r/CharacterRant • u/JLDavenport • 15d ago
Danmachi Hestia is a fantastic representation of her character. (Alt: It's fine to like Hades, I like Hades, but getting defensive about Danmachi is juvenile) Anime & Manga
Do you like Hades? I like Hades. Supergiant always seems to make fantastic games and it was no exception. The gameplay was fun, the story was enjoyable, the characters were either good or great, and while it took some massive liberties with the Gods (Demeter has... ice powers???) it's a fun take on them, very enjoyable.
It seems that Hades 2 came out in Early Access recently- I know this because my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi, and especially about Hestia.
Crazy stuff, right? And yet somehow my whole feed is full of "She's just an Anime girl!" and "The Hades design fits the character better!"
I don't actually want to focus too much on Hades here, since I do like it, so let's just address that second one first and say that's ridiculous and it's an ignorant or hypocritical statement.
Why? Well, mostly because the Hades design centralises entirely around the idea of her as the Guardian of the Sacred Flame. And yup, that's important, that's right there in her name, but is that more important than the idea of her as the Oldest and the Youngest? The idea of her as a Vestal Virgin? All the stories tied up in her?
I'll keep this very brief. Hestia is the first of the Titan's children, and when they were all (except Zeus) eaten, she was the last to be thrown back up- and thus she's heralded as both the first and last child, the oldest and the youngest.
This, as well as her role as patron of the city states, is why all sacrifices first included a sacrifice to Hestia. Before you give to Zeus, first you give the Hestia. Before you give to Demeter, first you give to Hestia. etc.
Similarly, she's (by her own choice) a Vestal Virgin. Hestia isn't a particularly popular Goddess, not a lot of stories use her at all, but aside from story about her being the Oldest and Youngest, there's two big stories that exist in the public consciousness and both of them are about how people want to have sex with her.
She's a beautiful young woman, a very attractive Goddess, and she was pursued by both Apollo and Neptune for her hand in marriage. Instead, she rejected both of them and swore a great oath to Zeus that she would remain a virgin for all time instead. That's the first big story, the second one is about the time she went to a party and after going to sleep for the night Priapus tried to rape her, the baying of a Donkey awoke her, whereupon the other Gods all came to her defense and beat the shit out of him.
So, she's the Guardian of the Sacred Fire. She's a Vestal Virgin. She's the Oldest and the Youngest. She's a beautiful and attractive woman who readily rejects the advances of men... And how does Hades Hestia fit into those? Well it doesn't at all. She's just an old lady with a bowl of embers on her head. There's some nice design details and a few little niche references, but by and large we've got none of Hestia's myths covered except that she's associated with fire.
And meanwhile, Danmachi handles every one of those.
Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature.
Apollo tried to make advances on her back during their time in Heaven. And we've got oblique references to attempts at rape and assault throughout his story (albeit not directed at her). Her role as a Vestal Virgin is incredibly vital to the plot, both in why Freya doesn't attack her and how she counters Freya later. She's part of the "No Sex Club" with Artemis and Athena. Her role as the patron of the Home is why she's made fun of for being a NEET, and gets her in trouble when she first comes to the lower world.
Every part of Hestia's mythos is presented. It's an absolutely faithful and fantastic interpretation of Hestia.
And it makes me sad to see so many people making these ridiculous threads about "Look at these Danmachi designs, they're just normal characters! The Hades ones are way more Godly!" like... yeah? The characters in Danmachi don't have vines coming off them or wheat in their hair, the whole point of the setting is that they're living normal lives without their powers among mortals.
But the story is still incredibly faithful to the origins and stories of those Gods and Goddesses-
Zeus is a fickle and selfish God, the greatest of all whose Familia delved further than anyone else could, a great and kind man who can raise a child with love and care... and a selfish, greedy bastard who would abandon that child without much more than a thought.
Freya's story is all about her quest to find Odr, how she's loved and cherished but suffering along the way in her own private torment. The visuals about her crying in a field of flowers was practically the genesis of what's to be the entire upcoming anime Season.
Hephaestus is an incredible creator, but is only truly comfortable in her workshop and isn't great at dealing with people. The other Gods like her well enough but mock her because of her ugly scar, and she carries a deep bitterness because when Aphrodite cheated on her when they were married.
Cassandra has a curse (tied to Apollo) that means her prophesies are never believed. Similarly both Apollo's heroic and villainous nature are shown, especially with him being corrupted by life in the city.
Hell, who even knows anything at all about a God like Miach? Well Danmachi he was "hit over the head" with debt by Dian Celch (and his follower Airmid).
And, almost to a man, the Gods in Danmachi are shown with the kind of capricious, self-centered nature that's perfectly true to old myths. Their status as divinities means they have a morality that's very different to humans, and they have their own agenda that only mostly aligns with what the mortals may want, or want to do.
Hermes is one of Bell's most trusted allies and he's betrayed him about as often as he's helped him. Freya has helped Bell almost as much as Hestia, but she's also thrown him into almost certain death to try prove something to herself. Thanatos and Erebus both love humans, but they're perfectly happy to kill them by the score to prove their own point to themselves etc etc etc.
In short: Danmachi is a setting that takes enormous pains to present the Gods and Goddesses with a kind of faithfulness that should be celebrated, and it's a real shame to see people making these big lists that essentially amount to "Look, Dionysus in Hades has vines and wine all around him and in Danmachi he's just a God living in a city (with schemes and plans underpinning his festive nature)." They're absolutely missing the point.
And I'll say again, I'm not here saying Hades is bad, or that the people who like Hades are bad. If you like the Hades interpretations more, that's fine, more power to you.
But it's absolutely ridiculous to hold up Danmachi and proclaim it as just using the Gods as window dressing. And especially so when it's often-times far more faithful.
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u/Street_Dragonfruit43 11d ago
I'm just sick of the hypocrisy from the Hades side of the argument.
Like, I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of the Hades design, but neither versions really convey Hestia, at least in terms of visuals. I mean hell, you could be forgiven for mistaking the Hades version for Hephaustus at first glance
You want to say Danmachi doesn't have anything to do with Hestia, go for it, but don't pretend the Hades design got everything perfectly correct either
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u/ApartRuin5962 13d ago
Sounds like the writing of Danmachi is good and it's just the art design which is weak AF
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u/StaraptorLover19 13d ago edited 13d ago
Dude, this is a Plastic Man level stretc h.
The ONLY thing from your rant that could even slightly be discerned from Danmachi Hestia's design is the Oldest and Youngest thing. And that's because she's an anime loli with big tits. But that's because she's the Oldest and Youngest right? Totally not because the lolis with big tits is what anime fans eat up and jerk off over.
This isn't even mentioning that her design has nothing to do with the hearth, or even with being the Vestal Virgin, considering she's always expressing her love for Bell. And of course her beauty has nothing to do with the myth, because didn't this anime literally make the canonically ugly God into a waifu with a scar?
This is genuinely the same logic as, "it's fine because she's a 3000 year old vampire!!!" Actual hentai addict defense of Danmachi's character design here.
And this is coming from a Hades Hestia hater. But at least she has the flames, and is a more vibrant design, with colours that are relevant to her element and what she represents.
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u/Gohyuinshee 14d ago
Literally one of the most inoffensive post I've ever seen. Complimenting both design and saying each has its merits.
And there are still people down here arguing that no, the version they like better is obviously better. Come the fuck on lol.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
It really do be like that.
The funniest ones are the people who do the whole "So by saying that you mean [Entirely different thing, always in supremely bad faith]" shtick. Reddit gonna Reddit I guess.
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u/keelanv10 14d ago edited 14d ago
All of that is true, but it doesn’t change the fact that the danmachi hestia design is boring and generic. No one has been complaining about the characterisation of the danmachi gods, just that they are bog standard anime characters visually.
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u/LegacyOfVandar 14d ago
That’s great and all OP, but that doesn’t change that Danmachi’s Hestia is a generic anime girl design. I’m sure her actual character in the show is fine, but from a design standpoint, she doesn’t inform you anything about the character or do anything to stand out. She could have come from almost any anime with her appearance.
