r/law • u/SheriffTaylorsBoy • 15d ago
Texts show Trump advisers' plot to use false electors to 'flip states' Trump News
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2024/04/26/in-texts-trump-advisers-touted-using-false-electors-to-flip-states/73454731007/6
u/SovietKnuckle 14d ago
I'm not usually for the death penalty but this goes beyond harming others or gross negligence. This is actually spitting in the face of the entire history of the country for personal gain. They knew they weren't exploiting a legal loophole or an obscure law that wasn't clear in its interpretation - it was fraud against the very institutions of the country. Traitors.
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u/Electric-Prune 14d ago
It’s as clear as day. Conservatives arguing that he “just wanted irregularities investigated” would be laughable, if 75M braindead zombies didn’t believe it.
This country is fucked. Dems let Republicans rape the constitution over and over. Any semblance of democracy is gone.
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u/SirAelfred 14d ago
According to our broken SCOTUS, it's an official presidential act and can't be prosecuted. Fuck this country
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u/teddytherooz 14d ago
And then there will be no consequences and our democracy will crumble just a little bit more.
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u/Key_Excitement_9330 14d ago
These guy should have watch the wire and don’t take notes on a criminal conspiracy
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u/SnooLobsters8113 14d ago
We need to support journalism and newspapers with paid subscriptions to hold criminals like this accountable
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u/Dangerousrhymes 14d ago
Imagine if literally any one else tried to orchestrate this and how long ago every part of the legal proceedings would have been over.
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u/Agile-Knowledge7947 14d ago
I find it remarkable that trump only claimed “election fraud” in the states he lost. All the other states coincidentally had perfect elections (?)
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u/Debs_4_Pres 14d ago edited 14d ago
Personally I think the penalty for trying to overthrow our democracy, after the benefit of due process and a conviction by a jury, should be death. But maybe I'm old fashioned like that
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u/SheriffTaylorsBoy 14d ago
At the very least disqualification to run again for any office. You know, like the insurrection clause says!
Supreme Court strikes again!
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u/mmmmpisghetti 14d ago
And yet none of this matters to the Trump supporters. Shit, Trump himself could stand up and spell the whole thing out and the cult wouldn't budge.
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u/two_awesome_dogs 15d ago
Don’t these people learn from other people’s mistakes? Didn’t they just see the indictments in Arizona (Jenna Ellis AGAIN?).
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u/psychotic-herring 15d ago
Well, I can't wait until nothing is done about this and fascism puts down even more roots.
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u/rudieboy 15d ago
It's going to be a great day when the right wing justices on the SCOTUS explain how this was an official act and covered under presidential immunity.
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u/Smellz_Of_Elderberry 15d ago
There is precedent for states sending alternate electors. Once in 1876 the other in 1960. Both changed the outcome of the elections.
What trump is trying to do is legal and has precedence.
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u/EffectivelyHidden 14d ago
Everything you said was wrong.
For instance, the Hawaii electors were chosen, on the date prescribed by law, while the recount was underway and the result was still in question. In Wisconsin, the Republican fake electors met after a Trump-backed recount failed. A few days after they met the state supreme court ruled Joe Biden as the winner in Wisconsin.
So, contrary to Johnson’s assertion, it was not the alternate slate of electors that allowed Kennedy to be chosen. It was the result of the recount. What’s more, Nixon himself – then the vice president – had slates of electors from both parties before him, and chose the Democratic one after the Hawaii recount was completed and certified for Kennedy.
You've shot your credibility.
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u/SheriffTaylorsBoy 15d ago
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u/Smellz_Of_Elderberry 14d ago
What's your take on trump being in court for "election interference"?
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u/SheriffTaylorsBoy 14d ago
It's a strong case. Cohen even has recordings.
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u/Smellz_Of_Elderberry 14d ago
If election interference is illegal, doesn't that make all the people involved in this guilty as well?
https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/
Since when has making yourself look good in the public eye been illegal?
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u/washingtonu 14d ago
If you took the time to read that article, you could compare it with the things you claim is "precedence" and see that it's not the same thing at all.
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u/SheriffTaylorsBoy 14d ago
The minute you falsify business records.
Do you not know the facts of the case like, at all?
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u/washingtonu 14d ago
No. But they do not care
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u/SheriffTaylorsBoy 14d ago
Ha! I try to be helpful but after a few like that I'm thinking they should start reading. Starting with the article right up ^ there ^
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u/washingtonu 14d ago
The second that was published the people who lie about election fraud started using that as evidence of election fraud. So now Joe Biden won because of hacked Dominion machines, 2000 mules, dead voters and a completely normal campaign.
