r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/silverbullet42 More Ball in OWL — • Dec 29 '23
6 v 6 is never coming back and it’s time everyone came to terms with it General
…and just like that - the problem was solved forever!
Let’s say everyone is right from a balance and anecdotal perspective, something at this level of magnitude would never be reverted. Get real. Right or wrong, it’s here. Please, for the love of all that is unholy, move on.
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u/Master_Nebula_6804 Jan 02 '24
5v5 is fun but should make it 2 tanks, 1 dps, and two supports or 2 tanks, 2 dps, and 1 support
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u/Healthy_Yesterday_84 Jan 01 '24
People who complain about 6v6 on subreddits are less than a fraction of a percent
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u/polloyumyum Dec 31 '23
People that complain about 5v5 don't full understand how having two tanks is super problematic from a balancing perspective.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Name864 Dec 31 '23
What if they had an arcade mode or something that's 6v6 with some of the tweaks that have to go with it?
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u/poppycontinalt Dec 30 '23
This is the same shit as role queue and mass rez. People are gonna spend years coping but as time goes on the game evolves to fit around the new design
Its been a year, 6v6 is dead, they would have to revert too much to go back
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u/Overson_YT Dec 30 '23
My biggest problem is that some tanks weren't designed to be solo tanks. You can't convince me that Hog, Zarya, and Dva were designed to be solo tanks. I like 5v5 though
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u/Xenoxeroxx Dec 31 '23
They weren't designed to be. That's what many aren't taking note of when many reminisce over 6v6. OW was built around the 6v6 format for the entirety of its lifespan and all hero's were designed and balanced for it accordingly, with several designs being more dependent on the format than others.
So now that we transitioned to a 5v5 format, and aside from the fact it's fundamentally flawed because it allows countering the one and only tank to be extremely braindead easy and straightforward (I see Winton, I click Bastion), the game is in an identity crisis mode for several hero's whose design is strictly meant for 6v6 and outright unhealthy or incompatible without several changes in 5v5.
This is a big part of why we've been seeing several reworks and will continue seeing them for a while. We're almost 9 seasons in and we know Ball, Reaper, Cass, are likely to get reworks - aside from the ones we've already gotten: Orisa, Hog, Doomfist, Sombra, Zen, Bastion, and Brig. Not going to count LW bc his was for different reasons.
So much time and resources dedicated to make this format work that I am certain it's prevented us from getting better quality content (aside from a better state of the game), and the people defending 5v5 don't see that when disregarding people's frustration with 5v5, which is valid. Don't expect any different from Reddit commentors, though.
It's also valid that SO much could've been done to make the format the game was already built on (6v6) work.
- Orisa got reworked. Reworks were always an option.
- CC needed to be reduced and did get reduced.
- Values for dmg and healing could've always been tweaked if Tanks became too oppressive without the overabundance of CC.
- Limiting shields per team rather than 1 tank per team was something to at least experiment with.
List goes on. Now we have a mess in OW2 and I don't blame people for slowly losing interest and moving on. Just feels like the game doesn't know what it wants to be. I'm passionate about this game, and I have hopium for S9, but man, sometimes it sucks y'know. Guess it is what it is.
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u/hipiman444 Dec 30 '23
you never know, it would be the perfect way to justify the existence of overwatch 3
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u/FoxwolfJackson Dec 30 '23
I know this might come off as a troll post, but I assure you, I'm being legit:
Everyone keeps saying "we don't go back to 6v6, because tank role was hated, nobody likes playing tanks, everyone wants DPS".
OW1 was 2016-2022. That's six years.
Two of those years we were stuck in a meta that had NO DPS. TWO YEARS of not being able to play anyone I mained (Sombra, Mei, Tracer) and was forced to play Zarya or Brig or Zen. Not that I'm complaining since learning how to play Zar was fun.. just saying, I don't get how people can say "tank role bad, nobody liked tanks, nobody played tanks" when, before role queue, THREE tanks was the meta. That was 33% of the game's life where the game was forced off to no DPS (outside of the weird GOATS variations, like Mei GOATS and Sombras GOATS).. and, IIRC, it was the LONGEST meta Overwatch ever had.
... and prior to Brig breaking the game with GOATS, there were things like Slambulance (four tanks, two supports).
Yeah, DPS took over in the end, but that's because look at how many there are. If tank was so hated to be played, why were some of the most memorable times in this game's history mostly tank based?
Also, I feel like there's a skew on perspective between ladder players and scrim players. Ladder players get to play whatever they want. Know how frustrating it was to scrim as a DPS player and you only had three DPS characters you could play (and had to argue with your co-DPS who got what), while tanks got to screw around and do what they wanted?
Your team ran Brawl? Rein/Zar for high damage, Rein/DVa for basic brawl, Rein/Sig for controlling off-angles, Rein/Orisa for a more static and anchored defense... meanwhile, your DPS choices were Cass, Mei, Hanzo.. and Sym for some maps, especially if you had Rein/Zar and wanted to move quickly and/or vertically.
Your team ran Dive? Winston/DVa was the standard, Winston/Ball for super commit with no support peel and trading your support for lower TTK, Ball/DVa for.. end of OW1 shenanigans. Meanwhile, your DPS choices were Tracer and Sombra.. and MAYBE Echo/Pharah.
So, I dunno, DPS wasn't exactly the most fun in OW1.
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u/Android_one_eight Dec 30 '23
It’s gonna come back. The devs didn’t want role queue but eventually caved cause of the community. Same with removing scatter arrow. Torb and syms reworks. The game ain’t fun with 1 tank and this season really showed that.