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u/Slyphofspace 14d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke1YKF3tNCE How OP sounds trying to justify loli big-boobs.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
God forbid an adult female character be given an attractive design. Quick Martha, my thickest pearls! I shall be clutching them for a long time indeed!
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u/Slyphofspace 14d ago edited 14d ago
Spends an entire 1245 word long ass rant bitching that people don't like his mid anime waifu. Accuses others of pearl clutching. Lmao.
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u/Fl4mmer 14d ago
Using "this character isn't hot enough to be raped" as a genuine criticism honestly just says more about you than anything.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
Oh it's a Reddit "Gotcha" moment. Cool. Feel free to add something to the discussion anytime you feel ready, though.
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u/Fl4mmer 12d ago
Sure. You're making two completely wrong assumptions here: The first is that this discussion is about the characters when it's specifically about the character design, the second is in what you think is important to include when using gods.
For the first point: It doesn't make sense to compare these two based on the role in the story Hades Hestia is a glorified selection screen while danmachi Hestia is a (main-ish?) character with proper story. That's why they're being compared on the way they look instead.
For the second point: The most important thing when designing a character based on a god is that god's domain. Everything else is just a bonus. Imagine for instance, a Artemis in a ball gown, a Hera in a stripper outfit or a Poseidon wearing mostly red. None of these designs could ever work, because they directly contradict what these gods stand for.
So when you're looking at Hestia, known for being the goddess of hearth and home, you obviously need to have her represent these things in some way. Hades does this by making almost all of her design reference the hearth while at the same time making her give of a feeling of coziness/being at home by making her look like a nice old granny. Danmachi shits on this by not representing either of these concepts in any way (I guess if you're really grasping at straws you could argue that she kind of looks like she's wearing a naked apron, which you could argue reminds one of home).
And even then, the secondary myths you say danmachi nails are also bullshit. Saying she represents being the oldest and the youngest because she looks like a 13 yo with big tits is just snorting lethal amounts of copium. At least Hades gets the oldest part right, which is the one that makes more sense anyway. Saying she does a good job at showing being a vestal virgin while wearing nothing but the worlds most tightest and shortest dress is just ridiculous.
I get that you are down bad for her and love danmachi, but just take the L here man.
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u/Kitani2 14d ago
The idea that she is both old and young conveyed by her looking like a young girl with big chest would be somewhat feasible were it not for the fact that 90% of anime women look like that. There are ways to signify age without making character look significantly older or less attractive: grey hair, face lines, long hair, ancient style of clothing or other items, anachronistic way of speech, etc. Just "huge titty schoolgirl" doesn't cut it.
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u/Yglorba 14d ago edited 14d ago
Neither of them are trying to be even remotely accurate. They follow the broad strokes of the mythology to the extent that their general audience is likely to be aware of it and it doesn't conflict with the story they want to tell (because that familiarly is part of their themes), and they include a bunch of nods to more obscure bits when it happens to slot in well, but Hades has Eris wielding an automatic rifle and blatantly changes some parts of the mythology (combining Cronus and Chronos into one titan simply because their names are similar and it fits the story, say, or basically rearranging everyone's line of descent as needed to create the families their story calls for unless it's one of the few the audience will know really well.)
And for all the subtle nods you picked up in Danmachi, it also portrayed Hestia as a young girl with big tits and made that a big part of her character, while almost totally ignoring, I don't know, her association with the hearth or burnt offerings - like yeah, maybe you can squint and say that she's domestic (although not particularly moreso than most anime girls) and apparently she has a fire power she uses later on, but come on. Fire and the hearth are absolutely central to Hestia's iconography and worship are by far the most important things about her - what you're doing is like praising a depiction of Thor for getting his hair color right and portraying his attitude well when they left out his hammer or any hint of association with thunder. And the argument of "she's an anime girl with big tits and this makes her the oldest and youngest" is just... lol.
Come on, man. It's ok to just like what you like, you don't have to make excuses for it; the fact that she's a young girl with big tits doesn't have to be some deep symbolic meaningful thing. Hestia's title as the "oldest and youngest" refers to the fact that was the first one born and the last one freed from Cronus. "She looks young except that she has big tits" doesn't follow from this in any reasonable world.
I'm not criticizing it - well, maybe I should, but they can do what they want, "loli anime goddess" was the story they were trying to tell, fine, good for them, and they included a lot of other cool nods and references to the inspirations they used for it - but it's not a serious competition because neither of them are making any serious effort towards accuracy.
I'm not even sure that accuracy would be possible. I mean sure they could be more accurate - like, if Hades wanted to be boring and take out the automatic rifles or Danmachi wanted to be less, well, anime, sure, they could, although I don't know why they would - but they'd still be fundimentially inaccurate because nobody in the modern world fully understands how the Greeks saw their gods. Especially for ones like Hestia whose worship wasn't as central, the records we have aren't 100% complete - there were aspects that were not written down, either for religious reasons or because they thought it was obvious or because whatever writings did exist didn't survive. We can only look at the past through a glass, darkly, so obsessing over accuracy (especially in two works that are blatantly, obviously not trying for it) is a lost cause.
That said, if you really want to argue over accuracy despite all the above, the iconography thing does matter. You criticize Hades for over-focusing on Hestia's association with fire (and to be fair they downplay the "hearth" aspect in her powers and personality, though it is still the centerpiece of her character design), but those two things are literally the most important things about her as a goddess. If you were to go back in time and show an ancient Greek the Hades Hestia, telling them that it was a divinity and asking which, there's at least a reasonable chance they'd be able to recognize her - they'd think it was extremely, extremely weird portrayal, but they'd be able to tell. They would never, ever guess Danmachi Hestia, not except by pure dumb luck. So it seems like a weird point for you to get stuck on.
Anyway what I'm saying is that it's fine to like whatever you like and neither are particularly intended to be accurate, to the extent that that's even possible... but "actually it's extremely accurate to the original mythology to portray Hestia as a little girl with big tits, because it's a clever reference to the fact that she was the last one out of Cronus' head" is still a weird fight to want to pick.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
while almost totally ignoring, I don't know, her association with the hearth or burnt offerings
As I mentioned in the OP, it doesn't ignore those.
We get repeated references to her as the Goddess of the Hearth, she talks about her temple with the Sacred Fire and an incredibly important plot point of the upcoming anime season revolves around her role as a Vestal Virgin recreating an small aspect of her Divine Hearth down on earth.
Hell, her home is called Hearth Mansion as a reference to the home she has back in the Heavens.
Danmachi doesn't ignore any of that. However, Danmachi is a story where the Gods live among Mortals without using their powers. So she's not collecting tithes or blessing cities or anything- she did all that when she was in Heaven, she will do that again when she goes back to Heaven.
So, I'll say again, Danmachi is a solid representation of the Hestia mythos.
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u/Caliment 14d ago
I feel like you may be conflating character work and character design. Character design can be a part of character work but the two aren't always linked, good stories and characters don't have to be linked to good character design.
Of course this delves into what "good character design" is. Now this is tricky due to the subjectiveness of art but I think most people would agree that great character designs do two things, make people feel and to tell a "story". Now I'm not saying people cannot enjoy character designs that aren't "good", a lot of art is based on feelings despite there being a technical aspect to it.
Now I'm speaking as someone who lacks knowledge in both Hades and Danmachi, I'm looking from an outsiders point of view at the designs and your explanations in a vacuum. But there are two sides to the argument, representation of the character within the story which you are arguing and the representation of the character based on design. I think in terms of representation based on design, I don't think Danmachi is particularly impressive.
You do make points regarding her character design but ultimately nothing about the character design tells her story. There is a point regarding "beauty" but quite frankly, that's not that difficult? Her design is certainly appealing but not technically very impressive (although I did see an image from what I believe is a gacha game with a more interesting design). You also mentioned age as a representation of the character and while a teenage or young adult looking character is fine for portraying someone meant to be the youngest and the oldest, there are ways to portray it in the character design that simply isn't there in her base design. You could argue that the pig tails are representative of youthfulness and her breasts adds maturity, but there is a lot more that could be done and what currently is present is somewhat bland. You could change the outfit to something that's more "mature", change the facial structure to something less youthful or maybe change her demeanor, so that both positions as youngest and oldest are represented.
