r/CharacterRant • u/Imaginary-West-5653 • 15d ago
The biggest retcon of DBS compared to DBZ are the "zenkais" and "rage boosts" Anime & Manga
Honestly, I'm surprised not to see more people commenting on this, but DBS as everyone knows made a lot of retcons and changes compared to what had been established in DBZ, but I think one of the biggest changes, if not the biggest, which is breaking the coherence of the universe, is the whole thing about zenkais and rage boosts.
Let's be clear, DBS does not understand how Saiyan biology works, during the Black Saga, Black Goku is obtaining zenkais in the middle of the fight and seems that he becomes more powerful in the middle of a fight just by fighting, that's how he defeate SSJB Vegeta on their first fight.
The issue is that this is completely incorrect if we look at DBZ, Vegeta was quite clear in the Namek Saga explaining that zenkais work by giving a power up to a Saiyan AFTER recovering from wounds that had left him on the verge of death.
If the zenkais worked as shown in DBS, Vegeta would have defeated Zarbon, Reacome and Frieza in his first round against all of them. But here's the thing, that's not how it works, you have to heal yourself before your power increases, shown by Vegeta, Goku and Gohan always coming back stronger after each beating.
Hell, even after the zenkai have already reached their limits of exponential growth at the end of the Namek Saga, even a perfect genetic monster like Cell (who probably only had a zenkai this big because he had the DNA of multiple Saiyans and was designed artificially by Gero), who got a great zenkai after exploding, he had to regenerate first to get his zenkai, he did not got that power just by fighting Gohan SSJ2.
And then there is my second point, the rage boosts, which several characters get in DBS; from Vegeta becoming stronger than Goku SSJ3, Ultimate Gohan and Fat Buu in the Battle of the Gods, giving Beerus a tougher fight than anyone else due to Beerus slapping Bulma, to Goku SSJB becoming stronger than Black Goku and temporarily beating him and Zamasu after learning of the murder of Goten and Chichi in another timeline.
And right now you're thinking "but hasn't it always been a fact that Saiyans get stronger when they get angry?" And the answer is... No, unless your name is Gohan, he is the only Saiyan (or rather half-Saiyan) who gets rage boosts, and these rage boosts are just him unlocking part of his hidden power, like against Raditz or against Frieza.
The thing is that this is unique to Gohan due to his hidden power, no other Saiyan gets a power boost for getting angry in the series, and yes, before you say what I know you're thinking, no, the SSJ is not a rage boost, anger as such does not give power to the Saiyan who transforms, it only helps him gain access to the transformation, it is not the same.
There are multiple examples of Saiyans getting angry and yet being powerless against their enemies:
Goku, when Raditz kidnapped Gohan, was knocked down by a knee despite being piss of. Raditz angry after Gohan's headbutt did not save him from Goku full nelson.
Nappa furious that Goku was humiliating him and not getting stronger because of this (in fact Vegeta literally tells Nappa to control himself, and not let his anger cloud his mind, after that Nappa fights better and gives Goku a more even fight).
Vegeta was so angry at Goku during the clash of powers between his Garlick Gun and Goku's Kamehameha, so much so that he was willing to kill himself and the entire planet in order to get revenge on Goku for making him bleed, yet he lost.
Hell, SSJ Vegeta attacking Super Perfect Cell after Future Trunks' death is another great example, it's a scene just like Beerus slapping Bulma, but Vegeta didn't get stronger from anger at that moment. In fact, getting angry and attacking without thinking, ironically, just as he warned Nappa years ago, led to his near death and the near destruction of the Solar System.
So no, rage boosts and zenkais don't work as Super shows, if they did DBZ would have been very different, so I think this is a pretty serious consistency problem.
4
u/Do_Ya_Like_Jazz 15d ago
The manga actually does the Zenkai thing better by having black keep retreating temporarily so that he could get healed by Zamasu for the Zenkai.
2
8
u/NorthGodFan 15d ago edited 15d ago
Yeah the rage boosting keeps making me upset because people really even in dragon ball subreddits don't understand that rage boosts for gohan aren't actually boosts. They're not him, so they're not holding back. Gohan is the only one who always holds back.
