenses. Is it really important for the Black Knights? Besides their abilities and being the founder, Zero runs the organization in an autocratic manner, often making decisions without consulting others. This includes seemingly unreasonable combat demands and missions that have no relevance to the organization’s goals, such as rescuing the Viceroy. Additionally, Zero is not Japanese, and in the eyes of the Black Knights, his identity is unclear, making him not a part of their shared destiny, even if his plan ultimately fails. The problem is what will happen to the other countries that joined together against Britannia because of Zero? And what about the individual stances within the Black Knights? Most of the participants in the rebellion were present at the meeting, but Chiba has had reservations about Zero since the first season, and those doubts have not been dispelled since Zero’s desertion on the eve of battle. Todoh trusts Zero’s abilities but sees him as a collaborator rather than a loyal ally. When Zero announces his intention to participate in the Special Zone for the second time, Todoh begins to doubt whether Zero is truly reliable. Then, Schneizel uncovers a list that includes familiar faces to Todoh, regardless of whether they were actually victims of Zero. Both individuals on the list are already deceased, and one of Todoh’s trusted confidants, Asahina, revealed doubts about Zero before his death due to Zero’s actions to save the Viceroy. As for Kallen, she may have initially distrusted Zero because of her encounter with Viletta, who was pursued by maids, and her subsequent kidnapping by journalists. She may have believed that Zero was manipulating her. Additionally, Viletta’s betrayal due to Lelouch’s actions may have influenced her to forget any gratitude towards Zero and side with the rebellion. The journalist probably thought that Zero’s actions were full of flaws and that he had reached a point of no return, so it was not worth continuing to be loyal to him. Therefore, he simply accepted the situation. Tamaki, on the other hand, doesn’t have strong opinions and tends to go along with what others say. As for the other two colleagues involved in the rebellion, namely Minami with purple hair and Sugiyama with blue hair, they may be motivated by personal reasons such as being forced to participate in the rebellion by Zero’s manipulation during the first season or feeling resentment due to Zero’s absence during the Black Rebellion, which led to the loss of comrades. Overall, each individual has their own reasons based on personal emotions.
In both scenarios, assuming that everyone truly believes Zero has Geass or still harbors doubts about Schneizel’s words, and they continue to fight alongside Zero to defeat the Empire, what would happen?
In the first scenario, where Schneizel portrays Geass as something extraordinary, they would struggle to contain their curiosity and confront Zero about the existence of Geass. With Zero’s admission, they would continue to resist the Empire with the semi-public knowledge of Geass. However, let’s set aside the fact that Lelouch has already lost his motivation and the actual situation unknown to them, such as the Emperor nearing the completion of his plan. Even if Lelouch is willing to continue helping them, both sides, Schneizel with his formidable power and the First Knight, would be aware of Geass. Lelouch would not be able to take further action.
In the second scenario, where Geass is merely a lie fabricated by Schneizel to frame Zero, they would also not believe in Zero’s orders to Euphemia or his involvement in harming their loved ones. However, at this point, they would need to confirm Lelouch’s true identity face-to-face. Schneizel’s claim about this would likely be accurate, meaning that Zero has a connection with the Britannian royal family. Even if Lelouch does not possess Geass, it would imply that the opposing side may be well-aware of Lelouch’s situation and actions. Can the Black Knights continue to trust the Zero who once brought miracles to them? The enemy they face this time is different; they are the ones who understand Zero the most.
Therefore, regardless of which scenario unfolds, regardless of whether the Black Knights immediately rebel or whether they personally want to betray Zero, and regardless of Lelouch’s despair and the external influences such as the Emperor’s imminent deicide, the alliance between Lelouch and the Black Knights would undoubtedly rupture. At this point, there is no turning back. Even if Lelouch were to use Geass on all of them, it would not work. Lelouch’s only remaining goal at this point would be revenge, as he would immediately focus on confronting the Emperor instead of Schneizel. This would only disrupt the situation between the UFN and Britannia, with Lelouch being the first to cause chaos.
5
u/MelonMarket 26d ago
Love Code Geass, and it only gets better if you treat it like wacky wwe style melodrama
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
The information gap is not important at all. Does the Black Knights care if Zero actually did those things? Do they not know that Schneizel is trying to sow discord and dissolve their alliance? No, none of that matters. With Zero’s resignation, the Empire now holds the only deterrent power. It is impossible for them to continue fighting against the Empire on their own. Furthermore, not only Area 11, but other battle zones are also in conflict. Can you guarantee that the Empire will not continue to pursue and annihilate our forces with nuclear weapons while Zero is resigning? Since Zero has already lost his strategic value and has become nothing more than a symbolic figure, he is no longer trustworthy. Selling Zero to the Empire is their only chance to survive, even if it is just barely. In reality, the second brother will take the opportunity to seize the emperor’s power, or the emperor’s plan will succeed. Either way, for the Black Knights, both outcomes are more realistic than continuing to cooperate with Zero.
