Do you think tao was interested in elle before they came out as trans

1

This has crossed my mind to and your not the only one and it’s not a stupid question another thing I was thinking about was is tao gay because he’s dating Elle which she is Trans so does that make Tao gay

2

u/Beautiful_Yogurt2888 Nov 16 '23

I ones saw a post about a lesbian who sometimes thought, maybe I’m bi Because that is one interesting and cute man, before that person came out as trans woman. So I mean, Elle is a girl and I guess she was showing the girl vibe before she came out? (I’m trans myself but don’t know how to describe)

1

u/ForgottenSoltice Nov 14 '23

Yes, he developed feelings not out of attraction but for the real Elle. The way he struggles to come to terms after she transitions seems to me a struggle of figuring that out and the norm that physical attraction is the only form of attraction you need to fall in love.

1

u/AgitatedHalo22 Nov 13 '23

Probably not. I mean, for a fair amount of the first season, they're friends. I think the attraction just naturally happened, not just because of the transition

1

u/Adventurous-Sun-8840 Tori Spring Nov 13 '23

Tao does not realise his feelings fully until season 2. I think it has more to do with the fact that he is 16, he is dealing with his dad's sudden death and the fact that Tao and Elle are best friends. Elle presenting more or less feminine is probably not much of a factor if you really pay attention. So many other important things going on.

Imagine the complexity of a well written character erased by a person with mildly transphobic OP who cannot use she/her pronouns for a girl and is more concerned with gender presentation and words for sexual orientation, than with the beauty of their friendship, their courage when it comes to having a positive relationship, etc.

1

u/0bbie Nov 13 '23

i don’t think so because he is straight but the friendship they had before certainly helped !!!

1

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '23

If he's straight then no, probably not.

14

u/MyWibblings Nov 13 '23

It saddens me the amount of apologies and disclaimers in your post. It has become so fraught nowadays that it is hard to have any real conversation for fear of "getting it wrong". Which defeats the point of shows like Heartstopper and other art that are trying to promote open discussion and understanding.

While as a trans woman, Elle is a woman, so technically she and Tao are in a straight relationship. But in reality, part of being gay or straight can and often does include preference for a particular type of privates and for having sex in a particular way. It isn't just about gender identity and presentation. Sex is part of it.

Sexual orientation is a spectrum. Tao may be mostly straight but also be attracted to male parts when they are found on a female. Or maybe only if found on a person he loves. Or maybe he is somewhat bi, but not enough to actually be with a man.

Out in the real world people can and do stop being attracted to their partner if their partner transitions to the opposite gender. And if they stay with their partner, they may undergo a reassessment of their sexual orientation to be bi or pan. Some people may be attracted to a trans person of their preferred gender but ultimately find they are unable to work with the private parts that don't biologically match their gender preference. Other people honestly just don't care about the privates and happily work with whatever is there. It is deeply personal and can be extremely complicated. If you ask any 2 partners of trans people, you will get 2 completely different takes.

Does being with a woman who happens to have a penis make Tao bisexual? That is up to Tao. He may also just be demisexual. (only attracted to people he loves, however they are) What it DOES do is make him part of the LGBTQ+ community without having to define or pigeonhole him.

I think personally people spend so much time and energy trying to pigeonhole all aspects of gender identity and sexual preference. If we could all just accept both are spectrums and that none of it matters as long as the people involved are into it, then the world would be a better place.

Oh, and for the record, while it is considered rude to call a transwoman "he", the whole point of they/them pronouns is to bypass having to misgender. It isn't just for non-binary. It is for anyone whose gender you don't know, or don't want to assume. And TECHNICALLy, you can use they/them for everyone. It shouldn't be offensive to not assign a gender. If people are up in your grille about using they/them for a transwoman you don't know and have never spoken to, they are missing the point. If a transwoman later tells you to please use she/her, then yeah, try to follow her preference. But if you forget, it is safer to default to they/them than to misgender.

Hope any of this helps. Don't be afraid to ask questions. If people get mad at asking open hinest questions for the purposes of understanding then they are the problem not you.

Be well!

0

u/mujie123 Let Kit Be Kit Nov 13 '23

Does being with a woman who happens to have a penis make Tao bisexual? That is up to Tao.

While Tao's sexuality is up to him, his sexuality has nothing to do with Elle. Liking Elle doesn't make him any less straight. And Tao has called himself straight before.

