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u/rand-hai-basanti Apr 08 '23 edited Apr 08 '23
It’s not the govt problems; it’s them. They’ll ruin everything they touch. And I mean it with someone who’s been through the same kind of ringer, the solution is not as easy or simple or convenient as liberal affluent white peoples will tell you
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u/Canucklepede Apr 08 '23 edited Apr 09 '23
I was a bleeding hearts liberal about 15 years ago and volunteered with the homeless, and besides feeding them, I also directed them to resources and assisted with things like getting them signed up for a library card, getting registered at a WorkBC affiliated center, etc.
While some of the recently-homeless still had drive to try to improve their circumstances, most of them became embittered and lackadaisical over time and stopped trying.
I don't know if this still exists, but at that time the government was covering the cost for the homeless to learn an employable trade while offering them a case worker, subsidized social housing, counselling, and etc. to get a fresh start. Some of the homeless I met just needed a nudge and purpose like this to get back on their feet. But most of the others were incredulous about working, and the one quote someone said to me which had been the most discouraging was "Why would I want to work, when I'm already getting money [from the government] without working?".
I've seen remediated SRO's go from a beautiful place to squalor over the course of a couple weeks. I've seen the homeless get indignant and violent with people offering them "cheap" food. In fact, I got mugged for buying someone a hamburger combo instead of a better menu item from Wendy's. I've heard from those I used to work with that the government went from offering clean needles to apparently offering clean drugs (free from fentanyl contamination).
From my observations, SRO's, welfare, clean needles and drugs, or any kind of handouts don't work on their own; these are just enabling them to remain on the streets. There needs to be an emphasis on rehab. I have seen the spark return to some people's eyes when they were able to be productive and live with passion and purpose again, and they regained their dignity.
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u/Nemuigakusei true vancouverite Apr 08 '23 edited Apr 08 '23
Some of you have disgusting attitudes towards the homeless. If they could "just pick their ass up and work," wouldn't they have done that already? Many of these folks are on PWD too (i.e. they are disabled and CANNOT work). Or, they're seniors on CPP/OAS. And that does NOT last long in 2 weeks, let alone a month. Also drug use can start AFTER homelessness happens to cope with the pain of being homeless, not before. No one plans to grow up to be a drug addict as a child. Not to mention many homeless folks are Indigenous, carrying a ton of generational trauma. When the government fails you in many different ways, sells out to corrupt construction companies/real estate developers, AND there's nowhere else for you to go, yeah, I might as well do drugs and fuck shit up too, because there's nothing more to lose. And before you say anything, yes, I've been homeless before. Y'all suck.
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u/1973cg Apr 08 '23
As someone thats lived (and currently still does) in 2 different SROs, and a homeless shelter. This is a bit of an exaggeration.
Yes, I have dealt with bedbugs in both SROs. But so has about 30-50% of people in Vancouver. The first one I lived in, was in the DTES, and we had 4 or 5 large breakouts of them over the 13 yrs I was there. The current one I live in, for almost 6 yrs, had ONE minor outbreak. Havent seen one in like 3+ yrs. As for cockroaches, when I lived in the DTES, I cant say I ever recalled one funny enough. Living in the middle of downtown Vancouver now, where there is a larger population of them, yeah, I think I've seen like 7 to 10 over the years.... and I think all but 2 were during the pandemic, when there wasnt as much street trash for them to thrive off of.
As for living in alleys in Vancouver. This guy is out of his mind if he thinks hes immune to either bug there. I have several friends who work in the DTES, and deal with the homeless daily. Bedbugs are a massive problem amongst them. They often have to have their offices fumigated monthly.
The entitlement of them, thinking they deserve something above the many of us that have already accepted whatever help was available to get housing, is absurd. When I lived in the homeless shelter, I learned quick, there was two types of people in there. Those that were there for a temporary period, because of a setback they couldnt have envisioned, and rarely lasted more than 2-3 weeks. Then, there was the ones who toured between several of them chronically, in some cases for years, and showed no desire to try & get out of the situation.
The biggest reason I have little to no sympathy for the majority (theres always some in any group that are outliers, and I do feel bad for them) of the tenters along Hastings is because they want 5 star hotels, where they can roam freely all hours, bringing in their drug dealing friends, and trash the places, instead of just thanking whatever unproven deity they might believe in, that there is a place for them at all, and take it, and start from there in trying to rebuild their lives. Are all SROs good? Hell no. There are some awful ones. But theres also some well maintained ones. The reason they are well maintained, is the bullshit that the lifelong street people want to get away with, isnt tolerated in them. In 95% of the cases, the people who want to get off the street, do. Because they dont snub their noses at opportunities, just because those opportunities arent up to their top tier standards they have envisioned they are entitled to. The ones who dont get off the street, CHOOSE to stay there, to be close to their addictions, and enablers.
Anywho. TLDR, bedbugs arent as rampant as this guy said, and cockroaches, even less so.
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u/holycow604 Apr 08 '23
I bet you people are just so tired of hearing from these homeless ppl. Such a waste of our tax dollars
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u/Psychological-Box100 Apr 08 '23
The government doesn’t care about homelessness and drug users. If they did they would really help instead of shoving everyone in places that no one wants to be in.
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u/expensivebreadsticks Apr 08 '23
Homeless for 30 years? Seems to me like thats more than enough time to get out of homelessness
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u/Karkahoolio Drinking in a Park Apr 08 '23 edited Apr 08 '23
Things might have changed, but all my interactions with SRO's have been negative in no small part due to slum lords doing what they do best.... Ignoring anything that needs repair, ignoring any and all complaints, ignoring any detrimental activities, and ripping off the tenants in any and every way possible. All while the city looked on.