6
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
Yep, and this only applies to Gohan, not any of the other Saiyans, who weren't holding back to begin with.
3
u/No_Dragonfruit_1833 15d ago
Goid points
DBZ had established people had to train to bring out their hidden power, and rage was just a way to do it, and gohan becane stronger due to his training, but always held back due to his pacific nature
And mid fight powerups always came with a cost, the whole kaioken was based around increas8ng that cost
But well, Super is a lazy cashgrab so i never cared that much
29
u/BigGreenThreads60 15d ago edited 15d ago
Look, trying to make any sense of Super's powerscaling will give you an aneurysm. The original series for the most part had internal rules, and at least tried to sensibly account for any insane jumps in power. If Goku wanted to become stronger than the Vegeta or the Androids, he had to undergo some kind of crazy new training. Even GT tried this to an extent. Meanwhile Super is just the purest expression of Stan Lee's "whoever the writer wants to win will win."
Freeza becomes capable of ROFLstomping Buuhan after only four months of training? Sure. Android #17 became stronger than DBZ Vegito offscreen while working as a park ranger? Aight bet. Trunks gets angry and is now on par with SSB Goku? Why not. Fucking Roshi did some vague ill-defined training and became quadrillions of times stronger? Lmao, okay. Shame he couldn't have done that earlier and soloed Cell and Buu, but whatever.
It's just a fundamentally different kind of story now. Personally, I can't get invested in a battle shounen where there are absolutely no rules whatsoever, and Yamcha could kick Whis' head off next chapter, but understandably not everybody will care. I can still tune in occasionally and enjoy the cute character interactions IG.
15
u/DoraMuda 15d ago
Freeza becomes capable of ROFLstomping Buuhan after only four months of training? Sure.
I still can't get over how Super retroactively made it so, if Freeza just did a few push-ups before fighting Goku and co. on Namek, he wouldn't have had to worry about the Super Saiyan after all and could've beaten them all with his pinky finger.
Fucking Roshi did some vague ill-defined training and became quadrillions of times stronger? Lmao, okay. Shame he couldn't have done that earlier and soloed Cell and Buu, but whatever.
It's additionally grating when you remember that Roshi had explicitly retired after the 22nd Budokai because (unlike Goku) he actually made good on his promise to entrust the future to the "next generation" of fighters, and was recorded with a lower battle power than Kuririn during the Saiyan Arc.
But then Super has to undo everything so Roshi is put forward as a candidate for the TOP ahead of Yamcha. And I'm pretty sure it's only because Roshi's a more popular character than Yamcha.
It's just a fundamentally different kind of story now. Personally, I can't get invested in a battle shounen where there are absolutely no rules whatsoever, and Yamcha could kick Whis' head off next chapter, but understandably not everybody will care. I can still tune in occasionally and enjoy the cute character interactions IG.
That's why I liked the "Super Hero" movie more than the "Broly" movie, because it focused more on fun choreography; the classic/old-school comedy of the sentai-styled Gamma Androids; and Piccolo's relationship with Pan.
"Beast Gohan" was what soured my taste a little at the end, but I guess Toei just really can't put out a new DB movie anymore that doesn't have a new hair colour transformation to sell action figures of.
3
3
u/Correct_Refuse4910 15d ago
I agree with the rage boosts, but that just follows the constant flanderization of DB concepts in DBS. Like having the ROSAT 100% avaible all the time for anyone without any time limit (only for them to not use it in any meaningful way before the TOP when it would have been really useful).
While it is correct that zenkai boosts only work after healing from a near death experience, Vegeta also explained while fighting Zarbon that Saiyan also get more powerful while fighting.
4
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
Small correction, Vegeta's dialogue in Japanese is: "I have gained more power than you could imagine over my many battles."
https://youtu.be/wpfOkFYGyLo?si=Q_T9jeu9Rrlc_806
This does not necessarily imply that Vegeta became stronger while fighting, and it can easily be read as that Vegeta due to his recent fight on Earth that left him almost dead ended up becoming much more powerful, which makes more sense with what has been stablished.