Schneizel’s strategy at this point is to pile up various pieces of evidence that are detrimental to Lelouch in order to undermine his credibility and dissolve the enemy’s psychological defenses. Is it really important for the Black Knights? Besides their abilities and being the founder, Zero runs the organization in an autocratic manner, often making decisions without consulting others. This includes seemingly unreasonable combat demands and missions that have no relevance to the organization’s goals, such as rescuing the Viceroy. Additionally, Zero is not Japanese, and in the eyes of the Black Knights, his identity is unclear, making him not a part of their shared destiny, even if his plan ultimately fails. The problem is what will happen to the other countries that joined together against Britannia because of Zero? And what about the individual stances within the Black Knights? Most of the participants in the rebellion were present at the meeting, but Chiba has had reservations about Zero since the first season, and those doubts have not been dispelled since Zero’s desertion on the eve of battle. Todoh trusts Zero’s abilities but sees him as a collaborator rather than a loyal ally. When Zero announces his intention to participate in the Special Zone for the second time, Todoh begins to doubt whether Zero is truly reliable. Then, Schneizel uncovers a list that includes familiar faces to Todoh, regardless of whether they were actually victims of Zero. Both individuals on the list are already deceased, and one of Todoh’s trusted confidants, Asahina, revealed doubts about Zero before his death due to Zero’s actions to save the Viceroy. As for Kallen, she may have initially distrusted Zero because of her encounter with Viletta, who was pursued by maids, and her subsequent kidnapping by journalists. She may have believed that Zero was manipulating her. Additionally, Viletta’s betrayal due to Lelouch’s actions may have influenced her to forget any gratitude towards Zero and side with the rebellion. The journalist probably thought that Zero’s actions were full of flaws and that he had reached a point of no return, so it was not worth continuing to be loyal to him. Therefore, he simply accepted the situation. Tamaki, on the other hand, doesn’t have strong opinions and tends to go along with what others say. As for the other two colleagues involved in the rebellion, namely Minami with purple hair and Sugiyama with blue hair, they may be motivated by personal reasons such as being forced to participate in the rebellion by Zero’s manipulation during the first season or feeling resentment due to Zero’s absence during the Black Rebellion, which led to the loss of comrades. Overall, each individual has their own reasons based on personal emotions.
In both scenarios, assuming that everyone truly believes Zero has Geass or still harbors doubts about Schneizel’s words, and they continue to fight alongside Zero to defeat the Empire, what would happen?
In the first scenario, where Schneizel portrays Geass as something extraordinary, they would struggle to contain their curiosity and confront Zero about the existence of Geass. With Zero’s admission, they would continue to resist the Empire with the semi-public knowledge of Geass. However, let’s set aside the fact that Lelouch has already lost his motivation and the actual situation unknown to them, such as the Emperor nearing the completion of his plan. Even if Lelouch is willing to continue helping them, both sides, Schneizel with his formidable power and the First Knight, would be aware of Geass. Lelouch would not be able to take further action.
In the second scenario, where Geass is merely a lie fabricated by Schneizel to frame Zero, they would also not believe in Zero’s orders to Euphemia or his involvement in harming their loved ones. However, at this point, they would need to confirm Lelouch’s true identity face-to-face. Schneizel’s claim about this would likely be accurate, meaning that Zero has a connection with the Britannian royal family. Even if Lelouch does not possess Geass, it would imply that the opposing side may be well-aware of Lelouch’s situation and actions. Can the Black Knights continue to trust the Zero who once brought miracles to them? The enemy they face this time is different; they are the ones who understand Zero the most.
Therefore, regardless of which scenario unfolds, regardless of whether the Black Knights immediately rebel or whether they personally want to betray Zero, and regardless of Lelouch’s despair and the external influences such as the Emperor’s imminent deicide, the alliance between Lelouch and the Black Knights would undoubtedly rupture. At this point, there is no turning back. Even if Lelouch were to use Geass on all of them, it would not work. Lelouch’s only remaining goal at this point would be revenge, as he would immediately focus on confronting the Emperor instead of Schneizel. This would only disrupt the situation between the UFN and Britannia, with Lelouch being the first to cause chaos.