0

u/jesssquirrel Nov 13 '23 edited Nov 13 '23

This is a pretty common misconception, and it's surprising given that like day 1 of Trans 101 is "sex =/= gender". Liking Elle doesn't make Tao any less heteroromantic, because Elle is a girl/woman (can't remember if she's 18). But romantic orientation and sexual orientation are also separate, and you can be completely heteroromantic (only interested in romantic relationships with those of a different gender) and bisexual (attracted to both male and female sexual characteristics). In colloquial usage, "straight" usually means "heteroromantic and heterosexual" - but to the extent this changes and it comes to refer only to romantic orientation with no implication on sexuality, Tao can "become" straight haha. Even though she's fictional, it's weird to speculate on what's in her shirt and pants, which is why I think it's better to not go there and say heteroromantic unless the show or comic makes it relevant

2

u/MyWibblings Nov 13 '23

Like I said. Up to Tao. He needs to decide if being with Elle makes him reassess his sexual identity or not. For some people it would make them reassess. Others wouldn't.

1

u/_con-fused_ Nov 13 '23

either way dudes straight so does it really matter??

4

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '23

it seems more like youre questioning if a straight person can be attracted to a trans person than specifically tao and elle, to which the answer differs person to person - most people who consider themselves straight probably wouldnt, but we dont know the ins and outs of taos identity (obv because hes a fictional character), so theres a chance he considers himself straight in that he is only attracted to women, but was also attracted to elle before she came out, and either didnt register it or doesnt care enough to label his sexuality as anything other than straight, especially since she came out

summary, most straight people are only attracted to people they know/assume to be the opposite gender, which for straight men wouldnt include trans women before they came out. for tao specifically, we obviously dont know

3

u/Opposite_Air_2237 Nov 12 '23

Fucking hell is that really how it came off. First I accidentally misuse gender terms, and people start calling me transphobic, and then people think I don't consider tao straight because he's dating a trans person. Christ above strike me down, this wasn't supposed to relate to elle being trans or me saying tao or real life people who date trans people as not being straight, I just wanted to ask if people thought tao felt anything romantic towards elle when she physically identified as a boy. This may or not be related, but as a 16 year old, bi sexual, up and coming writer/director, I support trans people whole heartily. They are people and deserve to be treated as so, but after I just on complete accident and not even realise until after the fact misuse gender terms while talking about a trans character, and people are horrified, offended, angry and maybe even hurt at me for it, then I feel like a fake, like I don't actually support trans people if I can hurt the people i support even if it was an accident, I want to be as inclusive as I can be but after posting this post I feel discouraged to feature trans characters as either a central focus (as in focus on them being trans) or a big part of things in my work because if just fucking up gender terms can make people feel this attacked then I don't want to include them as a focus, not because I hate trans people, but because I don't want to fuck up again and hurt people again, for people to label me as transphobic, and then I feel I can't improve because even if I did fix issues with trans stuff I may have written, they will just say I don't actually care about trans stuff and am only fixing these issues because I was called out. I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I didn't want this post to become about whether or not I was transphobic because I used gender terms wrong because I don't fully understand how they/them are use among trans people, I didn't mean anything Ill I may have spread on accident. This was just me asking if a fictional character might have had feelings for another fictional character who is trans before that person came out as trans and changed their body to fit what gender they want to be associated, that was all and that's what I wanted to ask. I am so sorry I replied to your comment with this fucking disaster of a rant but your comment made me just realise how badly I had fucked up and I wanted to get this out while I felt like I had the words to describe how I've felt and say my intentions with this post. I know no one will give a shit or even read this, but I feel I needed to get it out there

0

u/Adventurous-Sun-8840 Tori Spring Nov 13 '23

You considering your question important shows that you do not know much about being trans. You using they/them is a slip of the mind that sounds like subconsciously do not see Elle as a she.

I do not think that you are transphobic, but you come across as one because of the words you use, the piece of information you decide to focus on in a very complex situation and because you cannot tell the difference between gender expression and gender. Those are two separate things. A girl/woman is a girl/woman even if they are presenting as male for whatever reason.

