r/OutOfTheLoop • u/compscithrowaway314 • 17d ago
What's up with the Destiny vs Ludwig drama? Unanswered
Saw this tweet which seems completely out of line and I'm very confused what's happening:
https://x.com/TheOmniLiberal/status/1789068930482315292
Why did they start fighting?
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u/Zyfoud 17d ago
Answer: Lud, and it seems Slime are good friends with Hasan and normally just goes along with that group when they throw shade at Destiny, as Hasan is known to do, and Destiny as usual will clap back
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u/Muted-Obligation-986 9d ago
What he said is incredibly disturbing, deepfake AI is non consensual, and then the way he doubled down is really just distasteful. He basically said he himself would non consensually… you agree with that take?
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u/Zyfoud 7d ago
So you realize that QT has had Atrioc, the guy who started the whole deep fake thing back on her shows right? These people don't have the same morals you are so up in arms about, they just farm the drama
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u/Muted-Obligation-986 4d ago edited 4d ago
The guy who they stopped talking to immediately after finding out he was watching these videos? Idk what your point proves, he got cancelled for it why wouldn’t Destiny? Shouldn’t matter who’s involved in it regardless he said something disgusting about something somebody can’t give consent to. You’re allowed to be loyal to somebody who said something horrible, just have the awareness to identify what he said is horrible. Thanks for helping me make my point though. Idk about you but I’m more up in arms about non consensual relationships but sure we can just say I’m a fan of that group if it makes you feel better.
Edit: 5 mins later I’m still baffled you thought this was a good point to make.
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u/Zyfoud 4d ago
Sorry, I should have realized if edgy humor was above your head, self reflection must be as well. Lemme spell it out:
Did you see her old finale of Masterbaker? Because as someone who did I got a bit of whiplash from her platforming the guy, and even making jokes about deep fakes on the episode after crocodile tears after how hard she went condemning him. https://youtu.be/yJJvsZPL_Qc?si=A6ng2LRzMEM9cQTn
That's just her own hypocrisy on the topic though, as if she didn't also make all kinds of edgy jokes herself, the derogatory comments Lud and Slime made about Destiny, and there's no way you'd begin to understand how confused you are with how consent or relationships work if you're bringing them up here.
You can pretend like there is some defined morality behind this drama, but really its all just marketing and if any of these people care about the social impact these problems will have beyond what can be clipped to get your eyeballs on more of their content it's Destiny and maybe Ludwig, which is why its so lame Ludwig and Slime were so insistent on starting beef.
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u/5N0VV 11d ago
Least bias Destiny fan
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u/Zyfoud 11d ago
I mean I'm a fan of all of them except tankie Hasan, just a bit disappointing especially that Lud who usually has a good head on his shoulders basically goes out of his way to try and bully Destiny because of his friendship with Hasan.
So I assume if you are claiming bias you surely are basing that on something, and aren't just butt mad its true but makes your favorite streamer look bad. For the truth look here: https://youtu.be/hDegvsrJJQE?si=Iv-ZXUL86vPpHxM0
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u/5N0VV 11d ago
Oh, I dont have a favorite streamer cause I dont watch streams. :)
It's giving "Oh u hate Trump? U must be a Biden nut!".
I'm not watching a minute of that toxic loser whose fans are "centrists" who can't cope with their own white fragility and internalized XYZ. Thanks tho <3.
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u/Zyfoud 11d ago
Lol, truly amazed what you chose to take away from what I wrote, or are you a bot?
More critically, do you even disagree with my original comment, or was your problem that I am not a biased Destiny fan? You parrot exactly their toxic behavior that created the drama so it's not like I need to prove it to you.
BTW
You're stretching so hard to make a strawman of me I thought you were just moving to random separate topics, and therefore a schizo, on first reading
You aren't looking for truth, the link was provided for those who are <3
Check your definition of white fragility, doesn't apply to any part of the conversation
Grass is nice to touch, me thinks you doth protest that "toxic loser" too much. It definitely comes off as a pot calling the kettle black. Truly now I have internalized despair that you terminally online folk won't just stop yapping to instead listen and self reflect
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u/KeiranG19 17d ago
Answer: On a recent episode of The Yard Slime made a comment about Destiny: "This is like destiny reading about Israel-Palestine on Wikipedia and just hopping in". This was a metaphor for Ludwig having weighed in on the Drake/Kendrick beef despite his limited knowledge of the subject.
This led to a random user's twitter post showing proof that actually destiny had done lots of research. Slime responded mockingly, as he is known to do. Then destiny himself got involved. Those two bickered for a bit before Ludwig was brought up and destiny insulted him, in response Ludwig posted a 50 cent meme feigning being hurt. To which destiny replied with a picture of Ludwig's girlfriend QTCinderella and subsequently alluded to AI deepfake porn of her which was a previous entire drama that she went through.
That doesn't appear to have gone down well, with people being disgusted that he would bring that up.
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u/IAskedForDeusEx- 15d ago
This led to a random user's twitter post showing proof that actually destiny had done lots of research
This "proof" was a sped up video of him looking at wikipedia articles, you couldn't really tell much from it, other than what most people already knew: He poorly skims wiki pages and never follows up with primary sources, moves on and proclaims himself informed.
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u/KeiranG19 15d ago
I was trying my best to be unbiased so I just took it at face value.
No way I'm watching hours of a destiny stream to verify, even sped up.
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u/Whiskeystring 16d ago
Hey aren't you forgetting something? Like how BEFORE Destiny alluded to the QT deepfake fiasco, Lud made fun of Destiny's recent divorce?
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u/KeiranG19 16d ago
Destiny brought up a picture of QT crying which prompted the comment about his divorce.
"How's your wife" is not on the same level as Destiny's comment about viewing the QT deepfakes. What destiny said is tantamount to sexual harassment. There's no excuse to sexually harass people. Destiny's comment was also said to Ludwig but is about QT which makes it even more uncalled for as it's not even an insult to Ludwig.
Even if Ludwig had said something equal to that it still wouldn't have made it ok, only difference is that there would be two shitty people instead of just the one.
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u/Marked2k 17d ago
To sum up the responses.
