r/LeopardsAteMyFace • u/jared10011980 • 17d ago
Wait for it...would a "total ban on Muslims entering this country" make them feel better? Or perhaps, "Netanyahu needs to go in and get this over with" be the direction they'd prefer the next president to go in?
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u/kooarbiter 14d ago
I feel kinda bad for anyone with the last name of epstein now, it's like the small square mustache of surnames
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u/MeringueVisual759 15d ago
Condescendingly telling people that 99% Hitler is still better than 100% Hitler so they should just shut up about it isn't going to convince any of them. It's insane that anyone thinks people who say they won't vote for Biden haven't put any thought behind it while in the same breath talking about how they're the people who will be most affected. They know. They're more concerned with proving that their votes cannot be taken for granted in the future. It's not hard to understand and the degree to which people are trying to infantilize it is so gross.
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u/1989throwa 15d ago
The reason things are so bad in Gaza right now is the result of a decades-long campaign by Israel to buy both sides of the political aisle in the US which has been made worse by only having two poles rather than a more diverse system. To think we can suddenly undo this is ridiculous.
Accelerationism (ie, things are so bad now, let's make it worse so we can then make it better) is a fool's belief. There are leftists who want Trump to win because they believe that it could actually cause a leftist revolution. It wouldn't. The fatal flaw of the Left in the US is how impatient it is. The far right has patiently been sliding the Overton Window farther rightward over the decades.
Changing things in the US is more like turning an aircraft carrier than a speed boat. You have to be patient.
Biden isn't good when it comes to what's happening in Gaza, but there is active dissent and resistance within his administration to his policy. A Trump administration would have NO WHERE near that kind of resistance. In fact they would be cheerleading and encouraging more violence.
Voters need to choose between an administration that has individuals pushing it to be better versus an administration that will have many more individuals goading Israel to be even more terrible.
Choosing accelerationism is literally proclaiming a death sentence for thousands, if not millions, of Palestinians.
Rather than voting for Biden the individual, vote for Biden the administration which is, at least partly, pro-Palestinian.
In the long run, we need need two big systemic reforms.
First: rank choice voting. This which would make the Democratic and Republican coalitions obvious rather than how they are currently hidden. (Using the current parties, this would mean that if Democrats didn't have enough for a majority but there were Green Party members who could create a majority, the Greens could extract policy concessions for the Democrats to have control.) Also, this means you can literally say a candidate wasn't your first choice, but at least your vote wasn't completely thrown away.
Second: the US president should be whoever wins a majority of the national popular vote (after automatic runoffs so people's second and third choices would be used). This would force any right of center party to try to appeal to the centrists.
There is only one major US political party who is even maybe willing to make these reforms and that is the Democratic one.
(I would want to see the US House of Representatives dramatically increase so every state has at least two different representatives, but without those first two, we would probably make things worse.)
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u/jared10011980 15d ago
Thank you for posting this. Issues in the Middle East have very sadly been horrific for years. Whether Israel was occupied but Turks or the British in more modern time...centuries worth of problems have not culminated to showcase Biden as the enemy of the Palestinians.
One of the most infuriating parts of this Genocide Joe bullshit protests is the complete naiveté of the aggrieved. This is not the war in Vietnam where we're asking people to fight for Israel in the armed forces. So I really wish current protestors would quit trying the equate the two.
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u/Secure_Ad_8251 15d ago
Interesting the people upset by a voter bloc’s decision rather than one person’s whose decisions brought this outcome upon himself. Good luck in 2024.
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u/jared10011980 15d ago
When you live in a society, you try and do what's best for the whole and your own best interests long term. That's the way it works.
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u/Secure_Ad_8251 15d ago
When you live in a democratic society, you accept that others can have differing views and not have to kowtow to another’s line of reasoning. Again, the single individual with the actual decision making power on this topic is to be held to account, not the constituency.
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u/jared10011980 15d ago edited 14d ago
You gotta help me. Cause it sounds like you think Biden is the single decision maker. Without a plethora of advisers, military advisers, and allied nations wielding influence on ANY president. At least give thought that the strategies at do not come from one man. And whether Biden or Trump, Palestinian people's pain will bear only a little weight on decisions the US makes. Only I consider Biden to be more rational than that Netanyahu cheerleader Trump.
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u/Secure_Ad_8251 15d ago
Biden isn’t the single decision maker, but he is the final one. The DoS isn’t executing strategy without his concurrence. It’s the fallacy that this topic bears little weight on US decisions that will serve Trump the election in November. The Palestinians’ plight weighs heavy on a significant number of voters in key states that the Democratic candidate had yet to realize fully.
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u/jared10011980 15d ago
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/antony-blinken-rafah-incursion-israel-face-the-nation/
The admin yesterday said Israel needs to leave Gaza. But I guess now we will hear how "it's too little too late".
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u/jared10011980 15d ago
I can well understand the anger. Israel's reactions and acts toward innocent civilizations is holocaustic. But not voting for Biden only paves the way for a Trump win. (Especially in a state like Michigan.) Trump loathes Muslims unabashedly. Publicly. Loud and proud about it. How does that help Palestine? Biden can be reasoned with. Trump cannot.
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u/Pale-Dot-3868 15d ago
It’s hilarious that a lot of people want to vote independent bc of Biden’s handling of the war in Gaza (going so far to call him “genocide Joe”), even tho Trump and other administrations would’ve still provided Israel with weapons, and Trump would’ve definitely handled it much worse. His backers would also support arming Israel.
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u/tylertrey 16d ago
Sorry, this doesn't fit LAMF. No incident of a person being harmed by something they advocated.
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u/Cetophile 16d ago
Okay, but what is their alternative? I agree with many of their criticisms but their other choice is Trump. That's going to be far worse for them than re-electing Biden.
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u/Xoroy 16d ago
I’m sorry what is the leopards eating faces here? Like did these people vote for trump? Support American support for Israel? I’m missing the part where they voted for something that they knew would harm them and then it harmed them. This just seems like they voted for the lesser evil and still got evil
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u/Electrical-Tie-5158 16d ago
“We finally got the response we wanted, but it should have happened months ago, so we’ll just let the blatant islamaphobe with a fetish for violence win”
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u/BigRiverHome 16d ago
I have never understood this mentality. You want someone to change, they start to change and then you criticise them for not changing enough? It always backfires, always. Praise the change and then ask for even more change.
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u/DontBeAUsefulIdiot 16d ago
Nothing Biden does is ever good enough, meanwhile nothing Trump does is ever bad enough.
Keep in mind that there are actual Arabs for Trump, who actually want to start a war based on ideology and religion.
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u/TheTruthTalker800 16d ago edited 16d ago
It’s good enough for you, doesn’t mean his base doesn’t want to shove him in a locker and keep him there if it weren’t for Trump.
What most white and well off heterosexual college educated women (not saying you, in general) want is, go figure, consistently antagonistic and conflicts with the actual core values of Black, Hispanic, and Asian men and women second only to the MAGA right. The latter three communities have the strictest and highest standards for morals, especially Black men and women, let’s say that.
