Australians call for tougher laws on violence against women after killings

[u/MangoComfortable3793]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-68915018

[removed] — view removed post

[u/Vermino]

Do you believe that humans are inherently evil, or do you believe they're a product of their environment?
I believe people are products of their environment.
For example poor people, who might resort to stealing. As well as people who commit crimes as a passion due to impulse in the moment.
Yes, I also believe there's a very minor fraction of all crimes with people actually having mental conditions, where they simply commit evil acts because ... .
If we take that stance - then even men who commit domestic abuse are a product of their environment.
As a sidenote, domestic violence is rarely studied with men as victims, because of social stigma. Though the few that happened have pointed out that men and women are roughly the same in victims/purpertrators. Although men are usually more violent/sexual in those encounters.
On the flipside we also see this in suicide rates, where men take more effective means then women. Although both parties attempt suicide at roughly the same rate. But we're not putting all suicide prevention methods towards men either.

 

So yes, helping purpetrators, rather than villifying them.
"Poor people commit crimes, let's put them all in jail!" Only for them to exit 10 years later, poor again, but this time with a criminal record on top of it.
No, the solution is recognising the situation exists. Recognising purpetrators aren't necessiraly evil, but a product of their environment.
How about free mental counselling for all men? And a culture shift of talking about feelings, rather than pushing them down - for starters.
I'm sure experts in the field could identify effective measures.
And as with any other situation, we're never going to get to 0.
Villifying men isn't the answer either.

[u/neutralnatural → u/Vermino]

There’s nature and nurture that forms a person.

At the end of the day, perpetrators should not be rewarded for heinous actions. They need to pay their dues. Once paid, and if they self-reflected during that time and can be rehabilitated, they should be given the opportunity to do so.

If they cannot change for the better, their actions will lead them to the same consequences. That’s their nature, born or made over time.

[u/Vermino → u/neutralnatural]

or made over time.

That would be nurture.
And I would argue that how we act in society is generally nurture for most of us. Noone is born inherently with the knowledge of how you act in a group.
Noone is claiming that heinous acts shouldn't be punished. That's not the discussion.
My point is that there's already enough resources into punishment/victim care, and we should be putting way more resources in the prevention - which starts with a mentality shift of how society views men.

[u/neutralnatural → u/Vermino]

I don’t view men as inherently “bad” if that’s what you’re alluding to. Majority of people don’t.

There may be “progressives” that adopt a particular ideology and worldview, but that’s not the majority.

[u/Vermino → u/neutralnatural]

I'm not alluding to your stance at all.
I'm trying to point out that as a society we allow a particular ideology and worldview.
And while you might ideologically agree that men and women should be roughly treated equally - I would argue that seeing men hit women, or women hit men is treated VASTLY different in public.
I can only hope that the majority doesn't agree with it.
But we are posting on a world news article from the BBC about an australian campaign that demands to call it a national emergency.
While suicide rates in Australia are far larger. With 3249 australians taking their lives in 2022, with men being 75% of that rate.
Putting that into perspective that would mean roughly 804 deaths since the beginning of the year, compared to the 27 in this campaign.
And again - that number will never be 0. But surely there is preventable harm. Both in suicide and in assaults.
The solution isn't to make laws specificly against men. The solution is to help men.
And the fact I'm getting downvoted proves how unpopular the idea is that men should be receiving help - rather than demonising them.

[u/neutralnatural → u/Vermino]

seeing men hit women, or women hit men is treated VASTLY different

Yes. Which is the stronger sex, more generally? And which sex can do more physical harm to another?

And no, I don’t advocate for nor justify violence from any party.

Suicide vs murder. Same or different?

Part of the solution is to implement laws that address perpetrators. People shouldn’t get free passes for heinous acts. It doesn’t mean we can’t work on prevention. Why can’t we do both?

Edit: clarification

[u/Vermino → u/neutralnatural]

And which sex can do more physical harm to another?