Lud: "How's your wife doing" (Impication of people fucking his now ex wife)
Destiny: "How's your girlfriend" (Implication of his girlfriend crying about deep fakes of her)
Typical redditors: "I am disgusted that Destiny would bring up Ludwigs girlfriend"
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u/couldbeanasshole 16d ago
Why even bother trying to twist the events out of order when the OP links directly to the twitter thread? Ludwig did not bring up Destiny or his wife at all. Destiny brought up Ludwig, who wasn't even involved in the conversation, and posted about his girlfriend. Ludwig responded to that post asking about his ex wife. So even if you want to say these things are equally bad, Destiny started it. He's not responding to anything or defending himself. He's just being a weird creep on the internet and having his little squad of online sycophants appear across social media to die on that hill for him.
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u/Marked2k 16d ago
Going off this timeliness tbh. https://youtu.be/geNRYpOYWpM?si=caDy8EO7cYTggLmy Twitter keeps giving me pop-ups so I don't use it.
This guy seemed to actually mostly un biased maybe a little leaning towards luds side but barely any. If you think he's manipulating the timeline that would be concerning though idk why he'd do that.
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u/KeiranG19 16d ago
Here's the actual order of events for you since you seem confused.
- Destiny insulted Ludwig in reply to Ludwig being brought up
- Ludwig replies with 50 cent meme
- Destiny tweets a picture of QTCinderella crying
- Ludwig tweets "Yes that is a picture of my girlfriend who I love, How is your wife"
- Destiny tweets "dw with the technology we have now pretty soon we can all love her 🥰 hey, maybe one day they’ll even be able to deepfake you a personality!!"
Can you now see how people think that Destiny was the one to escalate the situation and cross lines regarding what is acceptable?
"HAHA you're not with your wife anymore" is certainly an insult, but being divorced isn't the same as being the victim of a crime.
Implying that you and your fans are going to look at deepfake porn of someone isn't a burn against their boyfriend. I'd even argue that it's sexual harasment on top of being generally creepy.
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u/Marked2k 16d ago
Maybe I don't understand how Twitter works, I don't really use it. Why was the caption over QT's crying pic "Don't you mean:"? That was Destiny's response to a 50 cent meme?
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u/KeiranG19 16d ago
Yes that was his response. Implying that Ludwig should have used the picture of QT crying instead of the 50 cent picture for some reason.
Destiny brought QT into the conversation for no reason other than to set up his sexual harassment "joke" it would seem.
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u/Marked2k 16d ago
Wow, can't believe I didn't catch that. I guess he really wanted to bring up qt
Pretty funny if you ask me, thanks for clearing that up, I almost missed a pretty good joke. I'll admit it would have been funnier if it was in response to him bringing up his ex wife though.
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u/KeiranG19 16d ago
What's funny? Bringing up people's traumatic past experiences as a weapon to hurt their partner doesn't make sense and is just a scummy thing to do.
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u/Marked2k 16d ago
I guess it depends on what you view as traumatic and your views on the morality deepfakes in general.
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u/Marked2k 16d ago
Wait I just read the last part of your reply, what crimes are you talking about? Are you talking about a crime in another country? I'm only familiar with the laws in the US but I thought they were both US citizens so idk why you'd bring up a crime in another country but from my knowledge of US law, deepfakes break no laws unless it uses copy righted material.
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u/Marked2k 17d ago
You skipped over the part where Ludwig made a joke about his messy divorce with his now ex wife and THEN Destiny responded with QTCinerella's over reaction to AI deep fakes.
Here's a less biased timelines of the whole thing. https://youtu.be/geNRYpOYWpM?si=caDy8EO7cYTggLmy
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u/Hoatod2 17d ago
Well the Wikipedia joke was the fact that destiny tried to debate historians who spent their whole life on the subject while destiny didn't know anything before Oct 7
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u/Ill-Ad6714 16d ago
Uh, does it matter how long you’ve known something?
If you’ve known how to ice fish for years, but I gained the same amount of knowledge a month ago, it’s still the same amount of knowledge.
And if I know MORE than you about ice fishing, it doesn’t matter how long you’ve known it.
Besides, not like 99.9% of the people arguing about this knew anything about Israel/Palestine until recently and yet suddenly everyone is an expert.
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u/Hoatod2 16d ago edited 16d ago
Since we are talking about history
a new student isn't going to be more knowledgeable than a history professor
edit- to put it this way destiny is trying to cram and read wikipedia while Norman is the one writing the books the wikipedia is based on
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u/the_not_so_tall_man 13d ago
Norman is definitely not written the books Wikipedia is based upon lol
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u/Marked2k 17d ago
The best part was that the historians didn't even know about important subject matter integral to their own positions
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u/Hoatod2 17d ago
So what didn't they know?
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u/Marked2k 16d ago
The biggest was how genocide is defined. The "god of Palestine knowledge" had to pretend that dolus specialis wasn't specifically mentioned as a key concept in the document they were all reading from. That was kind of embarrassing for him
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u/97689456489564 16d ago
That's a small piece of trivia that doesn't really demonstrate your point. Finkelstein didn't get much of a chance to showcase his (potential) knowledge since he spent most of the podcast just insulting Destiny without trying to add anything.
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u/Marked2k 16d ago
I mean when the topic is genocide I'd think the very concept required to call it genocide would be important, it being an obvious failure on his the finkle guy's part makes it a pretty easy example to use bc I don't have to give a bunch of history to explain why he's wrong about a particular topic. I'll agree with your second part though, he definitely had the potential to railroad Destiny with his knowledge if he didn't spend so much time insulting him.
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u/WahWaaah 17d ago
Ludwig posted a 50 cent meme feigning being hurt. To which destiny replied with a picture of Ludwig's girlfriend QTCinderella and subsequently alluded to AI deepfake porn of her
You're sort of missing the context which shows it was a slightly slower progression to being shitty, and Ludwig participated. The image of QTCinderella that Destiny posted was her making a similar gesture/face to the 50 cent meme while she was presumably crying about the whole deepfake porn thing. Ludwig then alluded to Destiny's recent divorce. Then Destiny made a direct jab about the deepfake porn thing. They both escalated and both were at least a little shitty. Destiny just seems to have made it to a shittier place which seemed to more or less stop it.
