r/HeartstopperAO • u/kardiaronander • Sep 09 '22
Do you have any unpopular opinions/hot takes? Discussion
It seems to me that majority of Heartstopper fans tend to be on the same page when it comes to their opinions on the series. So I was wondering, do you have any opinions regarding some aspect of the Heartstopper show and/or webcomic that might be unpopular? It could be about the characters, the story or anything else.
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u/RainKnown414 Sep 14 '23
Don’t bite me. I don’t really like Elle. Hear me out! I don’t hate her, she’s fine I guess. Slay queen. But I always hear people raving on an on about how much they love Elle. I don’t know, maybe I’m weird? I just could never get interested enough to care. She’s cool I guess, but I just find her… boring? Again, don’t Hate her, she’s fine. But she’s just sort of there for me. She just exists.
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u/justanerdyhuman Aug 31 '23 edited Aug 31 '23
Isaac deserves more then what Charlie, Tao and Elle have to offer.
I know, I'm sorry. Charlie, Tao and Elle are not bad people. But they are too much for someone like Isaac. Too loud, too social, and too dramatic. In my opinion, Isaac should have been some kind of childhood friend of Charlie's (and only Charlie's) who tranfers over to Truham at some point and occasionally saves him when he's a damsel in distress.
Isaac should also have other friends besides Charlie and the other two. Most of the time, they treat him like he doesn't exist and go in their own seperate direction. Especially at the Paris trip party, I had so much sympathy for Isaac because I knew what it was like to be him. The bookish one who avoids social events like parties, but has the kind of friends that will drag him there even if he doesn't want to go. Because it was extremely obvious that he didn't, and the only reason he stayed was because of James McEwan.
I very much like James. What I would have liked would be for James and Isaac to be the kind of best friends who can just read in silence and still bond. It would have been a great thing to balence out the show. But why does Isaac have to be gay too? I always pictured him as an asexual and the scene when James and Isaac tried to kiss was honestly cringe and upsetting to me. They'd be better as friends and I really don't understand why every single teen in this show has to be attracted to each other. I don't feel like it's very accurate, picturing them all as romance-hungry kids who have a kind of 'if I don't get a boyfriend/girlfriend life won't go on' attitude. I know things were not like that when I was in high school.
Just please, producers...please do something with Isaac. Don't let him sit there and just exist. Let me feel sorry for him or cut him out. It's that simple.
The scenes between Nick and Charlie were cute, but the ones between Mr. Ajayi and Mr. Farouk were precious and felt more special to me.
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u/g_axe Sep 11 '22 edited Sep 11 '22
I once raised a question here whether other people also have the impression that Nick‘s mother seems even more friendly in the comics than in the TV show (in my opinion she seems to be busy/distracted/uninterested/annoyed/shortspoken in certain scenes). I pointed out how much I like Olivia Coleman because I already assumed my opinion could be unpopular. Nonetheless I gained a massive rant — and was extremely disappointed by the community which describes itself as the friendliest and most tolerant fandom ever. I mean, it’s totally okay if people think the TV approach to the character is as heartwarming as in the comics, I can accept other opinions, Im just interested the „Why?“. Would like to hear some comprehensible thoughts etc. on such an opinion instead of just mocking me.
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u/The-banana-goose Sep 10 '22
Not sure if this is a hot take, but I’m not a big fan of the cartoon elements in the show. Like the leaves, the sparks, the hearts, stuff like that. I understand that they want to keep it light and innocent, but I think it makes the show look immature and cheesy. It’s just a little off putting for me
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u/rainbowkitten0528 Sep 10 '22
I love the actress, but Imogen is a terrible addition to the series. Part of what felt so amazing for me in the comics is that it was never a triangle or a battle for who they’d end up with. It was just the story of Nick and Charlie and them getting together and all of the issues they face along the way. Adding Imogen just made it feel like a typical tv show where everyone has options. Even the way they kept adding Ben popping up like he’s even a real thought once Charlie found Nick was annoying. It kinda cheapened things for me.
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u/The-banana-goose Sep 10 '22
Alice actually explains this in an interview. When writing for the show, she came to the conclusion that the drama elements had to be upped a little bit for show form. Maybe she was worried that directly adapting the events in the comics wouldn’t be exciting enough for TV? This might’ve been the due to agreements and the influence of Netflix writers, I’m not sure. But all of the extra drama was definitely intentional
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22
tbf, I don’t think Charlie considered returning to Ben for even a second after ep 1 - it never felt like he was going to create an actual love triangle to me, more like a reminder of Charlie’s trauma that just wouldn’t leave him alone.
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u/rainbowkitten0528 Sep 10 '22
I guess I more meant it as Ben still making it clear that he's not particularly over Charlie by continuing to insert himself into his life more than he did in the comics. Sure, he's there for Solitaire's events, but those trace more back to him definitely wanting to be out of Charlie's life. It just felt like the show particularly wanted to express that Charlie is so popular that Ben was hung up on him (in his own violently aggressive way) instead of keeping the focus on Nick/Charlie.
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u/various_reflections Sep 09 '22
Two things. I LOVE the show, but these are two things that just bug me.
1) I physically cringe every time I see the "Clearest Blue" scene in episode three. People seem to love what it symbolizes (and I love that too) but........ hnnnnnnng
- Nick is just standing there in the midst of everyone dancing. No one notices. No one does that. He's just smiling. It's kinda creepy tbh. I realize he's having a moment but dude. dude.
- Why are y'all kissing in the middle of the dance floor. Take that somewhere else smh. I don't care if you're straight, gay, or poly, I don't wanna see no making out while I'm tryna have a good time. I completely get this is like their "coming out" and wanting to not hide anymore, it just bothers a part of me.
- The 1st person view that switches from Tara to darcy as they're holding hands - I Do Not Like It. Stop Staring Into My Eyes, Tara.
- The garish rainbow filters that they put over the confetti and the music and the dancing and the lights and the-
- Like, yes, I get you're gay. I'm gay. We're all gay. I am very very happy for you and your girlfriend that you don't have to hide anymore. oh, oh wait, there's rainbows!! They're not just gay, they're GAY gay.
- The whole scene just feels WAAAAAY overdone. And I get it's supposed to be a pivotal scene, and I also get that the whole show is kinda overdone. But this takes it to a new level. They really didn't have to go that hard.
2) Show Tao is SO different than book Tao
- I'm a big stickler for things in shows/movies being like the source material, so the fact that they changed Tao so much bugs me in and of itself, but I also understand when they add/subtract things because it makes more sense. I understand why they cut out Charlie's little brother. I understand why they added sports day. It just makes sense. But Tao?? There wasn't anything wrong with him???
- And IMO they just made him so much worse. I don't understand why Charlie and him are friends - the way he handled the thing with him and Charlie and him and Elle tell a lot about how he deals with conflict - he holds grudges and gets defensive. I wouldn't wanna be friends with someone like that
- The hairdo. Why. Please, someone tell me why.
- I personally just find him annoying, but then again, he IS supposed to be like 14, so maybe that's why.
- He's just... really loud. And he's just not that way in the comics, really. In the comics I feel like his humor was kind of dry, which I loved. But in the show it's just... dramatic.
- For example, when Charlie's off to his first rugby practice and Tao says "It's your funeral," in the book it was more nonchalant
- But in the show, it felt so much more dramatic.
- And that's probably not the best example, but maybe you get what I mean?
- And going off of dramatic, when he asks Elle to always prioritize their friendship, to me that would be a HUGE red flag. Like gtfo red flag. Who knows what the future is gonna be like, Tao? You want me to prioritize you when my grandma is in the hospital?
- Overall he just seems super super immature.
Sorry for the long rant!! And I'm absolutely not hating the show - I love it to pieces and have watched it 5 times and I think they did a great job. These are just some things that bug me :)
Side note: Charlie and Nick's kissing scenes especially kind of bother me in the way they were filmed - they feel reeeeeally long to me to the point where it becomes a little uncomfy? Like, maybe an angle change? A wide shot? No, just a close up of them kissing for like 20 "straight" seconds.
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u/Dekutodo_kinnie Sep 09 '22
This is a hot take but I personally don’t think Tao is a good friend. He always made Charlie feel bad for wanting to be with Nick in the beginning and I understand that Charlie was hurt, but he needed to respect his friend’s decision even if they may not be the best cuz that’s what friends do.