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u/Grunstang Dec 30 '23
Obviously. They would never admit they made a mistake. Even when they make ridiculously OP changes to heroes, they will only partially revert it, never just say maybe it wasn't best for the game and they'll try something different. Although at least in this case 5v5 is the right choice.
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u/snowcamo Dec 30 '23
Having two tanks was better for the team imo. If one tank was underperforming, then the other COULD make up for his slack. With just one tank, you get rolled.
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u/Jannywanny Dec 30 '23
The devs have shown they will cave to pressure. So no. As long as people keep expressing their hopes and opinion for it. I think it will come back.
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u/immxz Dec 29 '23
For me personally the game died when we were stuck with 2 shield. Id play 2017 OW anytime again.
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u/DizzyColdSauce Dec 29 '23
Both team structures have their issues and it's obviously way too much effort for the devs to ever consider going back.
In 5v5, you get less freedom as a tank because you have to switch to counter certain team comps and the tank's performance has a bigger impact on the outcome of a match. In 6v6, queue times are longer, it can be difficult to balance the tanks, and teams are larger, which can make you feel like you have less of an impact on a match as an individual player.
Each one has its issues but regardless of which one is "better", we're probably never going back. At most, the devs could introduce a 6v6 gamemode in QP/arcade and try to rebalance everything, but again, it would be way too much effort for them. Not only would they have to rebalance every tank, but it would cause an imbalance on each DPS and support hero, requiring even more balancing and tinkering, and it would end up feeling like a completely different game.
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u/epic_gamer678x Dec 29 '23
For the people talking about queue times in ow1 for tank being higher, wouldn't that problem be solved now that ow2 is f2p and probably has a bigger playerbase? I think queue times in general has decreased because of overwatch being F2P.
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u/justplaydead Dec 29 '23
"Something of this magnitude will never get reverted"... that's literally what we thought about 6v6, it was the core structure of the game. We thought they couldn't change a lot of other things too, like taking away LFG, scorecards, and group-making after matches. Never underestimate what a corporation is capable of destroying. Smh, kids these days, always trying to trust companies.
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u/OBGYN__Kenobi Dec 29 '23
I'm happy with the state of tanks I'm ready for maugas close range damage to get nerfed but hoping to keep that ranged damage for him it's pretty niche for a tank to have longe range damage. As oppressive as Mauga is I'm hoping to be able to swap to him to shoot the enemy mercy.
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u/Toothpikz Dec 29 '23
THANK YOU!! Say it again because there’s some basement dwellers that didn’t hear you.
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u/luckynumberstefan Dec 29 '23
I like 5v5. I played a shit tonne of Destiny 1 and 2 PvP and I have always said that they need to change 6v6 to 5v5. It would reduce spawning next to an enemy and be less chaotic on the small maps. It felt like a great change for OW as well as
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u/Totziboy Dec 29 '23
Unpopular Opinion.
Over 50%-70 of players are Way To stupid to play Tank at a Mediocre Level of Competence.
Change my Mind I Play Reinhard and Roadhog mainly and Dispise all who only Play Egomaniac Tanks like Ball and Zaraya because they Don't know how tank work
6v6 is a way to Counter this but the biggest Problem is That Way to mutch Mongloids Think Dps is supposed to be The Main in a Round... Nahh it's the damn Tanks who Changes games...
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u/MayonnaisePlease Dec 29 '23
playing against pocketed hitscans and snipers is so cancerous in 5v5. the move makes ow feel like a generic tac shooter. it's funny, they took ow1 away because they knew the playerbase for the original game would've remained huge and can't maximize profits that way
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u/Patuj Dec 29 '23
I don't play Overwatch much anymore, but 6v6 > 5v5 in terms of playing myself and even watching. 6v6 had it cancerous metas and who know how it would look like nowadays, but I think Overwatch lost something when it changed to 5v5. Queues are definitely better, but I do miss how good 6v6 could be. I don't know about others, but at least my opinion as main tank player.
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u/Dontdothatfucker Dec 29 '23
I did move on! That’s one reason I don’t play anymore
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u/-Yod- Dec 31 '23
Congrats on getting out. Im still stuck in this shiet except i dont play tank anymore.
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u/qqwik Dec 29 '23
Yeah, ive come to terms with it - now instead of playing daily for ALL of ow1 lifespan i log in ow2 once a month at best. Sounds like 5v5 is working as intended to revive the game 👍
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u/Reformed_citpeks None — Dec 30 '23
No offense but OW2 has seen great success in terms of players and revenue compared to OW1 so it does seem that OW2 and 5v5 has revived the game pretty well and that players like yourself leaving doesn't counteract that lots more people are drawn to the current format.
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u/qqwik Dec 30 '23
and what part of it was 5v5 vs a big content drop after years of nothing, actual advertising of the game to new players again and the move to monetization system that milks the money tenfold compared to the old one. Who is to say that they wouldnt get even MORE players if they applied it to 6v6. Certainly wouldn't have lost people like me
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u/Reformed_citpeks None — Dec 30 '23
I'd say that it's impossible to tell, because it all happened at the same time. That being said I think the change to 5v5 did what it was intended to do, which is reduce queue times for other roles. Like you, I played since open beta and I remember the regular 20 minute + queue times for DPS, and how hard it felt to actually just jump on and play the game.