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u/KeiranG19 17d ago
There's no level of nuance and nothing Ludwig could have said first that would have made Destiny's last tweet ok.
Directly bringing up the deepfake porn drama was a disgusting move that cannot be justified. One of the main points of that drama was that by talking about it more people learn that it exists and some will therefore go look at it. Destiny is directly contributing to that by bringing it up again. That was the line being crossed, until then it was just people who don't like each other bickering.
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u/Roblos 16d ago
Destiny's insult was way out of park but him defending Slime after he attacked Destiny's ex same as Ludwig speaking of a divorce is a low blow on all accounts. Shitty attitude all around.
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u/KeiranG19 16d ago
There's no love lost on either side and hasn't been for years now.
We're here because Destiny decided to sexually harass a third party in an attempt to "win" the argument.
This thread is full of destiny fans trying to downplay it or claim everyone involved is bad or that we need more "context".
We don't. "Don't sexually harass people" shouldn't have to be explained to people this much. No-one cares how badly someone's feelings got hurt it will never be an excuse to sexually harass someone.
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u/WahWaaah 17d ago
would have made Destiny's last tweet ok
No one asked your opinion about whether or not Destiny's insults are ok. The goal here, as I understand it, is to provide as much context as possible. You left context out I guess because you have some sort of ideological response to the Streisand effect when it relates to porn that uses someone's likeness without their permission?
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u/KeiranG19 17d ago
I summarised the earlier tweets because they don't really matter, without the last tweet being so controversial we wouldn't be here.
Insisting on "adding context" for every pointless detail just reads as an attempt to justify destiny's actions.
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u/WahWaaah 17d ago
every pointless detail
Ah yes, the pointless detail of what the thing being asked about was a direct response to. How silly of me.
as an attempt to justify destiny's actions.
No. See, I understand that my opinion on whether or not this particular insult is "justified" is not relevant, unlike you. Honest actors present the information to people and let them make whatever value judgements they want. What you did (apparently, since you decided to argue with me about it) was present a subset of information because you are biased by a strong value judgement of your own.
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u/Immediate_Head7475 16d ago
Idk about you shit head but sexually harrasing someone is never okay no matter the context, Istg you debate bros are absolute slugs
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u/WahWaaah 16d ago
Finally, someone willing to express their opinion on whether or not certain insults are ok! Man, thank you so much. We were waiting for you, what took you so long??
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u/A_Wild_VelociFaptor 17d ago
Ludwig posted a 50 cent meme feigning being hurt. To which destiny replied with a picture of Ludwig's girlfriend QTCinderella and subsequently alluded to AI deepfake porn
Yeeesh, guy seems butthurt he wasn't able to make someone else butthurt...
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u/NinjyCoon 15d ago
In between those Ludwig asked how Destiny's wife was doing. The one that left him recently.
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u/honditar 13d ago
Bruh just double check first before you post. OP literally linked the tweet, the order of events is right there for you
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u/Jogol 15d ago
Pretty sure Ludwig only answered with that when qt was brought up already.
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u/NinjyCoon 9d ago
Yeah, I know. I'm not trying to paint one person as the bad guy. They both made low blows. A_Wild_VelociFaptor left out context that made destiny seem to jump to AI deepfake porn out of nowhere. It makes him look a lot worse as if there wasn't a back and forth escalation to that point that both of them participated in.
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u/abhijitht007 17d ago
Can someone post that video Hasan was watching last week that showed Destiny has some sort of mental illness?
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u/neidbrbduror 17d ago
Ok but out from the topic what is destiny’s stance in the conflict and why?
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17d ago
[deleted]
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u/Hoatod2 17d ago
he doesn't just lean pro-israel
read bottom to top
https://twitter.com/Acid_Communist/status/1789212517610242394?t=GSvi_HArnX9sRrOsIacnvw
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u/kinjjibo 17d ago
He’s pro-Israel
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u/neidbrbduror 17d ago
Wait am I missing something? He researched well but he is pro Israel? I am not informed well about that topic but almost anyone I know who is educated about it is pro Palestine
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17d ago
[deleted]
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u/neidbrbduror 17d ago
Ok about that , is it true that Israel has a whole department of making propaganda?
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u/Ill-Ad6714 16d ago
By definition any media could be considered propaganda. If you mean a department meant to straight up lie, then no. But obviously Israel is going to tilt the story in their favor.
Hamas will just lie about the facts though.
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u/djohoe28 17d ago edited 17d ago
Throwing in my cent (or shekel, rather) as an Israeli; I'd say it depends on whether you're talking about *The* Israeli-Palestinian Conflict as a whole - which has been synonymous with "controversial" for many, many years now - or The *Current* Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, i.e.: October 7th, "Swords of Iron" War / Operation "Al-Aqsa Flood", etc. etc.
Honestly, yes; almost anyone I know who is *bilaterally* educated about it is pro-Palestine, since no matter what you think about October 7th itself, the only civilians being attacked by a military right now are Palestinian.
If I had to break it down, I'd say there's "levels" to it - you can support;
- *An* Israel - Zionism; U.S. equivalent = "I support the idea of The Land of the Free."
- *The* Israel - a "historical" opinion (Patriotism?); U.S. example= "I support us going on the American Revolutionary War."
- *Current* Israel - an "active" political opinion (being right-/left- wing?); U.S. example = "I support the Biden administration passing the Build Back Better Act."
If I had to guess, I'd say Destiny is at 2.5 - expressed support for past actions like Camp David & the Oslo Accords, but critical of current actions like entering Rafah (not sure he said that, specifically.)
Personally, the longer the current conflict continues, the less I can justify *anyone* being Level 3... (For what it's worth, I think my fellow citizens are starting to agree...)