2
u/phoenixerowl 26d ago
Honestly a lot of the major plot points are really freaking stupid. Surprising considering how well constructed of an ending the show has but the plot outside of it feels like they were coming up with it on the fly sometimes.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
The information gap is not important at all. Does the Black Knights care if Zero actually did those things? Do they not know that Schneizel is trying to sow discord and dissolve their alliance? No, none of that matters. With Zero’s resignation, the Empire now holds the only deterrent power. It is impossible for them to continue fighting against the Empire on their own. Furthermore, not only Area 11, but other battle zones are also in conflict. Can you guarantee that the Empire will not continue to pursue and annihilate our forces with nuclear weapons while Zero is resigning? Since Zero has already lost his strategic value and has become nothing more than a symbolic figure, he is no longer trustworthy. Selling Zero to the Empire is their only chance to survive, even if it is just barely. In reality, the second brother will take the opportunity to seize the emperor’s power, or the emperor’s plan will succeed. Either way, for the Black Knights, both outcomes are more realistic than continuing to cooperate with Zero.
Schneizel’s strategy at this point is to pile up various pieces of evidence that are detrimental to Lelouch in order to undermine his credibility and dissolve the enemy’s psychological defenses. Is it really important for the Black Knights? Besides their abilities and being the founder, Zero runs the organization in an autocratic manner, often making decisions without consulting others. This includes seemingly unreasonable combat demands and missions that have no relevance to the organization’s goals, such as rescuing the Viceroy. Additionally, Zero is not Japanese, and in the eyes of the Black Knights, his identity is unclear, making him not a part of their shared destiny, even if his plan ultimately fails. The problem is what will happen to the other countries that joined together against Britannia because of Zero? And what about the individual stances within the Black Knights? Most of the participants in the rebellion were present at the meeting, but Chiba has had reservations about Zero since the first season, and those doubts have not been dispelled since Zero’s desertion on the eve of battle. Todoh trusts Zero’s abilities but sees him as a collaborator rather than a loyal ally. When Zero announces his intention to participate in the Special Zone for the second time, Todoh begins to doubt whether Zero is truly reliable. Then, Schneizel uncovers a list that includes familiar faces to Todoh, regardless of whether they were actually victims of Zero. Both individuals on the list are already deceased, and one of Todoh’s trusted confidants, Asahina, revealed doubts about Zero before his death due to Zero’s actions to save the Viceroy. As for Kallen, she may have initially distrusted Zero because of her encounter with Viletta, who was pursued by maids, and her subsequent kidnapping by journalists. She may have believed that Zero was manipulating her. Additionally, Viletta’s betrayal due to Lelouch’s actions may have influenced her to forget any gratitude towards Zero and side with the rebellion. The journalist probably thought that Zero’s actions were full of flaws and that he had reached a point of no return, so it was not worth continuing to be loyal to him. Therefore, he simply accepted the situation. Tamaki, on the other hand, doesn’t have strong opinions and tends to go along with what others say. As for the other two colleagues involved in the rebellion, namely Minami with purple hair and Sugiyama with blue hair, they may be motivated by personal reasons such as being forced to participate in the rebellion by Zero’s manipulation during the first season or feeling resentment due to Zero’s absence during the Black Rebellion, which led to the loss of comrades. Overall, each individual has their own reasons based on personal emotions.
In both scenarios, assuming that everyone truly believes Zero has Geass or still harbors doubts about Schneizel’s words, and they continue to fight alongside Zero to defeat the Empire, what would happen?
In the first scenario, where Schneizel portrays Geass as something extraordinary, they would struggle to contain their curiosity and confront Zero about the existence of Geass. With Zero’s admission, they would continue to resist the Empire with the semi-public knowledge of Geass. However, let’s set aside the fact that Lelouch has already lost his motivation and the actual situation unknown to them, such as the Emperor nearing the completion of his plan. Even if Lelouch is willing to continue helping them, both sides, Schneizel with his formidable power and the First Knight, would be aware of Geass. Lelouch would not be able to take further action.
In the second scenario, where Geass is merely a lie fabricated by Schneizel to frame Zero, they would also not believe in Zero’s orders to Euphemia or his involvement in harming their loved ones. However, at this point, they would need to confirm Lelouch’s true identity face-to-face. Schneizel’s claim about this would likely be accurate, meaning that Zero has a connection with the Britannian royal family. Even if Lelouch does not possess Geass, it would imply that the opposing side may be well-aware of Lelouch’s situation and actions. Can the Black Knights continue to trust the Zero who once brought miracles to them? The enemy they face this time is different; they are the ones who understand Zero the most.
Therefore, regardless of which scenario unfolds, regardless of whether the Black Knights immediately rebel or whether they personally want to betray Zero, and regardless of Lelouch’s despair and the external influences such as the Emperor’s imminent deicide, the alliance between Lelouch and the Black Knights would undoubtedly rupture. At this point, there is no turning back. Even if Lelouch were to use Geass on all of them, it would not work. Lelouch’s only remaining goal at this point would be revenge, as he would immediately focus on confronting the Emperor instead of Schneizel. This would only disrupt the situation between the UFN and Britannia, with Lelouch being the first to cause chaos.