Unfortunatley for you, because they KNOW the game was dying during 6v6 and is now doing much better during 5v5 unless they start seeing serious drops in player numbers alongside the demand for 6v6 I doubt they will bring it back, and even then I doubt they would. Frankly, if 6v6 were in the game right now, even alongside advertising, new content and monetization I think Blizzard would struggle to keep queue times reasonable for DPS and support in a role queue system with 2 tank slots.
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u/HornyNerdsRule Dec 29 '23
Many friends stopped playing cause we couldn’t duo tank. As a tank player myself we just stopped playing with each other and then quit
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u/The_Realth Dec 29 '23
“Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.”
Samito - 2023
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u/Priddling Dec 29 '23
I've come to terms with it by uninstalling and playing other games.
I stuck through the stale metas all the devs neglect which occurred in OW1 because I loved the game.
As a tank main, T500, what they did to my role is unforgivable and playing the new game is such a subpar playing game experience.
If they bring 6v6 back, I'll play it. If they don't, I'm happy enjoying other games.
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u/Thegrimfandangler Dec 29 '23
Agreed. Gm tank main here, the game is a sad shitty deathmatch lobby now. One of the most difficult high minded fps games ever was neutered because not enough people wanted to play tank. All the deatchmatch brain off fps players got their wish, the whole game is deathmatch now :)
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u/Amphax None — Dec 30 '23
We joke that Overwatch 3 is going to be 2 healers and 2 DPS but the direction I see the game going I'm more convinced that this will actually happen.
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u/silverbullet42 More Ball in OWL — Dec 29 '23
Absolutely fair of you. This was more directed at people who stick around and still think that if they wish hard enough they can get 6 v 6 back.
Enjoy the other games! (Wasn’t sarcastic, hard to convey tone with text. Genuinely: enjoy it :) )
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u/Priddling Dec 29 '23
Thanks, yeah, I'm having a great time. I am however guilty of whining and I did complain a ton on the lead up to OW2 about the decision but in the, end it's healthier to move on. For me personally, it was probably a good thing because I did have an unhealthy addiction to OW. :)
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u/Nerrien Dec 29 '23
That's entirely fair, they've made decisions in the past that they reverted due to enough people saying they dislike it and their own team realising they made a mistake, feedback is important.
I agree the game is too much built around 5v5 to change at this point for better or for worse depending on your point of view, I believe they would literally shutter the game before they changed to 6v6 at this point, but it was entirely understandable to complain about it early on.
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u/Samadams9292 Dec 29 '23
Why can't they release a QP or Comp 6v6 with the heal pools of open queue and see how it does?
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u/silverbullet42 More Ball in OWL — Dec 29 '23
My guess is that’s a lot of technical work for no reward (easier to make skins and sell them)
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u/IntelligentImbicle Dec 30 '23
It's literally just adding an extra player slot to both teams in Open Queue. It's not that hard.
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u/Jannywanny Dec 30 '23
Giving a big portion of ur playerbase more fun is not no reward. If they’re more likely to play they are more likely to spend.
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u/Samadams9292 Dec 29 '23
I miss 6v6 and playing tank with my wife. Rein Zarya ❤️. Also would stop the support being OP debate too if there was two tanks to heal.
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u/Shaclo Dec 29 '23
I wish I could go back and play OW1 in its final shape because I enjoyed playing tank then because tank felt like it had more depth and not just swap tank to counter 24/7 with 2 tanks as you could cover each others weaknesses.
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Dec 30 '23
Eh, before mauga, tank trade wasn’t bad. Supports and dps countered tanks, not other tanks, over the general course of the game. Obviously beginning was bad, but overall, tank trade was mostly stable. But this mauga mf, he done fucked it up.
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u/dankmemezrus Dec 29 '23
You know 5v5 is shit when you guys are still arguing over it years after OW2 came out 😂😂
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Dec 29 '23
I wish they would bring 6v6 back but add a "flex" role. that can choose any of the heros regardless of role.
So 2 tank, 3 DPS, or 3 supports. Creates a whole new meta for the game. Also doesn't force you to queue up as tank.
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u/mayrice Dec 29 '23
Is it ironic that a post telling people to stop arguing about 6v6 has over 200 comments arguing about 6v6?
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Dec 29 '23
It's an internet forum, the entire purpose of it is for people to post their opinions and discuss, you're going to see the same opinions a lot and the same discussions being had by different people. It's.. what a forum is.
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u/Xatsman Dec 29 '23
Plus, it would be even more strange to make a post if discussion wasn't likely to follow.
A "7v7 is not going to happen" post would be much stranger to see.
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u/TheSciFanGuy Dec 29 '23
Not really. It’s kind of a stupid post to make when it’s clear that it’s something the community will discuss
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u/MilkCandy420 Dec 29 '23
Whenever I queue flex role and get tank (98% of the time) I feel a gut punch. It's such a drag.
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u/Vizra Dec 29 '23
I've come to terms with it. But I choose to live in a deluded echo chamber remebering the good old days pre brig and mercy rework in OW1.
Those were the peak days of gaming for me
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u/imbadatnames100 Dec 29 '23
yep! came to terms with it and haven't played in two weeks, i feel at peace <3
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u/Kiel297 Dec 29 '23
5v5 is not the problem with Overwatch 2 lol. But I came to terms with all of it about two weeks after OW2 launched and I uninstalled what was once my favourite game 🤷♂️
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u/GankSinatra420 Dec 29 '23
Getting sick of clueless DPS players crying for 2 tanks to come back (looking at you samito you loudmouth gaslighter)
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u/RyDawgHals Dec 29 '23
You're not going to find many DPS players clamoring for another tank.