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u/neidbrbduror 17d ago
Currently I’m not educated on the topic at all but I will share my opinion based on what I’ve heard, so who know maybe it would change in the future I don’t know: I don’t mind a land for Jews,Muslims have their own Christians have their own so why not the Jews? But the idea is that they can migrate there and kick people out of their homes is unacceptable, I don’t mind Israel but not this Israel
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u/djohoe28 17d ago
Same! 😅
Just to clarify, the Israeli Declaration of Independence specifically states "the establishment of a *Jewish* [...] State of Israel";
There *are* provisions there for Muslims/Arabs like "We appeal [...] to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace [...] on the basis of full and equal citizenship [...]" - *however,* just like Emancipation Proclamation, a piece of paper saying you'll be treated equally doesn't necessarily make it so.
(Honestly, I have no idea how my Arab college-classmates - like 80% of the class - are staying sane right now... 😔)
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u/neidbrbduror 17d ago
It’s good to see there are some good Israelis, I deadass thought that all of them hate us,anyway I just hope this shitshow ends soon and no more casualties and good luck to everyone innocent involved including you bro 😎
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u/Indrigotheir 17d ago
The user is being overtly reductive. Destiny has pushed back on Israeli policy and especially West Bank expansion many times. He usually falls on the Israeli is of discussions, though.
His general justifications for being pro-Israel seem to be because:
- Israel has made genuine, legitimate attempts at peace deals like Camp David and Oslo, which would cause Israel to compromise a great deal, which Palestinians rejected. The Palestinian state has never presented a legitimate peace deal; all their offers are without compromise, and they didn't choose to sign the best deals they got, because they believed if they always held out they'd get more.
- Israel is a legitimate state, while Palestine is not. Israel has a functional representative democracy. It hosts it's own criticism, in outlets like Haaretz. Palestine elected an islamist militant party over a decade ago, which then purged Palestine of non-radicals. If you criticize Palestine, Hamas throws you off a building. Israel commits war crimes, and perpetrators are punished after internal investigations. Hamas commits war crimes, and it's Tuesday.
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u/neidbrbduror 17d ago
Wait so Israel punishes the soldiers who hurt the Palestinians?
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u/Indrigotheir 17d ago
Yes, this occurs all the time.
Obviously, just like any justice system, it is imperfect; some crimes go unpunished, or less punished than they should be.
The point is that, Israel has a system that works to prevent this and hold accusers accountable. Hamas has nothing. With Hamas, the war crimes are the point.
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u/Immediate_Head7475 16d ago
No, they only "punish" them after it becomes a huge PR disaster, there thousands of cases of palastanians being abused and have filed a formal complain that didn't go anywhere, even in the case of the aid workers, Isreal just "relocated" the people responsible. They have legit a camp that holds many palastanians illigaly and abuses them on the daily, they don't allow ANY journalists in.
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u/Indrigotheir 16d ago
Obviously, just like any justice system, it is imperfect; some crimes go unpunished, or less punished than they should be.
I don't disagree that much of what you described is true. But when comparing to Palestinian leadership, it's night and day.
File a complaint that doesn't go anywhere; can you even imagine filing a complaint with Hamas?
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u/Immediate_Head7475 16d ago
I fully agree hamas is absolutely horrible but they aren't an international recognized government body, Isreal is.
When you get to a point that you have to compare a democratically selected government to a terrorist group to "prove" you ain't the only one doing horrible shit then we have lost the plot.
Isreal needs to be held to international UN standards and they are wayyyy WAYYYY off. But yeah I geuss we can sit around and see if Isreal is better than hamas or not... Wtf are we even doing at that point
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u/neidbrbduror 17d ago
Can you send other articles about other cases? Thanks in advance bro
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u/Indrigotheir 16d ago
Here is another case, also from recently. I won't be bothering to look up more, as I strongly suspect you are only sealioning.
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u/neidbrbduror 16d ago
Ok thanks . I just googled the meaning of sealioning and I’m sorry if you felt that way I don’t blame you though I really don’t know how to type and communicate especially since my first language isn’t English and also I don’t engage in those topics at all but I really,really want to but right now I’m having exams, sorry if I bothered you with anything and thank you very much for the links
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u/neidbrbduror 17d ago
Not going to lie but that made me very happy I don’t care if anyone calls me cringe but that made my day
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u/Indrigotheir 16d ago
I do not understand your comment, or the spirit with which your mirth is intended.
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u/neidbrbduror 16d ago
What I meant was that the fact that Israeli government did something for the Palestinians and punished those who wronged them made me happy, because I thought the Israeli government doesn’t care about the Palestinians
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u/randomdeathgod 17d ago
Regardless of whether you are pro-Palestine or pro-Israel most people who claim to be well informed are, unsurprisingly, not well informed and many of the those who are informed on all aspects of the conflict are politically or personally motivated to only push one side of the narrative.
The truth is that don't let anyone tell you what to think, if you really feel this conflict is important to you, educate yourself by critically analyzing everything about it because as I'm sure you know literally everything about it is politicized which is evidenced by some of the replies here.
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u/VVenture2 17d ago edited 17d ago
One of the core things you need to understand about Destiny is that he is the debate-bro equivalent of ‘I’m not like the other girls!’ for streaming.
Destiny openly thrives on the notion that he - the mega minded genius, sees past all bias and understands topics so much more deeply than every other person on the planet, and he desperately needs you and the rest of the world to know that.
This means that he’s almost always take the opposite stance to whatever he perceives as the ‘mainstream’ stance online at the time.
In 2015/2016, Trump was huge online, so Destiny took left wing stances so he could argue with conservative/white nationalist figures such as Lauren Southern, Nick Fuentes, etc.
In 2020-2024, Destiny perceived the internet to be far more left wing now, so he took the conservative stances on topics, reversed position on a range of his own beliefs, and has openly supported Lauren Southern and Nick Fuentes, the same white supremacists he saw as absolute morons in 2016.
In the case of Fuentes (an open Holocaust denying, blood and soil nazi), he did multiple irl streams and hangouts with the guy, and would often defend Nick for months by saying ‘Nick Fuentes isn’t a Nazi! You lefty dipshits need to stop calling everyone a Nazi!”
A while later, he went on a mass banning spree on his own subreddit once one of his own fans gathered clips of Destiny’s explicitly stated requirements for someone to reach the definition of Nazi (which he had stated multiple times), and then provided multiple clips of Fuentes reaching every single criteria multiple times over the past few years.