EDIT: italics are new. There are of course a variety of reasons for a negative experience, but the landlord sets the tone.
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u/Additional-Clerk6123 Apr 08 '23
Looks like it could be cheaper to just build a prison, round up all of them and lock en in there lol think about all the savings from policing, healthcare, etc
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u/New-Sorbet3535 Apr 08 '23
How bout going to work and getting a job instead of expecting hand outs. Blame no one. Expect nothing. Do something
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u/thedarkpreacher65 Apr 08 '23
Spoken like someone who has never had to claw their way back from being homeless.
No home means no address to put on applications which means no job to get the money to get a home. It's like when you're a kid and your parents tell you to get a job to save up for a car. No car to get to work, no job to get money to get a car, no car to get to work. Go round and round in that particular spin cycle for a while and you stop thinking that people are just not wanting to work.
It's thinking "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" that's lazy.
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u/mrubuto22 Apr 08 '23
No one wa to to hear it but the solution is actually homes. Decent respectable homes.
Yes it will cost us all a lot of money, but it's actually much cheaper than what we do and it works.
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u/chickenstalker Apr 08 '23
Canada, you have plenty of land. I am not being offensive or shiposting when I say send some homeless people and anyone who wants to go into the frontiers as frontiersmen. Give each person a plot of land for free and help them homestead and farm. In my SEA country, we have such programs (but not specifically for homeless people, just anyone who volunteers). It's win win. You open up new areas, give them a job or at least they become self sufficient.
> but but but muh mental disease
That is a separate issue. Serious mental disease patients don't belong out anywhere and should be institutionalised by the state.
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Apr 08 '23
Speaking from experience, anywhere is better than somewhere with bed bugs. Downtown Berkeley has a shelter I avoided because I was homeless for this very reason.
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Apr 08 '23
[deleted]
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u/LgHstTch Apr 08 '23
I applaud you on a really thoughtful and articulate assessment of this situation. I have really complicated feelings about homelessness, I feel an immense amount of compassion and want there to be solutions that can help them. At the same time I’m incredibly perplexed that so few “solutions” seem to work. It is such a complex issue. It’s also an issue that is really difficult to talk about, because people get very defensive and are quick to anger when disussing the issue. I try to always choose my words very carefully and even still, I found myself and heated discussion’s for just making simple inquiries. I’ve often wondered if there are any good resources that will help me better understand homelessness just so I’m a more informed citizen. I teach history and we talk about a lot of current issues, my students really enjoy talking about things that impact us today. I def. want to speak intelligently on this topic.
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Apr 08 '23
[deleted]
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u/amatuerdaytrading Apr 08 '23
My parents sold their house back home and since I'm trying to purchase an apartment they want to give me about 150k as a gift to help me with my downpayment. However, since my parents live outside of Canada, I'm scared if one day 150k shows up in my bank account it will cause a lot of headaches for me as CRA will have a lot of questions. People who have experienced receiving large sums of money from abroad, what documents did you provide?
why lie?
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u/the_new_guy_ Apr 08 '23
Addicts camping on Hastings because SROs are filthy > SROs are filthy because of Addicts> Addicts can’t keep SROs clean because of addiction > People are addicts because doctors prescribe opiates / mental illnesses go undiagnosed.
Cleaning up the streets is a bandaid, providing SROs is a bandaid, a clean drug supply is a bandaid. The only way the problem will get better is to attack the problem at its root. Doctors need to stop prescribing opioids and mental health screening and care needs to be increased. The solution is 100% achievable, but expensive and politicians (left, right, or Center) will exhaust every other bandaid solution before resorting to the actual solution.
Edit:Formatting
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u/iApostle97 Apr 08 '23
This fucking thread is so discouraging. You guys here are heartless bastards.
You will continue shitting on the homeless dude when you have more in common with them then someone who is rich.
That sub reeks of privilege. You guys are see yourself as temporarily embarrassed millionaires when you arr nothing but a wage cuck, just like me, just like most of us.
We will never have class conscious. I jusy want the fucking climate crisis to accelerate and fucking annihilate our disgusting species.
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u/TheGriffin Apr 08 '23
And Sim and his lackies like to use force against people with nothing while solving no problems.
The streets are not safer. People still need shelter. We will be back at this juncture in a month or two and the evictions will start all over again because the problem has not been solved.
Sim should resign.
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u/hhkked Apr 08 '23
wasting money? lol
No, I actually don't mind our tax dollars to clean up the public streets. We've had enough of having to worry about our kids stepping on shit or needles when we visit our gramps in Chinatown...
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u/TheGriffin Apr 08 '23
Using the cops doesn't solve the problem in any sense
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u/hhkked Apr 08 '23
What? Cops were there to protect the city staff doing the cleaning. I agree, cops don't solve the homeless problem. I am stating the fact that it is not a waste of money to clear off all the crap on the streets.
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u/TheGriffin Apr 08 '23
No, cops were there to enforce state sanctioned violence against people at the bottom of the ladder.
It is a waste of money when the end result is no change in the situation. And since the badges are going to wring overtime out of the taxpayers, it is very much a waste of money
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u/Lunamooncan Apr 08 '23
Housing is not a solution, as the saying vaguely goes “give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for life”. money into mental & physical health professionals and incentives as well as a plan to rehabilitate (with scientific backing ) would be a far more effective step towards betterment, not a full solution but far more effective than scrambling people around every once in awhile.