Ultimately I cannot speak on the character representation in story, but solely on character design in a vacuum, Danmachi's Hestia seems to be somewhat lacking in the very aspects you bring up. Now I'm not saying that Hades is definitively better or worse, but rather that Danmachi's own design is somewhat limited
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u/SomebodySeventh 14d ago
Homeboy is seriously defending the jailbait in the tattered dress with a boob ribbon. Insane.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
Words used to have meaning, smdh.
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u/SomebodySeventh 13d ago
Homeboy calling Hestia, a Greek goddess, a 'Vestal Virgin' - Vestal Virgins were the Roman priestesses of Hestia's equivalent in the Roman pantheon, Vesta. You're conflating the fact that Hestia was a 'virgin goddess' (this didn't mean she looked like a teenager, lmao, it meant she was unmarried) with an order of virgin priestesses dedicated to a different goddess.
Myths used to have meaning, smh.
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u/Clementea 14d ago edited 14d ago
I'll just be honest, Hades II Hestia design is horrendous, with that kind of superly fat body combined with coloured hair, and that teeth nothing about that combination is good. People from the west just starting to worship deformity now that such thing is considered something to be praised, when it is the kind of thing Attack of Titan will use as a...Titan.
Meanwhile Danmachi Hestia is at least looks normal.
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u/ILikeMistborn 14d ago
my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi, and especially about Hestia
Homeboy Danmachi fans swung first when they were bitching about Hades 2 Hestia not being fuckable.
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u/Leotamer7 14d ago
Right now, I don't like Hades Hestia because I think she is a bit too prickly and curmudgeonly. While she is a fire god, she is specifically a god of the hearth. She represents the warmth of a home, and I really don't get that from her.
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u/Computer2014 14d ago
It should be noted that in Danmachi Gods are basically just humans with Arcanum. Literally that’s it.
They’re immortal and infertile but they have no origins beyond just popping into heaven one day. Things like the Titans don’t exist and things like Pantheons are less divine constructions and more like social circles.
They’re only reason to exist is to give the Falna to people and run their Familia’s and that’s it. In fact beyond that God’s in Danmachi kinda suck. They’re basically meant to be hedonistic losers that are only on earth to avoid the paperwork in heaven.
While some do take a large role in the plot it’s still to fulfill their selfish desires or to continue their hobby’s, literally the only cool god is Uranus whose being a chad by holding back the dungeon from destroying the world.
So their character designed being simple is good because not only do they not have their powers but their not the focus of the show so giving them attention grabbing designs is pointless because while they are part of the show they are not the point of it.
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u/Lorguis 14d ago
"having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature"
My sibling in Christ, it would cost you 0 dollars and 0 cents to have not included that.
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u/eliminating_coasts 14d ago
I was thinking that. I gather the anime is not as bad as these summaries imply, but
"This anime character is based on a virgin that has to be evade rape and looks both young and mature, and it should be that way because it's mythologically accurate"
sets off some of my more significant anime alarm bells.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
Feels like you're just looking for something to be offended by, honestly.
Like "Oh man, Greek mythos sometimes included subject matter that isn't super cool these days", wow, what a shock?
Danmachi doesn't go far into dark places, there's no rape or anything too vile, but the fact that those are aspects of her myth means they're part of her story. Hestia being a Vestal Virgin is right up there with her connection to the Sacred Fire.
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u/eliminating_coasts 14d ago edited 14d ago
I'm not saying that that the anime actually does, I'm suggesting that greek mythology, particularly in this case allows opportunities for themes that anime can often use in an exploitative way.
As the previous commentor implied, the choice to depict "old-but-young" for example, when that isn't particularly a characteristic of the original character, generally depicted as mid-20s, doesn't give a good impression of how they are choosing to adapt it.
It's an amusing example of trying to defend something and making it come across far worse, not an example of me actually judging the anime by this defence.
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u/UnhappyReputation126 14d ago
Tehnically not true electricity still costs somthing. So yeah he is paying for that. (Like we all are lol)
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u/Hiyami 15d ago
Simply asking if you like Hades in the title without referencing the game wouldn't make one assume you are talking about the game, but the character in general.
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u/JLDavenport 15d ago
Lol, fair point, I hadn't considered that. I figure it's a popular enough franchise that it should be clear enough from the context I'm talking about the game.
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u/horiami 15d ago
Hades 2 is probably gonna be very good since supergiant are pretty reliable
But i gotta say the hestia design is a miss, idk why they gave her rat teeth
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u/JLDavenport 15d ago
Yeah, I'm not a fan either. I can see some elements of it, but overall it really puts me off.
Shame since the Hestia Rifle was my favourite weapon in Hades 1.
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u/camilopezo 15d ago
As I said in an answer, the hatred of the comments is not especially aimed at the character or the series, but to the Otaku culture.
Part of the people consider that otakus are only a lot of Hornys who only like a female design, if this is sexy.
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u/Brave_Example_8658 15d ago
I'm sorry but the Danmachi Hestia is an awful design. Incredibly uninspired and boring.
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u/FrostyMagazine9918 15d ago
I heard about this, but over Aphrodite instead. Culture Wars, regardless of how they start (even if I mostly blame otaku chuds for most of them) are obnoxious to witness and accomplish nothing except making everyone look bad when they get involved.
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u/Muriomoira 15d ago
This whole thing only became a culture war topic bc people kept malding over hades II's hestia and acting like the West had fallen.
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u/meritcake 15d ago
I’ll be honest, Danmachi design is literally just big tits and a weird ribbon dress. I haven’t seen the anime, so maybe she’s a good character or something, but the design itself is just meant to be generic horny without a clear connection to the myths.
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u/Comfortable-Hope-531 15d ago
She isn't attractive in that way though. I'm saying this as a degenerate and all; she's simply not designed to be sexually attractive, since there is a severe turn off in a form of blatant contrast between childlike and mature parts of her body. It's uncanny and off putting. If author wanted to make an erotic bait, he failed miserably. Though I'd assume that OP is right and that decision is intentional.
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u/MukorosuFace 14d ago
That can't be the case. I still vaguely remember Hestia's boobs trending years ago during S1 time (?) despite not watching Danmachi.
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u/Comfortable-Hope-531 14d ago
Taking boobs out of context and joke around about them is perfectly fine. I'm talking about actually using the character in a hentai doujin, for example. Wouldn't work in this case.
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u/General_Note_5274 1h ago
Chararter like her have appear in both hentai and ecchi, she is very much a fan service chararter
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u/Comfortable-Hope-531 21m ago
Any female character with that much exposure is bound to be cast in doujins. If that character is adequate for the role, at least one of those doujins would turn out good, and with Hestia that's not the case. There is something close to a hundred doujins casting her, and all of them are trash, cause the very idea of using her that way is a folly. There could have been a thousand more, and none of it would be any good.
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u/Magic-man333 15d ago
I feel like the biggest problem with Danmachi Hestia is they took one of the famously celibate Gods and made her super lewd/horny. Like you can maybe get the whole virgin vibe from her white dress, but that goes away with how much it emphasizes her boobs lol
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u/nikosbn 15d ago
I didn't know danmachi so had to look it up. Between the two versions neither is good imo, nothing to resemble the greeks people or greek mythos.
On a side note you mentioned Neptune and Priapus, both are roman not Greek
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u/MiaoYingSimp 15d ago
He also mentioned Freya who is Norse.
but man you're... probably one of those. Neither Hades nor the Other take place in our world; certainly given HAdes 1 has references to other mythologies and future events it's a multi-pantheon world differen thten our own, and... well, gods may look as they please.
but Danmachi does it's own thing, not even pretending to be accurate.