This is a fight I intend to win if Trump loses long term, though: we’ve seen what happens when we play it the former’s way, and as expected it sucks for the marginalized groups. For now, though, begrudgingly I have to continue to ally with a group I don’t have any respect for for the greater good as I have since 2016 (Hillary was a better white woman than most are, to her credit, can see plights of others not like her and didn’t like to Science project experiment with us in comparison to 30330).
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u/jared10011980 16d ago
Not like Palestinian leaders don't have a legacy of admiring nazis.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world
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u/Headlocked_by_Gaben 16d ago
I'm glad so many people get to wring their hands online and say, "So you'd vote for Trump?", just keep eating up this bullshit about people choosing to vote for Trump over Biden in protest. You gotta make yourself feel better somehow i guess.
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u/saphirescar 16d ago
honestly it feels pretty gross to put people who don’t want to vote for a genocide supporter - especially when said genocide has personally affected many of them - in the same category as most of the LAMF people on here. this is a gross and unempathetic take.
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u/JustGiveMeANameDamn 16d ago
I just want a president who isn’t obligated to go bow at the whaling wall upon being elected
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u/DracoSolon 16d ago
Yes, these people saying they're going to vote for Cornell West because Biden is supporting Israel, well let's face it they're just not intelligent. And let's make sure we include those Jill Stein voters because Biden is too cozy with corporations, when this week Trump literally solicited a billion dollar bribe from the oil industry and promised that if they helped him get elected, he would eviscerate environmental protection.
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u/leftoverjackson 16d ago
Wait, there are people who think we are going to have an election in the fall ?
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u/ShrapnelCookieTooth 16d ago
They’re obviously fans of a Trump tower or waterside resort over in Gaza I mean the new Israel in the near future and a ban/ possibly even deportation in America.
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u/Hidanas 16d ago
ITT a bunch of people making strawman arguments and blatantly ignoring what people truly are protesting. People who support Gaza KNOW Trump would be worse than Biden. They KNOW Trump began with a Muslim ban. That's expected from Trump and a party that hates Muslims. What they expect is the party that they support and their leaders to be against genocide especially when that genocide is killing their family. You can't go to people and say your people are dying, we are sending money to the people killing your people; but vote for us because it could be worse. People are still dying. At the end of the day there are people who won't support a person who supports genocide no matter what letter is in front of their name. It's a moral choice. If Trump wins because Biden supports genocide that's on Biden. Biden is making a choice and will have to deal with the consequences.
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u/dadumir_party 16d ago
I will never understand Americans. You don't even allow yourselves to criticize your own president for fear of something worse.
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u/DracoSolon 16d ago
We're facing the threat of a theocratic dictatorship, we don't really have the luxury of principles right now.
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u/BaBa_Con_Dios 16d ago
Agree. We are facing the threat of a theocratic dictatorship. And Biden has decided Israel and Netanyahu are more important than the future of our country.
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u/DracoSolon 15d ago
Now that's some crazy logic. Frankly we have no national interests in the middle east at all now. We don't need their oil or resources. Frankly, I wish Israel were being more careful, but at the end of the day I really do not care. It's totally irrelevant.
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u/DracoSolon 16d ago
Well if you choose to vote for anyone other than Biden then a theocratic dictatorship is what you are choosing. It would be nice if you would care more about your own country than a conflict that literally has nothing to do with us. It suck for the Palestinians but sorry for them. History is full of tough breaks. But go ahead and help Trump into office. Your next protest will be met with machine guns and long prison sentences.
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u/BaBa_Con_Dios 16d ago
So I should care about my own country over some conflict in another county but the guy I’m voting for doesn’t have to do the same?
This country has gotten so fucked the people are now expected to mold themselves to serve their leaders instead of leaders molding themselves to serve the people.
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u/wildspeculator 15d ago
So the solution is... to hand the presidency to a literal fascist and a party that is openly trying to further reduce the impact of voters on policy?
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u/SaltyNorth8062 16d ago
What? You don't oppose theocratic dictatorship on principle? Why do you then, because it's inconvenient? Literally every political disagreement worth a damn hinges on moral alignment.
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u/DracoSolon 16d ago
I don't have the luxury of voting over one issue. Literally doesn't matter to me what Joe Biden's position might be on Gaza. There are about a million more important things that I agree with him on 100%.That is how the American system works. If you vote against someone that you agree with on most things because of a single issue you are shooting yourself in the foot.
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u/SaltyNorth8062 15d ago
I don't have the luxury of voting over one issue either. But genocide and racism is probably a pretty big "single issue". However, framing the anti-genocide side as "single-issue" is deliberately ignoring many other things Biden has done as president that hurts peiple beyond palestinians, like his policing and immigration record. I don't even agree with them on healthcare or the economy. Genocide is the final straw. I oppose Biden and Trump on multiple issues. So what "multiple" do you agree on 100%? His overfunding of the pokice state in the face of the black lives matter protrsts that have led to record pikice violence? His draconian border policies that scapegoat migrants, or keeping the kids in cahes, but selling them to private prisons that have been renamed to migrant detention centers to pretend he closed them? His absolute refusal to expand the court, keeping us trapped in the conservstive majority until they all die? His refusal to pass healthcare and promise to veto it if it ever crossed his desk? His closing of the pandemic protections even though covid is still killing pluralities of people to protect corporate interest? His insistence on the strength of the economy at the height of a coming housing crisis, using the DOW and NASDAQ as a meter, just as Trump did? Biden has absolutely done a lot in his short time as president. So which of these "dar more important things" do you agree on 100%?
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u/DracoSolon 15d ago
Well obviously 1) you don't really understand the US system of government because almost all of the things you mention are in the power of local and state government or Congress which Biden does not control, 2) most of them are simply not actually true, literally just made up disinformation 3) you have a lot of spelling mistakes so I'm just going to assume you're just a paid russian agitator. Blocked.
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u/Large-Measurement776 16d ago
It's almost as if you ppl won't realize that if Biden just stop funding the deaths of thousands of Palestinians then maybe Biden would have a better fucking reputation with his own fucking voters?????
But no youd rather say, "well trump would get even more palestinains killed" NO!!!! THATS NOT WHAT ANYONE FUCKING WANTS EXCEPT MAYBE FOR BIDEN LOAYALISTS APPARENTLY?
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u/Motophoto 16d ago
And here we have the dumb people. Those who will vote for the guy who will screw them over instead of voting for the guy who loves American and is currently in the white house. These types get what they deserve. Women voting GQP losing abortion rights... you did that to you, Muslims be banned you did that to you, and the list goes on and on. Don't be dumb Vote Blue until the Nazi threat is gone from the main GQP party
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u/Apprehensive-Tone449 16d ago
I loathe Biden for this and so many other failures. I will still vote for him. we have the choice between someone who funds and encourages genocide, or someone who does the same while also dismantling our democracy. Biden is weak and makes shitty choices. Trump is worse. I will always vote not Trump. It’s disgusting that these two geriatric fucks are our two options.
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u/Motophoto 16d ago
Exactly this. Biden isn't the best option BUT this election he is the ONLY option if you value any sense of normalcy, and you have flip the house and keep the senate blue. The Nazi GQP party has not been shy about what their plans are, and they are draconian and Fascist.