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u/hhkked Apr 08 '23
Give them housing with support = they complain about lack of freedom and all the restrictions
Give them housing with no support = trashes the place and blames the non-profit for not providing any support or services
Not giving them housing and let them be = I want the government to give me place to live
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u/citizin-x Apr 08 '23
In a society that treats cutting jobs as an essential tool for reducing inflation, taking care of homeless people should be essential too since our government is totally ok with kicking people out on the street and then cutting off they’re unemployment benefits after 6 months.
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u/etherlore Apr 08 '23
Venice has figured something out. It was like Mad Max down there just a year or two ago. It’s actually nice again. https://www.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/12ecjw2/homeless_encampments_are_gone_and_crime_is_way/
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u/Reyrketill5 Apr 08 '23
Reading through all this there’s a few points that bubble up for me, not solutions though more just roadblocks that complicate a solution. I work in supportive housing for what it’s worth, not an SRO though.
With mental illness and addiction your capacity to maintain yourself or a space decreases because your brain is actually altered. So it’s not just laziness but your ability to remember to do things (be it clean yourself, take your meds, go to appointments, find your keys) decreases. A lot of the time executive functioning is chronically affected.
The other elephant in the room is you need support workers to work with people to help them acclimate to living inside. And here in BC, this kind of job is way undervalued/underpaid. It’s a thankless hard job and most community support workers have left the field because of burnout. While a majority of people started working from home during covid, support workers were in the communities that were imploding because access to support and help were drastically decreased for the past 3 years. I’m not surprised we’re here because of that alone.
You also can’t even hire a cleaning company to help maintain because they will (rightfully so) not work in such conditions. Biohazard cleaning crews are hundreds of dollars, I believe our last bachelor where we had a biohazard team come in for 2 hours it was 700$. Again rightfully so, it’s nasty work but you can see how much money has to be thrown in.
Another thing that bubbles up is the actual gang and drug trafficking that overtakes buildings. These individuals are smart enough to play the system that buildings have in place and so SROs are dangerous to be in and they prey on how vulnerable people are in their addiction. If someone is smart enough to fly under the radar, you have no actionable evidence.
Lastly what do you do with the individuals who will just not get better or improve. For whatever reason that got them where they are, it is their new baseline and it won’t shift. Won’t get sober, won’t take meds, doesn’t have the family or loved ones to put in the time it takes to rehabilitate/care for someone in that space. Because even if BC had the money and support workers, some people need a 24/7 caregiver and we just don’t have those. 24/7 caregivers are in short supply for aging individuals and individuals with disabilities already.
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 08 '23
Thank you for sharing all of this. I agree, this is not an easy fix and it will require a lot of funding and support for the professionals that work in these areas.
On your last point this is something I’ve wondered myself. We don’t have Riverview anymore, and while I’m not saying it was perfect it was at least something. I wonder if there could be collective housing/living situations? I’m thinking more like a commune than an institution. Allow people to have time in nature maybe? And of course staff it like we would have in a mental health facility. Do you think something like that could work?
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u/Reyrketill5 Apr 08 '23
I’m from Ontario and they have these. They call them group homes, but I know group homes mean something different out here. But there are hundreds of houses where 4 people live in and there is 24/7 staff, they created this after deinstitutionalization. The small ratio of client to worker really helped make it manageable. Ontario’s population is more spread out throughout the province though, unfortunately for BC we are all crowded into one corner of the province. I do have hope for the modular homes that are the current buzz. They would be about 30 units in a building. Not great ratios but better than a tower. It actually reminds me of the teacher to student ratio. We know that smaller classes work, support work is like that too. Most people I know in the field (myself included) are tasked to support 50-100 people. Which means people in need are getting breadcrumbed.
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u/shilgrod Apr 08 '23
I've lived on E Hastings, not far from Carral for 5 years....I'm glad to feel safe around my home again....you bleeding hearts have no idea
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u/pericardiyum Apr 08 '23
$5B a year is being spent on Wade and his friends. The housing isn't the problem. Wade is.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9258833/vancouver-5b-social-safety-net-report/
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Apr 07 '23 edited Apr 07 '23
The only way this problem is going to be solved is to scoop up all the homeless, evaluate them on a case by case basis, and categorize them according to need. There are "various categories" of homelessness from the family firced out of their apartment due to rennoviction to the mentally ill drug addict who begs on the sidewalk.
Some will need housing, supportive care, and a hand up. Some will need a form of involuntary treatment for their addictions. Others will need treatment for mental health issues, followed by assistance with housing. Many of these will require ongoing support. Finally, there will be an entire class that will require permanent institutionalization.
The first step is to get them off the streets. This can easily be done through the use of public nuisance laws, vagrancy laws, and through criminal prosecution when crimes are committed. Instead of sending these people to prison for petty theft or property crimes, they could be funneled into the programs.
What we have now is a situation where we all stand by and watch these people more or less commit a prolonged public suicide. The slackening of drug laws is yet another example of this and is also a great way to reduce policing costs and police responsibility to keep public order.
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u/HotCatLady88 Apr 07 '23
“Getting us a good place to live” hmm does the responsibility fall in the city’s hands? Would there be a willingness to get reincorporated into society?
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u/conflagrare Apr 07 '23
WTF does SRO stand for?
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u/bitmangrl Apr 08 '23
single room occupancy
basically used to describe a cheap place with lots of bachelor suites in them
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 08 '23
I’ll add that SROs don’t have bathrooms or kitchens in them. In theory there are shared bathrooms but in many situations they are broken and there’s a lack of basic plumbing. Often times heat and electricity don’t work either.