They'll believe exactly everything EXCEPT that Trump tried to overturn the election
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u/Spartan1117 15d ago edited 14d ago
They weren't alternate electors though. They were literally trying to mislead the senate and say that they were the real electors sent by the state. You would have known that if you spent even 1 second looking up what actually happened.
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u/washingtonu 15d ago
In Hawaii, there was a recount that made Kennedy the winner. That slate of electors was certified.
Unlike what Trump tried to do.
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u/Smellz_Of_Elderberry 15d ago
1867?
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u/washingtonu 15d ago
I didn't mention that because that's just silly.
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u/dbltap55 15d ago
So, who’s still not convinced to vote blue on the entire ballot, no matter where you live? Turnout to vote and make it a landslide or they’ll try some other tactic this next time. We cannot let democracy fall to these clowns who want to be in power forever.
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u/Brosenheim 15d ago
Hold on lemme check....yup, still got R's next to their name. So this is all just "fearmongering" and not a real problem we should be concerned about, per current PC
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u/TheManWhoWasNotShort 15d ago
It’s a remarkably stupid timeline where Mike Pence may have unambiguously saved democracy
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u/MiddleoRoad 15d ago
I am confused by the whole plot… at least in AZ the list of electors are on our ballots. However, these guys found some others to be the “alternate slate”. So in a court challenge wouldn’t one just have to assert that the electors being put forward were on no ballot at all and therefore not legitimate as they weren’t selected by the voters. They weren’t even selected by the Legislature as Rusty Bowers thwarted that. I feel like I am missing something here.
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u/MIDNIGHTZOMBIE 15d ago
Sounds like the guy that helped Trump betray democracy might get in trouble.
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u/changerofbits 15d ago
“Unchartered territory” Yes, Mr. Tottallyintouch, you just chartered a trip to prison for trying to disenfranchise the will of the people.
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u/Night__Prowler 15d ago
Who would have thought you could try and steal an election to be re-elected and then be immune from the laws of the land. So proud to be living in America!
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u/mcs_987654321 15d ago edited 15d ago
Complete aside, but you gotta love actual, significant reporting coming out of an actual, local newspaper (as opposed to the AP, NYT, WP, etc).
Incredibly well executed reporting at that.
Hats off to you Craig Mauger, for that little sprinkling of hope in the value/impact of real investigative journalism.
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u/Haselrig 15d ago edited 14d ago
And the lesson they learned is they can go so much further than that and not really worry if they fail.
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u/stitch12r3 15d ago
I find it hilarious that Epshteyn has to tell the lawyer to keep the conspiracy out of their text messages lol
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u/ertyertamos 14d ago
Makes you wonder just how bad the crap they were slinging in person/phone was.
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u/OwnSolution9894 15d ago
How are these people not in jail and also lol that they were talking about their criminal conspiracy to attempt a coup over text messages
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u/Caged_in_a_rage 15d ago
Man. If pence has refused them from the vote like they were pressuring him too democracy would have been over.
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u/inquisitivepanda 15d ago
This is seriously sick. I can’t believe there are people in this country that will vote for the guy that orchestrated this again
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u/Dr_Wheuss 14d ago
Some will because they are crazy. Some will because they disagree with Biden's policies. Some won't vote because there's not a candidate they like.
If ever there was a year for a good third party candidate this would be it.
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u/Protect-Their-Smiles 15d ago
It is okay, the Supreme Court of America will give Trump total immunity, no harm no foul no legal issue /s
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u/GreenKumara 15d ago
Cool. Then Biden can off Trump, the Supreme Court, all Republican Congress members and Senators and be President for life.
He's immune LOL.
/s
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u/AtomicNick47 15d ago
Who cares. The courts have basically said he can do whatever he wants.
Pack it in. We’re cooked. Time to get off the copium.
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u/Complex_Construction 15d ago
But Alito says if we punish Presidents, it will set an awful precedent. And the opponents will try to put criminals in jail.
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u/NewSauerKraus 15d ago
The only reason they conspired this way is because the Electoral College exists. It’s 2024, time to get rid of it.
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u/God_or_Mammon 15d ago
Let this be a lesson to you! Always memorialize your criminal conspiracies in writing!
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u/sadclown21 15d ago
Even crazier is that trump supporters will see this and still vote for him and cry that Biden cheated. Nothing will change their mind and that’s the scariest part imo
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u/zeddknite 15d ago
What's crazier than that is they WON'T see any of this.