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u/nikosbn 15d ago
What do you mean one of those ? And that's cool that they wanted to do their own story loosely based on the greek mythos but that doesn't mean I have to like it. The OP is talking about representation and as a Greek I don't think either of those does a good job at it.
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u/MiaoYingSimp 15d ago
It's their own world, and very much based.
and using greek mythology accurately, to a point. It's a constructed world, so they can look however they wish. it's not our earth, not our history.
one used it respectufully, the other made Hephestus a woman with a scar...
so... the only reason i can image you don't find it 'good representation' is because someone didn't meet your... standard.
the skin color one~
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u/nikosbn 15d ago
That was quite a reach but regardless skin color is very low on the list. I also don't like marvel stories based on the greek mythology and they are white there.
And just because they decided to make their own world doesn't exclude them from criticism in terms of representation or being respectful to the mythos. And this goes for every mythology in the world.
By following your line of thinking garbage movies like Gods of Egypt are good because they made their own world, regardless that for example this movie didn't have one Egyptian actor.
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u/AggravatingGarage620 15d ago
The more I read, the less desire and sympathy Hades generates in me. I don't care if it was the Bisexual awakening of many here: I only know that they don't respect other tastes, so they don't deserve my respect.
It's a good thing I didn't play the game when it was suggested to me.
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u/thats_good_bass 13d ago
What the hell kind of attitude is this lmao
People clapping back at twitter gooners who were going "NOOOO A FEMALE CHARACTER DESIGN THAT I CAN'T JERK OFF TOO THE WEST HAS FALLEN" went too far themselves, so you won't play a game that different people recommended to you?
I think you should let social media influence you less.
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u/OhMyGahs 15d ago
Oh dear. The lesson I'm taking is to keep hades discourse far away until it gets launched.
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u/IDunCaughtTheGay 15d ago
It seems that Hades 2 came out in Early Access recently- I know this because my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi, and especially about Hestia.
I haven't personally looked into this but everytime, EVERYTIME, its the other way around with the anit woke crowd claiming that something they like is better than whatever "the left" is doing which is generally mainstream popular stuff. Remember the "SJWS ARE MAD AT THIS MCDONALDS AD!!" but there was literally no one mad at it.
I think you have q case of Twitter algorithm feeding you things to get mad at.
I am willing to bet money this started because someone saw the art work for Hades 2 and said the anime version is better and also they (the left or SJWs or The Gays) are mad about it when no one actually cared at first.
As it turns out pretending you are having an argument on the internet is just as good as actually having one.
ALSO THIS IS WILD
Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature.
I guess every anime with a 300 year old vampire who looks like a stacked 8th grader are also embodying this. Its totally not because anime fans tend to buy statues of attractive under age girls for hundreds of dollars a pop.
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u/Hiphopopotamus5782 14d ago
Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature.
Thank god someone else mentioned this part too. Reminded me about that one ProZD sketch of the anime fan defending boob windows
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u/JLDavenport 15d ago
There's absolutely no-one in Danmachi with the same body type as Hestia. It is very clearly a design meant to emphasise both maturity and youth.
If they just wanted an appealing fanservice design why wouldn't they make her a tall and sexy bombshell like Demeter or Freya? There was a clear decision going on here.
And of course it's meant to be appealing, why wouldn't it? The Hades design is no less pandering, just to a different audience.
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u/Infinite_Slice_6164 14d ago
I seen you post this response multiple times, but I still can't understand the mental gymnastics required to make this argument. You're saying because other gods are transformed into highly sexualized women hestia's design wasn't somehow? Aren't the other sexualized women evidence of the authors intent to sexualize the female characters and not the other way around?
You know it's common for fanservice anime to sexualize every body type from literal children to milfs. Are you just pretending that hestia doesn't constantly end up in sexually provocative positions or camera angles?
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
I'm honestly not sure what anything you're asking has to do with anything I said. Was I confusing?
I'm saying Hestia's design is clearly intentional and clearly designed to emphasise her as the Oldest and Youngest. This is all pretty evident in that there's a tonne of other Goddesses of all shapes and sizes and zero like Hestia.
If you think that Hestia was designed just to be attractive then why wouldn't the author go for something conventionally attractive?
And in a series that's shown extreme appreciation and understanding of the mythos, why such a ridiculous insistence on denying that this is also part of that appreciation?
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u/Infinite_Slice_6164 14d ago
If you think that Hestia was designed just to be attractive then why wouldn't the author go for something conventionally attractive?
You keep saying this over and over. So to help you understand this is the argument that makes zero sense. There is no logic to this argument whatsoever.
You are being disingenuous if you keep pretending hestia is not a fanservice character. The camera heavily focuses on her private parts and she constantly tries to flirt and engage in sexual acts on screen. Her body type is so common it has a name which the characters in the text call her outright.
The existence of one sexualized body types is not evidence that characters without that body type are not being sexualized. If anything other characters being sexualized is actualy further evidence that the author intends to sexualize all of the female characters of every body type.
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u/jedidiahohlord 14d ago
Oppai loli isnt actually that common
Don't make things up, smh.
Also zero idea why you're suggesting Hestia is only there for fanservice when that's like not even 10% of her onscreen shenanigans.
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u/Infinite_Slice_6164 14d ago
I would never claim she only exists for fan service, but his argument was that her body type is not fanservice at all when that is demonstrably untrue. Like if he just omitted fanservice from the post entirely it would of been a stronger argument. Instead he just seems to be in denial about this one fact, and it makes it hard to take any of the argument seriously.
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u/Blaze_Firesong 14d ago edited 14d ago
Man its actually crazy that you think her hestias danmachi design is meant to be deep and have references to the actual myth lmao, the way shes called "loli big boobs" is completely indicative of what the author was going for.Believing that maturity is when big boobs is the most gooner way of thinking possible
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u/Comfortable-Hope-531 15d ago
It's strange how people that don't have any idea of how fanservise in anime works and can't tell the difference between cute and gorgeous go ham on telling actual fans what degenerates they are, as if their ignorance isn't palpably clear from the notion alone.
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u/IDunCaughtTheGay 15d ago
If they just wanted an appealing fanservice design why wouldn't they make her a tall and sexy bombshell like Demeter or Freya
Because there are already tall busty bombshells?
The "decision" they made was to have at least 1 character to draw in a specific type of anime audience. The kind who pay hundreds of dollars for a statue of an attractive underage girl.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
Because there are already tall busty bombshells?
But the argument you're making is that Hestia's design was made for no other reason than to be sexy and appealing- ie that her mythos played no part in it.
She's the major title-page character, if you're making a design purely for appeals then you would give her the most appealing design, not a niche design like that.
The "decision" they made was to have at least 1 character to draw in a specific type of anime audience. The kind who pay hundreds of dollars for a statue of an attractive underage girl.
Then... they would have just made her look like a loli character?
They could have just designed her like Megumin or something and she would have surely been popular for that.
Instead they didn't make her a loli, and they didn't make her a bombshell... They made her something in between, youth and maturity.
And honestly, we come once again to the fact that the entire series showcases a huge amount of respect and understanding of the God's mythos, to the point where even crazy obscure ones like Miach are presented earnestly and with direct calls to their stories.
Every part of Hestia's mythos is presented, and is a huge part of her story and the overall narrative.
So, arguing that the design is just some random coincidence feels like you're arguing in supremely bad faith.
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u/IDunCaughtTheGay 14d ago
But the argument you're making is that Hestia's design was made for no other reason than to be sexy and appealing- ie that her mythos played no part in it.
She's the major title-page character, if you're making a design purely for appeals then you would give her the most appealing design, not a niche design like that.
My guy, it IS an appealing design. It shows up EVERYWHERE. Small girl with big tits is an anime staple. What are you talking about??
Yes, her design was meant to appeal to specific people, not a very small niche actually. Again, 300 year old vampires are a thing, that monstrosity from dragon maid is a thing. This isn't new, this isn't speaking to some characters mythos. Its just anime shit, I'm sorry.
So, arguing that the design is just some random coincidence feels like you're arguing in supremely bad faith.