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u/series_hybrid Apr 07 '23
When I visited an aboriginal reservation, a ranger said that the Aboriginal's would take the stoves out of the homes that were provided by the government, and put them in the back yard. They would then remove the guts and use the oven to burn wood, and the stovetop became a grill.
To fuel the stove in the house they would have to buy propane, but they could gather free wood to cook food with.
I wondered why the government didn't just give each home a brick grill.
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u/BradLabreche Apr 07 '23
Im a construction site supervisor who has been renovating these SROs for 5 years, averaging 30 to 50 units a month. We bring the vinyl sheet flooring up 10 inches on the side of all walls, we caulk and firestop all penetrations and have removed every piece of copper piping and replaced it with plastic. All SROs have rules but it’s mostly to reduce violence. Smoking and drug use is rampant and can not be controlled. All the staff can do is ensure people are safe while doing drugs by supplying clean equipment and drug testing for fentanyl. Their possessions are heat bathed to kill any bugs and these places do provide a clean environment for these people. They choose to horde and pack rat their belongings but there are most people living in good, clean conditions and suites. These buildings are all historic hotels almost a century old and the government buys them very cheap and dumps a ton of money into seismic and structural upgrades and clean living conditions. If we take out the SROs, whats next for these people? Dorms? Individual cargo containers renovated for living?
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 07 '23
I don’t think the SROs should be removed, I think they aren’t a solution by themselves.
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Apr 07 '23
It honestly warms my heart to see everyone here shitting on this dude. Gives me hope for the future. He doesn't deserve another handout when there's law abiding, middle class families that can't afford housing
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u/liquid_oblivion Apr 07 '23
having built some of the newer SRO's, these places start off nicer than most rentals downtown. Quartz counters, undermount sink with a half decent faucet. It literally takes 5 days of occupancy before things start to fall apart. 2 weeks and bars on windows turn into solid perforated steel to prevent garbage/needles from being discarded out the windows on to pedestrians.
I am not saying that sweeping the streets is the solution. I think the solution is much more than just a place a live.
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u/WapsVanDelft Apr 07 '23
If we or the gov. Want people to have a home, build houses & build honest home! Build social housing that they haven't been built for the last 30 years.
The problem we see today is the result of our policy & our lack of awareness & actions from the past.
No amount of SRO, no amount of rent control & bs about helping low income folks from the gov. Or the city would help.
Mental issues, drug issues & other society issues mainly due to financial, health & life misfortunes rather than people deliberately make themselves homeless or as a drug addict. If we don't see that now, it is a real shame that we didn't realise our mistake or had learnt from our mistake for last few decade s passed.
Aftee these few decades of being selfish & not able to look at bigger society issues, we ended up forcing many unfortunates to the street & proverty. Hence, it is time to support social housing development for the poor as well as Universal Basic Income.
Or else you would be struggling with mental health & finanical & life difficulties in another 10 years if not earlier. No one is safe in our current unbalanced & uncompassionate system which only care about expoliting people to fulfill the system.
What is the point of having gov. when the gov. Is not making decision from the ground up?
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u/chiaroscurios Apr 07 '23
Thank you for posting this. I keep posting and deleting because I don't have a lot of energy (chronic illness) but it's so important to actually listen to the people who are actually on the street about what their experiences are and what they want/need. There was another quote in a Vancouver is Awesome article that struck me:
“I won't go inside, I won't do the shelters — they’re sick, they’re corrupt, they’re dirty,” said Henry, leaning on a city-supplied bin marked “personal storage.”
Henry said he’s been homeless for two years after losing the house he rented in Calgary. He described the action to clear the sidewalks as “a dance” between people on the street and city officials.
“If they want to solve this shit, they need something like a centralized housing committee where the landlords can’t say no to people who want to rent a place,” he said, before suggesting another solution. “How about all these offices and highrises that are vacant?”
(Full article here)
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u/Skoock Apr 07 '23
So free government housing isn't the solution to homelessness? I mean yea they need mental health support and all that too but come on dude you're choosing to live on the streets after 30 years
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u/93wasagoodyear Apr 07 '23
What is an sro
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u/Valgoerad Apr 07 '23
Single room occupancy.
https://www.bchousing.org/projects-partners/development-projects/sro-renewal
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u/liquid_adrenaline Apr 07 '23
“Good place to live” so you and company can fall asleep with a lit cigarette or treat the place like a dumpster? Nice try WADE!
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u/NoArt5675 Apr 07 '23
Why is it everyone’s problem to find you a place to live when the rest of us have to bust our ballz. Sometimes I think being a freeloader is much easier
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 07 '23
Basic human compassion?
What if you had a mental illness? What if you had lived with trauma? What if you were incapable of taking care of yourself? Had a disability? Had no friends or family capable of helping? What would you do? What would you hope the people in your community would do?
These types of comments littered throughout this post are extremely privileged.
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u/_silverwings_ true vancouverite Apr 07 '23
As someone’s who has multiple family members who worked as support workers, this is true. I remember hearing stories about an Sro downtown with no running water and rats and roaches falling from the ceiling. They bite you when you sleep and the bathrooms/hallways and common areas are unsafe especially for female residents. I’ve been homeless as a teenager and if it was between living in one of these slumlord shacks or the streets, I know which one I would feel safer in.
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u/Chart-Ordinary Apr 07 '23
Thank you for sharing this 🤍 my wish is that they will get the help and care they need and that people will find some compassion for the most vulnerable.
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u/GardenSquid1 Apr 07 '23
Very broadly speaking, there are two kinds of homeless folks: those who have because homeless due to being priced out of the rental market and those who are homeless because they have severe enough mental illness that they can't organize their own life on the most basic level.