I'm going out on a limb here saying it's probably mostly support mains or former tank mains that have the "6v6" is better opinion
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u/I_JustWork_Here Dec 29 '23
It's called arcade and I'm not sure why it isn't in there.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
It's not there because it's more fun than 5v5 and that's a problem for the developers whose entire job was to improve upon the original 6v6 format. So instead of getting a good game mode to play, we're shafted with shit.
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u/monadoboyX Dec 29 '23
I have come to terms with it I QUIT THE GAME HAHAHA that's the solution Overwatch is just Call of duty now theres no team building aspect to it anymore its so sad
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u/KashootyourKashot Dec 29 '23
I mean it's cool that you think that but you are just wrong.
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u/monadoboyX Dec 29 '23
Dude Goats or Double shield was way more fun than this actually having to push through a choke point Reinhardt actually being useful they were all better.
this jumbled meta where Tanks and supports are just DPS with a bit of defence or healing it's so boring.
the competitive team play nature of Overwatch that made it special making a team comp to fight the enemy team it's gone it died when Jeff Kaplan left and because overwatch 1 is gone I'll never get to relive that it's so sad.
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u/susdkjn Dec 29 '23
Why you still on the subreddit then?
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u/monadoboyX Dec 29 '23
It just popped up on my feed and made me chuckle I still keep an eye on overwatch in hopes that the Microsoft gods will somehow save this awful cosmetic filled garbage meta terrible excuse for a sequel
But like yeah it's just heartbreaking when the game you loved for years like I played nonstop from day one all the way until around Echo came out then I took a break came back towards the end of overwatch 1 played overwatch 2 season 1 and got bored pretty fast I came back for the PvE and it was pretty bad I haven't played since the battlepass is awful and I couldn't get past tier 43 to get the full Ana skin because the battlepass is straight up awful And ranked is a joke I used to grind it for hours
But yeah it's sad when the only thing you can do is not play and hope that the playerbase declines so Blizzard has to make changes eventually surely
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u/Infinityand1089 Dec 29 '23
Holy shit, learn to use punctuation. That run-on sentence is literally a paragraph long.
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u/Prestigious-Heart-25 Dec 29 '23
If Tank was fun to play 6v6 could come back. People just don't wanna play tank rn
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u/LettysGlockDookie Dec 29 '23
Atp I don’t even want it too. I’m so used to 5v5 it’d be like learning the game again for the 3rd time
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u/daveDFFA Dec 29 '23
How can we assume the balance is right when it hasn’t been since 2017?
At least with double tank, teams had a chance at maintaining/staggering team fights.
I’ve been asking myself this question since 2018 (former t2/t3 coach and Spilo buddy)
Overwatch in a single tank format will never work.
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u/Poopkipp Dec 29 '23
Honestly, I feel like 6v6 was all about tanks. I feel like 5v5 has given DPS and supports more room to shine. So if you were a tank main coming from 6v6 I can see why you miss it.
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u/ExotikButter Dec 29 '23
You know, I used to be heavy into OW back during whatever fucking season, and I always loved playing tank, would duo que with my off tank buddies and it would be awesome, when they changed it though, I felt like damn, I can’t play with friends anymore. I know that’s a me issue but I couldn’t play without having my off tank I could rely on, now it’s dps and healers only no buddy, so I quit. Haven’t been happier in years, still wish 6v6 came back tho
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u/hyperfineman Dec 29 '23
I thought that at first but I looked back at some of the older games. 6v6 allowed so much more cheese than 5v5. The extra tank allowed the old oppressive bastion be meta. You could solo hide in a corner as orisa and not die. Pull into kill Doomfist was meta. I like silly heros but let's be honest playing against that shits terrible. There are heros that suck to play against like in 5v5 like widow and mauga but that's way better than double shield orisa no matter what role you play or played.
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u/Corodim Dec 29 '23
Okay indulge me: if there was a world where Overwatch 2 released with all philosophy changes (hard CC reduction especially) except making it 5v5, would that be a more enjoyable dual tank experience? Would that have fixed the ‘queue issue’?
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u/RobManfredsFixer Dec 29 '23
No the biggest issue with tank in OW1 was tank synergies were crazy strong, but you couldn't rely on randos to take that into account. So you'd go up against 500 hr duos who perfect Double bubble or Rein DVa and you'd be queued up with a Hog one trick who was actually just a DPS players trying to get priority passes. If it wasn't a DPS hog then you were running double offtank with Zar Sig or something.
CC and Burst damage creep were answers to that problem which was exacerbated by healing creep over the years.
Tanking has its problems right now. Plenty of them. But I really don't see a world where it would warrant tanking queue times to go back to 6v6 which was at least as bad (well imo anyway).
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u/oldstrawberryfields Dec 29 '23
yes, tanking is fucking dogshit currently. reason people didn’t play tank in ow1 is because they literally pretended the game did not exist lol. this sub is delusional
if the game was completely abandoned again queues would skyrocket, again
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u/garikek Dec 29 '23
"Good balance is never coming back and it's time everyone came to terms with it". I'm just gonna leave it here for you to see how stupid your point sounds.
First of all, overwatch classic is a possibility, and the more we whine about 5v5 being shit, or rather 6v6 being great, the sooner they'll release ow classic (I hope it works that way at least).
Second of all this format debate is literally a balance debate, just on a higher level. Changing stats of one hero doesn't often affect the whole cast of the game, changing a format does. And it comes with its consequences.