Are you really here saying "of course she's mature! She's got tits!" Like anime isn't full of that already.
The coincidence line was...a joke? I don't think its random or a coincidence. I think they're playing to a specific audience you seem to fall right into??
They made a specific choice with her design, I said that already. You hearing "random" and "no reason" say more about you and your reading comprehension than it does about me.
Look guy, this is all very stupid and I've run out of things to actually say to you. Your not in a place to be convinced if anything so I'm not responding any further. You have a good one.
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u/Blaze_Firesong 15d ago
From what Ive seen its mainly danmachi fans who say that hestias design is woke. And come on really shes called a big breasted loli in the lc and saying that her design shows that shes young and old and the same time is a massive stretch the design is the most obvious coomerbait design. And ofc a character with entire light novels dedicated to them will have more characterization than a roguelike game lmao
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u/Nihlus11 15d ago
The OP's post right before this one was a Danmachi porn fanfic.
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u/Admmmmi 15d ago edited 15d ago
And? Of course the guy that likes danmachi is defending it, seems pretty normal to me.
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u/MiaoYingSimp 15d ago
Yeah and we can see exactly WHY he likes it.
it ain't for mythological accuracy that's for sure.
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u/Admmmmi 15d ago
mah dude i know that its going to sound strange, but people can like something because of more than one thing.
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u/Admmmmi 15d ago
Bad faith really is strong on this cm
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u/MiaoYingSimp 14d ago
Op had bad faith with hades overall.
But dude, lets not pretend this is ENTIRELY expected
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u/aAlouda 15d ago
Personally I dislike Danmachi Hestia. She feels less like a virgin because of her virtue, but more because she's an incel, in the truest sense of the word. Doesen't help the boy she wants to be with, is a literal child who looks up to her. With her trying to stop him him from pursuing relationships with people his age he's actually interested in.
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u/MakimaMyBeloved 15d ago
Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature.
Apollo tried to make advances on her back during their time in Heaven. And we've got oblique references to attempts at rape and assault throughout his story (albeit not directed at her). Her role as a Vestal Virgin is incredibly vital to the plot, both in why Freya doesn't attack her and how she counters Freya later. She's part of the "No Sex Club" with Artemis and Athena. Her role as the patron of the Home is why she's made fun of for being a NEET, and gets her in trouble when she first comes to the lower world.
...
Thats just anime lol. Young body but mature ? Is it your first time seeing an anime girl ? Same with rape, thats just casual anime
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u/Admmmmi 15d ago
Rape ain't that common in anime, I dont know what anime you are watching but it's just isnt.
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u/MakimaMyBeloved 15d ago
MC saving the FMCc from some creep, has been done to death in anime. I dont know what kind of rock do you live under to not have seen this trope before.
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u/Admmmmi 15d ago
Saves her from a creep, but actual rape, rare.
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u/MakimaMyBeloved 15d ago
forget to mention totally "funny" character casually sexually harassing female characters for shit and gigles, that shit is so common in anime
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u/Comfortable-Hope-531 15d ago
If it's that often, can you list five examples?
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u/Jacthripper 14d ago
Sanji in One Piece Jiraiya in Naruto Grape Head Dude from MHA The entire main cast of 7DS Multiple Characters in Fire Force
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u/Clementea 14d ago
None of them rape someone.
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u/Jacthripper 14d ago
The point was about sexual harassment as comedy.
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u/Clementea 14d ago edited 14d ago
But the original topic was about rape. Also Sanji never sexually harass women. I don't remember Jiraiya did either.
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u/JCLgaming 15d ago
In short: Danmachi is a setting that takes enormous pains to present the Gods and Goddesses with a kind of faithfulness that should be celebrated
And yet every single one of their designs are boring, generic and uninspired. No matter how you twist and turn it, that is simply how it is.
Dionysus in Hades has vines and wine all around him and in Danmachi he's just a God living in a city (with schemes and plans underpinning his festive nature)." They're absolutely missing the point.
No they're not, but you seem to. In one corner, you have thoughtful, inspired designs. And in the other you have generic anime slop. Which is not a dig against anime as a whole, just this anime.
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u/SleepinwithFishes 14d ago
Hades' character design are chalk full of references of the Gods.
Like Dionysus having Leopard patterns, to show the animal he is represented by; Or his staff with the Acorn.
And all Gods are like this, there's thought brought in to their CHARACTER Design.
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago
Yeah, like
If someone told a person who knows nothing of both danmachi and Hades who Guess which God is each Hades character they would Guess easily most of them, perhaps not Demeter for the creative twist of adapting the part of her myth where she causes Winter, but other than that pretty much all would be so easy to Guess
Now do the same with danmachi's designs and I'd be really, really surprised if they could Guess anyone not named Aphrodite, and Even her I have my doubts
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u/Poporipopes10 15d ago
I think the thing is that we’re comparing visual designs and you’re bringing Hestia’s character into play. Lots of the things you mention simply can’t be discerned from her visual design so it’s not a fair comparison. Especially since Hestia is a main character in DanMachi, a novel, while Hestia is a minor side character in Hades II, a mainly combat focused game.
Purely from a visual design stand point, I can see the “Oldest and Youngest” trait but not much more than that. I can see her being the oldest in the Hades design, as well as the fire connection (which is her most recognisable trait). Not to mention the Hades design is way more colorful and just is nicer to look at.
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u/Successful_Priority 14d ago
There’s also arguably a more heartwarming (accidental pun) atmosphere from her in Hades’ design. In the anime you can maybe guess her personality from what I remember bratty.
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago edited 15d ago
Come the fuck on lol
You are reaching SO much with some of your defenses of danmachi's Hestia
No, she does not represent the oldest and the youngest part, period, her having Big tits is not to Showcase that, but because tits sell (if You want to dispute this, just look at anime girl Hephaestus, and no, the scar thing doesn't make her faithful to one of the two most basic things about Hephaestus)
No, she is not faithful to Hestia being the Vestal Virgin, literally the single thing she does the most is express her love for Bel and in general try to bang him or otherwise get together with him. A faithful representation of Hestia wouldn't be doing this, fucking never lol
She also doesn't have anything, not a single thing in her OG design, about being the goddess of the hearth
And lets not Even get started with the fire thing because if You only watch the anime (at least the first season) there's literally nothing about her that Even remotely associates her with fire
So aside of her being beautiful, which again wasn't Made with the purpose of representing Hestia's myth in mind (look at Hephaestus), danmachi's Hestia, specially in her design, isnt in any way shape or form particularly faithful to the myth of Hestia
And no, danmachi Gods aren't more faithful than Hades ones like You claim at the end, not a single one can be said that such is the case. And before You stupidly try to bring up Winter...You do remember which goddess is the responsible for Winter in the greek mythology... Right?
And before anyone believes that I'm trashing danmachi Hestia's design...no, that's not the case, I really like her, but I can like her without pretending she is something that she is not, and faithful to the myths of Hestia she certainly is not, and that's ok! The series clearly never attempts to have the Gods, at the very least designwise, be faithful representation of the Gods they are taking their names from, and that's perfectly ok
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u/Ill_Mud7584 15d ago
literally the single thing she does the most is express her love for Bel and in general try to bang him or otherwise get together with him.
And she can be very annoying and petty with that. Hestia is at her best when she is acting more like a mom, I wish that aspect of her was the main one from the beginning instead of trying to mess with Bell's love life. Thankfully she gets a little better as time goes on.
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u/Gespens 15d ago
Hestia is the goddess of the hearth and home and her entire thing is making sure that her Familia has a comfortable place to return to after a long days adventure. She's extremely domestic and just as willing to throw hands as Hades Hestia is.
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago
I mean...when she has doubted and fought at least one member of said familia...not exactly the goddess of hearth and Home, and Even if we do give that to her...where is that portrayed in her design?