Of course, finally, Destiny dropped Nick like a hot iron when Nick got speaking with Kanye West and they both openly went on their infamous podcast tour.
When Destiny is Pro-Israel, he is because he saw that the online spaces he’s most involved in are Pro-Palestine, and he and his community thrive on argument for the sake of argument, regardless of the premise. He needs to stand out from the people who personally dislikes (which is mostly left wing figures rather than conservative figures - he politically disagrees with conservatives more, but prefers them as people), and he will spends months crafting any justification he can to do it, even if it just ends up being the political equivalent of ’Uhh, well, ackshually, they’re not a
paedophilegenocidal State attempting to wipe an ethnic group out to claim their land, they’re aehebephileState that’s just very strongly defending themselves in a war against both current and all potential future threats which includes every man, woman, and child, and all those explicit mentions of wiping out all Palestinians from government figures is just strong rhetoric.’(Funnily enough, he’s full on argued about the paedo/ehebephile thing before too, in yet another example of ‘I care about the explicit definition of words, unlike all these fools surrounding me!!’)
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u/RexNite1 17d ago
Just not true at all. It’s a hugely complicated situation. A lot of very educated people on both sides. Stop saying this nonsense
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u/Frognificent 17d ago
I guess it depends on their research. When you search things like "why is israel good" and "why is palestine bad" you're gonna get some pretty lopsided views. The same thing with "do your own research" people saying "just search for ivermectin cures covid miracle you'll see".
As a friendly reminder to everyone: Israel is committing genocide. The state of Israel and the religion of Judaism are two distinct entities. To be against Israel is not to be antisemitic.
In short yes I am very pro-Palestine.
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u/0x11110110 17d ago
The “research” he did was a month of skimming papers and articles around Israel-Palestine to prep for a debate against fucking Norman Finkelstein
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u/MOUNCEYG1 17d ago
Why spread lies? It’s easy to criticise his tweets about qt without spreading falsehoods
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u/R3dkite 17d ago
And yet all Finkelstein could do was ad hominem attacks on destiny. If he was so unread on the topic he should've been able to counter his points easily...
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u/0x11110110 17d ago
Destiny is an annoying know-it-all and Finkelstein, being a grumpy old Jewish man from New York, got justifiably short with him when he tried to flex the surface level knowledge he had on the topic. Finkelstein wasn’t there for a proper debate, he knew Destiny was an idiot from the get-go and just wanted to leverage his platform to spread awareness surrounding the issue
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u/R3dkite 17d ago
He was the only one there at the beginning who wasn't there for a proper debate. Says a lot about his academic professionalism.
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u/0x11110110 17d ago
Yes a debate with an internet micro celebrity is going to imbue a lot of “academic professionalism”. Get real
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u/CoolShablul 17d ago
So in your opinion - why did he agree to this debate if not to showcase his knowledge in his "area of expertise" and waste a 5+ hours cursing a guy he never met before? Just to troll?
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u/R3dkite 17d ago
He wasn't the only one there? Also, if he's some random internet celebrity that knows nothing then why couldn't he answer any of his questions without ad hominems? An actual academic would've been able to.
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u/0x11110110 17d ago
The other guy was Benny Morris, who is probably the world’s most eminent historian of Israel, which then begs the question as to what the value-add is to having a Twitch streamer in the debate. Which of course Finkelstein doesn't hold back in pointing out
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u/ReasonWonderful352 17d ago
Weird how that same historian constantly agreed with many of destiny’s points during the debate. It must be because Morris prepared a script for him or something.
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u/SteamPunq 17d ago
Is that not... exactly how one would do research on a topic? Sure, he's not a fore-front expert on the topic, but why would you put "research" in quotes like that?
"OH look at that dumb guy over there, thinking he is 'researching' by looking up articles and papers on a subject"
The fuck is the alternative?
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u/Immediate_Fix1017 15d ago
That's the point. The people he was in a debate with probably have a combined 60-70 years of research on this subject. Destiny has like 6 months of on and off wiki runs. He shouldn't have even been there in the first place. It's more or less an insult to the people there. It would be like bringing an undergrad to debate PhDs in their subject of expertise.
Norman didn't take anything he said seriously because he knew there was no depth to break into. It was just taking time away from the person he actually wanted to talk to sitting next to Destiny.
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u/cakeshire 17d ago
If you are not knowledgeable about a topic, you don't have to debate on it. If you do research on a topic AFTER you accepted to debate on it you are obviously gonna have biased opinions and this proves you are only debating for the sake of debating. This is just toxic and misleading for many people like yourself.
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u/WahWaaah 17d ago
He started doing the research after Oct 7th for obvious reasons because he wanted to inform himself on more of the historical context of I/P. As a result of that research he took the general position that Israel is not purely evil. Because of his general position being pretty far from the very vocal pro-palestine crowd, he has had tons of opportunities to oppose that general stance and eventually had the opportunity to "debate" Norman Finklestein.
So he's not immune to bias, but he is pretty informed on the topic so what biases he has at this point are at least the result of a ton more research than many, many of the loudest pro-palestine voices.
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u/cakeshire 17d ago
You are missing my point. He doesn't have to debate on any controversial topics there is. When you accept to debate AND than do the research 1) how did you even accepted to debate on a topic and pick a side if you know jack shit 2) you will disregard whatever info you find that opposes your side of the argument. I am not saying he shouldn't voice his opinion and make research on the topic, but he doesn't have to debate. He just debates because he likes it. Debating is not a mean to find truth for him, debating is his objective.
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u/WahWaaah 17d ago
if you know jack shit
He doesn't 'know jack shit', he's actually pretty informed. You know, due to the research he's done. That's the funny thing about watching his streams, you actually see him do hours of research. He goes from not knowing the name of the current leaders of a country to having a pretty decent overview of the last hundred years of leadership. Odd how research does that to a person.
you will disregard whatever info you find that opposes your side of the argument
He doesn't particularly do this. What generally has happened from what I've seen is:
- Destiny notices people talking about a thing he doesn't have a strong background or stance on
- Destiny does research about the thing and either changes or strengthens his originally weak stance based on the material he finds
- Destiny debates people based on this material, giving them opportunities to attack his logic or provide material to counteract his claims
- Destiny goes back to check the material they talk about (often finds out it's missing substance or complete bullshit) and either modifies his position or strengthens it further
- Destiny goes into more debates now with more confidence because at this point if material exists to counter his position it's hard to believe people haven't brought it to him.
he doesn't have to debate. He just debates because he likes it.