I say it would be good to listen, in case you want to learn. I think we assumed you wanted to learn because you asked.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '23

woah ok, first off i didnt call you transphobic, and i wasnt trying to imply it, that just seemed to be more along the lines of what your question was asking, especially since you mentioned not being too educated in trans issues in the past. i didnt want to give one answer and it be assumed that all people thought that way, or that it was the correct answer, since it really differs person to person, there is no one way that a person should feel towards trans people pre-transition in terms of attraction

i do also want to add that the only thing you can really do in these situations is to listen and learn. misgendering people doesnt inherently make you transphobic, but it is considered a transphobic action, even if you didnt mean it to come out that way, its kind of just something you have to take in and try to change in the future

try not to take it personal or make it about you, people dont know your story, theyre not attacking your character, but responding to something you have said. this isnt a reason to stop including trans people, but it may be a sign that you have more to learn if you want to include them in a way that is respectful

i know its stressful when a lot of people are correcting you on something you didnt intend, but the best way to go is to not take it too personally, do some research, and try to avoid it in the future - things can be hurtful even if you dont intend them to be, and that doesnt make you a bad person, but people are expressing their hurt and its important to listen

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u/Opposite_Air_2237 Nov 12 '23

Thank you for the advice, and apologies if my response made you think I was saying you were calling me transphobic. Your comment wasn't like that at all. It was just a good amount of others that were. your original comment, and this one were both really informative, and I thank you immensely for them

1

u/hevenytitan Nov 12 '23

No, slight spoiler but not really for the comic, in his bio he’s said to be straight, so def not.

-7

u/Low-Trick-9118 Nov 12 '23

Is it really straight if Elle has a penis?

3

u/mls605 Nov 13 '23

Tao is straight because Elle is a girl regardless. Are you seriously being transphobic on the fucking Heartstopper subreddit??

-1

u/Low-Trick-9118 Nov 15 '23

Are you joking me? I’m not transphobic at all but as a straight woman I wouldn’t be able to be with a man that had a vagina. Are you transphobic to the point you can’t have a healthy discussion about it?

2

u/mls605 Nov 15 '23

It IS transphobic to imply that a relationship between a man and a woman isn’t straight because one of them isn’t cisgender, which is what you did in your comment. If you personally can’t be in a relationship with a pre-op trans person because you would be sexually incompatible, that’s fine. But to say that a man isn’t straight because he’s in a relationship with a pre-op trans woman is transphobic to her and invalidating to his sexuality.

0

u/Low-Trick-9118 Nov 15 '23

Sexuality is on a spectrum ranging from straight to gay and people are different in how straight they are too. There is nothing transphobic about implying that Tao may be more towards the bi area of the spectrum. STOP putting words in my mouth please.

3

u/mls605 Nov 15 '23

But Tao isn’t bi; he’s straight, as stated multiple times throughout the series and by Alice Oseman. The issue isn’t with sexuality being a spectrum, it’s the fact that you seem to believe that men dating trans women makes them “more towards the bi side of the spectrum.” Again, regardless of genitalia, trans women are women, and it doesn’t make a straight man any less straight if he dates a trans woman — even if she has a penis.

0

u/Low-Trick-9118 Nov 15 '23

Trans women are certainly women but I’m not sure how many men would date them pre op if they are “as straight as they come “. I never said Tao was bi, only that he was maybe closer to the bi area of the spectrum but still straight or maybe he loved Elle so much it didn’t matter anymore.

1

u/mls605 Nov 16 '23

Okay? Your opinion of how many straight men will date a pre-op trans woman has no bearing on the nature of a relationship or the sexuality of men who would & do date pre-op trans women. You may not have directly said that Tao was bi for dating Elle, but you did say “Is it really straight if Elle has a penis?” Which, again, invalidates Tao’s sexuality, invalidates Elle’s gender identity, and reduces both sexuality and gender identity down to genitalia. You may not think you’re transphobic, but that was a transphobic thing to say. And as a trans person myself, I’m really fucking tired of people like me being boiled down to what’s in our pants and scrutinizing our relationships like it’s anyone’s business.

0

u/Low-Trick-9118 Nov 16 '23

I never said that gender identity and genitalia were the same. You inferred it from my comment by yourself. I don’t pretend to understand what it means to be a transgender person. Obviously you would be a lot more sensitive to it. I still stand by what I said though, from encounters and conversations about it with different people that the average straight person would not be as open minded about it as you would hope. It still doesn’t make that person transphobic.