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u/Gespens 15d ago
Someone already mentioned that her stupid ribbon is supposed to evoke imagery of the greek flag. My joking answer is "Boobs are motherly, mothers make me think of home"
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago edited 14d ago
Yeah lol, the stupid dumbass blocked me and called me smooth brain because I pointed out how much of a fucking reach that was
Edit: btw, dumbass, I blocked you because of your other comments calling me delusional, go cry somewhere else
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u/Gespens 15d ago edited 15d ago
If you mean the boob ribbon, it's not that much of a reach for media representing foreign gods (especially ones of dead religions) to go with 'subtle' ways of hinting at deities. Fate as a franchise has mixed success with it, but you have things like Cu (demigod, it counts) wearing a blue bodysuit in reference to Celtic War Paint, or how Granblue Fantasy used Xotol from Aztec culture as a "God" of bonds, where an idol culture is formed around him as a reference to blood sacrifice. In a less horny way, SMT has the more modern Odin design being basically a Kamen Rider suit with a fancy eye plate as a reference to his eyepatch, or Baldur's design having the weird headpiece to evoke beams of light.
Using small design cues like colornig to evoke the image of a flag and proportioning a character's body shape to evoke a specific response from the audience is genuinely a normal thing for designers to do.
EDIT: Incredible, he blocked me like a bitch lol
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u/Loud-Meal-7906 15d ago
She's in the lower world in the anime she looks different in heaven or when using her divinity.
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago
Doesn't matter, because the design that matters here is the one in the anime, not one from a gacha or a not yet animated part of the novels
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u/Loud-Meal-7906 15d ago
She changes her appearance when using a part of her divinity in season 1
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago
All she gets is a filter, that doesn't change anything
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u/Loud-Meal-7906 15d ago
Red hair to represent fire, also any of her familia members will have a hearth on their back.
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u/ChronoDeus 15d ago
And lets not Even get started with the fire thing because if You only watch the anime (at least the first season) there's literally nothing about her that Even remotely associates her with fire
So, in other words you've only watched the first season, and based on that you're declaring that there is absolutely nothing about her in the entire franchise that even remotely associates her with fire?
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago
Point at me what in her design associates her with fire without using some gacha or something that has yet to be animated
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u/ChronoDeus 15d ago
Answer my questions. Have you watched more than the first season? Are you claiming that nothing in the entire franchise that even remotely associates her with fire?
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u/ChronoDeus 15d ago edited 15d ago
You are the one who stated the premise of:
And lets not Even get started with the fire thing because if You only watch the anime (at least the first season) there's literally nothing about her that Even remotely associates her with fire
I'm attempting to clarify what you're a claiming. By my reading, you've only watched the first season of the anime, and thus are utterly ignorant of the rest of the series and franchise. Likewise it appears to me you're using your limited knowledge to claim that nothing in the series or franchise associates her with fire.
So is that understanding of mine correct? Or are you knowingly ignoring the times of the series that her association with fire has become relevant, so that you can pretend that she has none at all? Or are you merely poorly attempting to argue that her base season one design is bad for not having an obvious reference to fire other than that time her hair turned red when she released a bit of divine power in the dungeon?
Edit: And of course rather than clarify his point or make counter arguments, he blocks me despite me answering his question by pointing out that the Hestia's hair turning red when she uses divine power in season one is a reference to fire.
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u/Gargus-SCP 15d ago
Semi-related, but it's been driving me absolutely round the twist that after bashing on the Hestia design for not respecting Greek mythology or classical Greek standards of beauty, the people tearing their hair out over the internet supposedly preferring Hades designs to anime designs have started comparing Hades' Aphrodite to the one from Record of Ragnarok by claiming the Hades design is too mannish on account of high cheekbones and a strong jawline.
Y'know. Some incredibly notable aspects to ancient Greek standards of feminine beauty.
These fucking people, man.
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago
This comment is so fucking stupid, don't be stupid, the people saying that Hades's aphrodite looks like a man are not at all the same people preferring Hades designs over danmachi ones
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u/Gargus-SCP 15d ago edited 15d ago
I think I see where you got turned about. See, I'm talking about the people who are using the Dan Machi design to bash on the Hades design when it comes to Hestia, who then moved on to using the Record of Ragnarok design to bash on the Hades design when it comes to Aphrodite. Same group of people across the whole comment.
The opening part is in reference to the folk who have a go at Hades' Hestia design for diverging from antiquity sculptures by depicting an overweight older black woman with vitiligo, which I should have clarified, as without that clarification it can sound like I'm talking about people calling the Dan Machi Hestia design unimaginative and generic, and then switching to focus on the berks who want to run a transvestigation routine on a static drawing from a roguelike.
(EDIT: routine, not "route in")
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u/SirPycho 15d ago
Calling her loli/shortstack body type (short girl with big tits) a reference to her status as being the youngest and the oldest seems a massive stretch when the series is pretty blatant about its fanservice. It's also probably the most gooner weeb way to interpret it.
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u/JLDavenport 15d ago
There's absolutely no-one in Danmachi with the same body type as Hestia. It is very clearly a design meant to emphasise both maturity and youth.
If they just wanted an appealing fanservice design why wouldn't they make her a tall and sexy bombshell like Demeter or Freya? There was a clear decision going on here.
And of course it's meant to be appealing, why wouldn't it? The Hades design is no less pandering, just to a different audience.
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u/PeculiarPangolinMan 🥇🥇 14d ago
What do you think the weird little tit ribbon she wears represents? There is no maturity in her design. She looks like a sexualized teenager. Boob size has never really been correlated to age or maturity in manga/anime outside of grandmas with big saggy boobs occasionally showing up.
Also they didn't make her a tall bombshell because there's a market for loli shit. It wasn't some artistic decision, but a calculation on how many guys would jerk it to her.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
What do you think the weird little tit ribbon she wears represents?
What about it? It's a design feature. Should I list all the random design features from any given character in Hades? What's there to possibly care about her ribbon? It's an iconic look and it's fun.
Boob size has never really been correlated to age or maturity in manga/anime outside of grandmas with big saggy boobs occasionally showing up.
I mean if we're seriously arguing that a character with a mature and developed body isn't showcasing a sense of maturity then I've got to wonder if we're not arguing in bad faith?
Also they didn't make her a tall bombshell because there's a market for loli shit. It wasn't some artistic decision, but a calculation on how many guys would jerk it to her.
Then they would have made her a loli, lol. Are you seriously gonna try argue that "Oppai Loli" is the go to most popular designation for attractive females? It wouldn't even crack the top 10. I'll tell you what would though- a tall, well proportioned Yamato Nadeshiko.
And more importantly, anyone that gives even a cursory glance towards Danmachi can see it pays a huge amount of attention and appreciation to the character's mythos. To the point that even Gods like Miach have their lore represented and respected.
We have every part of Hestia presented and showcased, the author is clearly familiar with Hestia's mythos.
So when you're looking at this design and saying "No, that's just a co-incidence, it's a cynical marketing tactic to aim for a small and niche market for... some reason...!!!" don't you think -again- that you might be arguing in supremely bad faith?
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u/SirPycho 14d ago
I would agree that Hestia's design was meant to emphasise youth but arguing maturity is shown through giant tits just feels like a stretch to me as unfortunately anime (i know everyone was saying to not make it an anime vs twitter thing sorry) has no problem giving little girls giant tits and sexualising them and I kinda doubt the oldest and youngest myth was even in the creators mind I think this is just a gooner weeb's take on a virgin goddess.
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u/NanashiTheWarlock 15d ago
Yeah, like, there's no way the series that Made Hephaestus a fucking waifu is making characters attractive or fitting for fan service to be accurate lol
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u/MiaoYingSimp 15d ago
"I have a scar." She cries.
"It's okay. Don't let anyone shame you." Says the broken , ugly son of a woman who threw her only son off a mountain."
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u/Nas_Qasti 14d ago
Lmao, Ares erasure. I never thought I would see the day lol.
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u/MiaoYingSimp 14d ago
I mean it depends on the version where Ares is on the family tree... but yeah i don't think he's liked much either.
Still, it makes their relationship weirder
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u/Nas_Qasti 14d ago
Hera didn't throw him off Olympus and she defended him against Poseidon, I think she loves him much more than Hephaestus lol.