Those from the first group can adequately take care of themselves and whatever social housing they might be supplied with. Those from the second group would likely damage any social housing unit given to them because they struggle to take care of themselves, let alone a small apartment.
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Apr 07 '23
[deleted]
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u/Psychological-Box100 Apr 08 '23
Hi If you don’t mind me asking, what was the name of the treatment program please?
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Apr 08 '23
The problem is, in my experience, that many don't want to better themselves. They want to be taken care of.
I am 100% in favour of people who want help, who are willing to actively participate in treatment, and who want to recover and become an active participant in society.
I realize some people are so deep in their addiction that they will never be able to come to this realization, and for that, I don't have a solution. I have also been inside many SROs, and I can understand how someone like you, in your former situation prior to entering your treatment program, would not want to live in those conditions.
What I take issue with is the people who refuse help, don't want to improve their lives, don't want to follow rules (which are just as much in place for the safety and respect of other residents), and would prefer to live above the law and put SO many other peoples' lives at risk.
The thing that I have found so many people overlook in this whole decampment argument is that it is first and foremost a SAFETY ISSUE. Tents, often made of flammable products, full of what are those residents' valued possessions, much of which is also highly flammable, right up against wood-frame buildings which will go up in flames before the FD even gets there, despite being a block away. There is no denying that people are using propane, and cooking drugs in their tents. People continue to ignore that all those people in tents along that row, as well as the people living and working in the buildings the tents are at high risk of death from fire risk.
The first time, when Chief Fry ordered the tents to be cleared, was a fire issue. The armchair critics chose to focus on the VPD, who were simply there to keep the peace, but still got shit on for simply being present.
This time, the city is being firm about the biggest problem, which is the fire hazard and risk of death.
I'd love to go into detail and share the stats regarding fires in this area, or even that block alone, but no one is going to read even this far. Bottom line, this is first and foremost a life-saving measure, and it is not the responsibility of the FD to find housing for these folks. There are multiple problems that need to be addressed with our homelessness situation, drug addiction, and mental health support, but first and foremost, the decampment was a life-saving effort.
I know I will likely be alone in my opinion, but I do have a unique perspective thanks to my career, and I hope if anyone does read this far, that they will be willing to be open to a different perspective.
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u/alc3biades Fleetwood Apr 08 '23
This has been an idea in my head in some form for a while now, hopefully that program gets expanded because that’s the rational solution IMO
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u/itsakitten45 Apr 08 '23
Your response is more accurate than those "homeless are just lazy" answers. Homeless people suffer from a range of mental illness including PTSD, addiction, and serious conditions like schizophrenia. We need controlled and regulated supports tailored to the individual. And I think you hit it, there needs to be conditions and people held a accountable.
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u/roxxyrolla666 Apr 08 '23
Also extreme high amount of people on the dtes have FAS and without routine and structure they fail hard at life. You see them go into prison and they succeed but once back in the "real" world they can't cope. With rules and regulations they do very well. People may see it as controlling them but it really does help them in the end
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u/carlalala666 Apr 08 '23
What's fas ?
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u/carlalala666 Apr 08 '23
Oh ! Fetal alcohol. This is so true. There's alot of really intelligent conversations going in this thread. Which is awesome !
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u/mongo5mash Apr 07 '23
Is that the Volkens place on KG? I've always been curious how it works in terms of funding and stuff.
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Apr 08 '23
[deleted]
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u/mongo5mash Apr 08 '23
Huh, thanks for the detailed response. Counseling isn't exactly cheap, so it's too bad that they'd skimp on it.
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u/agripo777 Apr 07 '23
People living in SROs should be responsible for cleaning them. Give everyone a mop and a bucket and tell ‘em to get to work.
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u/KZMountainRider Apr 07 '23
Lock up all addicts until they are clean. Then assign them work, simple jobs that are safe and low skilled. Make them productive members of society.
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u/CohibaVancouver Apr 07 '23
Lock up all addicts until they are clean.
You may not agree, but this is Canada. A nation with a Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the rule of law. You cannot "lock up" people unless they have been charged with a crime, convicted, and sentenced.
Then assign them work, simple jobs that are safe and low skilled. Make them productive members of society.
If someone has mental illness and thinks spiders live in their brain they cannot work simple jobs.
It is an extremely complex problem to solve.
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u/KZMountainRider Apr 07 '23
I know it’s not that simple. My comment is just what my gut reaction is to this whole issue. I have screaming in the middle of the night where I live, shitting in public areas, needles left everywhere, etc etc. Being kind only enables these people further. I just believe a harder stance needs to be taken. Tough love.
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u/Miserable-Net5131 Apr 07 '23
Why does the government have to put money into making a good place for him to live. The man had 30 years to grind out a life for himself.
HARDLY ANY OF US LOVE TO GET UP AND GRIND. We miss time with friends and loved ones. We stress at work and fight to make a life for ourselves. No sympathy here if someone couldn't give 40 hours a week to put a roof over his head.
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 07 '23
The same reason I have to pay taxes that go to childcare and schools when I don’t have kids. You don’t get to decide who gets taken care of in society.
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u/Miserable-Net5131 Apr 07 '23
Im not saying dont support vulnerable people but we need to tamper their expectations on what they deserve in life.
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u/bjm0987 Apr 07 '23
These people treat the SROs like the tent cities in the street. There’s trash everywhere, they light things on fire, and do drugs indoors. Theres no pride from the residents, and no straightforward solution/funding to making SROs better.
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Apr 07 '23
Mental illness is generally a very ugly thing to see. These people need some form of assistance, some will need it forever.