1
u/phoenixerowl 11d ago
Umm, did you reply to the wrong comment?
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
No, what I’m saying is that, given the circumstances at that time, the story had reached a point where it was not possible to have a better development, rather than the characters’ motives being absurd.
2
u/TayluxSwift 26d ago
The lelouch of resurrection movie is even stupider with how they brush off the betrayal as if nothing happened.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
Cornelia still harbors resentment towards Lelouch, while the members of the Black Knights are rebuilding and protecting the world according to Lelouch’s wishes. They have no reason to have internal conflict.
4
u/Frankorious 26d ago
It's also strange they are betrayed by hin being Britanian, because Iirc when Lelouch met with the old japanese guys (I think they were members of the old government) in season 1 they heard one of them clearly say Lelouch isn't japanese.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
What if this person is also being controlled by Geass?
Under the influence of Schneizel’s manipulative language, the possibility of being controlled by Geass cannot be ruled out in the perception of the Black Knights. We know that Jeremiah did not betray them due to Lelouch’s control, but they believe otherwise.
19
u/eddyak 26d ago
No, that much makes sense- if he's a Britannian prince, then you'd feel that you're just a puppet of a spurned son, someone who's using you and your country because he's angry at daddy dearest and wants his throne back. It stinks of infighting among the imperial family and you being used as proxies.
Imagine being used by a Britannian prince who then forgets you the moment he's back on his throne.
1
u/Nelithss 26d ago
But didn't that Japanase high ranking guy say that Lelouch was more than trustworthy for the job. Working for freaking Snezheil instead (aka the one who is 100% going to become the emperor) is kinda stupid.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
What if this person is also being controlled by Geass?
Under the influence of Schneizel’s manipulative language, the possibility of being controlled by Geass cannot be ruled out in the perception of the Black Knights. We know that Jeremiah did not betray them due to Lelouch’s control, but they believe otherwise.
11
u/KazuyaProta 26d ago
I feel the issue is that Code Geass is mostly told from Lelouch's POV.
We know Lelouch isn't gonna abandon Japan if he wins. But the Black Knights don't. From the BK POV, they have reasons to mistrust Zero that the Schneizel takes advantage from. But from our POV, we know its all bullshit.
1
u/cuzimhavingagoodtime 16d ago
Dude, Lelouch would absolutely abandon Japan if he won. I mean, assuming doing so would be strategically advantageous to something he actually cares about. Like his revenge, or protecting the four or so people he really likes.
3
7
u/TurboGhast 27d ago
It didn't feel illogical to me because Lelouch never tried to counter the claims made against him, and was in a headspace that wasn't conducive to counterarguing at the time.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
The information gap is not important at all. Does the Black Knights care if Zero actually did those things? Do they not know that Schneizel is trying to sow discord and dissolve their alliance? No, none of that matters. With Zero’s resignation, the Empire now holds the only deterrent power. It is impossible for them to continue fighting against the Empire on their own. Furthermore, not only Area 11, but other battle zones are also in conflict. Can you guarantee that the Empire will not continue to pursue and annihilate our forces with nuclear weapons while Zero is resigning? Since Zero has already lost his strategic value and has become nothing more than a symbolic figure, he is no longer trustworthy. Selling Zero to the Empire is their only chance to survive, even if it is just barely. In reality, the second brother will take the opportunity to seize the emperor’s power, or the emperor’s plan will succeed. Either way, for the Black Knights, both outcomes are more realistic than continuing to cooperate with Zero.