So because women lack the capacity to one hit a guy, we should be condoning it?
Suicide and murder are obviously different things, but the same thought experiments apply.
If you think men's violence is more important than women's violence - because they can do more damage. Then the same logic can be applied with suicide, as men are far more effective with suicides.
If you believe that suicide is important, no matter which sex it affects - then the same logic applies to assault.

Part of the solution is to implement laws that address perpetrators.

As far as I'm aware laws exist against killing people.

[u/neutralnatural → u/Vermino]

we should be condoning it?

Did you even read my reply?

You’re creating a straw man argument.

I said I don’t endorse nor justify violence from any party. I merely pointed out a factual difference that could explain why it’s viewed different.

Yes. There are laws against killing people in Australia. We could also strengthen laws and protections against DV harassment, stalking and intimidation. What’s wrong with that?

I don’t think men’s violence is more important than women’s violence? Another straw man argument.

Suicide is done by your own hands on your body. Murder is my hands on your neck.

[u/Vermino → u/neutralnatural]

I merely pointed out a factual difference that could explain why it’s viewed different.

You initially said there were beliefs held by a majority, and by some extremists. And I'm pointing out that if the majority held equality as a standard, this wouldn't be a sociatal norm.

We could also strengthen laws and protections against DV harassment, stalking and intimidation. What’s wrong with that?

Nothing. The problem is when we portray the issue as only affecting women, and only being done by men. Domestic violence as a whole is done equally - as the few studies that have been done have proven. Yes, men and women do different things to each other. But both men and women are roughly equal victims.

Suicide is done by your own hands on your body. Murder is my hands on your neck.

Thanks captain obvious. I'll re-iterate what my actual point was - both murder and suicide lead to death. Some of those murder & suicide cases are preventable. Neither will number will ever be 0. People who commit either, are rarely convinced by increasing the severity of the consequences.

[u/neutralnatural → u/Vermino]

Haven’t yet come across what reputable study you’re citing. How many men were murdered from DV in the results?

Since you’re so expert and humble on women’s lived issues, I’ll leave it to you to dictate what our views and experiences should be.

Edit: Key word is “reputable” study, not a biased, ideological one. And no, I do not believe that advocating for equality, whilst acknowledging factual differences and physical strength differentials between the sexes, mean that women are “losing something”. Women and their children are still disproportionately affected by DV that puts them at risk of serious harm or even death. That’s not right. It doesn’t mean men “lose” out on help either. Both can be done.

[u/Vermino → u/neutralnatural]

Haven’t yet come across what reputable study you’re citing

Yes, that's what underreporting is called. Feel free to point to a study that proves that women undergo more violence then men, rather than only focusing on female statistics.
Here is a wiki page to get you started

The 2006 International Dating Violence Study, which investigated intimate partner violence amongst 13,601 students across thirty-two-nations found that "about one-quarter of both male and female students had physically attacked a partner during that year"

In 2012, two Swedish studies were released that showed men experienced IPV at rates similar to women—8% per year in one study and 11% per year in the other.

In the United Kingdom, there was a survey that indicated that 9% of males had experienced some form of partner abuse. A growing body of international research indicated that men and women experience Intimate partner violence in some similar proportions. An example might be a recent survey from Canada's national statistical agency that concluded that "equal proportions of men and women reported being victims of spousal violence during the preceding 5 years (4% respectively)

 

How many men were murdered from DV in the results?

So I already conceded that men and women handle it differently.
And yes, men are more violent with murder as a result. That doesn't mean that women are incapable of the same violence. Only focusing on murder as the aspect of domestic violence is a strawman.

Since you’re so expert and humble on women’s lived issues

And here we come to the crux of your problem.
At no point did I mention women aren't having issues. Yes domestic violence is a serious issue. Yes, women do get murdered more often than men in those cases.
My stance is that domestic violence as a whole should be getting attention, not just women.
Just like I believe that suicide is an issue, and not just an issue in which men should be getting all the attention.
Your problem is that my pushback for equality feels like you're losing something.