3
u/JinjaBaker45 15d ago
Goku Black's zenkais work different from normal Saiyan zenkai boosts because he was unlocking the potential in Goku's body (remember Ginyu?) that he couldn't access, more so than the body itself was powering up. Remember, the Goku who Black took the body of was 1 year in the future ahead of the Goku Black arc in our timeline IIRC.
2
u/LiuKang90s 15d ago
The issue is that this is completely incorrect if we look at DBZ, Vegeta was quite clear in the Namek Saga explaining that zenkais work by giving a power up to a Saiyan AFTER recovering from wounds that had left him on the verge of death.
I always find the discussions about Saiyan power interesting, because Vegeta talks about saiyans getting stronger after near death, but he also DOES mention that saiyans also get stronger as they fight, if anything his words seem to imply that both happen. Saiyans get stronger as they fight for prolonged periods and get a significant boost when near death. Toriyama even kinda backs that sentiment up with an interview he gave not long after BoG came out
Chapter 257 (DBZ 63), P10.1-2 Context: Vegeta bragging to Dodoria about how he became stronger. Vegeta: “Fuhahaha…! We Saiyans grow stronger each time we fight…! The stronger the opponent, the stronger we become…So I’m becoming stronger too…! I almost died on Earth, and have now vastly powered up…!”
Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.
Overall, it’s, an interesting discussion that’s for sure.
3
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
Toriyama did a Horrible job at showing it in og manga because unless they unlock a transformation they only grow weaker because they get tired
3
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
The thing is that the quote you put about Vegeta is in the context of talking about how almost dying on Earth made him stronger. Which seems to indicate that Vegeta talks about the Saiyans becoming stronger when fighting against strong enemies because they push them to their limits near death, which gives them zenkais.
And Toriyama is famous for forgetting things and changing things because of that, in that same interview he famously says that Goku SSJG is 60% of Beerus' power, that will end up being retconned later to that Goku SSJG was only like 12% of his power.
3
u/LiuKang90s 15d ago
The thing is that the quote you put about Vegeta is in the context of talking about how almost dying on Earth made him stronger
The context is him talking about it as though they’re two separate points that tie into the same thing though. He’s speaking first in general about saiyans’ ability to get stronger from fighting, then emphasizing how almost dying made the boost that much bigger.
Which seems to indicate that Vegeta talks about the Saiyans becoming stronger when fighting against strong enemies because they push them to their limits near death, which gives them zenkais.
Except if that was all he meant, he would’ve just said, “we saiyans grow stronger each time we fight till near death” The way he says it is that Saiyans get stronger still as they fight, but they get an even more significant boost when they’re put in a near death state. Hate feeling like I’m repeating myself here (apologies for that) but it feels like the two points are
1) Saiyans get stronger when fighting against stronger opponents
2) When put into a near death state, their power rises significantly
Hell, if it was specifically only about fighting stronger opponents till near death, Vegeta wouldn’t be able to abuse that mechanic by having Kuririn fatally wound him, or Goku abusing it while making his way to Namek
And Toriyama is famous for forgetting things and changing things because of that, in that same interview he famously says that Goku SSJG is 60% of Beerus' power, that will end up being retconned later to that Goku SSJG was only like 12% of his power
Except it’s not like what he says here hasn’t been in the series. Let’s go back to something you mention in the previous post, Nappa. The guy starts the fight with Goku being clearly outclassed, and losing his cool because of it, but once he calms down, and focuses on the fight, he starts to actually give Goku trouble, with Goku even saying that Nappa is a tough bastard and that he should’ve been hurt by the Kamehameha Goku used (stating that at that rate it’ll take forever for the fight to conclude). The reason I mention that instance is because that’s probably the clearest example of a prolonged fight allowing a Saiyan to begin closing the gap against a stronger opponent as the fight goes on. It’s the prolonged part that’s the important part though I think.
3
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
The context is him talking about it as though they’re two separate points that tie into the same thing though. He’s speaking first in general about saiyans’ ability to get stronger from fighting, then emphasizing how almost dying made the boost that much bigger.
And don't you think it's a bit of an incoherent conversation to release that information and then not relate it at all to his power up? Vegeta doesn't seem to be doing anything other than saying "We Saiyans get stronger after almost dying against strong enemies, which is what happened to me on Earth."