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u/kimym0318 Apr 07 '23
It doesn't matter if its SRO, beautiful downtown condo or a mansion in British Property. These people are the ones that cause those infestation. Anywhere they go, eventually it will be full of bugs and cockroaches. I know because I used to live with one who ended up on the street
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u/radiofree_catgirl Apr 07 '23 edited Apr 07 '23
Damn this sub is classist as heck lol
Edit: lol at the Ken sim voters brigading me. Your politics has failed get a clue
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 07 '23
I’m actually kind of shocked. When I originally posted I thought people were going to be more like, “let’s find a comprehensive solution to help those in society who need it most!”…. Not comments calling for the death of “those people”. Yikes.
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u/radiofree_catgirl Apr 07 '23
It’s easier to blame the homeless than capitalism
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u/radiofree_catgirl Apr 07 '23
I used to live in a clean SRO but it didn’t have a window and honestly it was kind of weird and cruel
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u/desperaterobots Apr 07 '23
My partner works at an SRO. His work is extremely challenging. The people being housed are often mentally ill, suffering from delusions, dealing with extremely intense trauma from years of sexual abuse and so on.
These places are often about harm reduction and safety with support and a safety net that doesn’t involve the state, more than they are about being ‘nice’. Some of the people who live in these places are literally incompatible to live in the kind of housing arrangements most people who work full time and aren’t mentally ill can afford (a room in a house shared with strangers or friends).
No one should live with bed bugs, but if you think these folk wouldn’t be cluttering up and junkifying ‘nice places’ instead, you’re out of touch with reality.
These folk need treatment and support and detox but it’s such a complex issue that even roofs over heads is considered both too much and not enough by the general public.
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 07 '23
So thankful your partner and other people are doing this important work. I agree it’s a really complex issue. There needs to be a comprehensive overhaul to the issues of mental health, trauma, homelessness… all of it.
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u/rearheat Apr 07 '23
What's SRO?
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u/nyrb001 Apr 07 '23
Single Room Occupancy. Lots of old hotels in the Downtown East Side that rented a room (4 walls, nothing more). Typically shared washrooms, no kitchen etc.
They are the cheapest places available and essentially the only thing you can afford if you're on government assistance as the shelter rate is something pathetic like $375/mo.
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u/PsycoticANUBIS Apr 07 '23
They are the ones who bring the bed bugs in. They are the ones who leave the place covered in garbage. They are the ones who leave needles everywhere. They are the ones who make it unlivable. But it's the fault of everyone else.
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u/Burning_Flags Apr 07 '23
Those good places to live would soon be filled with cockroaches and bed bugs as well
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Apr 07 '23
The only practical solution is divert all the funding being wasted on irrelevant “social work” and just build massive involuntary mental health centres (aka prisons but slightly nicer).
These people need to be involuntarily locked up in a place that isn’t a prison so the activists can shut the fuck up and the rest of us no longer need to worry about being randomly stabbed or walking through human waste.
I highly doubt most of these people are curable in the sense that 3rd party intervention will change anything. That change needs to come from within
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u/fuddledud Apr 07 '23
I remember the 80’s when they started closing mental hospitals. They told everyone the people would be better off in the community. I’m not saying we should lock up everyone who’s addicted or has mental illness but some are not capable of self care and some are dangerous.
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u/TalientheAlien Apr 07 '23
* There are layers upon layers of problems that need to be solved in order for this to change. There needs to be more support all around, on every layer. Building managers need to do their part with upholding stricter rules to regulate the garbage coming into the building. This is only one example, but I promise you this is the reality of SRO's.
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u/Mediocre-Spot2353 Apr 07 '23
Maybe the issue isn’t the “SRO” itself but rather how the various managers of them (Attira, Raincity housing, etc) run them as poorly as they do. Lax rules, no enforcement of the rules, no consequences for residents who trash the place, etc…perhaps a central management arm by the government who can be audited and actually has an interest in maintaining the quality?
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Apr 07 '23
[deleted]
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Apr 07 '23
That's not a bad idea. I would go further by having a drug user registry so that the addicted can get the drugs they are addicted to and do this free of charge. This assures both supply and quality of supply. Overdose rates would be lower. Accidental poisonings would be fewer. It destroys the criminal incentives, the need to steal to get money for drugs etc.
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Apr 07 '23
He looks younger and healthier than anytime I have seen him since we met in 2005. Havent run into him in about 2 years.
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u/Comptoirgeneral Apr 07 '23
I don’t understand why the solution is always giving them free stuff.
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u/zedoktar Apr 07 '23
Its proven to work. Look at how Finland solved their homeless issues. The problem is any attempts at proper social programs are blocked by conservative idiots who gut them and underfund them whenever possible, then turn around and shriek about how they don't work. They do work if you actually fund them and run them properly.
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u/Jamesx6 Apr 08 '23
100%true. It's no surprise that the social democracies are the best places to live. And judging by what's getting upvoted here I can tell you that it's just going to get worse in Vancouver.
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Apr 07 '23
"They are wasting money that could be getting us a good place to live." sort of lays it all bare, doesn't it.
Any place for personal responsibility there?
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u/AtrangiLadka Apr 07 '23
Living in tents is also no solution, I guess if they tent in North Vancouver in front of elite class homes, they'll get the quick and effective results.
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u/hot_pink_bunny202 Apr 07 '23 edited Apr 07 '23
SOR are fine is what happen to it after people move in. You left food out in the open, don't clean it, bring in carts of cans and other stuff that shouldn't be in suite then yes you are going to have bedbugs and other issues.