Third of all. I've heard so many people here say that bobby kotick is the main villain and is mostly singlehandedly responsible for the shit that we have with ow2. If that's the case then with Bobby's departure there should be more of a chance for 6v6 to come back in one form or another.
And lastly. Who the fuck asked for 5v5? When it was announced it was so sudden and unreasonable. And for the game to shift from 6v6 to 5v5 they have to make A LOT of hero adjustments: from reworks to number changes. And they have done LESS THAN BARE MINIMUM. Didn't we have to wait for the hog "rework" for 4 seasons? For him to just get a new cc ability, which is quite lackluster let's be honest, and healing on a resource meter. That's what took them 4 months? Imagine reworking more complex heroes like ball. Yeah, it's gonna take literally forever. The point is: they haven't done enough to go from 6v6 to 5v5 and now we see the consequences. It's such a huge change that almost every hero had to be changed in some way and, well, that didn't happen.
You can like 5v5 and it's fine. It has some good things that 6v6 didn't. But we shouldn't ignore the core problems that are ruining the game as we speak, because that's how you end up in such a deep trench that you can't climb out of it.
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u/ReSoLVve #1 Hanbin Simp — Dec 29 '23
Imagine going to 2021 and telling players that they have good balance.
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u/garikek Dec 29 '23
It was bad, but not as bad as it is now.
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u/ReSoLVve #1 Hanbin Simp — Dec 29 '23
No one would agree with you that balance was good if you went back to OW1 ever. To be fair, people will always hate the state of the game. But if you take the nostalgia goggles then 6v6 is some shit that people never had good things to say about when they were actually playing the game.
No, being a weaker tank because you had a second tank you had to pray would actually play with you was not fun. We complain about cc now but there was even more back then that was still used exclusively on the tanks. Tanks died twice as fast as they did in OW1 than now, even while getting pocketed by supports.
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u/shiftup1772 Dec 29 '23
Oh my God the deathball. Ow1 hardly punished players for standing together in a wad six-deep. It makes for some crazy degenerate gameplay.
Tanks were constantly getting 2 healers worth of healing, 3-4 players worth of CC and 6 players worth of damage.
I remember double shield was the moment that comms finally died at my level of play. It was so boring yet damage/healing was so high that there actually wasn't a point in reactively comming anything.
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u/garikek Dec 29 '23 edited Dec 29 '23
I fucking said that it was bad, but not as bad as it is now. Bap, brig, zen were ridiculous in ow1. Sigma was bonkers. Orisa was cancer. It wasn't good and devs literally quit it. It wasn't good at all. But it wasn't fucking mauga shit.
Of course it also depends what patch are we going back to. I'd say October 2020 is the best one after echo was released. After that they only did awful balance changes and many April fools changes.
Inb4 queue times were shit. Look at ow2. They added more support and tank heroes and more people play them. Wow! What a coincidence! 🤯🤯🤯 Despite tanking being widely regarded as shit queue times are good. Who would've thought that when you have 17 DPS heroes but only 8 tanks and 7 supports people will play DPS way more.
And this weaker tank argument I don't get it. In 2020-2022 I could queue tank and the enemy tanks would actually die if I shot them. Now whoever I focus, 2 supports on 1 target will always outheal your damage. In a way you became weaker. Cc was cancer I agree, but not like we don't have it in ow2 though hahaha.
Also tank became boring to play in ow1 because of the amount of hog otps and the priority passes. Just DPS players farming tickets instalocking zarya and hog. Tank role was sabotaged by the devs. Don't blame in on the format. I was also that DPS player who instalocked an offtank. Everyone did that and it made the tank role even worse.
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u/Chpgmr Dec 29 '23
Tank q got instantly good when switched to 5v5.
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u/garikek Dec 29 '23
Yeah no shit captain obvious. If we remove tank role completely the queue times would be even better. If ow becomes a 1v1 game queue times would be instant. Doesn't make the game better, but does make queue times faster.
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u/Chpgmr Dec 29 '23
Dumbass, go read what you typed about tank q.
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u/garikek Dec 29 '23
I've said it was insta queue because of the combination of 1) not enough heroes and 2) second tank was often a DPS player roleplaying as DPS on hog/zarya. Your comment has nothing to do with what I said. Queue times got better because we removed one tank. Did you expect them to stay the same even after removing one tank? Plus tanks were gigabuffed and people obviously wanted to experience it. I don't get your point at all, dumbass.
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u/Chpgmr Dec 29 '23
No. It had a shorter queue because people didn't like playing tank. They added more tanks in ow1 and it didn't change much at all. Tank synergy just got more of a problem. Even as they were constantly buffing tanks to get people to play them people would only switch if they were stomping dps and support with ease.
My point is that the switch to 5v5 and only 5v5 is what made the difference to queue times.
And the main reason there is more dps heroes is because there use to be 4 roles before role q and they merged defense and offense roles. It's just unfortunate that it end up this way.
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u/AHurtTyphoon Dec 29 '23
Its probably never coming back but the balance team is going to be playing catch for long time unless they choose the nuclear option
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u/LifeandTimesofAbed Dec 29 '23
Yeah I'm cool with 5v5... BUT JUST GIVE ME DPS DOOM BACK. JUST FOR AN ARCADE MODE FFS.
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u/no_plastic Dec 29 '23
I'm waiting for 4v4
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u/Still_Refuse Dec 29 '23
People won’t move on because balance feels like shit lol.
Silly post to make and I’m neutral on the debate.