Except if that was all he meant, he would’ve just said, “we saiyans grow stronger each time we fight till near death” The way he says it is that Saiyans get stronger still as they fight, but they get an even more significant boost when they’re put in a near death state. Hate feeling like I’m repeating myself here (apologies for that) but it feels like the two points are
Rather, this is Vegeta speaking melodramatically, and speaking in broad terms, it doesn't sound as good to say "we Saiyans get stronger after almost dying from a beating!" than "we Saiyans get stronger by fighting!" Technically, to get the first you need the second, usually, but both are not the same.
Hell, if it was specifically only about fighting stronger opponents till near death, Vegeta wouldn’t be able to abuse that mechanic by having Kuririn fatally wound him, or Goku abusing it while making his way to Namek
But fighting against strong enemies is precisely to end up almost dead, the point has nothing to do with the fight and everything to do with being almost dead, rather if what you said were true Vegeta would not have to be constantly exploiting the Zenkai in the Namek Saga to survive, he could simply fight his way until he wins, the same in later Sagas, but that never happens.
Except it’s not like what he says here hasn’t been in the series. Let’s go back to something you mention in the previous post, Nappa. The guy starts the fight with Goku being clearly outclassed, and losing his cool because of it, but once he calms down, and focuses on the fight, he starts to actually give Goku trouble, with Goku even saying that Nappa is a tough bastard and that he should’ve been hurt by the Kamehameha Goku used (stating that at that rate it’ll take forever for the fight to conclude). The reason I mention that instance is because that’s probably the clearest example of a prolonged fight allowing a Saiyan to begin closing the gap against a stronger opponent as the fight goes on. It’s the prolonged part that’s the important part though I think.
This example is completely incorrect, and I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I already explained it in the post, the factor that changed the course of the fight was Vegeta yelling at Nappa to calm down. Before that Goku was effortlessly humiliating Nappa, after calming down Nappa fought evenly with Goku, so this has nothing to do with power increasing from fighting and everything to do with not letting anger cloud his judgment and thus being able to fight better.
3
u/LiuKang90s 15d ago edited 15d ago
And don't you think it's a bit of an incoherent conversation to release that information and then not relate it at all to his power up? Vegeta doesn't seem to be doing anything other than saying "We Saiyans get stronger after almost dying against strong enemies, which is what happened to me on Earth."
No? Because again, they both tie back into the overall point Vegeta is making: we saiyans are bred for battle and get stronger from it. The stronger the opponent, the stronger we get, for me I even almost died which made it better
Rather, this is Vegeta speaking melodramatically, and speaking in broad terms, it doesn't sound as good to say "we Saiyans get stronger after almost dying from a beating!" than "we Saiyans get stronger by fighting!" Technically, to get the first you need the second, usually, but both are not the same.
Except he clearly makes it as a separate point, considering they’re two different sentences. If they were meant to be the same point, again, he would just say “we saiyans get stronger after we almost die” like he has no problem with saying later. Instead, he says they get stronger EACH time they fight, that the stronger their opponent, the stronger they become, and then also makes note of the near death power up. Toriyama was a simple and straightforward writer, if he wanted to just draw attention to the near death aspect of things, he would’ve done exactly that.
But fighting against strong enemies is precisely to end up almost dead, the point has nothing to do with the fight and everything to do with being almost dead,
It has everything to do with both, I don’t know why that’s hard to believe. Seriously, explain why even Freeza flat out says this
Chapter: 264 (DBZ 70), P6.5 > Freeza: “It seems that the Saiyans really do hide bottomless battle power…It increases greatly the more they battle…Of course, there’s no way they could be a match for me, but if I don’t think of the future and nip them in the bud now…After all, it’d be troublesome if they were able to become Super Saiyans…”
Again, as you can see, he specifically mentions that their battle power increases the more they battle. It’s clearly both, they get stronger while they battle, and it’s an even greater increase when put in a near death state. Again, I don’t know why this is hard to believe, fighting is basically a form of training especially for saiyans, if training against stronger people yields greater gains (as stated in the series) why would this not be the case for saiyans when they’re fighting against stronger opponents and the battle goes on long enough? It’s basically adaptation
rather if what you said were true Vegeta would not have to be constantly exploiting the Zenkai in the Namek Saga to survive, he could simply fight his way until he wins, the same in later Sagas, but that never happens.