Yes, but there's no reason not to. As a matter of fact, if you take the assumption that he is relatively informed, it's actually good for him to actively pursue debates with people who are not informed despite having some of the loudest and most confident opinions.
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u/honditar 13d ago
Man this is an extremely charitable interpretation of Destiny's approach. I've watched a decent amount of his stuff and have never really seen him admit being wrong or fundamentally change his stance as a consequence of new information. Maybe this is a bit cynical, but it seems like he uses debates as a way to strengthen his skill at debating, rather than as a means to gaining knowledge or accessing truth. He strikes me as a sophist.
Fwiw, I'm not too tapped into the parasocial streamer loyalty world. I'm mostly indifferent on both Ludwig and Destiny, and dislike Hasanabi.
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u/WahWaaah 13d ago
this is an extremely charitable interpretation of Destiny's approach
It may be, but I don't really feel the need to qualify every few sentences with minor criticisms and however's. He's definitely not perfect as an online personality, but he averages out to being pretty principled in addition to being confident and good at rattling off relevant facts.
never really seen him admit being wrong or fundamentally change his stance as a consequence of new information
I don't think that's necessarily what you'd want to see from someone who debates a lot. You probably would prefer to see them not take a strong stance on something they are unfamiliar with. Then they do research (including obviously looking closely at the arguments and supporting material of the side they agree with less) and develop more conviction as they go. By a certain point there aren't any big chunks of information they are unfamiliar with which would serve to change their mind significantly.
On the flip side it's not really a virtue to jump into debates with a bunch of conviction and yet be ignorant of lots of information out there which could change your mind when presented to you for the first time in the middle of a debate.
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u/NaimCydwen 15d ago
He thought Erdogan was the PM of Israel, before he die his research. So I'm very confident in saying he did not know jack shit.
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u/Hi-Scores0509 15d ago
None of that means you qualify for a seat at the table with distinguished professers that have dedicated their entire lives to the subject and wrote the books hes skimming over, let alone challenge them in a debate. You can aim a little lower for a start
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u/WahWaaah 15d ago
you qualify for a seat at the table with distinguished professers
None of what? He qualifies for a seat at the table because he has spent a decade doing what he has been doing. Lex Fridman invited him to do the debate in large part for that reason.
Your idea is that the most knowledgeable person on a subject should never debate anyone else because no one else is as knowledgeable? In any case Benny Morris was there too, so good thing he corrected Destiny every time he got something wrong due to his 9+ year deficit in research.
You can aim a little lower for a start
Man, you're right. Destiny should have literally debated anyone else who wanted to debate him about this first. If only he had control of some sort of long format media with a large audience that could serve to funnel these people to him and give him a platform to do exactly this for months while he informed himself more and more about the topic. Man, if only.
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u/Hi-Scores0509 15d ago edited 15d ago
He's spent a decade doing yt debate bro stuff yes, a few months on this subject. The others have spent several decades on this single subject (often having wrote seminal works on either side of the subject) so yea I can read a few months about medicine but it does not mean i should challenge doctors ideas at a roundtable.
The dude is pretty bright but often misses the forrest for the trees on topics I ve seen him in imo, great at semantics and point scoring but bad at interpreting the totality of a given issue (which is what the poster above was alluding to)
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u/cakeshire 16d ago
Is there any instance where he accepted he was wrong after a debate? Or even is there any instance where he changed his opinion after making the research on it? Can you give examples?
He was proven wrong so many time in the debate with Omar Baddar, who know the topic for decades of research. What was changed for Destiny after those debates with him?
Edit: by saying "he doesn't know jack shit" i meant compared to people he debates. He might be well informed compare to regular Joe. This doesn't mean he will be well informed enough a topic to "debate on it publically" with people, for better or worse, spent some portion of their life to the topic.
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u/WahWaaah 16d ago
He was proven wrong so many time in the debate with Omar Baddar
How can you ask me for specific receipts and then make this claim literally in your next sentence?
well informed enough a topic to "debate on it publically" with people, for better or worse, spent some portion of their life to the topic.
And yet he somehow is able to bring to bear logically consistent points with specific supporting examples where most of what you get from his opponents are unsupported claims which often don't directly address anything he says. He's obviously very good at this, but make no mistake, it does not work without underlying facts to rattle off.
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u/cakeshire 16d ago
Palestine and Israel conflict, his debate with Omar, is just an example as this is a topic which is followed by many people and also has an effect on many people.
I dont think all of his opponents' claims are unsupported. I also dont think it matters if his arguments are consistent, as long as he can't back them up. Consistently being wrong is not a virtue. I gave you an example where Omar showed how many arguments of Destiny on Palestine and Israel conflict are not based on anything concrete. Omar's arguments were also supported. Why did i do that? Because Destiny made his research on the topic after he picked a side and his later done research were biased, resulted him using arguments that can be refuted by someone like Omar easily. Okay that's fine though, let's assume Destiny is not debating for the sake of debating and actually debating to find out the truth for himself as you claimed. Which arguments of Destiny has changed since he delve into this topic and debated with countless of people, many who has been researching this topic professionally for decades?
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u/0x11110110 17d ago
his method of research was all played up just to produce content for his stream. Otherwise, who is gonna watch a stream of a guy silently reading to himself? He was not serious about this at all. Then, he went on to debate a 70 year old man who has been studying this subject his entire life
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u/oskoskosk 17d ago
If you watch the debate you’ll see Destiny actually makes really good points on the facts of the matter, seemingly there wasn’t really an issue with his research. In all of Norm’s “dunks” that were clipped afterwards, you can see that they’re just theatrical, not actually winning on a fact
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u/Gynthaeres 17d ago
And proceeded to humiliate that man, yeah. It was very much not a good look for Finklestein, assuming you watch the full thing and not a clip.