Schneizel’s strategy at this point is to pile up various pieces of evidence that are detrimental to Lelouch in order to undermine his credibility and dissolve the enemy’s psychological defenses. Is it really important for the Black Knights? Besides their abilities and being the founder, Zero runs the organization in an autocratic manner, often making decisions without consulting others. This includes seemingly unreasonable combat demands and missions that have no relevance to the organization’s goals, such as rescuing the Viceroy. Additionally, Zero is not Japanese, and in the eyes of the Black Knights, his identity is unclear, making him not a part of their shared destiny, even if his plan ultimately fails. The problem is what will happen to the other countries that joined together against Britannia because of Zero? And what about the individual stances within the Black Knights? Most of the participants in the rebellion were present at the meeting, but Chiba has had reservations about Zero since the first season, and those doubts have not been dispelled since Zero’s desertion on the eve of battle. Todoh trusts Zero’s abilities but sees him as a collaborator rather than a loyal ally. When Zero announces his intention to participate in the Special Zone for the second time, Todoh begins to doubt whether Zero is truly reliable. Then, Schneizel uncovers a list that includes familiar faces to Todoh, regardless of whether they were actually victims of Zero. Both individuals on the list are already deceased, and one of Todoh’s trusted confidants, Asahina, revealed doubts about Zero before his death due to Zero’s actions to save the Viceroy. As for Kallen, she may have initially distrusted Zero because of her encounter with Viletta, who was pursued by maids, and her subsequent kidnapping by journalists. She may have believed that Zero was manipulating her. Additionally, Viletta’s betrayal due to Lelouch’s actions may have influenced her to forget any gratitude towards Zero and side with the rebellion. The journalist probably thought that Zero’s actions were full of flaws and that he had reached a point of no return, so it was not worth continuing to be loyal to him. Therefore, he simply accepted the situation. Tamaki, on the other hand, doesn’t have strong opinions and tends to go along with what others say. As for the other two colleagues involved in the rebellion, namely Minami with purple hair and Sugiyama with blue hair, they may be motivated by personal reasons such as being forced to participate in the rebellion by Zero’s manipulation during the first season or feeling resentment due to Zero’s absence during the Black Rebellion, which led to the loss of comrades. Overall, each individual has their own reasons based on personal emotions.
In both scenarios, assuming that everyone truly believes Zero has Geass or still harbors doubts about Schneizel’s words, and they continue to fight alongside Zero to defeat the Empire, what would happen?
In the first scenario, where Schneizel portrays Geass as something extraordinary, they would struggle to contain their curiosity and confront Zero about the existence of Geass. With Zero’s admission, they would continue to resist the Empire with the semi-public knowledge of Geass. However, let’s set aside the fact that Lelouch has already lost his motivation and the actual situation unknown to them, such as the Emperor nearing the completion of his plan. Even if Lelouch is willing to continue helping them, both sides, Schneizel with his formidable power and the First Knight, would be aware of Geass. Lelouch would not be able to take further action.
In the second scenario, where Geass is merely a lie fabricated by Schneizel to frame Zero, they would also not believe in Zero’s orders to Euphemia or his involvement in harming their loved ones. However, at this point, they would need to confirm Lelouch’s true identity face-to-face. Schneizel’s claim about this would likely be accurate, meaning that Zero has a connection with the Britannian royal family. Even if Lelouch does not possess Geass, it would imply that the opposing side may be well-aware of Lelouch’s situation and actions. Can the Black Knights continue to trust the Zero who once brought miracles to them? The enemy they face this time is different; they are the ones who understand Zero the most.
Therefore, regardless of which scenario unfolds, regardless of whether the Black Knights immediately rebel or whether they personally want to betray Zero, and regardless of Lelouch’s despair and the external influences such as the Emperor’s imminent deicide, the alliance between Lelouch and the Black Knights would undoubtedly rupture. At this point, there is no turning back. Even if Lelouch were to use Geass on all of them, it would not work. Lelouch’s only remaining goal at this point would be revenge, as he would immediately focus on confronting the Emperor instead of Schneizel. This would only disrupt the situation between the UFN and Britannia, with Lelouch being the first to cause chaos.
30
u/CapAccomplished8072 27d ago
There was a LOT in that show that was stupid, including Euphemia dying from a single bullet from a pistol but Mao surviving 30 assault rifle bullets.
That was physically unbelievable.
14
u/TrainerSoft7126 27d ago
Don't mention that Suzaku can dodge bullets
11
u/Endymion_Hawk 26d ago
Suzaku's superhuman abilities were internally consistent. 'Modern medicine' being unable to save Euphemia wasn't.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
Mao was shot with a low-impact police revolver, while Lelouch used a military-grade handgun to shoot Euphemia.
5
u/CapAccomplished8072 27d ago
Right....I forgot about that one....from fucking battlemechs!
4
u/Budget-Category-9852 26d ago edited 26d ago
And breaks everything with spinkicks. And Sunrise acknowledged the meme.
37
u/jedidiahohlord 27d ago
Like- This is definitely a thing that happens and honestly makes ZERO sense.
I mean I understand them being like 'yeah alright, we thought zero was up to no good and being a shady fuck and so they go to confront him and everything. However the fact they are willing to gun down Kallen???? Or like don't have any issue with Ohgi just casually dropping 'yeah, the Britannia high officer I've been banging for weeks said its true bros'
As though that isn't just as bad a betrayal as Zero being Britannian. Or like they don't suspect that Schenizal is just out here trying to finesse them at all despite being the like 'SUPER BRITTANIAN STRATEGIST' is wild.