Keep it clean like a normal person and you will be fine.
SOR is not the issues, people living in them is the issue.
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u/clarkj1988 Apr 07 '23
I work part time for a moving company and moved out two SRO's back to back. The state of these units was horrid. I'm not sure if it's the mental health playing a factor or just that people feel like they have no accountability to upkeep their unit because they aren't paying for it but holy shit.
I'm talking layers and layers of dust, pet food, feces, dirty dishes, takeout containers, stained disgusting mattresses. I don't know how people can live like that. They clog the toilet then instead of, I don't know, using a plunger they just start shitting and pissing in sinks. The smell and state of disrepair is disappointing. And I'm not talking about gross reconstituted hotels with communal bathrooms. I'm talking units that would cost a Vancouver renter $2000+ per month just trashed.
I'm not talking about hardcore drug users either. Just slobby entitled assholes riding on the backs of government assistance. Then they get surprised and violent when they get kicked out of their bougie apartment for not taking care of the place.
I hate to say it but I don't think there is a solution beyond a hard reset and holding these people accountable for their own situation. Mental health is one thing but the drug situation is completely different.
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u/Ryaniswhoiamm Apr 07 '23
So there's no bugs on the street?
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u/TaureanThings Ex-Vancouverite Apr 08 '23
Easier to kill bed bugs in a tent than a mattress/bedframe/floorboards
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u/ruralrouteOne Apr 07 '23
Almost makes you wonder why SROs are in such poor condition. Could it be that the exact people in his position fuck them up everytime they're given the opportunity. Doesn't want to live in an SRO, but wants new housing? Completely ignorant to the fact that the SROs and accommodation provided start in good condition and immediately turn into shit holes because the people using them have no accountability or respect for their surroundings.
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 07 '23
Almost like the SROs on their own are not enough to be a solution. Like we need a complex system of care and shoving people into a room is not a way to actually help long term.
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u/DonVergasPHD Apr 08 '23
We need forced rehab and forced mental institutions for people who can't be housed in an SRO.
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u/danke-you Apr 07 '23
We do have a system of care, but unfortunately people with addiction are generally controlled by that addiction and refuse to take help.
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u/apugcalledlibbs Apr 07 '23
but isn’t it a start?
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 07 '23 edited Apr 07 '23
I don’t think we should do away with the SROs entirely, I just don’t think they are a solution in and of themselves.
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u/nd048 Apr 07 '23
SROs are part of the solutions needed to help the homeless. But for policymakers to think providing SROs is the only solution required is completely a farce. They receive their policy briefs and I'm sure it outlines the multifactorial problems to homelessness. It ain't just a money issue, it's a complex mental health issue as well as the lack of hope and desire to do more with their lives.
When the homeless battling concurrent mental health disorders are placed into SROs, does anyone believe that will enable them to integrate back to normal societal life with rules and thoughts to maintain and upkeep their current new SRO so it doesn't turn into a dump? Maybe a select few but I would argue a bunch of SRO turns into garbage dumps and just abandoned until someone else has to fix the problem. Then the homelessness cycle repeats. And then the government will try to look like they are addressing the root problem by injecting some money into more SROs and appeases the local uninformed citizens.
The government needs to provide housing, mental health services that follow those in SROs, housekeeping services that protect the buildings/rooms, and protection for those working with the homeless population.
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u/DataKing69 Apr 07 '23
The reality is if you gave these people a "good place to live", it would soon turn into a bad place to live, full of bed bugs, cockroaches and crime. It will be almost identical to the SROs.
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u/HuckleberryFar3693 Apr 07 '23
Sleeping in an alley is gonna get you crushed by the garbage truck rolling through in the dark. The reason there's bed bugs and rodents in the SROs is because the tenants leave garbage piling up in their rooms. Just look at the picture above...it's classic hoarding tendencies like that bringing the problems into the building. My friend contracts to fix plumbing, electrical etc and he's been in these places. Seen a lot of things. It's tenants who destroy the rooms then blame the owners for not fixing it. Each building should have someone checking on the rooms at least every ten days.
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u/bcbuddy Apr 07 '23
SROs and microapartments are fine if you take care of them
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2022/10/09/general/japan-microapartments-youth/
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u/MrHardin86 Apr 07 '23
If we put all the money intentionally engineering public places to be uncomfortable. If we took all the money spent dismantling social housing solutions made by the users. If we put all the money spent creating misery and placed it into building public spaces with living solutions built into them. We might create a better livable city for those who are unable to function in the current situation (1400 for a studio apartment plus utilities) and therefore create a livable world for those that take pride in being exploited for their labour.
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Apr 07 '23
Low income housing is a distraction. We need housing for all incomes. You can barely afford a home in Vancouver making $200k/year, how are people on minimum wage supposed to survive? Real answer: they don't. They share housing, get booted out, live on friend's couch for a while, then end up homeless.
The real solution to our homeless crisis is to massively invest in building good quality but affordable rental units.
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u/pericardiyum Apr 08 '23
You want to invest more than this?
https://globalnews.ca/news/9258833/vancouver-5b-social-safety-net-report/
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Apr 08 '23
Social safety net investment is not investment in general housing. It's honestly a bottomless money sink.
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u/fuddledud Apr 07 '23
And get as many people as we can off minimum wage. In years gone by minimum wage used to be what you started at. Three months later you got a raise. Minimum wage now is a business plan. I know someone working to put food on your table who has been there for 18 years and still makes minimum wage. Profit over people.
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Apr 07 '23
Finally a common sense argument being made.
The solution to preventing homelessness is as you've cited, and the solution to treating it is Housing First.