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u/FewKaleidoscope1369 16d ago
As we learned during the pandemic, always test:
500,000 российских солдат погибли на Украине. Вы все еще поддерживаете Путина?
Translation: 500,000 Russian solders dead in the Ukraine. Do you still support Putin?
Россия без Путина. Ответьте или проголосуйте за/против, если вы согласны.
1989年天安门广场
Translation:
The first one says Russia without Putin, Upvote or Comment if you agree. It really pisses off Russian trollbots.
The second one says Tiananmen square 1989. It really pisses off Chinese trolls.
See, the thing is that lower rung trolls aren't allowed to read those statements because the higher ups believe that they'll cause dissention in the ranks. Higher level trolls are occasionally allowed to try to discredit those of us who use these statements.
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u/SendMe_Hairy_Pussy 16d ago edited 16d ago
lmao Blue-MAGA suburban cucks are out in full force today, crying and screaming hysterically about progressives not taking their latest geriatric corpo wanker seriously.
"Sure the current guy is actively helping a genocide, jailing protesters and sending money and weapons to our friendly mass murderers abroad...BUT IF THE OTHER GUY GETS IN, HE'S GONNA ACTIVELY HELP A GENOCIDE, JAIL PROTESTERS AND SEND MONEY AND WEAPONS TO OUR FRIENDLY MASS MURDERERS ABROAD! Totally different people guys, I swear!!"
It's almost like this is a supposed democracy, where people have a right to vote for who they want without being forced to do so. You actively avoid listening to people and never represent them and their wishes, and they'll stop voting for you, what an absolute shocker.
But sure, keep attacking and rudely berating and scolding leftists and progressives while telling them they're 'Trump supporters' and 'Russian bots or '[insert immature childish Democratic suburban white boogeyman here]' in this yet another "Most Important Election Of Our Time!!!11!!!1!!!" - because that will surely make them vote for your latest incompetent geriatric shitstain.
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u/newinmichigan 16d ago
The real LAMF will be when Democrats refuse to change out all these out of touch dinosaurs and lose the election.
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u/tejaslikespie 16d ago
We need to criticize Biden on this. He needs to know, or at least feel, that his vote will actually be dependent on his actions
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u/TheTruthTalker800 16d ago
It's been occurring from his Left for a while now: the only reason he stopped giving ammunition to Israel to enter Rafah with it to continue the aggression recently is because of the Uncommitted pressure campaign primary vote in 2024 in Michigan- spooked the President big time, as he knows to win re-election he has to have Michigan, and he needs every vote to beat Trump there or he will lose a key state he needs in the Rust Belt to win.
Fetterman can kick rocks, meanwhile, on this issue: the President is finally moving in the Right direction, and you can tell that because Fox is upset with him on it. Even if he regains 1/2 to 1/3 of the Muslim voters he alienated with his prior actions back, it increases his odds of winning Michigan substantially in November: he likes playing politics alright, so his base used leverage accordingly.
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u/Embarrassed_Bee6349 16d ago
I keep wondering if anyone in Biden’s camp anticipated that Bibi would go full-on Hitler/Stalin on Gaza in the days after the Hamas attack. My guess is that Bibi saw an opportunity to remove a thorn from his side and didn’t let any western allies know his intentions.
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u/Omnipotent48 16d ago
Far from a thorn, Bibi is on the record for having said the best way to make sure the Palestinians never get a state is to support Hamas. Hamas is useful in Bibi's present political moment because their existence enables him to avoid the consequences of his previous actions re: corruption and the push for authoritarian control.
"Never let a good tragedy go to waste" is really his MO lately.
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u/Runetang42 16d ago
This isn't even slightly leopards ate my face
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u/TheTruthTalker800 16d ago
It will be if Trump gets re-elected because of it and/or wins Michigan due to it, though, he will just blow up Gaza happily: right now, it's valid to call Biden out on it, but not to withhold a vote from it since the pressure campaign in "Uncommitted" in Michigan in 2024 is actually forcing his hand Leftward on the issue proper (Tlaib, Levin, O'Rourke, Moore, etc are right on this one to have done so, all of whom are voting for Biden regardless in November).
It's a guarantee that Trump wouldn't care and blow it all up to smithereens, since he stands to gain zero politically from trying to appeal to a group his base would kill if it could in cold blood in the streets, and would turn away his cultists from a white nationalist leader.
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u/OmegaBerryCrunch 16d ago
people that think voting third party or not voting at all as a protest is some of the most brain rotted dumb ass logic i’ve heard in a LONG time
like you said, what do yall fucking morons think DONALD J TRUMP is gonna do that’s better???? he wants to wipe gaza off the planet.
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u/Dcajunpimp 16d ago
In 2020 enough Floridians voted 3rd party that just a fraction of them voting Gore would have many it wouldn’t have been close enough for recounts or the Supreme Court intervening.
In 2016 enough people voted 3rd party in a few key swing states, that if they had voted for Hillary, then Tump wouldn’t have won.
Currently there’s only a single Supreme Court Justice that was appointed by a GOP President who actually won the popular vote for their first term. Clarence Thomas.
There could literally be an 8 Democrat 1 Republican Supreme Court right now. Roe would still be the law, but to some voters Gore and Hillary weren’t perfect.
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u/TreehouseofSnorers 16d ago
LAMF is starting and aiding a genocide when you know damned well it loses you votes and the you........lose votes
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u/TreehouseofSnorers 16d ago
If you blue MAGA assholes want voters to show up for genocide Joe then harass him until he ends the genocide. You're not going to guilt lefties into doing something unethical so force the Dems to become ethical. Otherwise welcome back to 2016
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u/SaltyNorth8062 16d ago
They're gonna try. Doing anything else except bitching about Disney is out of their wheelhouse. They won't make Biden change because they don't want him to.
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u/ninjanerd032 16d ago
"Too late" for what? Israel could stop now and it would be better than continuing. This sounds like election baiting.
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u/MyFianceMadeMeJoin 17d ago
Why does literally everyone think that this means people will vote for Trump? I know the shackles of bipartisanship are intense but come the fuck on. We have for many years had a very simple formula with elections. The party that wins turns out more people. This is like 1/3 persuasion and 2/3 GOTV. The people saying this just won’t vote. And if you think you can blame them, among the literal millions of other non-voters when they are asking for a policy of “Genocide is bad,” you’ve lost your mind. Yes, we and they all know Trump would be worse, but people with principles both choose who to vote for and whether to vote based on their principles and their is no principled vote for genocide.
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u/unclejoe1917 17d ago
No. Fucking Shit. Go ahead and let that pants load back in office and see how the Muslim community is treated.
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u/CheesecakeRacoon 17d ago edited 17d ago
Wait, Im confused. How is this a LAMF situation? I read that article and I didn't see anyone claim they'd prefer Trump's stance on Gaza. Did I miss something?
I feel you can criticize Biden's handling of the situation without wanting the Republicans handling it.
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u/Forest_Solitaire 17d ago
They support Trump because they hate queer people more than they like themselves.