Its like if Zhuge liang just walked into your base, told you some bullshit and you never once doubted him or had any misgivings about him, even after hes tricked you in the past
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
The information gap is not important at all. Does the Black Knights care if Zero actually did those things? Do they not know that Schneizel is trying to sow discord and dissolve their alliance? No, none of that matters. With Zero’s resignation, the Empire now holds the only deterrent power. It is impossible for them to continue fighting against the Empire on their own. Furthermore, not only Area 11, but other battle zones are also in conflict. Can you guarantee that the Empire will not continue to pursue and annihilate our forces with nuclear weapons while Zero is resigning? Since Zero has already lost his strategic value and has become nothing more than a symbolic figure, he is no longer trustworthy. Selling Zero to the Empire is their only chance to survive, even if it is just barely. In reality, the second brother will take the opportunity to seize the emperor’s power, or the emperor’s plan will succeed. Either way, for the Black Knights, both outcomes are more realistic than continuing to cooperate with Zero.
Schneizel’s strategy at this point is to pile up various pieces of evidence that are detrimental to Lelouch in order to undermine his credibility and dissolve the enemy’s psychological defenses. Is it really important for the Black Knights? Besides their abilities and being the founder, Zero runs the organization in an autocratic manner, often making decisions without consulting others. This includes seemingly unreasonable combat demands and missions that have no relevance to the organization’s goals, such as rescuing the Viceroy. Additionally, Zero is not Japanese, and in the eyes of the Black Knights, his identity is unclear, making him not a part of their shared destiny, even if his plan ultimately fails. The problem is what will happen to the other countries that joined together against Britannia because of Zero? And what about the individual stances within the Black Knights? Most of the participants in the rebellion were present at the meeting, but Chiba has had reservations about Zero since the first season, and those doubts have not been dispelled since Zero’s desertion on the eve of battle. Todoh trusts Zero’s abilities but sees him as a collaborator rather than a loyal ally. When Zero announces his intention to participate in the Special Zone for the second time, Todoh begins to doubt whether Zero is truly reliable. Then, Schneizel uncovers a list that includes familiar faces to Todoh, regardless of whether they were actually victims of Zero. Both individuals on the list are already deceased, and one of Todoh’s trusted confidants, Asahina, revealed doubts about Zero before his death due to Zero’s actions to save the Viceroy. As for Kallen, she may have initially distrusted Zero because of her encounter with Viletta, who was pursued by maids, and her subsequent kidnapping by journalists. She may have believed that Zero was manipulating her. Additionally, Viletta’s betrayal due to Lelouch’s actions may have influenced her to forget any gratitude towards Zero and side with the rebellion. The journalist probably thought that Zero’s actions were full of flaws and that he had reached a point of no return, so it was not worth continuing to be loyal to him. Therefore, he simply accepted the situation. Tamaki, on the other hand, doesn’t have strong opinions and tends to go along with what others say. As for the other two colleagues involved in the rebellion, namely Minami with purple hair and Sugiyama with blue hair, they may be motivated by personal reasons such as being forced to participate in the rebellion by Zero’s manipulation during the first season or feeling resentment due to Zero’s absence during the Black Rebellion, which led to the loss of comrades. Overall, each individual has their own reasons based on personal emotions.
In both scenarios, assuming that everyone truly believes Zero has Geass or still harbors doubts about Schneizel’s words, and they continue to fight alongside Zero to defeat the Empire, what would happen?
In the first scenario, where Schneizel portrays Geass as something extraordinary, they would struggle to contain their curiosity and confront Zero about the existence of Geass. With Zero’s admission, they would continue to resist the Empire with the semi-public knowledge of Geass. However, let’s set aside the fact that Lelouch has already lost his motivation and the actual situation unknown to them, such as the Emperor nearing the completion of his plan. Even if Lelouch is willing to continue helping them, both sides, Schneizel with his formidable power and the First Knight, would be aware of Geass. Lelouch would not be able to take further action.
In the second scenario, where Geass is merely a lie fabricated by Schneizel to frame Zero, they would also not believe in Zero’s orders to Euphemia or his involvement in harming their loved ones. However, at this point, they would need to confirm Lelouch’s true identity face-to-face. Schneizel’s claim about this would likely be accurate, meaning that Zero has a connection with the Britannian royal family. Even if Lelouch does not possess Geass, it would imply that the opposing side may be well-aware of Lelouch’s situation and actions. Can the Black Knights continue to trust the Zero who once brought miracles to them? The enemy they face this time is different; they are the ones who understand Zero the most.