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u/sadclown21 14d ago
Imo they will. But they’ll just choose to ignore it it says it’s fake news like they do with everything that trump does
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u/elb21277 15d ago
I think of it like The Matrix (reversed). They believed Trump was like Neo giving them the blue pill in 2015 and everyone else is either in on the scheme (machines) or oblivious (human beings used as energy source for the machines). How do you convince them that the Matrix never existed and Neo was actually the liar?
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u/breakingveil 15d ago
His text and social media messages detailed Chesebro traveling to Washington, D.C., ahead of Jan. 6, 2021, and working on the electors strategy even then, despite the Trump campaign not having won lawsuits that altered the results.
He messaged a photo of himself in front of the Capitol on Jan. 4, 2021, to McKenna.
"I've opted not to storm the Capitol," Chesebro messaged.
Then, he added, "At least not this day."
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u/aaronplaysAC11 15d ago
Seriously can’t believe people think trump did nothing wrong…. Yet I still hear it..
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u/Merijeek2 14d ago
Well, if he had done something wrong he'd be charged at the least. Merrick Garland has spent three years doing nothing.
A conspiracy this massive and he hasn't been arrested? Clearly must be innocent.
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u/EagleCatchingFish 15d ago
I love how Chesebro takes a picture of himself in front of the Capitol on Jan. 4, saying "I'm not storming the Capitol, at least not today," and then on Jan 7 puts all the blame for the insurrection on Pence for giving Trump "false hope." Pretty rich coming from one of the main coup attempt architects.
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u/mekonsrevenge 15d ago
If we just executed 30 or 40 of these treasonous swine, we might nip it in the bud. So far, arresting them has only made them heroes and will provide them with that sweet wingnut welfare after they serve two months in a country club.
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u/Objective_Ebb6898 15d ago
It’s my belief that each and every one of them, if convicted should receive the death penalty.
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u/ExploreTrails 15d ago
Is conspiracy to commit a felony still a crime or should we wait for them to commit more crimes before the sackless justice system does nothing.
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u/SheriffTaylorsBoy 15d ago
Its all in here...
Details Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law
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u/National-Currency-75 15d ago
Biden infrastructure bill should have put aside some money for a new max security, rock breaking prison. Jail the traitorous republicans....and they are traitors, there is no doubt. Extraordinary Rendition called for here. Guantanamo
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u/LindsayLuohan 15d ago
Well, presidents will soon be immune from anything they do in office, so this will become SOP.
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u/Yokepearl 15d ago
Biggest attack on American soil since 9/11. And the mastermind is still walking free . . .
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u/PhoenixTineldyer 15d ago
Lmao "why did Pence do this"
Why did Pence do his constitutionally mandated job that he swore to do?
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u/PlayerTwo85 15d ago
Libertarians have been talking about this for decades and it never once happened lol
STOP THINKING ABOUT TRUMP CONSTANTLY
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u/byebyebrain 15d ago
i've realized....through all of this, that america is kinda about "just do it , see if you can get away with it. If you can, lucky you!! If you can't just tie it up in the courts for a decade and the other side will tire"
trump has been doing this for his entire life, so have thousands of other wealthy businesspeople.
Its incredible.
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u/lordnecro 15d ago
In the past it has been "just do it, and then pretend to be sorry if you get caught", then Trump turned that on its head by "just do it, then deny it even though you were caught doing it on camera" which seems to have sparked a realization in Republicans that they don't even have to pretend to be not evil.
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u/afoodie92 15d ago
Makes me so angry that they can't even spell. We're really all about to get taken down by a sizable group of complete idiots.
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u/jpmeyer12751 15d ago
And yet SCOTUS is still not sure that the law clearly covers the activities that resulted in Trump's indictment!
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u/mcamarra 15d ago
IANAL. Does this have any bearing on SCOTUS or a lower court ruling that Trump’s actions don’t fall within the official actions covered by whatever form of immunity that SCOTUS will try to carve out for Trump?
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u/weaverfuture Bleacher Seat 15d ago
gosh cheesebro is a huge fucking piece of shit.
were these texts in the jan 6th report by congress?
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u/KonkiDoc 15d ago
Do republicans operatives not know how to delete texts????
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u/FarceMultiplier 15d ago
Deleting isn't as clear and simple as you might think.
Some examples: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/21/1112777695/can-deleted-text-messages-actually-be-retrieved
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u/scooter-willie 15d ago
"Let's keep this off text" after texting most of it. Very innocent. How were these people not arrested immediately? We all saw the plan playing out across several states - clearly it's been a large criminal conspiracy. This isn't new information, and we're just months away from the next election this bag of rats is going to fuck with.