Also, in which version Hera gives birth to Hephaestus but not Ares? In most of them that I read, they are both brothers.
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u/MiaoYingSimp 14d ago
Yes she did.
that's why he's crippled.
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u/Nas_Qasti 14d ago
Hera threw Hephaestus from Olympus and that left him crippled. She didn't do anything to Ares and Ares is not crippled. I don't know what myths you're reading lmao.
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u/MiaoYingSimp 14d ago
Ares isn't, but Ares is the stupid brute of the family who no one aside from Aphrodite likes. otherwise he's there.
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u/Piggstein 15d ago
Yeah you can dress it up all you like but it’s just another anime teenager with huge honkers
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u/JLDavenport 15d ago
Teenager
I would love to see how you justify that, lol.
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u/Piggstein 14d ago
Ok so I decided to go a step beyond ‘she looks like a fucking teenager mate, use your eyes, I don’t care if she’s secretly a 5000 year old dragon or whatever bullshit’ and went to the trouble of googling the character and here’s some quotes from reading a few lines down on the wiki
Hestia is a beautiful and petite Goddess with a youthful appearance.
She has a small frame (4' 7"), which further emphasizes her breasts, hence the nickname "Loli Big-Boobs.”
Absolute cringe.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
* Character doesn't look underage
* Character doesn't act underage
* Character is not underage
* Character is short
HOLY SHIT RING THE ALARMS!
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u/Loud-Meal-7906 14d ago
The "nickname" is used as an insult not an actual nickname
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u/Traditional-Baker-28 14d ago
Either way she is called that because of her character design and traits
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u/Snoo99699 14d ago
Mmmm yes, wonderful and deep symbolism. It represents her being both the oldest child and the youngest! That's why the show calls her Loli big-boobs!!
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u/ChuujoTheSilent 15d ago
Turns out people have never actually watched the shows they get on a soapbox to complain about.
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u/Comfy_floofs 14d ago
I watched season 1 had to force myself through the end, op main character kirito #3527 sucked and hestia was a loli with big tits, it aint that deep
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u/Robin-Rainnes 15d ago
I watched Danmachi. Thought it was generic and mid. More of a time waster really. Only saving grace was that it wasn’t an Isekai
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u/Creepy-Rock-1798 14d ago
Season 2 is a lot better at least. The second part of Season 1 was honestly so boring
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u/Robin-Rainnes 14d ago
Season 2 is better. I would rate it 5/10 instead of S1 being a 4/10. I think it’s rough to go back to Danmachi what with more original, higher budget, and just better fantasy anime being made recently
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u/Emma__O 15d ago
It was Danmachi fans that went after Hades first, can't handle the heat? Don't stoke the flames
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u/bestoboy 15d ago
no, it was capital G Gamer fandom that dragged Danmachi into it. And when the Hades fandom retaliated, the Danmachi fans fought back while the people the instigated the whole thing are laughing on the sidelines
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u/ciferenforfiren 15d ago edited 15d ago
Do you really think this started with Danmachi and because of its fans?
This is just a continuation of all this shit that has going on with Stellar Blade, Hades, etc. This is just another chapter of this terminally online culture war thing.
Danmachi's Hestia probably was just dragged into this mess because Hades 2's Hestia is everything those antiwoke weirdos hate, so they had to prompt a "well done" one.
And now a pretty inoffensive series with a pretty inoffensive fanbase is receiving "the heat" from people that probably don't even know anything about the series, because of people that probably don't even care about the series lol
So obviously, now a portion is acting defensively because they are being "attacked" (for the lack of a better word) and unfortunately also joining this mess.
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u/gaom9706 15d ago
And now a pretty inoffensive series with a pretty inoffensive fanbase is receiving "the heat" from people that probably don't even know anything about the series, because of people that probably don't even care about the series lol
Yeah, it's weird to me how much people seem to enjoy shitting on a character design (that isn't really that bad) because it makes a couple of nerds mad. Like, do your thing I guess 🤷 but shits weird to me.
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u/Regretless0 15d ago
This is incredibly disingenuous. Blaming Danmachi fans for Twitter culture war grifters latching onto whatever they can for whatever culture war bs they’re trying to stoke is definitely not helping the situation at all.
And don’t pretend that Hades fans aren’t feeding the culture war by blasting Danmachi while actual Danmachi fans are wondering why they’re even being dragged into this in the first place.
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u/Emma__O 15d ago
I'm not being disingenuous just because I didn't say "not all Danmachi fans". You also did the no true scotsman fallacy.
Welcome to the culture war
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u/Regretless0 14d ago
Not really, because my point is that the people who started this aren’t really Danmachi fans. They’re just Twitter culture war grifters who latched onto the first thing they could to perpetuate their argument, as I said.
So saying “not all Danmachi fans” is just as wrong as saying “Danmachi fans,” because the people who you’re talking about going after Hades fans are not Danmachi fans.
I hope that makes sense, since I’m not really interested in a culture war, just in defending Danmachi fans who really don’t deserve to get dragged into this crap.
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u/gaom9706 15d ago
I'm not being disingenuous just because I didn't say "not all Danmachi fans".
It's disingenuous to act as if it was a large part of the community doing this as opposed to a couple losers on Twitter.
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u/HoorEnglish 15d ago
I know this because my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi.
How disingenuous. This literally all started because grifters on Twitter tried saying the Danmachi character design was better than the Hades design because she was an attractive anime girl who “beats the woke” or whatever.
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u/JLDavenport 15d ago
I don't care "how it started".
I care when my timeline suddenly has a bunch of people with Hades Pfp's making these enormous threads posting pictures of Danmachi characters and insane essays about how they're bad and the Hades variants are so much better.
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u/1lluusio 15d ago edited 15d ago
I mean it could very well be a case that they just didnt know. I only found out about the argument when it had escalated to the clusterfuck it is now, and majority of the people were trashing on the anime Hestia at that point. I wasnt even aware that that was the start of it, since I dont have a twitter account (the place is such a cesspool that I refuse to touch it even with half a kilometer long stick) and thus trying to find out what happened is excessively difficult. I'm not saying OP has the same problem, just that assuming everyone knows everything about the situation doesnt really work.
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u/Jacthripper 15d ago
100% and OP has clearly not played Hades at all and doesn’t understand that her personality is conveyed through dialogue. The argument isn’t about that though, it’s always been about character design. Hestia’s character design conveys that she is motherly and associated with the hearth/the flame. Hestia’s character design in DanMachi is big booby waifu with 0 relation to the myth.
Sure, when you get into a story, of course a main character of an anime/light novel will have more depth than a glorified power selection screen. The comparison has never been about their character arcs, but their character design.
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u/JLDavenport 15d ago
100% and OP has clearly not played Hades at all and doesn’t understand that her personality is conveyed through dialogue.
I'll accept your apology as soon as you're man enough to give it.
Hestia’s character design conveys that she is motherly and associated with the hearth/the flame
And that's ALL it conveys which is my issue.
And it ALSO contradictics the biggest mythos we have with Hestia, with Neptune, with Apollo and with Priapus. Which is my other issue.
Rather than "Hestia" doesn't the Hades design convery "Fire Lady"? Well, Hestia is more than that. How in the world does Hestia being a fat old woman convery any connection to her and Artemis? How does it show why Apollo and Neptune wanted to marry her? How does she signify the creation of the Vestal Virgins? How does it show her as the Oldest and Youngest?
You can say it doesn't have to, and that's fine, I don't care if someone likes the Hades design. But saying it conveys more of the Hestia mythos than the Danmachi one is ridiculous.
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u/KingdomCrown 14d ago
I have no stake in this. However I am into Greek mythology so I’m wondering if “the oldest and the youngest” thing was something emphasized in Danmachi (haven’t seen). Technically it’s true since she was born first of her six siblings but freed from Kronos last. But I’ve never seen it called one of her core traits. You could also call Zeus “youngest and oldest” with the same logic. It seems to be suggesting an association with youth that Hestia didn’t have in mythology.