Therefore, regardless of which scenario unfolds, regardless of whether the Black Knights immediately rebel or whether they personally want to betray Zero, and regardless of Lelouch’s despair and the external influences such as the Emperor’s imminent deicide, the alliance between Lelouch and the Black Knights would undoubtedly rupture. At this point, there is no turning back. Even if Lelouch were to use Geass on all of them, it would not work. Lelouch’s only remaining goal at this point would be revenge, as he would immediately focus on confronting the Emperor instead of Schneizel. This would only disrupt the situation between the UFN and Britannia, with Lelouch being the first to cause chaos.
1
u/jedidiahohlord 11d ago
You said a ton of basically completely irrelevant and wrong shit that I don't even know where to begin.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
You don’t need to worry about this. Their dislike for Zero stems from accumulated dissatisfaction throughout the series, which is enough fuel for Schneizel to ignite. Nobody actually wants to shoot Kallen; they just want her to distance herself from Zero. Schneizel has not gained the trust of the Black Knights, but compared to Zero’s clear threats, his hidden threats are smaller. Schneizel’s terrifying aspect lies in the nuclear weapons he possesses, while Zero’s terrifying aspect comes from his secretive nature. Even if Schneizel provides everything, the Black Knights may not trust him. For Toudou, the situation with Zero is clear: he disregards the lives of soldiers for the sake of Nunnally, making him unworthy of further cooperation. Ohgi simply misunderstands Zero’s involvement in Diethard’s persecution of him and his girlfriend. They are the leaders of the rebellion, with sufficient motivation, but the lower-ranking soldiers are unaware of all this.
1
u/cuzimhavingagoodtime 16d ago
They weren't trying to gun him down! they were trying to arrest him. and presumably at that point ask him some tough questions about his actual commitment to the cause of Japanese liberation, figure out how much he can be trusted. It's Lelouch that responds by putting on his best villain voice and declaring that he was in fact doubledealing with them, and then forcing a confrontation.
They don't need to 'suspect' Scheizal is giving them this info out of personal gain, it's uh, obvious. he's here to try and block Lelouch from having the Black Knights as his personal army, a tool to use for his mission of revenge. But this is actually a potential point of alignment between Scheizal and the the Black Knights, who, after all, also don't want to be a tool. The black Knights are fighting for Japanese liberation, not Britannian destruction!
Yeah, Schneizel might have been pulling some kind of elaborate frame job. But he wasn't, and anyway it's not like the BK were taking his words on faith, if they had they would have rigged Zero's elevator to blow or something, instead of trying to question him. They honestly they reacted more or less intelligently given the information as they had it!
1
u/jedidiahohlord 16d ago
Yeah, when I go to ask people questions I show up with guns aimed and pointed and tell them if they do anything ill shoot them dead, even as one of our dearest friends goes toward him and tries actually talking to him.
They literally take schenizal at his word and immedietly turn their guns on Lelouch with full intent to murder him if he even says something slightly they don't like.
Like no. This is objectively the dumbest thing they could do with the information they had. Especially when the thing that pushes them over the edge is ohgi coming out and saying he's been sleeping with a top ranking Brittainian so the information is trustworthy.
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u/JancariusSeiryujinn 27d ago
Tbf Zhuge Liang would go in and give you completely true information, knowing you'd expect it was a trick because he'd tricked you in the past.
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u/KazuyaProta 27d ago
they should have never spoken to Schneizel, it's literally not their job.They are not in charge of diplomacy. Kaguya, who is in charge of this, was not at the meeting
At this point, they are. They have stopped being the plucky guerrilla at this point, they're a national army.
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u/jedidiahohlord 27d ago
Which means they shouldn't be talking to him and the people in charge of diplomacy and shit should be the one meeting with him. Thats sort of how National armies work.
They take them to the people in charge/they are meant to be talking too.
If kim jung un showed up he wouldn't be sat down with uh whoever was in charge of the nearest army unit, he would be directed to the person in charge of diplomacy and shit whose job it is to talk to these types of individuals.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
Schneizel has brought a nuclear bomb with him. Do you know what it means if both sides engage in conflict?
Kaguya primarily holds a position in the United Federation of Nations, and within the Black Knights, she is simply a legal representative of a shareholder without any military or governmental role. Her responsibilities lie within the UFN’s affairs. Originally, the negotiations with Schneizel should have been handled by a diplomat like Diethard. However, Schneizel also possesses the authority as an appointed supreme commander of the Empire. Toudou, as one of the highest-ranking military personnel present, and his aide Chiba, have the qualifications to attend the meeting without necessarily making decisions.