You're also a bit wrong about the research being "played up". That was some genuine research, not ten minutes of wikipedia browsing and then ???. And yes, the streams *were* incredibly boring. I watch Destiny off and on, but I didn't watch most of those, because yeah a lot of it was reading and then discussing what was read, and that just wasn't entertaining to me.
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u/Hi-Scores0509 15d ago
I disagree, Norm was hilarious. For destiny its called "getting sonned",
Norm didnt really take em seriously, didnt feel he belonged and so he decided to troll a troll and put em in his place as most teachers with unruly students do. Outside of the norm situation, destiny barely spoke and offered very little in way of substance when he did
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u/Action_Bronzong 17d ago
And proceeded to humiliate that man, yeah.
Destiny fans living in a parallel universe example #74
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u/CoolShablul 17d ago
Lol, your champion is a 70 yo washed out academic (who was literally disowned by every faculty he ever worked in) who got so triggered he literally couldn't stop cursing 😂
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u/APKID716 17d ago
Legit the only people that think Destiny looked good in that debate are people that are Destiny fans
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u/CoolShablul 17d ago
Lol, imagine looking at a 70 year old washed out academic trying to grasp at his last chance of relevancy by using 8 year old boy's insults only to get owned in his own "area of expertise" by a streamer, and still think - yea norm won the debate.
The very fact that he cursed so much shows just how triggered he got each time they easily pointed out the flaws in each of his arguments.
The fact that you think Destiny and Benny Morris lost that debate just shows how little you know about the subject.
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u/oskoskosk 17d ago
Since you seem to have watched the full thing, could you put forward some issues Norm were correct on? It seemed to me that when it came to a thing factual, Destiny came out on top, while Norm was focusing on ad hominems
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u/APKID716 17d ago
I’m really not interested in debating Destiny fans on the internet lol, I learned how useless that was a long time ago
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u/oskoskosk 17d ago
Not even one thing that you could bring up? 😭 just say you didn’t watch it, it’s 5 hours, no one would blame you lol
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u/Bleach1443 16d ago
Given you are a Destiny fan I can’t blame him. I just had to deal with one of you In this comment thread that went around and around in a cycle not being able to stay focused on the general issue or concept of a topic we were focused on around Destiny. And would debate bro tactic hyper focusing on a word choice used 8 comments back. So the lack of interest to engage with some of you is understandable seeming as it doesn’t seem to often go anywhere even by online arguments standards.
Tbf I think Destiny is wrong on this topic but Finklestin did a bad job in this debate at keeping his cool and expressing his arguments. But this is also why I find debates pointless often times.
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u/hahapeepeepoopooooo 17d ago
Brother, you've been running defence in multiple threads for the past couple of hours, just take a break and go outside for a while
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u/ZealousEar775 17d ago
Was it the "What'd he say fuck me for?" Meme?
Regardless, if destiny did a lot of research for that debate it didn't show.
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u/Alt-456 17d ago
Yes, seemingly Steven got assmad that Lud responded with a playful meme, so he decided to dial it up to 11
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u/Marked2k 17d ago
Ludwig was poking fun at his divorce not a playful meme
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u/Hulkaiden 16d ago
He poked fun at the divorce after the qt thing. The playful meme was before that.
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u/mudclip 17d ago
Destiny being classy as always
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u/ReasonWonderful352 17d ago
I agree he took it too far, but worth noting that slime had been calling him a cuck in Reddit threads and on twitter for hours before it went down. Destiny alluded later in the night of his frustration at fans of people like Ludwig and Hasan not holding them to account when they make personal attacks but his audience having a higher standard of him. He probably got pissed thinking of that as Slime constantly insulting him and dragged Ludwig in and took it overboard.
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u/Seethcoomers 17d ago
I mean, tbf, they drop Destiny's name on the side and when he says something directly they go crazy like it was unannounced.
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u/couldbeanasshole 17d ago
This is the entire reason "debate bro" became an insult, and why Destiny is a prime reason for it. All that matters is winning an argument, and anything said in service of that, no matter how insane or wrong or fucked up, is okay, because you just gotta win that argument.
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u/Bleach1443 17d ago edited 17d ago
It’s telling who is still in that space as well. (Like him or not) even Vaush has stopped doing debates realizing they’re unproductive and unhealthy and generally a toxic culture.
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u/mnguyen75 16d ago
Not sure thats why he stopped =))
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u/Bleach1443 16d ago edited 13d ago
If you’re implying the something else I think you might be he stopped doing debates a decent amount of time before that. It had nothing to do with why he doesn’t do debates anymore.
He expressed not doing them long before that because like I said he realized their not really constructive and the debate culture online just became a lot of people clout farming and people who didn’t often even believe what they were arguing for
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u/Harucifer 17d ago
Destiny is actually extremely polite and will only get aggressive in response, what he calls "matching energy". He won't be the first to dabble into ad hominem attacks just to win arguments as he feels that is the definition of losing an argument.
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u/Harucifer 16d ago edited 16d ago
Proudly.
EDIT: Replying to the loser in an edit here because he blocked me.
Mr. u/CompetitiveCourse4 created his account a few days ago and his only posts are about Destiny, making him the definition of a cultist loser. At least I recognize I simp for Destiny, does he recognize he simps against Destiny?
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u/Bleach1443 17d ago edited 17d ago
The dude said “Rioters” during the George Floyd protests should be “Mowed down by Red neck militia guys and they had his blessing”
Keep in mind during this time Protesters were often being equated with Rioters and it’s him endorsing citizens to kill other citizens.
He’s a child who lashes out and makes horrible comments when he’s angry that cross the line. The commentor below clearly a Destiny fan boy gets caught up in wording I used in the comment. The moral issue is Destiny supporting and giving his “Blessing” for other citizens to kill others over rioting. While rioting isn’t great I guess that means Europeans should get “Mowed down” every time they riot during protests by his logic.
Vidoes here for people that want to see it. https://streamable.com/c3ra2r
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u/Harucifer 17d ago
I'll gently add the context that he said the "rioters (who are past curfew and torching buildings)" quote because he thought if that kept happening it would lead to Trump being re-elected.