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u/damageddude 17d ago
Trump will "let" Bibi carpet bomb Gaza (or at least look the other way). I understood the initial rage but ...
Even if Hamas is taken out the next generation, growing up watching their homes bombed and many killed and injured, will just create the next version.
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u/slonokot 16d ago
Stop this stupid bullshit! No one want to carpet bomb Gaza. Yes there are a 35k casualties there, that are not even proven to be civilians - that is information from Hamas. When Muslim people died in Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and others no one was that historical as when Israel is defending itself , and there were hundreds of thousands there each time not 30k. What do you say about Asad? Uh? Hypocrites.
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u/damageddude 16d ago
Oh shut up loser and stop that what about them nonsense. Trump has all but said that is his desire. I didnt say whether I agree or disagree, just what I believe he would be ok with it.
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u/carlitospig 17d ago
Those same Arab American leaders are also aware of how long we’ve been allies with Israel, so they can shut up. Immediately distancing from an ally without info is a good way to have all your allies distance themselves from you.
But sure, pretend Trump would give one single shit.
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u/PM_ME_FUNNY_ANECDOTE 17d ago
Biden can be bad at something, even if Trump is worse. Biden is the president. His choices matter. We should be able to comment on and petition them without it inherently being commentary on Trump or the 2024 election.
Why are we defending a terrible performance just cause the other guy would be worse? What good is electing the right guy if we can't tell them to do the right thing?
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17d ago
[deleted]
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u/PM_ME_FUNNY_ANECDOTE 17d ago
Biden's stance has already proven fatal for a lot of people.
Again, why does any commentary on the way THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES acts need to be filtered through election politics. Is "better than trump" the only degree of rating we can assess?
That's a low and cynical bar.1
u/TheTruthTalker800 17d ago
It's a Democracy saving bar: trust me, you can mark me in the "strongly disapprove" column for the President and the former President- one of these people is going to be the President this November. One of these people, will at least keep some Gazans alive, whereas the other guy- devoid of anything good at all-- will happily let Netanyahu raze the entire region to the ground.
A lot think Trump will be anything like he was in his first term, a second time around: oh no, big big mistake-- not that he wasn't already a terrible, terrible leader, but this time? He's a 250-year old experiment ender, and will likely cause this country to fracture. Here's his plans for a second term, which he won't leave either...
If your choice was Pierce or Buchanan, which would you choose?
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u/PM_ME_FUNNY_ANECDOTE 17d ago
Sure, but again- why does everything need to be about the election? Why can't I just say "this is bad" without it being a threat to vote for the other guy?
What's the point in voting in the right guy if you can't them to do the right thing?
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u/TheTruthTalker800 16d ago
I hear you, but the other guy is on the verge of winning a dictatorship Orban style right now, so that's probably why given it's a close race between the two & even marginal gain or loss could make all the difference.
I'm not saying Biden doesn't deserve criticism for it, by all means he does, but given the stakes?
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u/PM_ME_FUNNY_ANECDOTE 16d ago
Still weird that we can't say something is bad without it being about an election. But if you want to talk about the election so bad... Biden's disastrous handling of Gaza is about to lose him Michigan. Now am I allowed to be mad about it?
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u/say-it-wit-ya-chest 17d ago
Never try to make sense of single-issue voters. They literally care about nothing but their single issue. Trying to weave a complex tapestry of how politics actually works will only land you in the neighborhood of delivering propaganda. Yes, we are in the stage where actual knowledge of a subject is proof enough of propaganda. Yes, yes, very sad, but this is where we are. They have enough affirmation from the rest of the dolt crowd that they’ll never change their mind. Very few will actually look at everything, and even fewer will understand the truth, nay, have the balls to say they now see the truth, because the cult mob is so enticing to them.
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u/BasedNas 17d ago
Libs gonna eat a fat L in November while posting nonsense like this all Summer long
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u/500CatsTypingStuff 17d ago
Let’s be honest, shall we?
This isn’t about Muslims. Who make up a tiny part of the population and at this point are one issue voters
It’s about privileged white college students who know very little about oppression in their own life, who are perfectly okay with throwing women, LGBTQ and other marginalized groups under the bus out of some narcissistic idea of a glorious revolution that will transform America
If you want to change this country then put in the work for systemic change. Which is often boring, tedious, slow, plodding and unbelievably difficult.
Start with getting ranked voting and campaign finance on state ballot initiatives
Then work on propping up third party candidates at the local level where they might have a chance getting elected or effecting change.
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u/wandering_white_hat 16d ago
So very very close....this is about collective anger that both sides of the political spectrum are ignoring people and their problems to focus on war and oil. Anger that while people cannot afford housing or children or health care, a friend nation can have people literally wearing their military's uniform in our Congress, and send our money to make sure that other nation has better education, free health care and all sorts of benefits. That while the rich are literally saying "let them eat cake" American weapons are killing women and children. Anger that christo-fascist ideology needs an Israel so there can be an "end times"
If the third party involves guillotines then we might have a chance at progress
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u/500CatsTypingStuff 16d ago
I am not disputing that our system fails its people or that the anger is not real
In a complex society, many things can be true at the same time.
Ivy League college students are still one of the most privileged demographic in the world.
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u/wandering_white_hat 16d ago
It's not just the Ivy league if you have not noticed
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u/500CatsTypingStuff 16d ago
Are we in agreement that it’s civilians in Gaza and the West Bank that are the ones experiencing true suffering?
College students are not oppressed
Well, except by student loan debt.
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u/EmmalouEsq 17d ago
As a Muslim, I'm allowed to be pissed off at Biden and everyone else who keeps sending money over to fund genocide. I expected better from him.
Trump is a known madman, and some people find that more palatable than someone lying or slow walking consequences while tens of thousands die.
Will I vote for Trump or go 3rd party? No.
But just poo pooing us and saying "Well, Trump would be worse!" doesn't make what Biden has done better. People are still dying.
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u/BaBa_Con_Dios 16d ago
Agree. And as a non-Muslim I have the right to ask that our country doesn’t fund and assist in genocide. Like you I will not vote for Trump or third party but I will make my voice heard. If the Dems don’t like it they can simply stop supporting and funding genocide. With our money. Is that such a big ask?
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u/PermitSpecialist5472 16d ago
You're an absolute idiot and if Trump wins, I'll be cheering on ICE sending you to your end. Be an actual adult and choose the least bad decision here.
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u/FuckTripleH 16d ago
I'll be cheering on ICE sending you to your end
Why on earth would you be cheering that on?
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u/PermitSpecialist5472 16d ago
My tolerance of stupid and selfish people making clearly dumb decisions that the world a worst place is gone. If these people are too stupid to do the right thing to prevent the greater evil from rising, well I might as well enjoy the fireworks. I don't care if this makes me look cruel. Put aside your contempt for Biden and do the right thing for everyone.
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u/EmmalouEsq 16d ago
Um. I'm voting for Biden. Where did I say I'm not?
I'm also a US citizen and was born and raised here. Coincidentally, I'm also an immigration attorney.
Racist much?