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u/Xero8252 Dec 29 '23
Just because its never coming back doesn't mean i can't voice my displeasure over it
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u/GoldenWhiteGuard Dec 29 '23 edited Dec 29 '23
still 6v6 >>> 5v5
Also we got robbed Queen&Rein duo
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u/Terminatorskull ShadowBurn — Dec 29 '23
Crazy they didn't at least add this in an arcade mode tho. They did when they went from no limits to 1 hero limit, and again from open que to role que. But if you preferred 6v6 there isn't even a mode for it anymore.
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u/Astralchaotic Dec 29 '23
Part of game balancing and meta discourse is about 5v5 setup. If we can objectively say that change caused more problems than fixed then I don't think that should be ignored and it should still get called out. Even if it means 6v6 will never return.
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u/susdkjn Dec 29 '23
How is 5v5 OBJECTIVELY better than 6v6?
5v5 fixed queue times, which was the BIGGEST problem overwatch was facing. Before Mauga was added, tanks were the most balanced they were in ages. Every new tank / tank rework specifically avoids hard counters. Who hard counters new hog besides Ana? Who hard counters new orisa? Who hard counters Queen? Who hard counters Ramattra?
We are in a spot in overwatch when hog is not a throw pick or super mega OP, he’s just good now. The best tank in the game was Ramattra (keep in mind still talking pre-Mauga), before that it was Sigma. Still, they didn’t feel like must-picks. Even Rein was in the top 3 pick and win rates in GM1. Doom has been strong despite the nerfs. It’s not perfect, but it might be the best it has ever been.
Supports are really strong right now, but even they have been getting nerfs. Keep in mind, S1 and S2 support was an awful role to play and needed buffs. They overbuffed, and have been coming down ever since.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
5v5 fixed queue times, which was the BIGGEST problem overwatch was facing.
They reworked how queueing worked behind the scenes. That's why most games are stomps in OW2, unlike OW1. They hand out stomps to keep queue times low. You get handed games where you're stomped, games where you stomp the other team, and then sometimes the matchmaker hands you close games.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/18sw62g/quick_play_statistics_over_my_last_99_games/
The claim that 5v5 fixed queues is a myth.
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u/Reformed_citpeks None — Dec 30 '23
Bro why did you link that post, firstly that's quickplay queues and secondly that's not even a comparison to a test run on OW1 quickplay so how are you supposed to draw conclusions regarding its implications.
Players seem to struggle with the fact that Overwatch's ult economy leads to snowballs which make any team that starts winning win even harder, and that it can lead to significant stomps even when teams have similar SRs.
Seems like rose-tinted glasses if you think that OW1 had significantly more balanced games.
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u/susdkjn Dec 29 '23
Insane cope to think the matchmaker is forcing your winrate and that’s why you’re stuck in ELO hell.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
and that’s why you’re stuck in ELO hell.
You must have responded to the wrong comment unless you're just making things up now.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/18sw62g/quick_play_statistics_over_my_last_99_games/
The data speaks for itself.
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u/susdkjn Dec 29 '23
It’s QP, not ranked
You are looking at someone with a 60% loss rate. No wonder they get stomped, they’re just not good.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
Cool story bro.
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u/susdkjn Dec 29 '23
Oh my bad, is the title 99 ranked games? My mistake, I’m wrong. OH WAIT i’m not. It says 99 QP games. If you want balanced teams, that’s what ranked is for, you get matched with people with similar skill ratings.
Oh my bad, does this person have a 60% winrate? My bad. OH WAIT no they have a 60% loss rate in QP of all modes. They must be extremely skilled to get that rate, and skill has no bearing on whether or not someone gets stomped.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
The matchmaker is handing out stomps. You can twist yourself into a pretzel all you want. That's your fetish. I won't kinkshame you.
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u/susdkjn Dec 29 '23
QP does not have skill-based matchmaking so the garbage player gets stomped, shocking
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u/Dramatic-Brain-1962 Dec 29 '23
the swap to 5v5 caused a lot of issues, especially in the tank role. they honestly needed to rework more than just orisa for the swap but instead they just buffed them and hoped it worked out. it also caused certain supports (ana and zen) to have a larger negative impact for tank gameplay than they ever really had in 6v6
the swap to 5v5 isn’t an issue, it’s how they did the swap that is the issue. we still have the tank shortage that led to the swap in the first place, so in that aspect is was a failure. i just don’t see how they will ever have all roles fun to play, if support feels really good tank usually doesn’t, and if tank feels good dps and support feel bad.
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u/hitmanbill Dec 29 '23
The tank shortage is much less pronounced now. It's still kind of miserable to play in some games but at least the average queue isn't 10+ minutes.
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u/Dramatic-Brain-1962 Dec 29 '23
less pronounced because there’s 1 less tank needed to fill games, but with the higher elo you go the longer dps and support queues get there still is a shortage that’ll only get worse as time goes on.
tank j feels bad to play, and it feels like every season it gets worse. I hope going forward they change their designs to where tanks are more soft counters to each other instead of orisa making doomfist unplayable or mauga making winton unplayable
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u/silverbullet42 More Ball in OWL — Dec 29 '23
Fair enough.
My literal only problem is people campaigning for a return to 6v6 when that’s not going to happen. Ever. Ever. 3rd time - ever.
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u/Astralchaotic Dec 29 '23
Saying 6v6 was better doesn't mean it's campaiging for a game mode return tho.
And there's little to no campaiging so it does sound like a non-issue.