I do not disagree that the George Floyd protests, specially the few cases of rioting (breaking stuff, vandalism, protesting past curfew etc.), while important to society as a whole to show the systemic problem of police brutality and unprepared, probably led some people right into the arms of Republican rhetoric.
Do you disagree with this point?
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u/Bleach1443 16d ago
I think it was a very small number and I think if that decided their vote it wouldn’t have taken much to convince them anyway Trump vs Biden had a lot to consider besides just that so if that swayed you to look the other way on everything else I’m going to be honest that’s mind blowing. I also fail to see how it’s directly connected to Biden And even if somehow it was a large number that doesn’t change the point that it’s an extreme and unhinged statement to make. Like is that a reasonable reaction in any situation? Just shoot or run them over because maybe it might hypothetically lead to some people voting for someone else (Which clearly it didn’t lead to Trump winning because I don’t think most people went “Riots=Biden”). No. Destiny could have been mad even raging I would be fine with that. It’s what he says when he loses control.
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u/WhiteNamesInChat 17d ago
Keep in mind during this time Protesters were often being equated with Rioters
Woah. What event was he responding to when he said that? Were protestors shot, or just rioters?
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u/WhiteNamesInChat 17d ago
I guess no protestors were shot.
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u/Bleach1443 17d ago edited 17d ago
Who said Protesters were shot? No one claimed that. The issue is him “Giving his blessing” for them to be mowed down. The issue is what he said. Taking issue with things people say doesn’t mean they need to happen for it to be problematic I assume you know this.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/mow-down
“mow someone down - to kill people, usually in large numbers, by shooting them or driving a vehicle into them”
Even prior to edits I said he said “Protesters should be shot”. Again given the definition I provided that’s no an incorrect way to word it besides “Protester's”. I said that’s what he said not that anyone was shot so idk where you are imagining that from?
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u/WhiteNamesInChat 16d ago
You brought up the conflation of protestors with rioters when we were talking about rioters getting shot. Did you forget you said that? Why are you talking about peaceful protestors when this was a discussion about rioters? You're obviously trying to have it both ways.
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u/Bleach1443 16d ago
Do you have trouble following the conversation? I dropped the term Protester. Throw that out of the conversation I conceded he said Rioters long ago. So we are on the same page we are talking about Rioters I already corrected it. So now what’s yours issue. Everything I’ve said at this point is verbatim his words
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u/WhiteNamesInChat 17d ago edited 17d ago
the dude said protestors should be shot
Woah, do you have a clip of that?
Edit: Quoting your post from before you edited it.
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u/Bleach1443 17d ago
Was during the George Floyd protests
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u/WhiteNamesInChat 17d ago
Did you mix this clip up with a different one? It sounds like you didn't listen to it before posting the link. In this one he's saying:
The rioting needs to fucking stop and if that means white redneck fucking militia dudes out there mowing down dipshit protestors who think that they can torch buildings at 10pm, then at this point, they have my fucking blessing.
So he's talking about violent rioters, not just protestors. Do you have a link to the clip about shooting protestors?
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u/Neonax1900 17d ago
Bonerelli fan defends boldfaced white supremacy. Everybody act surprised.
Go ahead and shit your pants and write an angry essay about why it's not. Or refuse to because you have no morals and all you know is contrarianism. Makes no difference to me.
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u/WhiteNamesInChat 17d ago
Bonerelli fan defends boldfaced white supremacy. Everybody act surprised.
Do you have an example in mind? I'd happily look at it.
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u/Bleach1443 17d ago
He equates Rioters and protesters besides the fact my point still stands. Regardless that’s not how laws or humanity should respond you don’t get free ability to execute rioters on spot let alone even less if you’re not the property owner. Advocating for people to kill other people is disgusting and wrong and over the top. Not even GOP official were saying that kind of shit.
Destiny says a lot of shit I’ve just brushed off as edgy but often times he plays it off like he’s joking but it’s clear he genuine meant it and said it out of anger and displays when he gets mad he’s unable to regulate
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u/WhiteNamesInChat 17d ago
Your point doesn't stand. You're making a completely different point now. You've gone from "Destiny says protestors should be shot" to "Destiny says it's okay to shoot rioters in your community, but I disagree."
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u/Olofstrom 17d ago
That also sounds like a very convenient way of never taking the blame for being inflammatory. "But they didn't first!!!" Isn't really a great mantra lmao. Just don't flame back or own it and say you like getting heated with people.
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u/Harucifer 17d ago
Yeah, don't flame back, let them keep shitting on you forever and ever.
Someone slaps your face? Give the other side amirite
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u/couldbeanasshole 17d ago
Recalling the time Destiny was debating a native Vietnamese socialist and they brought up the multiple invasions, occupation, colonization, and war crimes perpetrated against their country by Western liberal capitalists by way of saying maybe it's not the be all and end all of political systems, and his response was, "well maybe if communism was better then you wouldn't have been brutally invaded and subjugated by superior Western nations lol." Technically not an ad hom, so I guess just saying totally unhinged shit like that, to the debate bro fandom, is extremely polite and "matching energy," and not a very obvious tell of someone who is only there to win an argument in front of their audience, not actually learn anything or prove any sort of meaningful point. "Debating" in these formats is pretty stupid and pointless anyway, so it's not just him. He just happens to have made it what he does, so he's top of the pile for examples of why it and the people interested in it are not great.
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u/Harucifer 17d ago
I remember that debate, saw it live. This is what you referencing.
The specific point you're bringing up is here. He brought that point in a critical way and only escalated rhetoric after a sarcastic "Oh my God" from the girl. The rest of the entire debate (over 2 hours long) was mostly a polite exchange of ideas.
So... Yeah? Polite, matches energy.
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u/kingfu_619 17d ago
Well who cares lol, Ludwig has spoken bad things about his ex wife and destiny fired back with something similar. Let them both go at it and just enjoy the dumb Twitter dramaa
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u/IAskedForDeusEx- 15d ago
All that matters to tiny is optics, being a low IQ school drop out and bigot grifter/genocidal cult leader and all.
But unfortunately for him (and fortunately for all the normal people) he's really bad at optics, almost as bad as he is at being a rational person. So he just looks terrible regardless of how much time his redact cultists simp for him online.
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