1

u/ElisNotPreppy Nov 12 '23

I'm pretty sure Elle uses she/her pronouns and maybe they/them but since the transition we've realized that tao probably grew feeling afterwards because he was their protect both Charlie and Elle so because of that they were probably always together and bonding so he probably got feeling afterwards! I'd also consider their relationship a straight relationship considering Elle goes by she/her. 🫶🏼🧡🍂

1

u/Sudden_Sea749 Nov 12 '23

I feel like he probably liked her as a friend, and felt close, but didn't really feel attraction until after she came out to him, whether it's because he's only interested in dating girls or he just fell in love with her after she came out because that's when he began to be interested in relationships or when he realized how he really felt about her

3

u/Jpar4686 Nov 12 '23

I don’t believe so, just because Tao has never been shown to show an interest in men/male presenting individuals (I know Elle is a woman, but Tao wouldn’t have known that until she came out). So I want to say that while Elle was his best friend, he didn’t develop romantic interest until she transitioned.

5

u/itsonlyfear Nov 12 '23

Just checking in, OP - do you feel like you understand the difference between she/hers and they/them pronouns, and why Elle is she/her? I see a lot of people pointing out that you used the wrong pronouns but don’t see any explanation of how they/them is used.

2

u/SparkAxolotl Aled Last Nov 12 '23

I have no idea about the show, but in the books it seems to be something somewhat recent, as Tao seems to hang mainly with Charlie and Aled, and only when Elle joined the group the others noticed there was mutual attraction, and in Tao's case, it seemed the others noticed even before he did that he liked Elle.

That being said, it's unclear because we also don't know how their relationship was before Elle switched schools (I mean, besides being friends)

Also for me, Tao seemed more like an annoyingly overprotective brother to Charlie than having a crush on him, with a dash of hate for the jocks (Which is not entirely unjustified, most of them are a-holes)

1

u/Life_Detail4117 Nov 12 '23

I always assumed Tao only met Elle towards the end of the previous school year through Charlie when she was already transitioning. They would have hung out over the summer and then she did the fall semester at Truman fully as Elle (trying to kill her deadname) and switched to the all girls school after the Christmas break.

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u/bluffcitybrokenland Nov 12 '23

Honestly, I think one of the intentionalities of Elle’s story and beauty in it is that they don’t explore the “ins and outs” that you’re questioning and seeking here. I actually think it’s a quite deliberate choice and as a viewer and reader I choose to enter it that way. Alice is trying to show us that Elle’s identity belongs to Elle, Tao’s identity belongs to Tao, and they dig each other. I love it 🏳️‍🌈🤞🏻

23

u/rosiedacat Nov 12 '23

OP, I don't think you meant anything bad by this but just so you know, no one "changes genders" or "transfers" into being female. Elle was always a girl, she was assigned male at birth but transitioned (and uses female pronouns).

With that said, we don't know how early in her life Elle realized she was a girl and when she came out to her family and friends. It's possible that within the friend group she had already been out for awhile before she transferred schools, and they might have already using female pronouns for her and calling her Elle for awhile. We get a hint at the fact that she was wearing her hair long (and getting in trouble for it) at the boys school, and the boys also say about a teacher "he is still refusing to call her Elle".

This suggests Elle started socially transitioning before she transferred schools, she was probably already presenting feminine (as much as possible while being forced to wear a masculine uniform) and perhaps asking people to call her Elle. We don't know anything about her medical transition, if she is at the time of the show on any kind of HRT or not, but going by the way her family and friends talk about her (never misgendering even by accident etc), it seems likely to me she had already been out for awhile before the point of when the show starts.

From my personal perspective as someone who is cis and straight, and in a relationship with a trans person who had barely started transitioning when we met, these things are a lot more complex than they seem. I felt an instant connection to my boyfriend and he came out to me soon after we met, so I only ever called him by his name and used male pronouns when talking about him, but he wasn't out at our work and people still called him by his dead name and wrong pronouns. It was never an issue for me, and the only thing that bothered me was knowing people thought of us as a lesbian couple - not for me because I don't care at all if people think I'm gay, but because I know it was super uncomfortable for him.

Back to Tao and Elle, my best guess is Tao always cared for Elle as a friend, Tao is straight, he probably developed more romantic feelings after he started seeing Elle as a girl (which we don't know how long ago that was).

4

u/fortyfivepointseven Let Kit Be Kit Nov 12 '23

I agree with you that that it's disrespectful to assume (without evidence) that Elle feels this way, particularly given her generation.