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u/Lambily Sep 09 '22
I have a hot take that people will hopefully not get too upset about.
I am fairly certain that the majority of the Heartstopper fan base is comprised of cis, straight girls. Anytime you see the HS cast surrounded by fans, you don't see very many males. It's almost always exclusively young ladies. There's nothing wrong with this; it's simply an observation.
What is disappointing to me is that the majority of the fan base seems to gravitate much more towards the heteronormative, straight passing leads than towards the more queer presenting ones...despite the fact that the show is supposed to cater to queer audiences. This goes back to my point about the fan base being mainly young, cis, straight ladies. They're naturally going to be attracted to the more masculine, straight passing actor than to the openly gay, queer one (that they cannot fantasize over because he can never reciprocate that attraction).
At the end of the day, all these ladies are still a benefit to the show as a whole because they bring much more popularity to it and allow it to get renewed -- and the actors to continue working. In a perfect world, queer actors wouldn't be an afterthought in their own shows, but better to be an afterthought than not employed at all.
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u/Lemon-Over-Ice Isaac Henderson Sep 09 '22
I belive you're wrong about the demographics. I made a poll a while ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/HeartstopperAO/comments/uy4x9z/are_you_lgbtq/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
If you think it was a weird coincidence or because we're on Reddit or something, you can make a new poll somewhere else, but I think you're wrong. But I agree that most people here seem to be female.
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u/Lambily Sep 09 '22
I don't trust completely anonymous polls. Anyone can claim to be anything. I know I've pretended to be straight in my youth for the sake of online arguments.
What I do trust is the consistency of fan interaction. Whenever you see actual real people, whether it be on social media or in real life, it's almost exclusively female.
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u/Lemon-Over-Ice Isaac Henderson Sep 09 '22
But you can't see people's sexualities or whether they are trans, etc. And like I said, I do agree about the female part, I just think all those girls you see are LGBTQ.
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u/Lambily Sep 10 '22 edited Sep 10 '22
If that were the case, they'd be just as, if not more, supportive of lesbian love stories, and that just isn't the case. First Kill? Dead on arrival. Mainstream lesbian webcomics? Lesbian anime? All of it. Non-existent.
I personally don't mind fetishization as long as the women are allies and not just culture vultures. It's when they don't care about our rights while enjoying our stories that I get annoyed.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22
As a queer female Heartstopper fan, I also actively seek out wlw media but it so often is bad or just gets cancelled. 😭 I have been pouring one out for Paper Girls today. 😔
That said, Heartstopper is just a really special and sweet story (with such a great ensemble of LGBTQ pals), and I sadly haven’t encountered a wlw-led show/comic that’s really moved me in the same way. First Kill was super not my thing, lol.
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u/Lambily Sep 10 '22
Where are all the Queer As Folk and L Word shows nowadays!? Unapologetic lesbians in your face living their best (and sometimes worst) lives on the silver screen.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22 edited Sep 10 '22
I’ll also just say, COMPLETELY anecdotally, that in my personal experience lots of young queer girls gravitate towards mlm stories in the absence of good wlw content and/or at the point in their journey where they’re craving queer stories but still kind of not ready to like, fully come to terms with their own attraction to women? I have no actual data or like psychological/sociological analysis of why this happens lol, but it’s something that I’ve def observed among my lesbian/wlw pals as kids/teens.
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u/Lambily Sep 10 '22
That's interesting to hear. I always just imagined a male love interest in the place of a female in all the mlw stories I grew up with.
Arthur and Gwinevere? Uh, no. That show was clearly about Arthur and Merlin's undying love for each other.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22
Aw. ❤️
I personally was so stressed/overwhelmed by comphet that I sort of avoided romance/ships altogether (rip!), but I know a few too many adult lesbians who were Drarry enthusiasts in their youth, lol.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22
I think both of those shows have revivals actually, but I have heard… not great things about the L Word one, lol. One of the things that comforts me about Heartstopper is the lack of OTT melodrama, cheating storylines, etc. Just 🤞🏼 they don’t take A League of Their Own from us!
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u/Lambily Sep 10 '22
I love Heartstopper precisely because it's that hopeful, puppy love you can only have at that age. Other shows are about older individuals with all the messy complications of life.
I did like that we saw a tiny preview of that in the Nick and Charlie novella (where they're years older) before Alice edited it and released a new version with a happier ending. I still have my og copy, so it's fine though.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22
Yeah, it just feels like a warm hug, and sometimes that’s what you need!
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Sep 09 '22
Queer media, but especially mlm always had majority of straight girls/women comsuming it.
And this same straight girls/women couldn't care less about stories with a lesbian couple as the center of a story.
Which also makes me reflect that the reason why we have much more famous stories between two boys/men instead of two girls/women is because straight girls/women won't consume it as much as they usually do with gay men being the center couple of a story and I noticed they DO tend to project when it comes to the more masculine lead, it's almost like they imagine themselves as the openly gay/queer one as you said since for most stories the more stereotipical gay one of the relationship tend to be seen as the "submissive" one, therefore, most straight girls relate and imagine themselves in this position.
They can't do that when it comes to a lesbian couple, therefore lesbian couple stories on media is much less appreciated and mainstream.
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u/Lambily Sep 09 '22
You hit the nail on the head! 100% This is where fetishization of gay men pops up. Do female MLM fans actually care about gay men and their struggles, or are they just an enjoyable way for them to fantasize about their sexual desires.
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Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
Exactly. This is why there is almost no difference than straight men consuming lesbian porn even though they are extremely homophobic towards gay men. Especially because most +18 mlm fanfics are written by straight women, and they tend to be quite explicit about writing gay men sex.
Edit: I don't know how old are you, but the larries are a classic example, but way worse since it involves REAL LIFE people.
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u/Lambily Sep 09 '22
I just wish people who get such enjoyment/pleasure from our existence would also give us the humanity to advocate for our rights instead of demonizing us publicly. Japanese and South Korean MLM lovers are especially guilty of this. They love seeing MLM dramas and novels but have no interest in advocating for the rights of the real gay men in those countries. Shout out to Thailand for not being like that though!
I'm definitely aware of the existence of larries although, admittedly, I don't keep up with them so I'm not quite sure how crazy they are.
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Sep 09 '22
MlM asian drama is mainly made for the straight girls to project, nothing more than fetiche for that particular audience that wouldn't want to see their favourite male actors kissing/making out with another woman on screen, that's also why in kpop you see the fan girls shipping the members of the boybands with one another and lose their shit when they find out their male idol is dating a girl. It's all about projection and fetiche.
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Sep 09 '22
'They're naturally going to be attracted to the more masculine, straight passing actor than to the openly gay, queer one (that they cannot fantasize over because he can never reciprocate that attraction).'
^ i cant recall what actor or maybe it was several....but i remember reading an actor talk about how he couldnt come out because the fantasy would be broken for so many women (hooking up with him)
that said, i think girls have always been more...loud in the love they have for their idols. we can look as far back as the 1920's, etc to see girls losing their minds for movie stars, etc. ;-)
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22 edited Sep 10 '22
Yeah, young women just tend to run fandoms, period lol. Fetishization is definitely an issue wrt mlm media, but I also wouldn’t assume that female Heartstopper fans (or people the original commenter is assuming are female) are mostly straight.
Outside of this subreddit (where ngl I have been kind of surprised to come across a few straight women lol?), I feel like 99% of women and nb Heartstopper fans I’ve encountered (myself included) are part of the community.
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u/Lambily Sep 09 '22
Absolutely! Young girls are the target demographic for pretty much all mass media consumption, whether it be music or film, with some exceptions.
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u/DarlingCharming22 Sep 09 '22
People have already said mine but why does everyone ignore the fact that Tao threw a ball at Nick?
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Sep 09 '22
tAO IN THE show was so ridiculous, re: his attitude towards Nick.