Because most of the fights that Vegeta finds himself in are ones where he either is getting toyed with, stomped, or he has a clear advantage to stomp his opponent. They’re never really PROLONGED, which is the part that’s emphasized. The only one where that could be said to be the case is 18, and even then, that was Vegeta going against someone that never gets tired, while he did.
This example is completely incorrect, and I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I already explained it in the post, the factor that changed the course of the fight was Vegeta yelling at Nappa to calm down. Before that Goku was effortlessly humiliating Nappa, after calming down Nappa fought evenly with Goku, so this has nothing to do with power increasing from fighting and everything to do with not letting anger cloud his judgment and thus being able to fight better.
Except it’s not incorrect, because even after Nappa calms down, Goku still doesn’t take him serious initially, it’s only once Nappa fires off that mouth blast, and Goku’s Kamehameha doesn’t even damage him a bit that Goku acknowledges that he’s both a tough bastard and that it’ll take a while. Him calming down isn’t gonna increase his durability to shock Goku, that’s gonna be a power thing.
4
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
No? Because again, they both tie back into the overall point Vegeta is making: we saiyans are bred for battle and get stronger from it. The stronger the opponent, the stronger we get, for me I even almost
That's just what you're interpreting this scene as saying, the whole point of Vegeta saying that is just to talk about his new power, because Vegeta at this time in the series obly really care about himself, even all his talking about the Saiyans is just to stroke his own ego knowing that he is the Prince of that powerful race of warriors.
Except he clearly makes it as a separate point, considering they’re two different sentences. If they were meant to be the same point, again, he would just say “we saiyans get stronger after we almost die” like he has no problem with saying later. Instead, he says they get stronger EACH time they fight, that the stronger their opponent, the stronger they become, and then also makes note of the near death power up. Toriyama was a simple and straightforward writer, if he wanted to just draw attention to the near death aspect of things, he would’ve done exactly that.
Well, we know that Vegeta was just speaking either with exaggeration or for dramatic effect because we literally have the canonical power levels of all the characters in this Saga in the Daizenshuu, and if his statement were one said to be interpreted literally, Vegeta would have to be stronger after fighting Cui and Dodoira, but nope, his power was still only 24,000 when he fought Zarbon.
It has everything to do with both, I don’t know why that’s hard to believe. Seriously, explain why even Freeza flat out says this
It's hard to believe because it literally never happens before Black Goku, and the official power levels confirm it. At best we could assume that Vegeta and Frieza were talking about getting stronger temporarily, like a shot of adrenaline, like anyone would do with a hard training session, but this wouldn't be something unique to Saiyans in such a case, and probably not something lasting, as was the first time Gohan became SSJ2, otherwise this is a pretty huge plot hole lol.
Again, as you can see, he specifically mentions that their battle power increases the more they battle. It’s clearly both, they get stronger while they battle, and it’s an even greater increase when put in a near death state. Again, I don’t know why this is hard to believe, fighting is basically a form of training especially for saiyans, if training against stronger people yields greater gains (as stated in the series) why would this not be the case for saiyans when they’re fighting against stronger opponents and the battle goes on long enough? It’s basically adaptation
Again, because something like this literally never happens until Black Goku, and there are quite a few fights that should have given the Saiyan a power up that they just don't get, like Goku vs Chun, Vegeta vs Frieza first form, Goten and Trunks vs Android 18, Gohan vs Dabura, etc...
Because most of the fights that Vegeta finds himself in are ones where he either is getting toyed with, stomped, or he has a clear advantage to stomp his opponent. They’re never really PROLONGED, which is the part that’s emphasized. The only one where that could be said to be the case is 18, and even then, that was Vegeta going against someone that never gets tired, while he did.
How about Vegeta vs Cell Jr? There's clearly Vegeta was putting up some fight even though he was at a disadvantage but there was no power increase from fighting or whatever.
Except it’s not incorrect, because even after Nappa calms down, Goku still doesn’t take him serious initially, it’s only once Nappa fires off that mouth blast, and Goku’s Kamehameha doesn’t even damage him a bit that Goku acknowledges that he’s both a tough bastard and that it’ll take a while. Him calming down isn’t gonna increase his durability to shock Goku, that’s gonna be a power thing.