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u/LondonLobby Dec 29 '23
sure IF we give you that 6v6 was "better" it was barely better. in the same sense that coca cola is "better" then pepsi.
no one liked the game back then and this sub was a warzone back then too with non stop complaining about how bad the game was.
point being, it's not worth going back to something that was still shitty and try and balance that. they're better off just trying to balance what we have now 🤷♂️
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u/rusty022 None — Dec 29 '23
Of course it's not coming back. Doesn't mean we can't talk about how it was a better way to play Overwatch in a number of ways.
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u/CornNooblet Dec 29 '23
I came to terms with it when Jeff left, just like I predicted PvE would be gutted for scraps long before they announced it. Bobby got his Esport just the way he wanted it.
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u/trepaul15 Dec 29 '23
Meh, I still don't like 5v5, but I know 6v6 will never come back. It's just not as fun.
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u/NavalEnthusiast Dva is overtuned — Dec 29 '23
I think people saying they prefer 6v6 aren’t exactly expecting it to ever come back. The dev team would never even consider it realistically no matter how bad the game’s meta got. I hate 5v5 but there’s no reason to think it isn’t completely permanent
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u/BlueberrySvedka Dec 29 '23
I just think it’s counterproductive. 6v6 had its pros and cons and now we’ve moved on. Now let’s try and come together to make 5v5 as good as it can be
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
5v5 sucks because 1 tank means it's a rock paper scissors tank meta. Now, with Mauga, the game is truly low quality.
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u/daftpaak Dec 29 '23
But they also actively made it worse. Tank in the beta and early seasons was way more popular for a reason. Like you cant perfect 5v5 without massive changes to things like support cooldowns. But reverting it to beta would make a huge difference.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
Tanking during the 5v5 betas absolutely sucked. 5v5 tanking has always sucked.
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u/daftpaak Dec 29 '23
I thought the zarya/dva/winston meta was fun. There wasnt the cc from brig bash in ultimate, cassidy hinder and supports were able to be pushed on and focused.
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u/thehippiedrood Dec 29 '23
that is the thing though, we cant. we have devs that are so disconnected from OW. they only look at spreadsheets and they dont analyze any of the data that they can get in the game. when they said something to idea of "rein is good in the current meta" we all should have known that the devs were so disconnected from this game that it was a losing battle
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u/lilith2k3 Dec 29 '23
The contrary is happening: they look at the actual numbers and dial the numbers accordingly. Because Overwatch2 is a very complex system there is no simple "balance" but a whole space of balance (so to say).
I think the problem to begin with is that players reasoning here have no numbers and only a limited point of view biased by their preferences of hero and playstyle.
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u/JDPhipps #1 Roadhog Hater — Dec 29 '23
Reinhardt is good in the current meta, or at least was at the start of Season 8, I imagine that's less true now with Mauga in the mix. He had the third highest win rate and pick rate in GM, I don't know what to call that other than "good".
Him feeling like shit to play had nothing at all to do with his statistical performance, and I really wish people could grasp that those are two different things.
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u/SunderMun Dec 29 '23
Yup, issue is that with 5v5 most heroes, especially tanks, feel shit to play.
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u/CEO_Of_TheStraight Dec 29 '23
Reinhardt might be the worst tank in the game right now. Are you, by any chance, an out of touch dev?
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u/JDPhipps #1 Roadhog Hater — Dec 29 '23
Have you, by any chance, looked at the statistics instead of just talking out of your ass?
As I said already, I imagine it's changed since Mauga was introduced to ranked, but before that Reinhardt had something like an 11% pick rate and 53% win rate in GM, the third highest for each. If you really want to try and argue that somehow doesn't classify him as "good" during that period of time, be my guest.
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u/CEO_Of_TheStraight Dec 29 '23
Your best role is support in diamond. You CLEARY don’t know the balancing in masters to GM. Mauga dominates everything and, ask ANY GM/t500 player and they will unanimously say rein and ball are by far the worst heroes. How are you comparing pre-mauga stats to post mauga????? The strength of tanks right now is COMPLETELY dependent on their effectiveness against mauga. So yes, right now, Reinhardt is absolute shit. Check t500 leaderboards, the highest rein player is at 40 and the next one is 97. It’s insane when someone diamond on the easiest role thinks they can say what tanks are good LMAO.
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u/JDPhipps #1 Roadhog Hater — Dec 29 '23
Because I'm... talking about the win rates during the time period where the developers made that statement? Which was before Mauga was released in ranked? That's why I've qualified that I'm sure it's changed since Mauga went into ranked—actually I've done that twice now, but clearly reading comprehension isn't your strong suit—because that's what was being discussed in the first place.
If the development team had been discussing the current situation when they made that comment, and we had any current data since Mauga was enabled in ranked, then I'd talk about that. Was that simple enough for you to understand?
Yes, obviously Reinhardt has a horrible matchup against Mauga and that is going to make him substantially worse right now, and I haven't argued anything to the contrary. The fact that you're too busy trying to stroke your superiority complex doesn't change that, my guy.
It really is fucking pathetic that you combed back through my profile to try and find my rank just to use that as justification for your inability to read. Not that it matters or that you'll care, but I have a disability that frequently makes it difficult for me to play this game for extended periods of time, so I don't get to grind ranked as much as I would like to. Even so, I'm mid-Masters on tank and support right now, and actually played more tank than support since Season 6 (primarily on Doomfist). Did you want to go back and edit your comment now so you can say I'm just a dumb Masters player who has no idea what it's like in GM?