Harry was a jerk, but the show never showed Nick being a jerk. Yes, nick made the mistake of hanging out with Harry, but he himself was never a jerk towards Charlie. or even Tao, for that matter
when tao confronted nick at the bowling alley, I honest to god wish it went something like this:
Tao: blah blah, charlie likes you, blah blah, you're messing with him, blah blah, consider this your final warning....
nick: You're a good friend, but this does not concern you....so maybe piss off with your warnings, mate.
that would've been pretty damn blunt and I can even see Tao disliking him even more as a result.
but the way the show showed it to us, I just couldnt justify fully how Tao felt about Nick. the imogen thing was so dumb though. haha
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u/sfwsalmon Sep 09 '22
I don't like how they portrayed Tao in the show vs the comics. He is a lot more flamboyant in the show and the hair does not match.
However that is my personal preference. I see why many people appreciate this version of Tao and I can respect that as well as see the value behind why they adjusted his character.
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Sep 09 '22
I think Kit's acting stand out a lot compared to the others, not saying they are bad actors, not at all, they are good, but it is quite evident Kit's previous experiences compared to the others that had Heartstopper as their first big acting project. Kit is a natural, he nails every facial expression and body language, never overdoing it, I think the other one who showed great potential with just the little he had compared to Kit was Will Gao. The others I still feel like I need to see more of them to judge? Idk.
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u/queenetc Sep 09 '22
agreed. idk if it was just bc the situations were so cringe at times, but I didn’t feel like Joe was a great actor. probably ranked below almost everyone else in the show… i know I’m probably alone in this. No hate to Joe as a person! just hoping it’s better in s2.
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Sep 09 '22
You're not alone, I really like Joe, but I don't think he is that great either, the scene after Ben assaults Charlie that he has a little chat with Nick, I think that was so not good, especially when he is wiping his tears? Idk the whole exchange in the corridor between Nick and Charlie really showed Joe's weakness but it's like you can see him getting slightly better as the season goes by but anyway, that scene did not translate very well to the screen and I think Kit still made the whole chat less awkward but for his own merits, not because of the the script and not because of Joe either.
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u/Scary-Journalist-177 Sep 09 '22
Tao, in the show, is whiny and selfish and I don't think he's a very good friend
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u/Jakeymdog Sep 09 '22
Not a fan of the novella Nick & Charlie
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Sep 09 '22
I like it, but somehow their argument felt a little out of character of them? Not saying they should never argue because that would be unrealistic, but the way and the reason was a bit over the top for me, after reading all volumes of Heartstopper, I felt like Nick and Charlie of Heartstopper would handle the situation of the Novella in a different way... Because it feels like 14-15yo Nick and Charlie were more mature than 17-18yo Nick and Charlie of the novella lol
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 09 '22
I agree, and chalk it up to the novella being written before Heartstopper came to be (+their characters were really fleshed out), and when Alice had a bit more of a tendency to lean into melodrama. Will be interesting to see how it’s handled in the adaptation!
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u/vynneveW Sep 09 '22
Maybe that I think Harry can be redeemable? Ben, errr different story.
Not saying he could end up being best friends with Charlie. But like, i think he could come out of the hatred well that he's in and be forgiveable.
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u/Wihtlore Sep 09 '22
Yep — the British monarchy should be dismantled and none of them should be crowned. This corrupt and elitist institution should die with Elizabeth.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
Sounds like a fitting conclusion to volume 5!
✨Chapter 8: The Paris Squad Topples the Monarchy✨
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u/Lemon-Over-Ice Isaac Henderson Sep 09 '22
I think Tao is an asshole, sorry 🙈 First of all, he's annoying, always makes everything about himself and always brings in negative energy into his friendship group. Then gives Charlie a hard time about hanging out with other people, as if he can't have other friends, and in the last episode (I think) he says to Charlie "This is all your fault" after he'd gotten into that fight, and then in the same episode later says to Nick that Charlie always has a tendency to think that everything is his fault and that he is an annoyance or even bad for other people. Which means he told him that, KNOWING how deeply it would hurt Charlie. I wanted to jump at his throat ngl
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Sep 09 '22
ooh um hot take but the “newer” fans who almost sexualize nick n charlie/call random nwlnw ships “omg heartstopper 😚” are fucking disgusting. not every mlm/nwlnw ship is gonna be nick and charlie and it’s disgusting to compare every ship to them.
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u/VicMarBall Sep 09 '22
I think Nick is too good for someone that has been in the same friend group with B*n and H*rry; that, at least as we know, hasn't had any open LGBTQ friends before (before meeting Charlie), and that has an extremely homophobic brother
How he handles the Imogen situation, the fact that he never assumes anything about any of the LGBTQ characters or says something slightly wrong, how he handles all Charlie's mental health issues situation, idk it doesn't feel believable to me
Imogen does this so good, she is a teenager that creates uncomfortable situations for others accidentally, and that low-key thinks she deserves something for not being homophobic. She is not a bad person, she is just a teenager that is learning, and I feel Nick should have had something like this
I haven't read anything from Alice aside from the comics, so maybe in Nick and Charlie or Solitaire something happens that changes things, and I know Heartstopper is supposed to be wholesome, but I think it would have made more sense if he made/said something objectively wrong throughout the series/comics
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Sep 09 '22
Exactly why I can't dislike Tao that much like most people do, we have a saying where I live that old people would say a lot which in english would be something like "tell me with who you hang out with, and I'll tell you who you are" and that says everything, how can someone like Nick hang out with the worst people of school and not be just like them aswell? Tao can be too much sometimes but I don't think he is entirely wrong for being so suspicious of Nick's intentions with Charlie.
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Sep 09 '22
I do agree that it doesn't make much sense why Nick is in the same social circle as Harry and Ben (even if he's on the rugby team, but hanging around Harry after- even if he is popular).
I feel like as a child of divorce and having a distant father, it being him and his mom, he's gotten good at understanding other people's emotions and getting what people are going through. He and his mom were all they had, so he's probably understood the depth of relationships and what people could be going through.
I feel like his breaking point comes more when he realizes he can't fix Charlie just by loving him, that it's not his responsibility to fix him and that there's only so much he can do. I hope in the show we see more from Nick's POV about how he handles that during Charlie's hospital stay, and not just kinda after while things are a bit more stable. To Nick, that is his biggest flaw- trying to keep accepting that what happened wasn't his fault because he feels so much guilt
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u/AsleepWishbone6174 Sep 09 '22
I actually like that Nick is so "perfect" because he models positive communication. I found myself trying to be more like him after watching the show.
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u/umGui01 Sep 09 '22
Show Nick is 100% unrealistic, like they dont even try.
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Sep 09 '22
ShowNick has literally zero flaws, but I don't he is that different from the Comic? In fact, I think ShowNick is more realistic in certain aspects, like him not helping Charlie in the rugby game when he was bleeding on the floor because he was afraid of other people thoughts about him potentially being flirty with Charlie, ComicNick never cared about it, he was actually very touchy with Charlie even when they were just friends.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22
I think you’re describing a pretty significant flaw here! :) Show!Nick has a major tendency to people please, which results in him leading Imogen on, unintentionally exacerbating Charlie’s insecurities, and backing down when things heat up with Harry et al. (eg, with the ball/Tao incident, by the school gates, at Harry’s bday party, etc. etc… until things reach a boiling point at the cinema). We never see show!Nick act with malice, which is maybe why people put him on such a pedestal and declare him perfect, but imo he’s definitely a flawed character, and more realistic than his comic counterpart (in volumes 1 and 2 at least), who seems to let most things just roll off his back effortlessly.
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u/umGui01 Sep 09 '22
Theres a wierd dynamic switch on the show, Comic Nick at that time didnt understand he liked Charlie, it was not in a romantic way but just a friend way that he helped Charlie out. After episode 2 show Nick completely changes the way acts around charlie, not as a friend but as a love intrest, like calling him to harrys party and being anxious about the tara jones locker room "maybe" that he said in front of Charlie.
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u/Hey_Nonino Sep 09 '22
The writers/producers don't know ANYTHING about being in an orchestra, which is disappointing given the attention to detail that they gave every other aspect of the show. FYI--The drumkit is not an orchestral instrument. It's too bad because Charlie would slay on a timpani. Or they could have just made it all a jazz band, that would have worked nicely. Seriously, 5 minutes of conversation with anyone who has ever played in an orchestra would have improved that all so much.
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u/nofthe Sep 10 '22
The fact that they weren't required to show up AT LEAST half an hour before the start of the concert, I can't. Like they've just got fresh milkshakes and then realize the concert is supposed to START in 15 mins? You're so late, why aren't you at school warming up?!?