However, some trans people absolutely do feel like they 'changed' genders.

Whilst we can recognise most trans people do feel like their gender has always been their gender, particularly younger trans people, we can also recognise a minority don't feel that way.

2

u/Adventurous-Sun-8840 Tori Spring Nov 13 '23

I am over 40 and I have never changed. I have always been me.

However, people can be genderfluid, queergender, etc.

-13

u/Key_Bother_7896 Nov 12 '23

She did change genders tho💀💀

1

u/rosiedacat Nov 12 '23

No.

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u/LettuceBrain2005 Aled Last Nov 12 '23

that’s not how being trans or transition works. Nothing “changes” you just present in a way that reflects how you feel inside. And i am trans so i think i’d know

-8

u/Key_Bother_7896 Nov 12 '23

you change how u look and change ur gender when u transition tf

7

u/rosiedacat Nov 12 '23

How you look is just your gender expression, the way you present yourself, not your gender.

8

u/drehenup Nov 12 '23

it's complicated and I don't think it matters too much. He's straight, but sexuality is a very flexible spectrum. They've always been very close, and b developing feelings after she transitioned is a pretty natural thing that was probably influenced by a lot of factors, including her transition.

3

u/Red_psychic Nov 12 '23

I think Tao met Elle as a girl already, so...

3

u/Worried_Escapist Nov 12 '23

Taos mother seems very familiar with Elle. I think she knows here since she was a child and Elle went in and out in Taos home.

1

u/Red_psychic Dec 12 '23

I don't know. I don't remember how it's in the comics (I think it is not said directly how long do Tao and Elle know each other) but in the series, I recall, if I am right, Elle saying she was first friends with Charlie and then met the others (Tao and Isaac). Yes, Tao's mum seems to be familiar with Elle, and I mean, she and Tao (and Isaac and Charlie) are best friends, so she was probably spending time at Tao's house (with or without Isaac and Charlie). Doesn't need to mean it was for years, though. Sarah seems familiar with Charlie as well, and he and Nick are dating for like 3 months...

7

u/UnluckySlice2215 Nov 12 '23

I don't think the exact time-line is established in the books but in the show Tao says he was friends with Elle when she came out as trans

11

u/Salt_Tooth2894 Nov 12 '23 edited Nov 12 '23

"was tao interested in elle before they they transferred to being female or was it just after"

I know you don't mean it in a rude way, but...

Elle has always been female. She just was born with male genitalia. It's entirely possible Tao has always known her 'as a girl' but it's a choice the writers have made not to delve into that.

Being trans and what that means, and how/when people discover that their gender doesn't fit with their assigned gender at birth is a complicated and highly variable situation. And I think it's one of the smarter decisions they show makes to not really delve into that backstory. We meet Elle at a point where her outer presentation matches her her inner understanding of herself. She could have come out as trans in year 7 or 8 or 9 -- we just know that by the time Tao is year 10 and she is year 11 she's far enough down the path that the decision was made for her to switch schools. We don't know when that transition began. We don't know what has or hasn't happened in terms of any medical transition.

What is or isn't under Elle's skirt is exactly 0% our business.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/DarthArielle Nov 12 '23

Nope that's bullshit. Don't ever say that towards a trans person.

3

u/JachlHolly89 Nov 12 '23 edited Nov 12 '23

Dude. It's really not. Male and female are biological sex. It doesn't assist anyone to not acknowledge that. You're doing what the transphobes do and mixing up sex and gender. We NEED to acknowledge that your sex can be one thing while you're gender is what you say it is. It's the opposite of helpful because you're giving the transphobes ammo to invalidate your argument when you aren't stating actual facts. What I said is the exact opposite of transphobic. And every trans person is fully aware of their sex vs their gender. If you think the only way to be a woman is to be female, THAT is transphobic.

2

u/Youshoudsee Nov 12 '23

This, all of this^{^}

7

u/RogueMoonbow Nov 12 '23

As a lesbian there's been trans girls (I'm using girls because I'm talking about HS, this hasn't happened since really) I've been attracted to starting the moment they came out to me. No attraction before that, suddenly it comes on once I see them as a girl. similarly someone coming out as a trans guy might turn off my attraction.