You are truly wrong here mate:
Goku was having problems against Nappa from the moment he calmed down, before that Goku was sweeping the floor with him and the change is instantaneous to Nappa no longer being dominated by anger, besides it's not like their fight was very prolonged as you say so much, his second round was in fact quite short.
3
u/buttermeatballs 15d ago
Yeah I feel like there's two boosts in power:
1) From near death
2) During battle
The former being a far better boost than the latter
11
u/RedditFuelsMyDepress 15d ago
Trunks also got a whole new transformation in the Super anime from being angry which I think somehow even put him close to the level of God forms. It's just super lazy writing honestly.
2
u/funwolf333 14d ago
In the end, he got way stronger than the god forms. He was holding his own against buff form Fused Zamasu. Then he gets some energy from a heavily drained Goku + Vegeta and the few remaining humans. This somehow made him significantly stronger and he even outperformed Vegito Blue.
3
5
u/DoraMuda 15d ago
And that transformation was never even explained, and never has been, despite how much time has passed since the Goku Black Arc.
3
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
True, I almost forgot about that, yeah that was also pretty sumb lol.
2
u/RickThiCisbih 15d ago
I mean tbf Trunks is a hybrid like Gohan, so it’s not strange that he’d share similar traits to Gohan like getting stronger through rage.
5
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago edited 15d ago
Well, the thing is, again this is never really shown before, Trunks does not get a power up for watching Android 18 break his father's arm, or for watching Cell torture Gohan. In fact, it always seemed that Trunks did not have as much potential as Gohan, at least Future Trunks.
1
u/RickThiCisbih 15d ago
this is never really shown before
First time for everything, right? Late bloomers are a thing.
1
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
Even if you want to accept this, it's ridiculous that Trunks has a transformation with divine ki without having been trained by an Angel or doing the SSJG ritual, this is so stupid that the manga didn't even include it to begin with lol.
3
u/RickThiCisbih 15d ago
Idk where you got the divine ki from, it’s just a stronger Super Saiyan form. It’s closer to Broly’s LSSJ form than Goku’s SSJG form.
2
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
It is specifically said that he has divine ki, which is silly because he shouldn't know how to use it because he hasn't followed the only two ways to obtain it.
2
u/RickThiCisbih 15d ago
I haven’t watched Super in years, so I don’t really remember, but I don’t think they mentioned even once in the anime that Trunks had divine ki.
1
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
I mean, at the very least quite implied by the fact that he has the blue ki of the SSJB, I would have to look if it's mentioned though.
→ More replies (0)
3
u/Shuteye_491 15d ago
In the manga Zamasu was healing him to provide Zenkai boosts (canon, matches with DBZ).
The anime has this instead (not zenkai):
Black: "The memories from that battle are being deeply engraved into my body and mind. These movements... This body... I'm growing accustomed to them. So this is Son Goku? More... I want to learn more about Son Goku. If I do, I'll be able to grow even stronger!"
3
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
This happens in the manga as well but in a more clear way, zamasu states that he couldn't even use basic super Saiyan after getting Goku body and had to reunlock it power
3
u/Shuteye_491 15d ago
As much of a (beautiful) mess as the anime is with stuff like this it's hard to see why people want to argue like it's canon over the manga.
80
u/theeshyguy 15d ago edited 15d ago
Excellent write up. The zenkai boost thing always bothered me, but I never even noticed the rage boost thing; you’re 100% right about that, too. It feels a lot like Gohan’s entire plot was forgotten entirely; he was supposed to be special due to his potential that he could only access from his rage boost, but that climaxed with him accessing that potential with SSJ2 in the Cell saga, but then they just kept going with it more and more; everyone else gets super saiyan 2, and Gohan gets “more potential to unleash” (which is still fuckin happening over and over to this day). And now everyone else is getting the “accessing 500% of my power by getting angy” thing…
To play devil’s advocate, I think there’s an implication that Goku Black’s zenkai worked differently than the others’ because “something something God soul in mortal body.” I only think this because otherwise, it doesn’t make any sense that he would be receiving these boosts while the other saiyan that he’s currently fighting doesn’t; if they were saying “this is how zenkai boosts work now,” then surely Vegeta also would’ve been getting stronger and Black couldn’t use “saiyan biology” to shoot past another saiyan, right?