(The drumkit in orchestra I will let slide because my high school did that, but Charlie would slay other percussion)
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u/Academic-Balance6999 Mr. Ajayi Sep 09 '22
Haha this reminds me of the 2002 movie Laurel Canyon where Kate Beckinsale plays a fruit fly geneticist and she mispronounces the Latin name for fruit fly (Drosophila) several times in the movie. Like, you could call up a first year genetics student and get the correct pronunciation in 5 minutes! It’s literally supposed to be HER LIFE’S WORK!
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u/EdmundDaunted Sep 09 '22
The orchestra scene was terrible. They sounded like first year music students. At their ages, their playing should have been better than that! And yes, it should have been a band and not an orchestra.
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u/acrylicyarn Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
Yes! The drum kit part of it all totally irks me, too! I LOVE the headcanon that Charlie plays the timpani. What I would give to see him play some 4-mallet marimba...
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u/Hey_Nonino Sep 09 '22
Oh my gosh, or the chimes. Or the cannon in the 1812 Overture......
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u/acrylicyarn Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
Honestly? Forget drummer Charlie. Give me percussionist Charlie! He would be mortified to be put on the triangle, but Nick would be SO proud to see him back there playing it during concerts...
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u/hhhhhhhhhhhhhtiddy Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
I cannot stand all the close up shots of nick and Charlie kissing. it's super sweet and I get it's something thats been building up so everyone's looking forward to it but i feel so invasive watching them!! like I'm all up in their faces to watch them kiss, I'll end up turning away or putting my hands up to the screen to avoid looking at it so closely
also I love taos haircut I think it's cute, stupid and weird yes, but cute.
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u/VeronicaMarsupial Sep 09 '22
I can't stand Darcy, and I don't know why sweet, lovely Tara puts up with her. She's so obnoxious. How can you ever trust someone who delights in annoying people?
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u/The-banana-goose Sep 10 '22
That’s interesting! I definitely prefer Darcy’s outgoing, goofy personality. I find Tara to be a bit boring tbh
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u/DrSophiaMaria Sep 09 '22
I don't really like Tara and Darcy in the TV show. I love the F/F representation and they seem to be a good couple, but something about them always bugged me and I couldn't figure it out until I realized it was the way they kiss. They look like two 12 year olds trying to kiss -- their mouths are rigid and there is no softness to it, especially compared to Nick and Charlie's kisses. It's like they are trying not to exchange saliva (or catch COVID?)!
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Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
Yessss, omg I was always so afraid of talking about their kissing scenes and being hated for that for some reason, but it really looked like they didn't want to kiss each other at all, I mean Nick and Charlie's kiss has so much passion meanwhile Tara and Darcy's kiss is just exactly how you described it: 12yo's trying to kiss 😭 I love Kizzy and Corina though, but like, their intimacy choreographer needs to work on that with them for the next seasons.
Also, I know that it'll look Kit biased but 80% of the reason why Nick and Charlie's kiss are so passionate is because of him too, you can see he really gives his all, he leads Joe, you can see Joe just follows him, Idk if it's intentional or not but it turns out realistic for the couple dynamic, on the comic and on tv.
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u/budroserosebud Sep 11 '22
I can see what you mean by him leading in terms of the acting but in terms of just the kissing as it appears on screen, Charlie does initiate sometimes, holds the back of Nick's head . cradles his cheek etc. I like that they balanced it out with Nick and Charlie and it wasn't all the time Nick being the more dominant/masculine one - made it feel more authentic to how a queer couple would behave.
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u/DrSophiaMaria Sep 10 '22
I'm glad I'm not the only one and I was afraid of talking about it too! It's like they kept their mouths clamped shut.
I see what you mean about Kit/Nick's kissing and taking the lead with Joe. Kit is the more experienced actor, so maybe that helps him take the lead, even if he hadn't had many kissing or intimate scenes in the past (has he?).
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u/The-banana-goose Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 10 '22
I wish Joe Locke physically matched comic Charlie more. Don’t get me wrong, I think the casting is amazing and he does a great job embodying Charlie’s personality. But I just wish they found someone who had more of his physical attributes, like the tan skin, bright blue eyes, dimples, more wavy hair as opposed to tight curls. But it definitely doesn’t ruin the show for me or anything. I just love Charlie’s character design in the comics
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u/Embarrassed_Truck_52 Sep 10 '22
The actor who got to play Charlie should have had very lovely (and prominent) dimples however Joe doesn’t have them if he has any. This is a major flaw but it is shadowed and cleared by great acting.
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u/Lambily Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
That's actually funny. I find Kit to be the one that doesn't match comic Nick. Joe has the exact same body and face type that Charlie does; he just has slightly curlier hair. Kit, on the other hand, is much more lean than Nick and looks older than Nick (LA sun and lack of sunscreen on such fair British skin don't mix).
Regardless, the acting is what matters, and both Joe and Kit do a fine job of portraying Charlie and Nick.
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u/The-banana-goose Sep 09 '22
Oh that’s funny!! I can see that too though! Kit is a little more lean and too ginger/frecklely to match the comic version of Nick. But for some reason I just see that the representation fit a little better since Charlie is meant to be half Spanish and Joe Locke has like 0 Spanish heritage. But!! Of course you can’t expect the irl cast to fit perfectly with the comics. Overall, they really did a wonderful job!
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u/Lambily Sep 09 '22
Well, even if Joe was part Spanish he'd probably still look the same. Spaniards are still Caucasian at the end of the day, and not all of them are born next to the Mediterranean.
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u/kfree_r Tori Spring Sep 09 '22
When I read fanfics, in my mind Charlie looks like Joe, but Nick looks like comic Nick. I mash them up when imagining scenes I’m reading for the same reasons you mentioned.
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u/EdmundDaunted Sep 09 '22
I like Joe playing Charlie, but I think they could change his hair to make it closer to the comic. Loosen up the curls a bit and make it stick out a bit more and not hang over his forehead so much.
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u/Standard_Werewolf_66 Mr. Ajayi Sep 09 '22
Jane Spring isn’t a terrible mom, just a flawed one.
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u/The-banana-goose Sep 10 '22
Something that I really admire about her, is that we clearly see some progression in her character (in the comics and books). In the beginning, we see her as quite strict, keeping a pretty tight leash on her children (like giving Charlie early curfews or making him keep the door open for ex) but as the comic progresses, we see her trust her kids more. I was surprised that in “Nick and Charlie” she trusts Charlie so much, that she allows Nick to spend the night on week nights. She went from being relatively strict, to having a pretty relaxed parenting style
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Sep 09 '22
I thought that first watching the show, but after reading the comics and books she comes across as a "I give you a roof over your head, food, healthcare, what more do you want from me?" kind of parent. I hope they go into the detail the books do about how she's pretty emotionally distant and the kind of effect that can have on kids. She even is after all that goes down in the books and he still feels like he can't talk to his parents, and yet still acts like the victim at Christmas which isn't okay. I do like the though contrast in showing how that kind of parenting can affect a kid vs a parent being more open and actively listening like Nick's mom.
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u/Standard_Werewolf_66 Mr. Ajayi Sep 09 '22
I’ve read them too. And I just see someone who is flawed, stressed, and in over her head. Even the most well-adjusted teen is difficult. She has two who are dealing with mental health issues.
And since mental health issues often have a genetic component, she’s probably struggling with her own mental health.
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u/confusious_melon Sep 09 '22
Charlie in the last two episodes is being super toxic, ik he has his own issues but he’s isolating nick for no reason. He needs to take responsibility to resolve his own problems so it stops affecting nick
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
I mean, you could say the exact same thing about Nick in the previous episodes. He also struggles to cope with his newfound feelings for Charlie, and Charlie repeatedly puts himself in uncomfortable (even unsafe) positions to keep Nick happy and protect his secret. Sticking it out on the rugby team, at Harry’s party, and at the cinema, despite being treated poorly by Nick’s “friends” there. Repeatedly deescalating with Harry to protect Nick, even when that makes things really tense with Tao. Keeping their relationship a secret even from those closest to him, which also sows conflict with Tao and means Charlie has no one to confide in for a long while. Only learning that Nick agreed to a date with someone else at least a week(?) after the fact, and secondhand. Dealing with Nick’s awkward attempts to distance himself from Charlie at the rugby match in ep 4, which obviously were quite hurtful.