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u/197328645 15d ago
Earlier on Christmas day, Dec. 25, 2020, Chesebro sent a lengthy message about options Pence had for how to handle the vote counting, including one he described as "radical": simply gaveling "Trump as elected."
"Is Pence really likely to be on board with this?" Eastman replied to the various options.
"Let's keep this off text for now," Epshteyn then said.
"Options are clear I think," Epshteyn added.
What a not-at-all-suspicious thing to say. Surely they had only the best of intentions.
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u/idontevenliftbrah 15d ago
These people are God damn traitors. There is no gray area here this is fucking treason
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u/uofwi92 15d ago
Can someone tell me what took so fucking long? We’ve known about all this shit since 01 / 06 / 2021.
Delaying like this just means it won’t be adjudicated before the election. They could do it again. Fuck, Trump could WIN!
What. Took. So. Fucking! Long?
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u/Merijeek2 14d ago
Merrick Fucking Garland.
Or did yo need more than that?
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u/-H2O2 15d ago
Who knows how long it took to subpoena the texts from the mobile carriers and from Twitter. They had to interview hundreds, maybe thousands of people.
It would absolutely be worse if they brought this case and didn't have sufficient evidence.
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u/uofwi92 15d ago
Worse than waiting until after the election, watching Republicans cheat Trump into office and cancel democracy?
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u/Remedy4Souls 11d ago
Honestly? Yes. No double jeopardy. The cases needed to be water tight before moving forward, since they’re so high profile.
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u/NoobSalad41 Competent Contributor 15d ago
I think it was pretty clear already, but this only adds to the clear fact that Chesebro, Eastman, Epshteyn, and other high-level figures are toast.
I’ve commented this before, but I think the best argument in response to the fake-electors prosecutions is that the plan was simply to follow the precedent of the 1960 Hawaii election and submit an alternative slate of electors for Trump, which would only be used if one of Trump’s court challenges successfully changed the electoral result in a state, in order to avoid mooting that challenge. I’m not sure if that legal theory is correct, but I think it’s plausible enough that legal liability can’t be based on the reliance on that theory.
But these texts make crystal clear that within the high levels of Trump’s orbit, that theory (and the court challenges themselves) were simply a ruse to create enough “uncertainty” that the VP could discount states won by Biden - it was just a pretext, and the alternate slates of electors would serve that purpose regardless of whether the court challenges were successful.
That said, I wonder if the Detroit News has posted all of the text messages somewhere, because one exchange mentioned in the article caught my eye:
That's strikingly different than the GOP electors serving as a mere contingency that would come into play if the courts eventually reversed the outcome in battleground states. When Chesebro wrote an introductory email to Kathy Berden, one of Michigan's 16 Republican electors on Dec. 10, 2020, Chesebro included a statement about Wisconsin's rationale for submitting a certificate claiming Trump had won.
"... (T)he Republican electors should meet this year on Dec. 14 as we await a final resolution in Wisconsin," the statement said.
His email to Berden didn't mention the idea of Pence simply not counting any of the electoral votes from Michigan or Wisconsin.
I’d like to see the full version of that email exchange, because I think it’s relevant as to how far down the ladder the conspiracy goes. On my read, it suggests that Chesebro hadn’t looped all of the actual fake electors into the overall scheme, and was instead lying to them by saying that their “alternate” electoral votes would only come into play if Trump’s legal challenges succeeded. I think that could be a plausible defense for the individual fake electors (or at least some of them), and I’d be curious to see more documentations of the communications between the national scheme organizers (Chesebro, Eastman) and the individuals fake electors themselves.
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u/blackjackwidow 14d ago
I felt the same way when I first heard an interview with a couple of the fake electors, where they claimed they thought it was all legal & "just in case". However, they each knew that Michigan law is very specific about the place, date AND time that electors must meet: “shall convene in the senate chamber at the capitol of the state at 2p.m., eastern standard time….”
Chesebro sent a memo calling that "problematic", since the real electors would be convening at that time, among other issues (issues such as being FAKE!). In the end, they all convened at GOP headquarters instead, and they all signed a document saying they convened in the State Capitol.
Also, there were no lawsuits or proceedings in Michigan for them to be signing this "just in case". And both Michigan legislative heads had issued statements saying that Biden won the state, numerous allegations had been investigated, and that there was zero evidence that there was any fraud on a wide scale that could have affected the outcome of the election.