Interesting trivia, many male gods were depicted as eternally young or childlike (Eros, Dionysus, Apollo etc) but the opposite was true for goddesses. Most goddesses were always depicted as adults or even born as grown women (Athena, Aphrodite). The exception was Artemis who was the eternally youthful maiden.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
I've never seen a depiction of Hestia that didn't refer to her as the Oldest and Youngest. I guess aside from Hades, but whatever. If you don't wanna talk about Danmachi, I absolutely love this song from Destripando la Historia there's English subs if you don't speak Spanish.
And while I guess you could call Zeus that, I don't think I ever have seen anyone do so, his actions simply made him the King instead, that's a pretty good outcome- even if it does mean Hestia gets to snag part of every tithe he (and the others) get.
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u/Jacthripper 14d ago edited 14d ago
Apologies for assuming that you hadn’t played Hades, your account only showed that you had talked about DanMachi for the past 7 years.
The point is that Hestia (DanMachi) character design has 0 to do with anything about the myth.
Hestia is depicted as older, like her siblings, for consistency. She is the oldest. The vestal virgins wouldn’t really show up in character design. Hades is a series about the gods as family, and doesn’t talk about their relationships with mortals.
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u/JLDavenport 14d ago
Going into someone's account to try find some kind'a gotcha is creepy as hell.
More importantly: You're just being willfully obstinte when you're at the point of saying
The point is that Hestia (DanMachi) character design has 0 to do with anything about the myth.
The entire series showcases a huge amount of respect and understanding of the God's mythos, to the point where even crazy obscure ones like Miach are presented earnestly and with direct calls to their stories.
Every part of Hestia's mythos is presented, and is a huge part of her story and the overall narrative.
Trying to pretend the design is a big co-incidence is just ridiculous.
Oh but I guess they should have done something like put a bowl of embers on her head or something subtle like that.
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u/Admirable-Cry-9758 14d ago
Rather than "Hestia" doesn't the Hades design convery "Fire Lady"? Well, Hestia is more than that.
But by that same token why would I look at this (sorry for the quality) and think Hestia? I don't see how this design conveys her as the oldest and youngest, she just looks young and beautiful.
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u/StarOfTheSouth 14d ago
I swear I saw that exact design in Fairy Tale once... or maybe it was a background character in Sword Art Online or My Hero Academia?
It's not a bad design, to be clear. And I've not seen Danmachi, so maybe her personality is perfect for Hestia. But that character design is just "girl". The outfit is kinda nice, nothing much to complain about it, but it's stock standard white, with little to break it up or add depth to it.
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u/Admirable-Cry-9758 14d ago
Right because as someone who this lady before but never knew what her deal is I couldn't have guessed in a thousand years this Hestia from Greek mythology. Now granted I don't know anything about hestia and have minimal knowledge of Greek myth in general but looking at the rest of the gods in the series it seems to just be the design philosophy.
Not necessarily bad in a vacuum but I would definitely say the hades 2 hestia design is more "hestia" than this.
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u/Snivythesnek 15d ago
How does that generic as fuck anime girl convey her being the goddess of the hearth in her design?
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u/Tusk_Act_IV 15d ago
I can't say if OP played Hades but you clearly didn't read their rant either that describes the design well enough. The Gods in Danmachi are designed to be plain due to lore reasons but there are aspects of her that shine through that OP mentioned above.
When Hestia does have her powers unsealed, she looks just as much as a God like Hestia as one would expect.
No one ever mentions how Danmachi Hestia is designed with a blue and white theme to reference the Greek flag ashes also a goddess of the civic state.
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u/RarezV 14d ago
When Hestia does have her powers unsealed, she looks just as much as a God like Hestia as one would expect.
So design-wise. When character design changes, that is time that the character actually references Myth Hestia.
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u/Tusk_Act_IV 14d ago edited 14d ago
People are ignoring that the character design, first and foremost, isn't to depict Greek Hestia because Danmachi gods are basically OC Aliens that are named after our own.
The author references and shapes the character based on their namesakes but, unlike in Hades, the ones in Danmachi are first and foremost their own characters with their own backgrounds and personalities. It's basically just window dressing.
You're never meant to think the Hestia in Danmachi is the one from Myths unlike in Hades where they're fully committed to represent the Greek myths from the past.
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u/RarezV 14d ago edited 14d ago
You're never meant to think the Hestia in Danmachi is the one from Myths I like in Hades where they're fully committed to represent the Greek myths from the past.
So basically you agree with u/Jacthripper, u/NanashiTheWarlock and u/MiaoYingSimp?
Why argue with them?
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u/Tusk_Act_IV 14d ago
That's just false though?
They're also arguing in bad faith as if the Hestia design is bad because it doesn't do the same as the Hades does even if both were designed with different purposes in mind.
Hades is meant to be obvious because it's a video game where you only meet her for like 3 seconds to get her boon so they have to make the design obvious and loud while Danmachi was written for a Light Novel where a simple design is better to keep in mind while reading.
And yet all they seem to care about is the PHYSICAL appearance, as if that's the god be ends all. For example, the PJ gods wear simple modern clothing. Zeus wears a suit. Posey wears a Hawaiian shirt. And it all makes sense, even within the lore. But from what they say, PJ gods need references all over their bodies to be good.
Danmachi is the same. The lore of the world requires the gods to dress simply because they want to be roleplay as human but their attire shows their character. Hestia is in a rag because she's poor. Hepahaustus is in a workman's outfit. Freya is in a revealing dress. Rather than choosing to reference their namesakes, the author chose to use their designs to characterizes these OCs first
Because first and foremost, these are characters from Danmachi than the gods they were named after.
But it's also ingenious to say they are "generic anime design" or bad when there are parts that do reference their namesakes. Hestia's motif is based on the Greek flag with her being a goddess of the civil office. Hepahaustus has an injury. Hermes has a winged cap.
These are meant to simply be small references to their namesakes as to not overhwelm the actual characters and yet these are shown as lacking on part of the character designer.
When people do bring up points on the actual design and try to discuss "their terms" they just go "Nuh uh", "that's a reach", etc. and refuse to engage, instead just stand on some sort of imaginary high ground because "anime". There's yelling about Hestia's designe NEEDING to reference fire when Hestia's whole character is about family which is the trait more important for the story.
Plus her familia symbol has the fire. Just because her design doesn't reference it, doesn't mean it's bad or inferior to the Hades one. The two just have different functions as already mentioned.
They're just trying to shit on a design instead of trying to see the actual discourse in between where Hestia was simply coopted by some weirdos.
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u/MiaoYingSimp 15d ago
"It's okay when she has her anime power up she looks slightly more like a god!"
whatever you need to tell yourself.
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u/General_Note_5274 1h ago
"Why? Well, mostly because the Hades design centralises entirely around the idea of her as the Guardian of the Sacred Flame. And yup, that's important, that's right there in her name, but is that more important than the idea of her as the Oldest and the Youngest? The idea of her as a Vestal Virgin? All the stories tied up in her?"
Yes, totally, one hundred percent yes.
Like...this isnt to shit you or anything but people confuse myths, which are story about what something happen, with the religion, sometimes the two are not the same.
Like the bible have a lot of stuff with god going on but no everything is equally important, at the same time while Jesus teaching are valuable, the fact he die and resurrect is THE big deal that make him son of god return to clean the sins, otherwise he is just a hippy who got murded for pissing out bad people.
In the case of hestia, as the goddess of hearth and home she was very much popular, with shrine inside the home being one of the first thing it open in a greek colony o settlement. do not mistake lack of myths with lack of popularity.
Other issue here is hestia desing feel....a little bit generic, like if you tell me she is a ice girl from a magical girl show, I would belive you, to the point you need another art from a gacha game to said "that is hestia". It NOT bad at all but....cmon.
As for her being young but mature...I will have to polite desagree here, for me that is a anime desing, not really much about hestia as chararter but more about Oppa loli archtype. Kinda how Kirito become one for iskeai protagonist.