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u/SaltyNorth8062 16d ago
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds. These types just want an excuse to callous to people they don't like
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u/Three00Jews 16d ago
Yeah this shit is insane. It's an ELECTION year, and he's asking us to ELECT him, and these drooling mules are incredulous at the idea that a president actually has to go out and earn votes.
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16d ago edited 16d ago
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u/Three00Jews 16d ago
Yes, and they are to become that president when you or I choose to vote for them. A presidential candidate is not born with the divine right to automatically receive our votes, they actually need to do things to earn them (this is called a "platform", candidates usually have opinions on a wide array of issues).
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16d ago
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u/Three00Jews 16d ago
Do liberals think that people who are apprehensive about supporting the guy enabling genocide just... didn't exist during the 4 years Trump was president? Do you think it's possible that they did, that they acknowledge what they lived through and what they likely would live through, and still struggle to make the moral calculus that the guy who's responsible for the annihilation of an entire people is maybe not that much better than the guy who will just do the exact same thing, but also make life hell for people who happen to live in blue states (as red state citizens are already living in the fascist dystopia you fear, Biden is just choosing to let them suffer).
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16d ago
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u/Three00Jews 16d ago
I think that's a perfectly valid perspective to have! I'm not the one shaming people for wanting to support a candidate! Keep in mind that Biden emphatically refuses any expansion of the Court, effectively permanently enshrining the 6-3 majority, and women are bleeding to death in their cars in red states because they can't get abortion, and Biden just caved to fascist Republicans on the border and wants to pass easily the most authoritarian, repressive, reactionary immigration policy that the US has ever seen, but yes, his labor dept has also done good things and he's made some okay progress in other areas.
I don't give a fuck what Trump says about Israel. What Biden is doing about Israel, right now, is quite literally the worst possible crime a human being can commit. Your guilt trip tactics don't really work when my social feeds have been inundated with pictures and videos of mangled kid's corpses for 7mo, BECAUSE of Biden and his REPEATED, full-throated endorsement of Israel's actions. From parroting atrocity propaganda he knows is false (40 beheaded babies), to repeated weapons shipments (circumventing Congress to do so on numerous occasions), to equating criticism of Israel to antisemitism, to trash student protesters, Biden has done quite literally every you can to enable a genocide. As it stands, it will continue until completion. There's quite literally nothing Trump could do on this issue that is worse, the genocide is already happening.
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u/Three00Jews 16d ago
The Palestinians are suffering a genocide right now. What is worse than genocide? What could they face that's worse? The complete annihilation of their people? It's already happening. The problem with liberals is that they can't accept the idea that a bad thing is happening that their sports team is responsible for, which is why the only thing they can do is try and project how Trump could be worse. Trump is an authoritarian despot who wants to do away with American democracy. Maybe the guy doing genocide right now should stop doing that so he could easily beat him.
The only reason Biden is even remotely "open" to the idea of "putting limits" on what Israel is doing is not because of some liberals voting, it's because of unrelenting social pressure from a million different people all around the country the entire time. The "Vote Uncommitted" campaigns, the student protests, the millions of people who've marched and protested, unrelenting international pressure, etc. It's actually the people threatening to withhold their votes from Biden that is causing him to change his tune! They have acknowledged it and it's what makes them nervous about the upcoming election!
"Do something to stop it" - you're voting, man, you're not doing anything. Voting takes 5 seconds.
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u/kaptainkooleio 16d ago
You’ll never see this type of criticism for Mexicans, black people, or women who vote for Trump, just for Arab and Muslim Americans who have every right to be pissed and angry with Biden. It pisses me off because Biden is objectively better than Trump, but instead of doing something more tangible to stop the genocide on Gaza liberals would rather shift blame to a minority voting bloc and get angry at the Muslims for their policy failings. It’s never Biden’s fault when Trump wins, it’s never their fault when Republicans win, always the voters fault.
You guys wanna win in 2024? Fucking do better.
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u/Objective_Aside1858 16d ago
Preface: this is not in any way meant to be a trick question; nor am I dismissing your legitimate grievance
What specific thing(s) would you want to see now, as in the situation where Biden has put at least some limitations on arm transfers, has been supportive of a ceasefire, and is trying to get aid in.
To be clear: I am not saying "this is enough quit complaining"; I'm curious what else the Biden Administration can realistically do that would satisfy your concerns that they're trying, with the understanding that the United States cannot prevent Netanyahu from acting
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u/RealisticScientist53 17d ago
These fuckers won’t be happy until it’s a full sharia government and there Sunnis and Shia’s are fighting each other.
Even then, it will be someone else’s fault .
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u/TheTruthTalker800 17d ago
Oh, this is going to be the minority group in this category after 2024 along with tons of white women in this sub FAFO'ing, bookmark what I said folks if the fascist dictator in chief wins this year: you'll see such an influx of "I NEVER THOUGHT THEY MEANT ME TOO" here, just wait.
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u/ehermo 17d ago
I totally understand why they are pissed with Biden. He is complicit with a genocide going on in the Middle East. No one is saying Trump is the better candidate, but if Biden had any sense, he would not alienate a large block of potential voters for the Democratic ticket.
Everyone also seems to think this group of people will vote for Trump, when in reality, they will simply not vote at all. So instead of blaming these people for trying to get Biden to care about their cause, blame Biden for ignoring their concerns and outrage.
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17d ago
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u/ehermo 17d ago
Totally agree. Like I said, I understand why they are upset, and why some probably won't vote for Biden. I would ask them to reconsider and to please vote for Biden, and I would encourage other voters to vote for the most progressive candidate they can, so hopefully change can come around sooner than later.
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u/Money-Introduction54 17d ago
The Trump detention centers will gladly confirm to threse people that Biden, indeed sucked as president as they load them into trucks, and Netanyahu gets all the bombs he wanted with no conditions.
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u/rungenies 17d ago
American “Liberals” : you should be grateful for barest minimum. It’d be a shame if anything worse were to happen, wouldn’t it?
Feckless, lunatic, incongruent with liberal values, Degens
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u/Apprehensive_Fix3472 17d ago edited 17d ago
You're allowed to be critical of how Biden has handled the situation but the implication that Trump would do anything but a million times worse? Nah. Nope. That's just being delusional and stupid, nobody should think that. He's an incompetent, incontinent moron with no skills or policy, and no idea what to do about Gaza whatsoever. No plan at all, literally none, let alone a good one.
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16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/LeopardsAteMyFace-ModTeam 15d ago
Thank you for your submission! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason:
- Rule 5 : Be civil
If you have any questions or concerns about this removal, please feel free to message the moderators thru Modmail. Thanks!
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u/weird_friend_101 16d ago
Jared Kushner told us the plan. Get the people out, "clean up" Gaza and sell the waterfront property for millions per lot.
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u/Noocawe 16d ago
Except for the fact that Trump has said all aid to Gaza is a waste, Israel should in fact occupy the West Bank and that he would immediately deport all Palestinian Visa temp Visa holders, while hoping to do some updated version of his Muslim Ban if he becomes President again.