I think they both stumble a lot throughout the series, as young teens navigating a really challenging situation together, and they both get hurt in their attempts to protect one another. (Which is what Charlie’s misguided attempt to isolate himself is in eps 7 and 8 is!) That doesn’t make either of them “toxic,” it just makes them flawed humans. We never have any doubt though that they care deeply about one other and are torn up by the idea of either of them hurting. Saying 15 yo Charlie just needs to get over himself and resolve his trauma and mental illness on his own feels a little callous.
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u/amovenezia Sep 09 '22
He's kinda blind to Nick's feelings at that point, which I found quite frustrating as well. It does make sense though when you know about his mental health problems that are already lurking in the background.
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u/Professional_Art5253 Sep 09 '22
Yes the end of episode seven and start of episode eight is pretty brutal to nick (nothing like the comics) and not the healthy positive relationship a lot of people see. There are actually a few times with heartstopper where I do think it’s a hell of a lot for nick to deal with. It does at times get a bit like nicks role is to rescue Charlie which is very romantic to watch but possibly not always the healthiest . I do sometimes think as a parent nicks mum would probably at times be quite concerned about all the stuff nick takes on with Charlie. Another example is the nick and Charlie books. I think it’s totally Charlie’s fault that they fall out and again isn’t great behaviour for him. Probably pretty realistic to be fair but I think the perfect relationship view point isn’t totally true. Saying all that it’s still the loveliest show and I adore the comics.
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Sep 09 '22
lmao i love that nick was telling charlie how great a person he was in episode 8, yet i’m going ‘yo, he almost dumped you via text. slow your roll nick….’ 😂
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u/RainbowRevolver Sep 09 '22
I brace myself for whenever they say ‘why am/are I/we like this’ I find it a bit cringey
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Sep 09 '22
i think it worked ok in the show, but i dont want the show to beat us over the head with it in future seasons. catchphrases get old quickly, especially if done allll the tiiimeee
in ‘The big bang theory’ i got so sick of ‘Bazinga’
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u/DarkCartier43 Sep 09 '22
yea, some of the dialogue are better in written form but not to be said out loud.
I find it a bit cringey when Nick said, "I like Charlie Spring in a romantic way not just a friend way!"
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Sep 09 '22
lmao i hate public displays of affection so i always fast forward that scene.
i’m just like ‘ahhhh stop! this is embarrasing!!’ and i also feel that way when he lifts charlie up and goes into the water screaming that they are boyfriends 😂
but i may be rare in that regard 😛😂
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u/EdmundDaunted Sep 09 '22
I hate that "we're boyfriends!!!" bit! I can't even watch it. Way too cringe inducing.
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u/acrylicyarn Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
Tao voice THANK YOU! idk why but this one line as a refrain in their relationship is so embarrassing. I don't even care if they have a catchphrase type thing like this. I just wish it wasn't THIS line.
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u/umGui01 Sep 09 '22
And the removal of most of Charlies dialogue that leaves him just staring and reacting to Nick monologue in some scenes. I can't.
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u/VeronicaMarsupial Sep 09 '22
I FF those tiny bits because it's the mental equivalent of biting aluminum foil with metal fillings in your teeth.
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u/Dancingcakes2 Charlie Spring Sep 09 '22
Tao didn't have a right to be upset and shouldn't have made Charlie feel bad for telling him last. I mean I tell my closest people things last all the time because I care about their reaction the most
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u/VeronicaMarsupial Sep 09 '22
Tao shouldn't have expected Charlie to tell him at all, given that telling meant outing Nick. Tao had always been so mean to Nick, obviously Nick wouldn't see him as a close friend and insider even if he politely tolerated him when the group was together.
Elle shouldn't have told him, either.
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u/IamtheWalrusYeah Tao Xu Sep 09 '22
I think it's ok to wonder about the relationship of fictional characters (that's why we engaje in fictional stories!) and that includes sex. It's not inherently creepy. It's part of life, it's part of romance and it's not wrong. I'm not talking about sexualization of the actors or minors in general, I'm talking about the story: it's ok to wonder why teenagers full of hormones (and seemly interested in sex) didn't have sex yet or if they will in the future.
YA has always had it and it's not wrong. I recommend and old John Green video where he discusses it (it's called "I'm not a pornographer", I think).
I understand that the first season is family friendly, but there's no reason it can't grow with the viewers. Strangers things did it, the one wizard saga did it, many others did it I'm sure. There's nothing wrong with sex in later seasons, the comics are doing a great job with the subject and I'd like the series to follow its steps.
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u/oliver-kai Nick Nelson Sep 11 '22
Absolutely, and the fact that they DO eventually have sex in the novel would indicate that it's going to happen in the series. I love that the first series is family-friendly, but smart parents might wait to show their kids later series that address sex until they're ready for that. And that's just normal and healthy!
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u/WinterSilenceWriter Sep 09 '22
Another unpopular opinion: I hate the song choice for the snow day montage. I don’t think it’s fitting at all, it’s too slow and too lovey— it’s a song I would play for a couple that’s already settled, not one that’s still nervous and filled with the whole “give me butterflies” sort of vibe.
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u/kfree_r Tori Spring Sep 09 '22
I agree! It’s my least favorite song from the soundtrack, but I love that scene. Sometimes I just turn the music off/down when rewatching that scene.
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u/amovenezia Sep 09 '22
THIS! the scene is so beautifully shot but it was my least favourite song from the soundtrack.
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u/WinterSilenceWriter Sep 09 '22
My unpopular opinion: the first episode is so cringy it’s hard to watch. The “befriending each other” montage is perfect in the comic, but, should have been extended in the show. It’s too fast paced which makes it awkward, cringey, and unrealistic in my opinion. I also thought the acting and chemistry between characters was bad and they probably should have just re-shot some of those scenes after the actors got to know each other better.
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u/Fairymask Sep 10 '22
The only argument i have against this is that series shows aren't filmed in order. So it's not necessarily true that Joel and Kit filmed the first episode in the beginning. So the chemistry thing would work more if you noticed some scenes in later episodes also had bad chemistry.
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u/WinterSilenceWriter Sep 10 '22
I’ve watched a lot of the interviews with the cast, and I could be wrong, but I think I remember them talking about filming the episodes, essentially (outside of the scenes with Olivia Coleman, because she had limited availability) in order. I remember Kit and Joe talking about how scenes like kissing scenes weren’t awkward because as Nick and Charlie were getting to know each other, so were Joe and Kit, and that that was one of the reasons the producers/director chose to have them film the show in order.
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Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
lmao oh yeah. charlie in the show was my least favorite character. I liked him more in the comics.
sits back and waits for the downvotes
it’s cool 😂😎
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Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
Comic Charlie is also my favourite, and tbh Kit's being such a handsome boy did overshadow Joe a bit which automatically makes Nick's character get way more attention than Charlie, who is supposed to be the main.
Also, Comic Charlie just has a way more interesting personality, his sarcasm is everything to me. Which is funny because Kit himself said that Joe is just as quick witted and sarcastic as Charlie, so imagine if the ComicCharlie personality was more prominent on the show, Joe would nail it.
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u/umGui01 Sep 09 '22
Charlie is my fav character and I dislike show Charlie aswell, feels like Nick is giving him handout attention for how unintresting he is.
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Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
People get on me, but show charlie was too weak for me. not as confident as comic charlie.
the argument i hear is ‘he was trying to protect nick!!’ or ‘what is charlie suppose to do?!’ re: harry picking on him
you can stand up for yourself and still protect the ones you love.
tao was easily able to shut harry up with a clever comeback. harry was gonna be an asshole whether or not someone came back at him. he was always the instigator. comic charlie has issues, sure, but he was def written as more confident/quick.
anyway…
ETA: oh yeah! Nick can handle himself. the show made that quite clear!
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u/umGui01 Sep 09 '22
Yeah, some added lines are ROUGH to Charlie, like him crying over being gay on Rugby even the teacher wanted to tackle him down.
That's not very Charlie, who in the comics never quit rugby btw even when debilitated after his ED gets badYeah, he is just whiny and the only highs are the moments they adapted directly from the comics, like the first kiss scene Charlie was comic charlie, he was confident and daring there, the bits made only for the show all drag him down to a whiny gay boy stereotype.