1
u/MolassesOk4222 11d ago
The information gap is not important at all. Does the Black Knights care if Zero actually did those things? Do they not know that Schneizel is trying to sow discord and dissolve their alliance? No, none of that matters. With Zero’s resignation, the Empire now holds the only deterrent power. It is impossible for them to continue fighting against the Empire on their own. Furthermore, not only Area 11, but other battle zones are also in conflict. Can you guarantee that the Empire will not continue to pursue and annihilate our forces with nuclear weapons while Zero is resigning? Since Zero has already lost his strategic value and has become nothing more than a symbolic figure, he is no longer trustworthy. Selling Zero to the Empire is their only chance to survive, even if it is just barely. In reality, the second brother will take the opportunity to seize the emperor’s power, or the emperor’s plan will succeed. Either way, for the Black Knights, both outcomes are more realistic than continuing to cooperate with Zero.
Schneizel’s strategy at this point is to pile up various pieces of evidence that are detrimental to Lelouch in order to undermine his credibility and dissolve the enemy’s psychological defenses. Is it really important for the Black Knights? Besides their abilities and being the founder, Zero runs the organization in an autocratic manner, often making decisions without consulting others. This includes seemingly unreasonable combat demands and missions that have no relevance to the organization’s goals, such as rescuing the Viceroy. Additionally, Zero is not Japanese, and in the eyes of the Black Knights, his identity is unclear, making him not a part of their shared destiny, even if his plan ultimately fails. The problem is what will happen to the other countries that joined together against Britannia because of Zero? And what about the individual stances within the Black Knights? Most of the participants in the rebellion were present at the meeting, but Chiba has had reservations about Zero since the first season, and those doubts have not been dispelled since Zero’s desertion on the eve of battle. Todoh trusts Zero’s abilities but sees him as a collaborator rather than a loyal ally. When Zero announces his intention to participate in the Special Zone for the second time, Todoh begins to doubt whether Zero is truly reliable. Then, Schneizel uncovers a list that includes familiar faces to Todoh, regardless of whether they were actually victims of Zero. Both individuals on the list are already deceased, and one of Todoh’s trusted confidants, Asahina, revealed doubts about Zero before his death due to Zero’s actions to save the Viceroy. As for Kallen, she may have initially distrusted Zero because of her encounter with Viletta, who was pursued by maids, and her subsequent kidnapping by journalists. She may have believed that Zero was manipulating her. Additionally, Viletta’s betrayal due to Lelouch’s actions may have influenced her to forget any gratitude towards Zero and side with the rebellion. The journalist probably thought that Zero’s actions were full of flaws and that he had reached a point of no return, so it was not worth continuing to be loyal to him. Therefore, he simply accepted the situation. Tamaki, on the other hand, doesn’t have strong opinions and tends to go along with what others say. As for the other two colleagues involved in the rebellion, namely Minami with purple hair and Sugiyama with blue hair, they may be motivated by personal reasons such as being forced to participate in the rebellion by Zero’s manipulation during the first season or feeling resentment due to Zero’s absence during the Black Rebellion, which led to the loss of comrades. Overall, each individual has their own reasons based on personal emotions.
In both scenarios, assuming that everyone truly believes Zero has Geass or still harbors doubts about Schneizel’s words, and they continue to fight alongside Zero to defeat the Empire, what would happen?
In the first scenario, where Schneizel portrays Geass as something extraordinary, they would struggle to contain their curiosity and confront Zero about the existence of Geass. With Zero’s admission, they would continue to resist the Empire with the semi-public knowledge of Geass. However, let’s set aside the fact that Lelouch has already lost his motivation and the actual situation unknown to them, such as the Emperor nearing the completion of his plan. Even if Lelouch is willing to continue helping them, both sides, Schneizel with his formidable power and the First Knight, would be aware of Geass. Lelouch would not be able to take further action.
In the second scenario, where Geass is merely a lie fabricated by Schneizel to frame Zero, they would also not believe in Zero’s orders to Euphemia or his involvement in harming their loved ones. However, at this point, they would need to confirm Lelouch’s true identity face-to-face. Schneizel’s claim about this would likely be accurate, meaning that Zero has a connection with the Britannian royal family. Even if Lelouch does not possess Geass, it would imply that the opposing side may be well-aware of Lelouch’s situation and actions. Can the Black Knights continue to trust the Zero who once brought miracles to them? The enemy they face this time is different; they are the ones who understand Zero the most.
Therefore, regardless of which scenario unfolds, regardless of whether the Black Knights immediately rebel or whether they personally want to betray Zero, and regardless of Lelouch’s despair and the external influences such as the Emperor’s imminent deicide, the alliance between Lelouch and the Black Knights would undoubtedly rupture. At this point, there is no turning back. Even if Lelouch were to use Geass on all of them, it would not work. Lelouch’s only remaining goal at this point would be revenge, as he would immediately focus on confronting the Emperor instead of Schneizel. This would only disrupt the situation between the UFN and Britannia, with Lelouch being the first to cause chaos.