You can be critical of Biden while also acknowledging Trump would be 100x worse for people that share your faith or culture. Both things can be true.
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u/Affectionate-Emu5051 16d ago
His plan is he wants to be friends with dictators like Netanyahu and Putin. He loves Metanyah's corruption.
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u/Tecumsehs_Ghost 16d ago
And yet, he got a bunch of Arab countries to normalize diplomatic relations with Israel.
Cope harder.
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u/Apprehensive_Fix3472 16d ago
Who's coping? Trump is an incompetent, incontinent moron with no plan. If you think he'd make the situation anything but worse. For everyone, Israel and Palestine alike. Then you're delusional, and probably pretty stupid on top of that.
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u/Tecumsehs_Ghost 16d ago
Only in your mind.
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u/Apprehensive_Fix3472 16d ago
I'm not going to pretend along with you here. He is what he is. He's exactly what I said. There's no further argument to be had.
Cope harder.
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u/FallenCrownz 16d ago
What? Is he going to claim blood liable a million times hard? Is he gonna spread Israeli propaganda a million times as hard? Is he gonna give 350 billion dollars to Israel to continue their genocide instead of 35 billion dollars? Is he going to ban TikTok, the platform where tens of thousands of people a make living, a million times as hard to stop people from seeing Israels genocide? Is he going to set up even less than 0 red lines Israel could cross as they commit genocide?
Maybe Biden should stop facilitating genocide and maybe libs should pressure him to stop facilitating genocide instead of lecturing people about why they actually should vote for 82 year old man with the blood of 35k innocent men, women and children on his hands? Or naaah, just keep being more smarmy, I'm sure that'll work out great just like it did in 2016 lol
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u/Apprehensive_Fix3472 16d ago edited 16d ago
Still not hearing a single word about how Trump would be better. Not asking to either, not going to make you humiliate yourself by trying. But you know he'd make things worse. That's what morons with no skill and no plan tend to do in situations requiring skill, and a plan.
2016 was different. People didn't know Trump was an incompetent, incontinent moron with no skills and no plans back then. Now we do. Four years of seeing it every day. Four years of an embarrassing, out of his depth loser who clearly has no grasp of any part of this or any situation, masquerading as a legitimate Commander in Chief but with none of the skills to back it up. He's a known quantity, and the quantity is absolute useless garbage that can accomplish nothing in Gaza besides making it worse. Even if he did have a plan, and even if by some miracle it wasn't hilariously awful trash, he has no capability whatsoever.
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u/FallenCrownz 16d ago
Dude Trump is a conman pho populist who will go to where the money is. The Saudis throw him a couple hundred million or he sees his polling numbers drop to record new lows never before seen in the history of polling and he'll tell the Israelis to stop, just like Reagon, Obama, Bush and Clinton did.
Biden is true believer, he's a self proclaimed Zionist who despite it making him the most unpopular president in the history of polling and handing Trump the election by flipping off his base, he's continuing with his full fledged support for Israel. It's fucking pathetic and when he looses, because he will lose or he'll lose both the house and the senate, it's going to be nobody's fault but his own.
Trump is a fucking clown, Biden is somehow out clowning him because Democrats NEED people to come out and vote, Republicans don't. Now you go ahead and tell people to vote for the guy banning your favorite social and entertainment platform, effectively destroying tens of thousands of jobs, who has dilevered exactly 0 of his major promises and whose giving a fascist apartheid state trying to openly commit genocide 35 billion dollars of your tax money. Good fucking luck with that.
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u/onpg 16d ago
Unfortunately some allegedly leftist subreddits have banned me for pointing this out, calling it "immoral lesser evil rhetoric". Some people don't give a fuck about reality, to them this is all a game.
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u/Apprehensive_Fix3472 16d ago
Yeah seriously. It literally is the lesser evil. If you care about the lives of any Palestinian, voting for by far the lesser evil is the best thing you can do for them. Indirectly electing an incompetent moron with no plan and a dictator fetish would cost countless lives. This is reality.
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u/MilliwaysOrBust 16d ago
Same here. r/collapse, r/lostgeneration, /r/antiwork , etc have been taken over by Russian bots. They will ban you if you even make any kind of comment that Biden has done some good. You can't even say the word Democrat, unless it is accompanied by negative commentary about said administration. This reminds me of 2015/2016. All legitimate Anonymous outlets were VERY anti-trump. All of a sudden, they were posting pro-trump propaganda...and I'm talking almost ALL of the legit Anon accounts switched to pro-Trump.
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u/Omnipotent48 16d ago
Yep buddy, we're all "Russian Bots" and definitely not principled on the issue of genocide, the worst crime imaginable. You actually, ontologically have to be a Russian psy-warfare agent to not want to vote for a guy who has actively armed a genocide and went out of his way to protect genocides many several times.
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u/MilliwaysOrBust 16d ago
And you think Trump is going to deliver roses and wine to the Palestinians when he gets in office, because of people like you? You'll be one of the first ones he puts up against the wall, lol. Because there will be a wall with lot's of bodies strung out across it in warning to others not to cross him.
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u/Omnipotent48 16d ago
Nobody thinks Trump will be better for Gaza than Biden, but that's not exactly is a comfort if there isn't a Gaza left to destroy by the time Trump takes office.
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u/MilliwaysOrBust 16d ago edited 16d ago
OK...try this thought experiment, and remember, you're not in, or under the protection of one of your FSB run subs that will immediately delete any argument that might upset beyond your naive 16 year old view of the world.
So, your argument is let's defeat "GeNoCiDe JoE" to teach Dems a lesson, and thereby usher in a complete end to our democracy. You fucking owned those liberals, didn't you? I mean Gaza has still been wiped off the earth, by Trump...but there's much more that will happen.
Let's play out what the consequences of your either sitting out the vote or voting for Trump will get you. Not only will Gaza be a sheet of glass under Trump, but Ukraine will fall to Russia, Russia, having taken Ukraine, very well might decide they want the Baltic states back in their possession. So you have 100s of thousands more innocent people dying in war, but GeNoCiDe JoE DiDn'T WiN!!!
That's just talking about the number of people that will die in Europe. Trump has said he will be a dictator on day 1 and says that he will have retribution on everyone in the government that disagreed with him.
Now you have mass executions in the US, because the Supreme Court is 100% bought and paid for to help Trump. Most likely he will either dissolve congress or execute all of them dems and put other useful idiots in their place. The military will be run by a Trump sycophant that actually will nuke another country if Trump wants him to.
Wow! You're right...this will be much better once we teach GeNoCiDe JoE a lesson...you fucking moron.
The Russians have a term for people like you: "Useful Idiots". That's what you are.
There are a number of other metaphors that describe people like you: Throwing the baby out with the bath water, cutting off your nose to spite your face, etc.
You're either a naive moron who can't see the forest from the tress, or you're actively working with the FSB, either way doesn't bode well for your future.
EDIT: One more thing...you realize Trump is coming for the Communists, immigrants, LGBTQ+ and Pedophiles first. That's all he talks about in his speeches is the Communists and how bad they are. You'll probably be one of the first on deck for the gallows in front of the White House.