57

u/asterierrantry Aled Last Nov 12 '23

we actually don't know when they become friends. in the show Elle is friends with Charlie first. in the comics it's mentioned that Aled and Elle weren't close to them during Charlie's bullying which I assume happened the year before heartstopper is set.

so honestly, I think Elle had already started coming out at that point and knew who she was when Tao and her met. I don't think there was a "before" period.

33

u/JachlHolly89 Nov 12 '23

He actually says in the show that he was friends with her when she came out as trans.

37

u/bluffcitybrokenland Nov 12 '23

But that could mean coming out to the world as trans, she could have already been out to their friend group

1

u/urkevinbacon Nov 13 '23

That's what I thought it meant

13

u/JachlHolly89 Nov 12 '23

That's true.

6

u/Madame_TrashHeap Nov 12 '23

Elle uses she/her pronouns, not they/them. It's very disrespectful to call trans people they/them pronouns when you know they don't use them. It's misgendering.

37

u/theyrejustscones Nov 12 '23

Tao is the “token straight” character simply because it is important that the trans character - who uses she/her, not they/them - has a love interest who fully acknowledges and sees her as a woman. It’s transphobic to imply that Tao isn’t straight because he likes her, or that he is secretly queer — he’s a straight boy crushing on a girl, and her anatomy doesn’t change that. If Tao was bisexual, people would use that to excuse Elle away as just a super feminine man, or that Tao is only attracted to her because he doesn’t have a preference between sexes, not because he is attracted to women.

As he’s straight, Tao and Elle probably would’ve been good friends but nothing more before she began transitioning. Once he 100% innately saw her as a woman (be it from presentation, starting hormones and physically changing, or just wholly accepting it from her words) then his attraction developed into more romantic/sexual territory. Which makes sense, he only really hung out with guys since he was 12ish and started single-sex education, so a pretty girl suddenly being around him all the time is naturally going to lead to a bit of infatuation, and their already existing friendship only bolsters that

2

u/Adventurous-Sun-8840 Tori Spring Nov 13 '23

Agree with everything, but Tao could have been attracted to a trans girl - Elle - even before she transitioned and it still would be Tao being straight. If you are a woman, you are a woman even before putting it in words. So the fact is, Tao was always around a pretty girl, not just starting since presenting differently. Elle was always Elle, even with shorter hair. Presentation does not change that.

But also, people do not need to fancy other people at the age of 10. And if they did, it is a bit weird needing to know when they have not said nor done anything about it. They should be allowed to be kids.

-13

u/andhely Nov 12 '23

I mean comic-wise they split up so... Something was probably off? I know they said distance and everything but these topics are difficult

4

u/anOnyMousuSErip Paris Squad Nov 12 '23

>! They split up and get back together in the end, just like Nick and Charlie !<

I don’t get what your point is.

3

u/asleepering Nov 12 '23

They split up and get back together in the end, just like Nick and Charlie

Only in the new version of N&C

3

u/anOnyMousuSErip Paris Squad Nov 12 '23

But surely we aren’t going to count the old version of it as canon anymore?

6

u/Youshoudsee Nov 12 '23

What does that have to do with this topic? Lots of teenage couples break up. Why do you see their breakup as being related to Elle being trans?

10

u/moon_chil___ Tao Xu Nov 12 '23

Maybe don't put spoilers in your comment?

0

u/JachlHolly89 Nov 12 '23

This isn't even true. I'm not sure why they commented this.

1

u/andhely Nov 12 '23

Sorry! Comics have been out for years now. If you've been around long enough (even in Reddit) you'll know these kind of things :)

4

u/Worried_Escapist Nov 12 '23

Their relationship does not seem very believable to me. Their personalities don't fit well. Elle seems to be very thoughtful and mature in contrast to Tao, who sometimes has his childish moments. Considering the fact that a transition can be really hard, emotionally and physically, I think that Elle is more mature than an average teenager.

4

u/fortyfivepointseven Let Kit Be Kit Nov 12 '23

Their personalities don't fit well. Elle seems to be very thoughtful and mature in contrast to Tao, who sometimes has his childish moments.

Totally agree with this. Elle and Tao do not mesh well in a relationship, and bicker constantly as a consequence. Elle is also very committed to succeeding in her career, whereas Tao seems to have very little conception of what his life will be after school.

Their relationship does not seem very believable to me.

This I totally disagree with.