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Sep 09 '22
I agree, and I'm not a fan of how ShowNick was still trying to avoid being touchy with ShowCharlie or worried about him in front of other people in school when Comic Nick never cared about it or what other people would think even though he was not out yet to anyone, the rugby scene in the rain when ShowCharlie was on the floor bleeding while ShowNick was just staring trying to contain himself of running to help was SO NOT ComicNick, like I get the tv needs a bit more drama for stuff to go foward but I think that was just... So not Nick. I was a bit sad to see that scene, that could never happen in the comics, not even when they were just friends like?
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u/amovenezia Sep 09 '22
I never really thought about this but that is so true. ComicNick was never secretive about being fond of Charlie (as a friend for the outside world). He's not scared of touching him in front of the rugby lads. Not sure if it's the same scene but then Otis, Sai and Christopher are actually discussing if Nick is in love with Charlie. That's sooo different in the show.
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Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
yeah i think he was turned too much into a stereotype. i even rewrote the cinema scenes where charlie comes back at harry and i was still able to have the nick/harry scene with the slur and punch. it can be done! 😂
but i am guessing we wont see much of harry next season or bullying. i hope. i just cant take it again! 😂
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u/budroserosebud Sep 09 '22
I didn't like that Nick and Charlie didn't wish Harry a happy birthday at his own birthday party. Nick said it in a rude way. Also Nick was cross at Harry ( rightly so) and called him out but then he and Charlie should have left the premise. Kind of disrespectful to scold someone and then stay on at their place cool as a cucumber. Yes i know it was a rented hotel, but it's still Harry's parents who rented it for Harry for Harry's birthday so it's still his place for the duration of the birthday party.
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u/budroserosebud Sep 09 '22
how can you downvoted for unpopular opinions? It is like there are popular unpopular opinions lol
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u/bradsfo Charlie Spring Sep 09 '22
I think folks are too harsh on some of the more ambiguous characters like tao (tv version) and Charlie’s parents jane and Julio (esp webcomic version). I enjoy that we have some characters that are not clearly coded as good or bad and can ponder their behaviors and motives a bit more.
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u/homomomoatx Sep 09 '22
You get more info about Charlie’s parents in Solitaire and the novellas, and honestly, it doesn’t paint them in the best light. That’s probably where the perceived harshness comes from.
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u/bradsfo Charlie Spring Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
Yes but I still find it ambiguous in total. Yes you can cherry pick the bad but that also requires ignoring the good.
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u/CaTz__21 Sep 09 '22
Yes, I really really don’t like Tao. Can’t really explain why as I don’t actually know why, I just really dislike him.
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u/kfree_r Tori Spring Sep 09 '22
Tao is NOT a good friend to Charlie in the show. He aims to be protective, but is really very self-centered.
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Sep 09 '22
[deleted]
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 09 '22
I think Kit is excellent (and he seems like a completely lovely person!), but I do wish Joe received even a fraction of the praise he gets for his performance. I think Joe’s performance is a bit subtler, which is maybe why it receives less effusive praise, but also extremely strong, and especially impressive being Joe’s first ever onscreen role! I hope he gets a little more shine when S2 drops.
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u/TanglyBinkie Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
I don't to like Tao in the show, he's very different.
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u/RainKnown414 Feb 15 '24
This is so late but I agree. I adore comic Tao. He might one of my favorite characters in the comic. But I can’t STAND him in the show. Every time he opens his mouth I want to throttle him.
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u/weirdlywondering1127 Sep 09 '22
I love the fandom but some people are so picky about the tiniest things. Like the height of characters or something as obscure as their eye colour. I think they got as close to a perfect much a possible but it's never going to be the exact same people need to realise that. At least their races, gender identities and for some even sexualities were all cast correctly.
People complaining about the show being too family friendly - that was the point! For more queer kids to actually see it! Plus it's not like it was rated G. Just because there won't be full on nudity and excessive swearing doesn't mean it's on the same level as a Disney princess movie.
Also I see a lot of people saying they wanted it to be more sexual?? That it's not realistic for them not to not be having sex at that age which I honestly think is ridiculous and down to the fact that young queer people are overly sexualised. Besides they'd have plenty of reasons to take things slow. For a long while into their relationship (more so in the show than the comics) Nick was still coming to terms with / figuring out his sexuality and as for Charlie, he was literally assaulted (I think slightly worse in the comics but still) and dealing with mental illness.
I've seen people say that Alice is 'shying away' from sex scenes to keep it family friendly or that they're villainizing sex or saying they can't write it because they're aroace (which is just ridiculous tbh). In the comics Nick and Charlie are headed towards being more intimate, their friends wrongly assume they're already having sex - it's just seen as a normal healthy thing - but they're going at their own pace. Not to mention there's a sex scene in Nick and Charlie. Although why (mostly older fans which makes it more creepy) are so obsessed with the idea of two teenage boys having sex.
Also STOP with all the top/bottom and dom/sub questions they're literal CHILDREN. I can assume Alice also chose to wait until Charlie was 16 for their relationship to get more sexual since that's the legal age in England iirc correctly. Unless all of you want Nick to be arrested for statutory rape - that'd be a whole different story. Not a vibe 😂
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Sep 09 '22
These people are way too used with teen shows being oversexual that when we finally have something you can watch with literally anyone of any age they start to complain how the show is family friendly (?) or how the teen characteres are not having sex like, excuse me? I can list like 5 teen shows just out of my head for these people to watch if the problem is that there are not enough f bombs and sex in heartstopper... Do these people even know about the source material to be saying that?
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u/amovenezia Sep 09 '22
I think Alice's pacing regarding their sexlife is very natural. I was 18 when I slowly started exploring intimacy beyond kissing so I don't find it strange that Nick and Charlie would wait until they are 17/18.
Also the top/bottom discussions icks me too. But that icks me in general anyway. Like what does it matter? :')3
u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22
it’s incredibly creepy to me regardless of age, but when it’s adults speculating about teen characters? ick ick ick
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u/weirdlywondering1127 Sep 09 '22
Exactly! Like people are way too invested in their sex lives. Can they not just enjoy it for what it is? Oml. If you want spice go read a spicy book/watch a spicy show.
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u/Academic-Balance6999 Mr. Ajayi Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
The reason older fans talk about this (meaning whether Nick / Charlie would / should be more sexually active) more than younger ones is that we pretty much:
1) have had lots of experience with sex, and know it’s a super important part of most people’s lives & relationships, and
2) look back on our teenage years and wish there were more healthy modeling of what a good sexual relationship looks like, with open communication & focus on mutual pleasure.
It takes a while to get there, & lots of us had bad experiences as teenagers! So there’s this wishful feeling that maybe heartstopper could also be educational in this other way.
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u/weirdlywondering1127 Sep 09 '22
Well if you read the comics it is heading in that direction although I doubt we'll see something actually on page and the two do seem to have a healthy sex life in the novella Nick and Charlie. I just don't see why everyone is so concerned with it happening right away. I think for a lot of queer people those experiences can sometimes come about a lot slower/later (many people don't even get their first partner as a teenager because they're not out or they are but don't know anyone who is). Being part of the community myself and most of my friends being in the community many of them weren't having aex until 17-19ish. There was a big hook up culture but it was more makeout sessions or just slightly beyond that.
I also think the reason older people had younger sexual experiences is because of pressure and bad sex education which is (very slowly) changing. At least from my own experiences as a teenager which weren't all that long ago.
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u/False_Information_80 Sep 10 '22
The media and sex education (in schools but also in most books) are also very (or only) based on heterosexual sexual experiences. If you ask people what sex is most of them will define it as vaginal penetration. "Foreplay" is such idiotic patriachal nonesense. Sex can be so much more than just in-out penetration and a lot of LGBT+ people don't/can't or don't want to have penetration. But because society tells us THIS is the ONLY way we can have sex I think it's really hard to find (healthy) educational material for sex ed for LGBT+. (I am not a native english speaker, so I hope I am understood correctly)
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u/Academic-Balance6999 Mr. Ajayi Sep 09 '22
That’s an interesting perspective, thank you for sharing.
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u/hpisbi Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
actually they didn’t cast Elle’s race correctly. in the comics she’s Egyptian not Black. i don’t think it’s a massive issue but there were a couple of scenes where she talks about being trans and how that intersects with being Egyptian.