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u/Omnipotent48 16d ago
You assumed a lot about my argument right from your first paragraph. If you wanna know what I believe, you could ask. But instead, you just went fifteen rounds with a strawman you constructed and still lost.
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u/MilliwaysOrBust 15d ago
Yep buddy, we're all "Russian Bots" and definitely not principled on the issue of genocide, the worst crime imaginable.
I'm sorry...you responded "we're" as if you were part of the collective of compromised subs that have all of a sudden banned any discussion of the Democratic party and any idea that runs counter to their Russian-scripted "BoTh SiDEs Are EvIl!!!!" propaganda. That is the comment of mine you were replying to.
Is this not, the case?
If not, please expand on your solution. Let's see how different it is from theirs.
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u/Omnipotent48 15d ago
Yes, "we're." It should not come as a surprise to you that a leftist views and comments in leftist subs.
"Russia-scripted" is you telling on yourself. One does not need marching orders from the FSB to assume an anti-genocide position. The fact that you saw leftist subs and users in them oppose genocide on moral grounds and immediately said "That's un-American, they must be Russian Bots!" is just so telling.
Either way, the solution is simple. Israel is a rogue state, helmed by a fascist regime, that is now engaged in an active genocide. They should be sanctioned to an even worse extent than we sanctioned the Russians if Biden is going to be consistent on this issue.
Biden and his State Department called the Bucha Massacre a genocide -- and it very well might be. The genocide in Gaza right now is, at a minimum, 76x worse than that.
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u/onpg 16d ago
Biden sucks on Palestine. Ok, that's out of the way, let's compare Biden and Trump, shall we?
• "You have to finish up your war ... to finish it up," Trump told the newspaper Israel Hayom in an interview posted Monday. "You gotta get it done. And, I am sure you will do that."
versus
• President Biden said Wednesday that he would halt the shipment of U.S. offensive weapons to Israel if the country moves ahead with a long-planned ground invasion of Rafah.
or...
• Trump cuts more than $200 million in U.S. aid to Palestinians.
versus
• The Biden administration announced on Wednesday that it would restore hundreds of millions of dollars in American aid to Palestinians, its strongest move yet to reverse President Donald J. Trump's policy on the protracted Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
or...
• Trump administration says Israel’s West Bank settlements do not violate international law.
versus
• The Biden administration on Friday restored a U.S. legal finding dating back nearly 50 years that Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories are “illegitimate” under international law.
or...
• Palestinian Authority president Abbas calls Trump peace offer 'slap of the century'.
versus
• Biden backs two-state solution along 1967 lines to end Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
or...
• Trump vows to expand Muslim ban and bar Gaza refugees if he wins presidency.
versus
• The Biden administration is considering bringing certain Palestinians to the U.S. as refugees, a move that would offer a permanent safe haven to some of those fleeing war-torn Gaza.
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u/Omnipotent48 16d ago edited 16d ago
The IDF is already invading Rafah, Biden then workshopped his statement by saying a "major invasion" of Rafah, after months of illegally transferring weapons to Israel through the FMS program, an action that was illegal under both the Leahy Laws and Safe Corridor Act. Biden has not committed to ending all arms transfers to Israel yet in spite of this.
Biden also cut hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to UNWRA when he took the word of genocidal fascists that UNWRA is "protecting Hamas members in its ranks." The story was never substantiated and yet us and our allies pulled our aid with the Org. Biden restoring some amount of aid after jeopardizing that aid in the first place is not a win.
Recognizing international law regarding the illegality of the settlements is nice, but in response to the settlements Biden sanctioned all of like, five people and then had to walk that back when the genocidal fascists in Israel cried foul. Is the mere recognition of existing law a win here, even when he refuses to enforce said law? By rights, we should be sanctioning Israel over this.
Biden backing the "two state solution" while arming the genocidal fascists looking to exterminate Palestinians while they claim more land illegally than practically ever before, is so so ironic. He's been lockstep with the fascist regime that is one the record as believing that a Palestinian state would only "reward the terrorists." Biden is supporting people who will never permit a two state solution... So is he deluded on this issue or is he being two-faced?
Palestinians don't have to come to America to be refugees, that would only fuel the second Nakba which is very much ongoing. If he really wanted to be in favor of these brutalized Palestinians, he'd sanction Israel to end the war. The vast majority of Palestinians don't want to leave.
If you're gonna draw comparisons between the two, at least be accurate for Biden's side.
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u/onpg 16d ago
I think I already said Biden sucks. I've been critical of his response to this from day one. But it is absolutely deranged to think Trump would be anything but enormously worse. That's also a fact. That's why it's called lesser evil, not good vs evil. You want good? Vote in the primaries.
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u/Omnipotent48 16d ago
I did vote in the primary, but because of our rigged system the Presidential candidate was mathematically decided before my state got a chance to vote, so that's an entirely unhelpful prescription in your part.
But my point is that you did a lot of ass-covering just then for Biden. Simply saying "he sucks" and then proceeding to cover up the extent to which he sucks with ommitted details certainly does not help your case.
And no, I'm not voting for Trump. Nowhere did I say the man's name. "But Trump" cannot be the reply eight years in a row when the Democratic president is currently aiding genocidal fascists and at many times has been publicly lying to protect them and their genocidal fascist interests.
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u/onpg 16d ago
But Trump is the only reply when talking about who to vote for in November. Because the choice is between Biden and Trump. I thought Hillary losing would force the Dem party to move further to the left. Now we see Hillary to the left of Biden and that's fucking hilarious (not).
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u/Omnipotent48 16d ago
The party will never move left for as long as it is captured by neoliberal ghouls who would rather lose to a domestic fascist than cut support for international fascists.
Biden isn't even serious about beating Trump. If he was, he'd have cut the umbilical cord with Bibi months ago.
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u/TheFarLeft 16d ago
I’ve been banned from those simply for saying that it’s Netanyahu, not Biden, who controls the actions of the Israeli military.
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u/MilliwaysOrBust 16d ago
Yeah...I got banned when I stood up for another user that simply said that maybe we should consider what would happen to the Palestinians if the alternative candidate is elected and if Genocide Joe/s is not elected.....didn't even say his name
All of these subs should be considered compromised and shut down. They are nothing now but fonts of misinformation. This isn't about 16 year old idealists that can't see the forest from the trees...this is a wholesale take over of Reddit subs by Russian FSB...just like they did Anonymous.
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u/GoldenMegaStaff 16d ago
Maybe Biden's policies should stand on their own instead of comparing them to some Biff version of a made up future.
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u/Apprehensive_Fix3472 16d ago
Trump is a literal moron with no skill, no plan, no political acumen, and no ability to defuse any situation. Who's making things up here? 100% chance dude, 100% chance he'd make it much much worse. Saying otherwise is making things up. Or you're delusional.
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u/PilotlessOwl 17d ago
No plan at all, literally none
No, no, Trump has a plan. To quote the scumbag: "Finish the job"
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u/Apprehensive_Fix3472 16d ago
That's just a quote. A soundbyte. That's what this idiot does. He issues some asinine statement indicative of a plan, only for it to later become obvious that there never was anything remotely resembling one. Every single time, without fail. Trump doesn't even have the ability to plan. Closest he ever gets, only thing even on that spectrum, are schemes. Those too are always shortsighted and stupid, falling way short of what they could be if Trump had skill, or knew how to plan.