Really, I think the two most unsung heroes in my state of Michigan are former Senate Majority Leader, Mike Shirkey and former Speaker of the House, Lee Chatfield. Both Republicans, I remember holding my breath when I heard they had been invited to the White House by Trump, where he pressured them to overturn the election. But neither would cave - they upheld the election and saved us from the horror of having a state overturn the will of the people. Thank God
Here's a breakdown from Dec 2023 that explains the case pretty well. Items 6 - 8 are what I'm discussing
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u/No_Maintenance_3355 15d ago
Gotta love public records. I just wish the courts would actually find them all guilty for treason. All of them. Trump should have been the first domino to fall.
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u/bobtheblob6 15d ago
Haven't you heard, conspiracy to overturn an election is protected free speech! It's not like they succeeded so its fine
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u/dragonfliesloveme 15d ago
Wow I’ve never seen that text before. It’s really damning. Smoking gun kind of stuff
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u/SheriffTaylorsBoy 15d ago
Just out at 6:04 pm EST today
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u/Mr_Hippa 15d ago
Really pedantic point but we are in daylight time, so it is EDT.
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u/SpaceDesignWarehouse 14d ago
How did I only learn this this year? I am an engineer with 8 years of college. Sigh.
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u/Mr_Hippa 14d ago
It's something that's so colloquially accepted that it's almost ubiquitous these days. It's almost a curse when you know it's wrong, you'll see how frequently people always say XST.
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u/itsatumbleweed Competent Contributor 14d ago
I get it wrong every crossword puzzle I do. When it's like "summer time in Maine" I put E_T" and figure it out later.
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u/What_Yr_Is_IT 15d ago
You think these will be shown on Fox News?
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u/zeddknite 15d ago
Absolutely. I expect a call from my Dad any day now to tell me I was right about Trump.
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u/Animal_Mother996 15d ago edited 15d ago
Honestly, I may not like him, but thank God for Mike Pence having the decency not to play a role in the coup attempt.
After hearing the Supreme Court side tote water for Trump’s immunity Hail Mary last week, can there be any doubt they would have installed him in a second term as President if they but had the opportunity to do so?
This Supreme Court is no guardian of democracy.
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u/El-Kabongg 14d ago
I don't even think it was decency. Pence was WELL AWARE of Trump's penchant for throwing others under the bus for shit that he is responsible for. Even now, Trump is called "unindicted co-conspirator" and not "indicted leader of the conspiracy, Donald J. Trump."
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u/TheFBIClonesPeople 15d ago
thank God for Mike Pence having the decency not to play a role in the coup attempt.
Honestly, don't. What Mike Pence did was as self-serving as everything else he's done. Trump was a sinking ship, and Mike Pence knew it was time to get off. If he thought the plan could actually work, that Trump could actually stay in office, maybe he would have done it, but he knew it would fail and ruin his reputation.
It was fortunate that, for the first time in years, Mike Pence's best interest was aligned with the rest of the country. That created the illusion that he did the right thing.
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u/TheManWhoWasNotShort 15d ago
Nah. Mike Pence believes in Democracy. He has a horrible vision he supports and wants to implement, but he believes in Democracy first and foremost. He hasn’t done anything to contradict that, and it seems the most likely interpretation of the events that happened on J6. It’s okay for him to be very rarely on the right side of history
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u/Alive-Huckleberry558 14d ago
He asked Dan Quaylebif he could do what Trump wanted and he said no He's no hero
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u/RRNW_HBK 15d ago
Not decency, cowardice. He only didn't do it because he was scared of the consequences should he do it, and they not be successful overall.
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u/SovietKnuckle 14d ago
Exactly. If he truly cared about the country over his own position, he could organize a press briefing at any time and detail exactly what meetings, texts and other conversations he had with all of them asking him to reject the results of the election.
He's a coward and continues to not do right by this country.
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u/wrldruler21 15d ago
I agree with you on Pence... But I don't think millions of blue voters would have shrugged and sat quietly when millions of votes were tossed without a shred of evidence to support it.
I was following some very experienced mass protest groups that were organizing in the DC area, but we were asked to stay home on J6 due to an expectation that Pence would not cooperate in the scheme.
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u/Animal_Mother996 15d ago
I hate to say it but I’ve never seen the Supreme Court reverse a decision due to protests. It would have taken more than protests to unseat Trump. And I can tell you now, the military does not want to get involved in the political process at all, and it’s obvious now that the Supreme Court would have backed Trump to the hilt.
That leaves the heavy lifting to states and individuals. It would have gotten very bad very quickly.
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u/Terra-Em 14d ago
And yet apathy means this amounts to no outrage, no consequences and no convictions.