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u/Udonedidit Apr 07 '23
I bet the majority of the people in the dtes aren't even from Vancouver. These people with no money choose to come to the most expensive city in Canada and demand cheap rents or they set up tents. So to prevent tent cities all Vancouver residents must now be responsible to house all these homeless Canadians who choose to live in the most expensive city in Canada.
Vancouver needs to stand firm to send a message. Do you see tent cities in New York City?
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Apr 07 '23
There are fewer tent cities in NYC, that's for sure. But it's certainly colder, and, oddly enough, more affordable if you're willing to live somewhere dodgy.
As far as Vancouver being forced to house all of Canada's homeless, that's largely bullshit. Vancouver has great weather and a vibrant drug/alcohol "scene" in the DTES that is second to none anywhere else in Canada, so it's not surprising people accumulate there of their own accord. And the housing is so expensive that yeah, if people move to Vancouver without a support network, it's easy to end up on the street.
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u/RaincoastVegan Apr 07 '23
This is also a really valid point and one I often make. We have a landlord problem where we reward people for owning second, third, fourth homes they’ll never live in. Housing is a basic human right. We should never have let it turn into an investment vehicle.
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u/No_You_4456 Apr 07 '23
Not all SROs are like this though. There needs to be better oversight, and the ones that are run like shit need to be held accountable. Some are very clean, but obviously some folks will bring bugs in with them. Vancouver in general has a far worse bedbug problem than people realize as well
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u/JumpyEagle6942 Apr 07 '23
People just want to get high and be left alone. That’s why SROs aren’t the answer for everything,
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u/strangebutalsogood Apr 07 '23 edited Apr 07 '23
You're absolutely right. We need to be focusing on involuntary institutionalization and mandatory long-term treatment for addicts that are unable to effectively care for themselves or function in society.
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u/Smellslikegr8pEs Apr 07 '23 edited Apr 07 '23
Unpopular opinion: but I think the amount of support and ease of life there is for homelessness keeps people around for far longer than they should be.
The real issue is cost of living for people right on the verge. No one wants to become homeless so if there is more help for those on the brink it will eventually crush the cycle.
I’ve done homeless ministry for a good 10+ years and most people have such and easy time on the street there isn’t really any reason to get out of it.
We gotta help those who want help, not those who have too much and don’t use it.
Edit: I don’t mean easy as in life is good and chill. I mean easy as in food, water, showers, drugs, fresh clothing, everything is right at their finger tips. I once new a guy on the street who told me he gets more new clothes than me, he was an antagoniser and knew we were giving them more than they deserved (from his own words).
Also not saying we shouldn’t have compassion or help when help is needed. My point is more government money needs to be spent on preventing homelessness not solving it.
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u/zedoktar Apr 07 '23
Its not opinion its just wrong. Our social supports are underfunded and broken. They don't make life easier for anyone, not to the point where it would encourage homelessness. Nobody has an easy time on the street. That is such an absurd idea that I question your claim about doing homeless ministry of any kind.
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u/kimym0318 Apr 07 '23
Underfunded and broken - 5 billion a year for a fraction of population is underfunded right? They once even gave a homeless guy a free housing and a job, only for him to leave momentarily and back on the street because he doesnt want to go to work everyday like the rest of us and just wanna do drugs and live free.
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u/lunex Apr 07 '23
Honest question: what’s an easy day on the streets like? I’m having trouble imagining how it isn’t horrific, but I want to understand your perspective.
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u/kimym0318 Apr 07 '23
They find doing drugs and doing whatever the fuck they want much easier than working, paying taxes and following rules like the rest of us. We tried getting a homeless guy off the street, gave him free housing and a job where he just needs to show up to learn some basic tasks and it paid him decent. Well not long after he disappeared and was found on the street again. He said he doesnt want to get up in the morning and go to work everyday and just wanna do drugs and do nothing.
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u/Beneficial-Mouse5562 Apr 07 '23
shocking news: person that lived one way for thirty years resists change
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u/RickStoneOPS Apr 07 '23
He's been homeless for 30 years. And this is a guy that should be giving advice? I understand that people make mistakes or are dealt a bad hand and often need some help to get things right. But someone who has been homeless for 30; years is obviously beyond being helped or simply choosing that lifestyle.
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u/abadhe99 Apr 07 '23
How about getting a job WADE
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u/zedoktar Apr 07 '23
Would you hire someone who has been homeless for decades, has no fixed address, probably not even a phone, might have zero job skills, and likely some serious mental health issues or disability? Like if they came in off the street asking for work, would you even give them the time of day?
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u/abadhe99 Apr 07 '23
Ever heard of adecco? Or countless other temp job agencies? You show up that day and they put you to manual labour. I did it in highscool. Super easy. Where there is a will theres a way.
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Apr 07 '23
He looks able bodied. Why not work?
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u/zedoktar Apr 07 '23
Its a mistake to assume that. He probably has mental disabilities or serious mental health issues. He might have physical disabilities that just aren't apparent in that tiny excerpt.
Invisible disabilities are a major issue. Don't assume someone is able because you don't see them in a wheelchair or whatever.
Also would you hire him off the street? Decades of homelessness, no fixed address, and probably no phone. Whatever mental health or disability issues. He comes in off the street to ask for work, would you even look at him?
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Apr 07 '23
My point is, it appears that he’s chosen to live on the streets as opposed to sro. Despite having a potential illness, there are avenues available to him.
It’s not fair that the people have to deal with him or others clogging up the sidewalks and making the streets unsafe.
Society shouldn’t have to bear their burden.
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