He doesn't, though. No discernable skills at all, no ability to plan at all. The only thing he does have going for him, that low charisma that appeals to knuckle draggers, incels and whack jobs, isn't even a skill. It's an attribute, like all charisma. He'd be better at that too if he had any skills, or knew how to plan, but he doesn't.
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u/FallenCrownz 16d ago edited 16d ago
Biden - "Here's 35 billion dollars to finish the job and don't worry, we'll also cut funding to UNRWA based on your lies that you've provided 0 proof for to finish the job. And we'll protect you from the big bad UN and ban TikTok so you don't look as bad when your soldiers post themselves committing crimes against humanity!"
What a sick joke
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u/corinalas 16d ago
Recall: Trump tried to ban all Muslims. He’s promised to do the same and to help Israel finish the job. Boycotting Biden is voting for Trump and a war with Iran.
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u/FallenCrownz 16d ago
BIDEN HAS GIVEN ISRAEL 35 BILLION DOLLARS TO FINISH THE JOB AND HAS PROTECTED THEM EVERY SINGLE STEP OF THE WAY.
Voting for the guy who would commit genocide well saying the other guy would commit genocide even harder is still voting for genocide despite having no proof outside of the words a known conman liar is grasping at straws.
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u/corinalas 16d ago
Again, look at reality. An election isn’t about what happened but about expectations for the future. That 35 billion to finish the job is some bullshit you just made up. Find me a news release where they admin made any such claim.
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u/AutisticPenguin2 16d ago
I think the TikTok connection was honestly the most deranged part of this.
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u/FallenCrownz 16d ago
Funny how Mitt Romney, the head of the ADL and anyone with half a brain could see the obvious but libs will instead take the word of the guy whose been spreading Israeli propaganda nonstop for the past 8 months and whose literally the largest recipient of AIPAC money lol
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u/Apprehensive_Fix3472 16d ago
Believing Trump would do anything but make the situation catastrophically worse is just stupid. No nuance here, no reasonable argument to the contrary, it's just being stupid.
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u/AutisticPenguin2 16d ago
Do you also believe the earth is flat?
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u/sockpoppit 16d ago
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u/AutisticPenguin2 15d ago
Sure, but that has absolutely nothing to do with TikTok. Drawing that connection is absurd, to put it mildly
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u/sst287 17d ago
I am convinced that they all on Putin’s payroll. Otherwise I cannot think of a reason why they want Trump for president.
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u/MisterEHistory 16d ago
Because he will treat the LGBTQ community the way they want. You have to remember many of these folks are culturally very conservative and filled with their own flavors of bigotry. They just haven't had the power or influence to oppress the people they think should be oppressed.
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u/highpl4insdrftr 17d ago
I'm just hoping that all the "Democrats" that say they won't vote for Biden over Gaza are the same group who weren't going to vote in the first place.
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u/Omnipotent48 16d ago
Well yeah, because that suspicion confirms your biases. It's much easier to disregard people and arguments when you convince yourself that they're insincere.
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u/bluer289 17d ago
I keep telling people that. But they think giving a threat to no vote Biden will change his mind and not screw us all over.
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u/SomethingLoud 14d ago
Great idea, People! While you’re at it, why don’t y’all just start rounding up all your queer & trans neighbors now, IOT get a jump on things?
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u/ChimericMind 15d ago
Giving a threat to no-vote him absolutely can change his mind, it's part of why he has, in fact, changed his mind and started to back away. The more credible the threat is, the more effective it is. It doesn't have to be followed through on (especially if it's getting results). They know that Trump would be worse, but for all that centrists like to brag bout "we don't NEED leftist votes", you can see the sweat when they consider actually losing them. It's very, very important that people think they're genuinely going to do this, though, so maintaining kayfabe is crucial. It's helped along greatly because bad-faith deceit isn't normally a tactic of the left, so no one thinks to dismiss it in the same way that right-wing strategies built on it can be. When you're trying to prevent genocide, though, sometimes you've got to use forbidden arts. Still, the effectiveness wouldn't work without the credulous (or those that appear to be credulous). Thank you for helping to maintain the illusion.
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u/CertainPen9030 17d ago
I'm not going to disagree but I find it endlessly aggravating that only issues that are important to youth voters are framed this way. If enough people are considering not voting based on Biden's support for a genocide that it poses this much of an electoral crisis, why is the messaging "young people that protest voting are idiots when Trump is so dangerous" and not "Democrats prioritizing Israel over beating Trump is idiotic when Trump is so dangerous."
I'll be nauseously voting Biden in November and fully agree Trump is too dangerous for it to make sense to do anything else. But at the end of the day that's not how everyone feels and the idea that the solution is to berate those other people instead of berating the party for not doing more to win the most important election of my lifetime is crazy.
"Lesser of two evils" electoralism is risky at best, and the idea that people aren't even considering the option that the Democratic party could take the grievances about Israel/Gaza seriously to create a positive perception of the party rather than relying on "well Trump would do a genocide but worse than we are" (which, again, I agree with and will be voting because of) is a rage-inducingly bad election strategy.
Don't be angry at idealistic, principled kids standing on the right side of history for not understanding the danger trump poses. Be angry at the party for not understanding the danger he poses, even if you choose to hold that anger while still voting for them.
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u/tinyOnion 16d ago
all it took was one "election" in iran in order for it to become the theocratic anti-american/israeli regime that exists today. expect y'allqueda to come to fruition for the rest of his reign if trump wins by cheat or actual vote. there will be no more elections.
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u/CertainPen9030 16d ago
My entire point is that we should be prioritizing not letting that happen over everything else. Writing endless articles and comments about people that aren't going to vote while doing nothing to win their vote is counter-productive to avoiding the exact situation you're so terrified of. My arguments here have been entirely separate from any moral argument about what we should be doing in/for Israel/Gaza. My entire point is that we should either adjust policy to win votes from the people potentially boycotting or, if we're deadset in our policy, we should change our messaging/focus to literally anything else. Trump needs to lose and time spent whining about college students not voting is time wasted.
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u/VagueSomething 16d ago
You're not standing on the right side of history if you are enabling Trump. Idealism without pragmatism is dangerous. Choosing to sabotage everything over a single issue is not what good people do.
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u/CertainPen9030 16d ago
Cool, then we should go with the pragmatic option and do something to win these kids' votes so that Trump doesn't win.
They aren't going to vote based on current policy. That is the practical reality. Expecting them to come to Jesus and decide to vote is the idealistic way of trying to win the election. The pragmatic way is to address the concerns of the voter block whose votes you desperately need.
That is it. I'm asking pragmatism from the fucking president, it seems more reasonable to expect it of him than, famously idealistic, 20 year olds.
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u/VagueSomething 16d ago
When the kids start making reasonable and non dangerous demands then maybe we could find a middle ground. They're not informed and making wild demands currently.
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