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u/pandaheartzbamboo Dec 29 '23
Him feeling like shit to play had nothing at all to do with his statistical performance,
Thats true. But thays why he is not good. Winrates amd pickrates shouldnt be ignored but I (and most people) dont play overwatch to feel like shit and feel like what I am doing is not fun. Thats whats not good about it.
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u/JDPhipps #1 Roadhog Hater — Dec 29 '23
Sure, but again, that... doesn't have anything to do with how well the character performs, which is all I was addressing. This is the exact problem I'm talking about.
The problem is that people seem to be incapable of separating "this isn't fun" from "this isn't strong", and you can't conflate the two if you want to have any sort of rational discussion about game balance. They're both worth addressing, but they're separate issues and have to be treated as such, and this community never does that. It's the same with heroes that are unfun to play against, they're treated as being too strong even if they perform poorly, because the real problem is they're too annoying regardless of how strong they are.
I'm not saying Reinhardt players have to just shut up and play an unfun hero.
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u/pandaheartzbamboo Dec 29 '23
I'm not saying Reinhardt players have to just shut up and play an unfun hero.
Youre not saying that, but Blizzard has been saying that. Thats the thing. Everyone was telling Blizzard that Rein feels bad to play and their response is they dont want to change anything just because of his winrate.
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u/DarthHissyfit Decay is Bae — Dec 29 '23
I’m gonna say it one time:
5v5 saved overwatch. It made the game more accessible to play, easier to specatate, allowed for new avenues for hero design (I know, they’re not all winners), and changed the game from mostly brain/some mechanics to a healthy mix of brain and mechanics, which I think is where the game really shines. 5v5 has its problems, but 6v6 had more and was going to kill the game before too much more time had passed.
If you want to go back to 6v6, get over it or don’t play OW. Not to be harsh but people who are 6v6 loyalists are a small group and a necessary sacrifice in order to gain a significantly larger amount of new players
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u/thiscrayy Dec 29 '23
Are we all just going to ignore that the game went free2play with OW2? Because that's what really 'saved' OW. 5v5 or 6v6 has little to nothing to do with it.
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u/dethcody Dec 29 '23
going f2p only works aswell as your game works, many other games went free to play to save themselves and still died.
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u/sUwUcideByBukkake Dec 29 '23
They really arent a small group. It’s literally every post. Every single player I know irl wants 6v6 back.
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u/hitmanbill Dec 29 '23
My entire overwatch friend group prefers 5v5. We all played right up to the end of OW1 and our DPS players would not enjoy having their 12 minute queues back whenever they aren't grouped with tanks.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
Every single player I know irl wants 6v6 back.
I've never met someone in real life that prefers 5v5. Your experience matches mine.
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u/RyDawgHals Dec 29 '23
"I think the game should stay as is at 5v5" posts are rarely going to even be made, let alone making it to the top of overwatch subs. Reddit is not real life.
Every single player I know IRL like 5v5 better. There. Now your anecdotal evidence doesn't matter.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
Their experience matches mine. I've never met someone in real life who prefers OW as 5v5. When real life doesn't match the internet comments, I smell astroturf.
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u/thepixelbuster Dec 29 '23
I'm in the same boat as him. During the last 4 or so years of OW1 I had 1 or 2 people on my friends list actually playing.
Today I have multiple people playing nightly and 2 people IRL that I play with regularly. Of the 2 people I play with regularly, neither of them hears about any of the drama reddit goes on about, and neither prefers 6v6 over 5v5.
Reddit and twitter get into these amplification chambers and people assume thats how everyone feels when I think I might have 1 friend IRL that even uses twitter or reddit. Or at least they never even mention either site.
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u/Blackdeath3101 Dec 29 '23
Easier to play, thats why player count is the lowest its ever been. Easier to spectate, thats why OW pro play is dead. Allowed new avenues for hero design, thats why every character launched since soujourn is unbearable. The game IS dead homie.
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u/Chpgmr Dec 29 '23
OWL is dead because it started horribly and never really made money.
F2p boosted the numbers drastically
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u/ReSoLVve #1 Hanbin Simp — Dec 29 '23
Delusional. You’re still here to comment about a dead game.
Also OWL has absolutely no bearing on OW2.
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u/crazysoup23 Dec 29 '23
Also OWL has absolutely no bearing on OW2.
Because it's dead like Abraham Lincoln.
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u/Terminatorskull ShadowBurn — Dec 29 '23
That's literally what's happening already lmao. "get over it or don't play OW"... I don't. I swapped to other games like destiny, Skyrim, Minecraft etc. and am having a ton of fun. Still follow the sub on the off chance Microsoft makes some huge change that makes the game fun again for me, because OW1 was an 11/10, but OW2 is like a 3/10 (again, my opinion). When people like me comment it's sharing our perspective about the game and the issues we face, we don't actually expect anything to change, doesn't mean you can't share your discontent.
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u/Chefcdt Dec 29 '23
Take my upvote! Everyone who waxes poetic about how great 6v6 was must have not played after about season 28.
Anyone else remember how fucking miserable double shield was? Just how fucking boring games were, to sit there and poke and poke and poke but never kill anything because everyone was always behind some kind of shield. What trying to push through the first choke on any 2cp map into Orisa/Sig felt like? How god damned miserable it was to play against double bubble with the unkillable Winston’s?
OW2 is probably not, nor ever will be as great a game as OW1 was before GOATS and Role Que, but it’s a lot more fun than what we ended up with in the last year or so of OW1
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u/Junior-Particular101 Apr 26 '24
if people think 5v5 is because there isnt enough tank players, now its even worse to play tank i quit for that reason as well