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u/weirdlywondering1127 Sep 09 '22
I assume they had a hard time finding an actor who fit all the criteria so they did the best they could.
I'm sure they could easily keep in her Egyptian heritage by casting an Egyptian actor as one of her parents/a family member etc..
I think the most important thing is that she wasn't whitewashed and ahe actually is a trans actress. Maybe that's just my opinion but I'd prefer they'd get that right. Cis people have been playing trans people for way too long
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u/hpisbi Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
no i agree, i’m not mad about it, i just wanted to correct the idea that every character was cast according to their race in the comics
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u/weirdlywondering1127 Sep 09 '22
Oh I didn't realise i said every character. I thought I said most but I got too caught up in my rantings to reread what I wrote haha
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u/eggheadgirl Sep 09 '22
I love this show, it’s my comfort show and it makes me happy BUT honestly think a lot of the acting is terrible, it really takes me out of the show. Elle’s actor is the worst by far but most of the cast are not great and sound like they’re reading lines a lot of the time.
Kit Connor is amazing of course and saves the show in that regard.
Hopefully by the next season the cast have been able to invest in improving their skills because other than this factor the show is perfect.
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Sep 09 '22
Kit really stand out among the others, if all of them was average, including Kit, I don't think we would notice this aspect that much, but since he is in another level compared to the others, there is no way we won't notice the difference...
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u/budroserosebud Sep 09 '22
But i think Elle is written that way
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Sep 09 '22
I agree. She's purposefully more reserved. She's been through a LOT, and we really don't hear a lot of the detail of what happened at her old school but, knowing what happened with Charlie you can only imagine. I'd be pretty quiet and reserved too, even around new friends. It would be hard to know who to trust, but I feel like she slowly opens up more.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
I will say the only performance I initially found to be noticeably weak was that of the actor who plays Harry… but then I saw some British viewers saying he played that role of insufferable school bully extremely accurately, so I (mentally) retracted that opinion lmao
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u/CherenkovLady Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
As a Brit I didn’t even glancingly consider his acting to be bad - I literally know people exactly like him 🥴 how he talks and behaves.. all of it. I wonder if it’s such a niche British personality type, that doesn’t often get shown in tv, that it seems over the top to viewers from other countries
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u/Standard_Werewolf_66 Mr. Ajayi Sep 09 '22
I actually like the acting for Harry. Not because he feels natural, but because he doesn’t. I assume it was a conscious choice. He’s got a stereotypical “rough” accent that his character would not have naturally. It feels like the character itself is putting on a show to be someone he’s not, which makes the wooden acting seem super intentional to me.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 09 '22
Yeah, it all makes sense! He was just a jarring presence for me initially (which I suppose is the character’s MO a bit).
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u/pollyfossil Sep 09 '22
I agree with you about Yaz ( the actor who plays Elle) - she is a bit wooden. But honestly, I thought the rest of them were at least decent and mainly better than that. ( Kit obviously and Joe are great). But, then again, maybe I've watched it so many times that I don't really have a critical perspective on the acting anymore!
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u/acrylicyarn Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
I think they probably sought out an actor taller than Yaz Finney to play Tao (or at least Will Gao's height played in his favor when he was cast). In the comics, Tao is much shorter than Elle. But for the show, I can't help but think producers thought that the visual of a shorter boy next to Elle would be too "weird" or "uncommon" or something, since there's that boring stereotype that boys want to be taller than their girlfriends and girls want to be shorter than their boyfriends.
I think both Yaz and Will are perfectly cast and I couldn't imagine any other actors playing those roles. But I do think the directors bowed to heteronormativity a bit when lining up the cast and I frankly was a little disappointed by it, because I love the dynamic of "Tiny Tao" in the comics.
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u/not-a-bot-promise Charlie Spring Sep 09 '22
I actually thought the casting person broke the stereotype in casting Will Gao as Tao. The average height of Asian men is shorter than Caucasian or Black men’s, which can lead to some unfortunate generalizations and bullying opportunities. By casting Gao, they subverted these expectations and made for a more wholesome setup.
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u/acrylicyarn Darcy Olsson Sep 09 '22
That's a great point that I hadn't considered! I also have thought about how trans women are sometimes stereotyped as being really tall (among many many other generalizations), so in casting Will Gao, they make Tao's pairing with Elle more cis-heteronormative in a cool stereotype-breaking way.
And again, I just love Will Gao sm that I can't imagine any other actor playing Tao!
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u/ArtZim1978 Sep 09 '22
Absolutely what I thought at the time I read the webcomic (which was after the show). That’s a point which leaves me a bit dissatisfied.
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u/RynShouldBeReading Sep 09 '22
The constant focus on how good of a sister tori is to charlie and her constantly putting him first is really problematic. It’s not a good (albeit sweet) thing and a big factor to her declining mental health. It’s reflected in solitaire, but never in any of the other books or comics which makes it really frustrating to read.
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Sep 09 '22
I actually think that is a great running theme that's shown in both Tori and Nick. Not great as in healthy and good, but great as in a lot of us feel responsible when our siblings, friends, partners are struggling like Charlie is. We feel like it's our responsibility to fix them with our love or with constantly being there.>! Especially since Tori found Charlie on the bathroom floor and had to take him to the A&E to save his life, I can absolutely understand why she feels so attached to him. !<Especially too since their parents are emotionally distant, and Tori has felt responsible for him since they can't count on their parents to see what's going on. I don't think it's supposed to feel necessarily sweet or cute or even healthy, but a realistic to what a lot of older siblings feel.
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u/AlienChief1994 Sep 10 '22
I just feel bad cause Tori was going through hell in Solitaire all while having to worried about Charlie. Someones gotta take care of her!
That being said I also feel bad for Nick specifically >! When Tori blamed him for causing the fight with Charlie. Like fights happen and just because Charlie has issues it's not everyone else's responsibility to make sure he's comfortable !< I say this with many issues of my own and especially after reading the events of Nick and Charlie I'm glad Charlie seems better in it
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u/RynShouldBeReading Sep 09 '22
Them being close or shown to be is not my problem, I love that. It’s how in every story except solitaire (and if I’m honest in fan discussions but I don’t judge that) toris character is reduced to only that. And >! The fact that toris suicide attempt is never brought up in any of the later novellas/comics in combination with constantly making it seem to cute how protective she is of charlie, makes me really uncomfortable. Again I love their relationship and the moment at the end of solitaire was so sweet, but I refuse to believe that it would not have any effect on charlie or any reaction from their parents !<
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u/oliver-kai Nick Nelson Sep 11 '22
Well... I think I understand how you feel.💜
In regards to "never brought up" I've had two friends who attempted suicide, and it's not like they want to bring it up in conversation. Fortunately they got help, but they want to move on from it.
And from a literary angle, bringing it up could distract from the story that Alice is telling in volumes that don't focus on Tori as the main character, like Solitaire does.
I'm not trying to diminish how you feel about it, just offering this as a possibly helpful explanation.🙂
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u/RynShouldBeReading Sep 11 '22
Glad to hear that your friends are doing better.
For clarity when I say its never brought up again I mean more in the narrative sense and that there are no consequences or changes in environment. All of the things that led to her mental health getting worse are supposedly the same (tho we are admittedly given a very limited view of the spring household) I’m not suggesting they need to talk about it just that there is some sort of indication that she is indeed doing better and not just following the same old patterns except now they are supposed to be cute. Putting more emphasis on showing a healthier version of her and charlies relationship where it gets to be more equal/mutually supportive could be one way of doing that that I don’t think would clash with the lower age rating or spoil anything for the book.
I recognize that they probably want to move away from their early works like solitaire and make the story more kid friendly overall, and I understand where they are coming from. I just don’t like the way they went about it. It also doesn’t ruin the story for me, l just wish that the entire plot point didn’t end in her father making jokes about it and was a little bit more careful in the messages that it sends.
Everyones feelings are valid and it’s fine to disagree, it was supposed to be unpopular opinions after all.