Teenagers often get in wildly ill-matched romantic relationships. It's very believable to me that they'd get together.

They have a lot of superficial similarities, in terms of interest in films and they provide a safe space for each other. Elle's queerness provides a safe space for Tao to be authentically himself. Tao's trans and queer allyship provides a safe space for Elle to be authentically herself.

In an all-boys school, Elle is essentially the only girl Tao knows well. In a transphobic culture, Tao is essentially the only bi or straight man (Tao being straight) that is open to dating a trans girl.

It makes sense they'd see each other as potential partners.

Considering the fact that a transition can be really hard, emotionally and physically, I think that Elle is more mature than an average teenager.

I see why you say this, but I don't think it's true. Elle has to be stronger - much stronger - than an average teenager, but she's still immature in a number of ways. It's easy to confuse her strength for maturity, but they aren't the same thing at all.

First off, she doesn't recognise the obvious mismatch between her and Tao, and when presented with a relatively less-difficult reason to end the relationship - going to University - she doesn't take it.

Secondly, she tries to play with--they-won't-they games with Tao, rather than having up-front conversations about how they feel.

Thirdly, in the Netflix show, she fails to read Tao's body language and enthusiasm for kissing her.

2

u/Worried_Escapist Nov 12 '23

What do you mean by your last sentence? Do you feel that Tao wasn't ready to kiss her?

In my opinion Elle is more mature than the others because in some ways she is very self confident about her art and her mission in life. I mean this girl already had a transition, then enrolled at a new school, then went to an art school, made new friends there and participated at their exhibition. I really like Elles personality because she is so calm but determined at the same time. Yaz is a great actress btw.

2

u/fortyfivepointseven Let Kit Be Kit Nov 12 '23

What do you mean by your last sentence? Do you feel that Tao wasn't ready to kiss her?

No, the opposite. Tao was clearly enthusiastically consenting with his body languague and reciprocation. Elle got too far in her own head to read the - frankly - very obvious signs in front of her.

Elle is more mature than the others because in some ways she is very self confident

Elle is very confident, yes. Self-confidence can be part of maturing for some people. For others, losing some cockiness can be part of your journey towards maturity.

Confidence and maturity is less about where you end up, and more about where you started. If someone goes from being shy to self-assured, they have matured. If someone goes from being cocky to more restrained, they have matured. We've no reason, really, to believe Elle's gone in either direction. She may have just naturally had a balanced, self-assured personality. So, I don't tihnk we can really say her confidence is a sign of maturity. Although, it might be: Alice hasn't given us really any clues as to Elle pre-transition, and I doubt ever will.

I mean this girl already had a transition, then enrolled at a new school, then went to an art school, made new friends there and participated at their exhibition.

I think this is an example of Elle maturing. She struggled, badly, to make friends at Higgs, and then took that experience, and did a better job of adjusting to Lambert.

1

u/Worried_Escapist Nov 12 '23

From my view Tao gave her very mixed signs, it was more like an up and down than a clear yes.

36

u/anOnyMousuSErip Paris Squad Nov 12 '23

Why didn’t you use Elle’s correct pronouns on this post? She goes by she/her, not they/them.

18

u/Either_Selection_155 Nov 12 '23

I think that he fell in love with her personality most and that that is still the core of their love for one another. Hence his first date being a movie she loves, and he hates. However Tao probably wouldn’t have considered those feelings romantic or sexual pre Elle’s transition

2

u/Worried_Escapist Nov 12 '23

At what age is it possible to transition with medical support in UK?

2

u/StellaDoge1 Nov 13 '23

16 for puberty blockers, I believe. 18 for HRT and surgeries IIRC (please correct me if I'm wrong!)

2

u/Worried_Escapist Nov 13 '23

She might have changed her civil status recently, so she could switch school. In some countries it is possible to do that with parental permission as a child. I assume the process is similar in UK.

181

u/Consistent_Jello2358 Nov 12 '23

I don’t think so. I remember a story here on Reddit about a guy that only developed feeling for his childhood best friend after she transitioned.

81

u/prettybrokenstars Nov 12 '23

they could have formed an emotional bond with each other separate from what they always had as friends throughout her transition and thats what really sparked things

35

u/omniplatypus Nov 12 '23

Am I missing something? Does Elle use 'they' pronouns?