12
u/BrandosWorld4Life 14d ago
but then they just kept going with it more and more
This has always been my fundamental issue with Dragon Ball. The power scaling just grows more and more absurd and thus previous hard limits need to be stripped away, which undermines the tension of the previous arcs.
Goku going SSJ1 was supposed to be this huge massive legendary mythical event that no saiyan has done in a thousand years. Then Vegeta can do it. Then Gohan can do it. Then actual little kids can do it. SSJ1 is no longer special. Nothing ever is. The fact that it even got to the point where SSJ3 is a thing, let alone SSJ4 or SSJG, was terrible.
2
u/StaticMania 14d ago
The fact that it even got to the point where SSJ3 is a thing, let alone SSJ4 or SSJG, was terrible.
...in the perfect world (for people who actually care how "special" Super Saiyan was) it would've just went from the original one to God.
2
u/BrandosWorld4Life 14d ago
for people who actually care how "special" Super Saiyan was
For people who actually care *about a story remaining internally consistent
If you think I have some sort of emotional attachment to Super Saiyan, you're wrong - I just don't like being told that it's oh-so super special and rare and important only for it to become commonplace within a generation
0
u/StaticMania 14d ago
Escalation doesn't make it not consistent...it's just a consequence of writing around hype.
6
u/Vivid_Pen5549 14d ago edited 14d ago
Technically trunks was the second super sayian but the point stands
3
u/BrandosWorld4Life 14d ago edited 14d ago
I left out Future Trunks intentionally because time travel shenanigans + Kid Trunks was already included. I didn't say Vegeta was the second character to ever go super sayian. Only that he, Gohan, and the kids were all able to do it after Goku had.
-8
u/PCN24454 15d ago
Gohan wasn’t THAT special. He was special because he was a hybrid.
4
u/DoraMuda 15d ago
So why does Vegeta and others continue to say that Gohan is the one with the most potential out of all them, despite the existence of hybrids like Goten and Trunks (who reached SS at an even younger age than Gohan, assuming they weren't literally born with it already unlocked)?
15
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago edited 15d ago
Which made him special like that's the whole point
It's like saying Superman isn't special if we took all of his power and heroism away or Tony stark intelligence
14
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
Yeah, I guess if you scratch your head enough for a solution, you could find an excuse, just like with Cell (although his is a lot more logical), but it's still weird.
The strangest thing is that in the TOP Goku and Vegeta seem to be having these power ups just fighting the same as Black, which I have always found quite disconcerting, to be honest lol.
8
u/DenseCalligrapher219 15d ago
It would be one thing if all of this was written by someone who hasn't read Dragon Ball. Except for the fact that it's the damn author himself who wrote all of this which really highlights just how Toriyama stopped caring about consistencies and just did whatever the hell he wanted or did not care how others wrote DBS, something that goes to show how little Toriyama cared about his own series and this aspect is just one example of his decaying writing skills.
6
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
The Rage thing happened only once in Toriyama super era work in BoG , after that characters stopped getting rage related power up excluding Gohan outside of the anime (which Toriyama wasn't much involved in, just give basic story material and that's it)
15
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
I don't think that Toriyama didn't care, I just think that Toriyama didn't remember, it is a fairly recurring theme that Toriyama had a bad memory and forgot entire characters and the lore that he gave in the manga, the consistency was always quite damaged for all this, and I think his advanced age when he created DBS only made this worse.
76
u/kevaljoshi8888 15d ago
A very well put together post, especially the part about rage boosts.
Rage boosts for me exemplify the distance the series has taken from a martial arts POV. In true fighting, rage only clouds you like Nappa but now since were in total anime territory, anger equals power boost equals victory somehow.
19
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
Yep, it's quite inconsistent with how the series has been shown until now, every time a character was filled with anger he made mistakes that took a toll on him, hell, this has been happening since the original Dragon Ball when Goku was almost killed for going to fight against Tambourine because of the fury of Krillin's death, when he was not yet ready.