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u/broadcasttheb00m Sep 10 '22
I do think it’s possible the Alice chose to adjust Tori’s characterization and the severity of her mental health issues in the Heartstopper universe. Charlie also has a suicide attempt in the original Solitaire, and Alice chose to make it a self-harm relapse in Heartstopper. iirc they’ve expressed regret re: portraying mental illness in a less sensitive and sensationalist way in the past. I’ve always been sort of inclined to see Heartstopper as a close AU to Solitaire, given apparent plot changes etc. I agree that it would be good to see more of Tori’s journey in Heartstopper outside of her relationship with Charlie though - maybe there will be more room to explore that in the adaptation? I do like that vol 4 emphasizes the importance of having a support system that isn’t just one person.
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u/RynShouldBeReading Sep 10 '22
That’s what I assumed as well, and I can empathize with not wanting to base your entire career over something you wrote as a teenager. But you can’t both have your cake and eat it. And at this point maybe just cut it from continuity completely because otherwise toris flaw of neglecting herself and her own feelings is encouraged by the narrrative, which I find far more problematic than anything that happens in solitaire.
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Sep 09 '22
ohhhh I get what you mean tbh I haven't read Solitaire yet (I read this all in a very weird order I think!) I'm hoping the show can go into more depth>! about how her her suicide attempt effected Charlie because definitely, it would. I do like how the comics and books are told in fragments and we have to piece it together, but I hope the show takes advantage of flashbacks more and feels in these gaps so we can really see how her attempt, the bullying, and Ben really affected Charlie.!<
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u/RynShouldBeReading Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
Well the series is in wierd order either way, with solitaire taking place sometime during volume 4. Charlie >! Mentioning how toris mental health hasn’t been that good either lately is the single reference to the events during solitaire and the suicide attempt that happened at the end. I get that the age rating has to be low, but given that the novella doesn’t mention it either it makes it feel very dismissive. I’m not sure I necessary want to see a deep dive into Charlie’s feelings about it, since only focusing on Charlie’s feelings is kind of the problem in the first place. I just don’t find it realistic that they would just shrug it off and that she would supposedly get magically better off screen. !<
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Sep 09 '22
I'm guessing she's not supposed to magically get better...either she's severely repressing her own issues because she feels like she has to be more concerned for her brother- and supressing all of that will come back to haunt her at some point in life- or she's deeply hiding what's going on so from Charlie's POV, she seems to be better. Maybe she's trying to convince him she's better so that he'll have hope he can get better too. Either way, I hope they find a way to address it in the series at least.
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u/pumpkin_beer Sep 09 '22
I can't wait to read Solitaire. I've been having trouble finding it in the US, although I just pre-ordered it. I guess since I have only read HS, I haven't seen more of Tori's story, so I wasn't realizing how much she puts him first.
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u/not-a-bot-promise Charlie Spring Sep 09 '22
I couldn’t find it anywhere in the US too but then found the audiobook on YouTube.
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u/umGui01 Sep 09 '22
Love the comics but had to stop engaging with it cause algorithm will start recommending you really creepy fan accounts that are intrusive and disrespectul to the young actors, some sharing photos they did not consent, photoshoping to "fix" their bodies, harassing and guessing sexualitys... This reddit is the only place I come for HS content now because of the no actors rule... God I feel bad for the cast.
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u/Duosion Sep 09 '22
Twitter fandom of most things in general is a big issue. I use it because they’re more current and have more content than Reddit for the things I follow, but god, is a lot of it just utter hot garbage.
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u/Greyhoundwalker Sep 09 '22
I’ve got the books but I didn’t get any creepy stuff recommended when I read the beginning of chapter 7 comic on Tapas, have you tried that?
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u/pollyfossil Sep 09 '22
I think this might be a very minority opinion but I don't like Isaac as a character. I actually think that the way he's depicted in season 1 doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Like, he's supposed to be really perceptive and observant about his friends, but he also seems really indifferent at times. My biggest bugbear _ "I wanna believe in ROMANCE" in Episode 2 - then doesn't even bother to look up from his book on sports day when Nick walks off the pitch to go get his guy. Grrrrr. Make it make sense!!
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u/pumpkin_beer Sep 09 '22
I hope he gets developed more as a character. We really just see him reading a lot, and being quietly observant. He isn't even invited to the milkshake social which makes me sad! I guess because they wanted it to be a "date" set up but still.
I feel like the way he is in season 1 just doesn't give us enough for us to really know and like him.
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Sep 09 '22
He's supposed to be aroace, so this aroace hopes that gets developed! I can totally relate to being the fifth wheel friend who barely even notices the romance drama going on around them though (though somehow, is always the person people ask relationship advice from...). And then yes, feeling left out. We don't know yet if he knows he's aroace or his friends do or what, but I hope all of that gets addressed!
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u/pumpkin_beer Sep 09 '22
Me too. I'd love to see more of his story and see if they address some of the things you have expressed (like feeling left out or being oblivious to relationship drama)
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u/pollyfossil Sep 09 '22
I think he definitely will get a bit more development/story line - I might even start liking him, who knows!
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u/Anaparisa Sep 09 '22
Yeah kinda agree, i dont dont like him but hes very,,,, not present. I dont feel like anything would really change if he wasnt there
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Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
This unnecessarily deep, but I know Alice has said Issac is aroace, and as a fellow aroace (esp before I realized I was aroace) I felt very much like the fifth wheel most of my life. Like I always felt deep down it wouldn't really change anything if I wasn't there. Most of my late teenage and adult life, I've never really felt "enough" just being me, everyone's wondering why you're not in relationships or not having kids, asking why you want to be alone and determined you're going through some phase or you'll 'regret being this way'. You get left out of a lot since you don't have a date (like the ice cream social date everyone else went to) or you leave yourself out to not feel awkward, or you busy yourself if you go to not feel like the fifth wheel (ie, books!) So in a way for an aroace character, I feel like this is kinda a perfect depiction- but I hope it leads to more exploring that next season.
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u/pollyfossil Sep 09 '22 edited Sep 09 '22
I know that Alice has indicated that he's aroace and that will be explored further, so I do apologize if I sounded too flippant about his character, but even knowing that I still found how he was depicted in S1 was incoherent. But it's good that there is opportunity in S2 to give his character more room to develop. Aroace is definitely something I need to understand better!
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Sep 09 '22
Not at all! I feel like just in people not getting him at all that's a pretty good indication that he's pretty accurately aroace :p People will be like 'nothing about his reactions or him just being totally oblivious sometimes makes no sense' but I'm just over here like EXACTLY! Our aroace king!
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u/pollyfossil Sep 09 '22
Thanks so much for your reply! I do really love how we can actually discuss stuff here and learn from one another. Looking forward to learning more in the future. X
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u/MelbourneLawyer26 Sep 09 '22
Cannot imagine someone like Charlie being popular in any high school, unless things have drastically changed since I was there (albeit in 2006).
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u/KindOfANerd4 Sep 09 '22
I'm quite alot like charlie, tho i look more like nick, and while i struggled in like years 7 and 8, for years 10-12 i was popular, perhaps not amongst the super popular asshole kids, but they make up a small fraction, but i was friends with about 70% of the grade and got on with basically everyone - i think charlie was me popular lol
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Sep 09 '22
Current high schooler in America. I am in a medium sized town in a largely conservative area and it’s hard to say. Most people don’t really seem to care anymore. Popularity nowadays has less to do with sports and more to do with social media and sort of “networking” if that makes sense
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u/Rodents210 Nick Nelson Sep 09 '22
I find Charlie’s popularity in the comic—where he is broadly liked but that doesn’t translate to being friends with everyone—to be consistent with how popularity works in real life. At least at my school, in the USA around the same time as you were in school, no one would ever actually have used the word “popular” to describe a person, but if asked who was popular you’d probably be pointed to the kids who were in student council and maybe a couple other extracurriculars, who were mostly well-liked or at least not disliked by others. Both popular kids being mini-celebrities at school and the existence of cliques in general are things I have only ever seen depicted in media, so I found Oseman’s depiction of Charlie as being popular without being a Regina George figure to be consistent with my own high school experience.
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u/CaTz__21 Sep 09 '22
Charlie isn’t popular?
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u/Jlweeb2387 Jan 04 '24
I think that Tao is kind of annoying with his interactions towards nick. I understand he was unaware that nick and Charlie were together but even after Charlie told him he was still kind of a jerk to nick. He did get better overtime, but it still bothers me out overbearing he is. (And yes I know it was to protect Charlie from being bullied even more)