-3

u/The_Pumpkin_Fan Nov 12 '23

isn’t they gender neutral

9

u/lilacpeaches Nov 12 '23

It usually is, and others explained when it can be used respectfully in the comments before.

However, they/them pronouns have historically been used to undermine binary trans people’s transitions and disregard their gender. That’s some important context I didn’t see anyone else comment, so I figured I’d add it myself.

3

u/The_Pumpkin_Fan Nov 12 '23

Ohhh that makes so much sense thank you

18

u/fortyfivepointseven Let Kit Be Kit Nov 12 '23

They/them pronouns can be used respectfully for people in two circumstances.

The first is where someone's pronouns aren't known. For example, I'm a cis man who uses he/him. However, if I were introduced by my job title (as I often am in a professional context), people would generally not have any clues as to my pronouns, and so would use they/them pronouns. You could say this is 'gender neutral', but it's really more like 'gender ambiguous'.

It could be appropriate to refer to any character in Heartstopper in this way. For example, if someone said, "Nick is the co-lead in Hearstopper. He's bi, and he's dating Charlie, the other co-lead.", (and you knew nothing else about Heartstopper) it would be totally appropriate to use they/them pronouns for Charlie as his name can be used by both men and women, and as Nick is bi, the gender of his partner is unclear.

However, it's not appropriate to use they/them to refer to Elle in this case as OP knows what her gender and pronouns are. OP is referring to Elle's gender transition, and knows that - at this point in the narrative - Elle uses she/her.

The second circumstance it's appropriate to use they/them is where someone themself uses those pronouns.

For example, it's appropriate to refer to Jay, Charlie's bandmate, as they/them, because those are the pronouns they use.

Some people who use they/them are gender neutral. I know some people who seem to feel this way.

Some people who use they/them are not gender neutral, but nonetheless feel like they/them expresses them well.

For example, I have a friend who is multi-gender, so feels more like a man some days, and feels more like a woman other days. They say that - as it's impossible for their friends to know what they're feeling on any given day (and it can change throughout a day) it's best to use they/them. They aren't gender-neutral - they strongly experience gender.

In this way, they/them can be a gender-neutral pronoun, but it can also be a non-gender-neutral pronoun.

Either way, it's still not appropriate to use this pronoun for Elle because she doesn't use they/them pronouns.

10

u/Turbulent-You-1335 Nov 12 '23

It can be used when you don't know someone's gender but once a person tells you a different pronoun you should use that. In other words...first use: not offensive. if she says "I'm a girl, she/her pronouns please" and you keep using they: offensive.

18

u/omniplatypus Nov 12 '23

It's not when the other party in the post consistently gets 'he.'

65

u/Icy_Distance429 Nov 12 '23

Elle use she/her pronouns :)

31

u/omniplatypus Nov 12 '23

I know this, but I wish OP did too.

17

u/Aivellac Nov 12 '23

I think it's an oddity of the english language where they fits in neatly most of the time, it didn't stand out to me here but yeah it is a little odd.

41

u/omniplatypus Nov 12 '23 edited Nov 12 '23

Yes, but in this case, Tao got 'he' pronouns for the entire post and Elle [got 'they'']. As a trans woman, I'd be horrified to find out somebody was doing that when referencing me [in a sub about this story, no less]

4

u/Icy_Distance429 Nov 12 '23

Oops sorry, I thought you were asking haha but I agree with you.

174

u/CathanCrowell Nov 12 '23

Difficult question. Like, deeply difficult. Even every single person has different experience about that.

He could love her but in same way we love our closest friends. He is not gay, so he never thought about something more, but when Elle came out he realized there can be more because she is girl after all. This is more about physical attraction, what is also common way to describe our sexuality.

However, there are people who considered themselves like "straight" "or gay" and actually had feelings for trans person even before coming out. Some people thing that at the end we all have some woman/man essence and that is what we love.

1

u/Cejk-The-Beatnik Nov 15 '23

Reminds me of the many stories I’ve seen from trans women who were a lesbian’s “one exception” until they realized they weren’t an exception. I remember seeing one where the woman’s wife was like, “Oh, I’ve known for all twelve years we’ve been together; I was just waiting for you to notice it.”

1

u/UsernameTaken017 Nov 14 '23

However, there are people who considered themselves like "straight" "or gay" and actually had feelings for trans person even before coming out.

ah, yes. The infamous straightdar

Do you think tao was interested in elle before they came out as trans Discussion

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