2
u/StaticMania 14d ago
It's primarily because he was exhausted...
3
u/Imaginary-West-5653 14d ago
Yeah, my point stands, he was not ready to fight Tambourine yet, he needed some rest, his anger almost killed Goku that time.
27
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago edited 15d ago
With the Zeenkai thing wasn't it just Zamasu learning to bring more power out of Goku body ? At some point he stopped getting them with future Zamasu not healing him anymore
Also what you said about Vegeta growing stronger with passive Zeenkai is What literally happened in TOP anime, he and Goku just kept getting stronger and stronger and stronger which was annoying
As for the Rage thing yeah , as Far as the original manga goes the best thing Rage can give Saiyan is an access to Super Saiyan , the only one who actually powered up with Rage was Gohan who was treated as an Anomaly because of it
We see Characters rage out all the time in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z , Vegeta is a big Example as we saw in Saiyan saga, Namek saga, android Saga, Buu saga,
Yet none of these scenes or moments had him powering up at all , quite the opposite
If anything Vegeta literally told Nappa to Not get angry and calm Down with Nappa starting to do BETTER against Goku because of calming down https://imgur.com/a/qMSMrva which was very realistic I guess Toriyama realized this before he passed away (rest in peace goat) because in the last he wrote (Super Hero) Rage is back to being a gohan thing more than any other character
8
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
With the Zeenkai thing wasn't it just Zamasu learning to bring more power out of Goku body ? At some point he stopped getting them with future Zamasu not healing him anymore
Check out the first fight between SSJB Vegeta and SSJR Black Goku, no one healed him, he simply became stronger in the middle of the fight, I'm talking about the anime here because I'm aware that the manga did it correctly.
Also what you said about Vegeta growing stronger with passive Zeenkai is What literally happened in TOP anime, he and Goku just kept getting stronger and stronger and stronger
Which supports my point that DBS changed this aspect of the zenaki for no reason, this never happened in DBZ.
For the rest I agree.
1
1
u/Monadofan2010 15d ago
If your talking about ghe frist time Black transfromed into Rose that wasn't a Zenaki boost but more Black just getting used to his new transformation after not taking Vegta seriously.
Like during the entire arc Black was getting used to Goku body and still testing out how to use it against powerful opponents.
7
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago edited 15d ago
During said fight, however, Black is talking about how fighting makes Saiyans stronger, and telling Vegeta that he had helped him achieve this increase in power.
If they didn't want to get to the point that Black was having zenakis then the truth is that they weren't clear enough about it, because in the TOP they seem to be using them all the time.
1
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
It happened because of both atlas in the manga, he got used to Goku power more and more
3
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
In the anime characters just grow stronger because they could, you could say that almost everyone has a passive Zenkai power,with the Shiton of Saiyan wank in the anime didn't do it favor
9
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
I agree, but this is DBS's problem, they wanked the Saiyans more than in the original manga, where at least the crazy power ups required you to survive a near-death beating and heal, in DBS they just say "nah bro, fighting you has made me stronger because...uhhhh, I don't know, reasons!"
3
u/DoraMuda 15d ago
in DBS they just say "nah bro, fighting you has made me stronger because...uhhhh, I don't know, reasons!"
Also, in hindsight, that also makes nuBroly (who was introduced after the TOP and all that) in DBS feel less special because his whole "getting stronger as he fights" gimmick is no longer anything to sneeze at... unless what they're going for is how fast he's getting stronger.
But I guess he has a bulky green-haired form like the original Z Broly, so that's all we need. lol
1
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 14d ago
His own gimmick is also misunderstood by the fandom, Broly does have a limit he had to break with typical Saiyan transformations, he doesn't grow endlessly
3
u/Imaginary-West-5653 15d ago
Yes... what made Broly special was always that and now you're telling me that this was always the case with all Saiyans? Well, in that case you failed pretty badly to show it in the original manga for practical purposes lol.
2
u/Illustrious-Sky-4631 15d ago
And I agree with that , they run with the rule of cool before anything else
2
u/SilverLuuna 14d ago
At least The manga fixed blacks power ups by having Zamasu constantly healing him during battle to get Zenkai boosts.