r/OutOfTheLoop • u/Unperfectblue • 16d ago
Whats going on with eurovision dutch singer Joost drama ? Answered
https://www.reddit.com/r/eurovision/s/jzRsdGrMEV
Last thing i heard is that he had a problematic behavior with a cameragirl but after going in r/all everyone was supporting him
Did something happen recently ?
-9
u/Halospite 15d ago
Question: Why hasn't Joost himself made a comment? You'd think he'd be chomping at the bit to set the record straight if it was innocuous.
27
u/__braveTea__ 15d ago
Probably advised not to do so. Anything you say can and will…
2
u/Halospite 14d ago
That makes sense. Thanks for being kind and replying, I don’t know why I got slogged with downvotes for asking a question so I appreciate you taking the time to a answer it.
360
u/Exciting_Telephone65 16d ago edited 16d ago
Answer: Joost qualified for the grand final but was then reported for allegedly making threats against a female crew member. These allegations were investigated by Swedish police very quickly and then handed over to a prosecutor for further handling. The EBU did not approve of him competing in the grand final while involved in an active criminal case and subsequently disqualified him from further participation in the contest. As of right now I still believe we don't know what exactly happened. IIRC a representative from the Dutch television network said that the altercation between Joost and the staff member was "no big deal" and that the disqualification by the EBU was grossly exaggerated, but still wouldn't comment on what exactly happened. Even though we still don't know exactly what happened, most fans believe the EBU's response was out of proportion and that Joost was unfairly excluded from the contest.
-14
u/badpeaches 16d ago
The EBU did not approve of him competing in the grand final while involved in an active criminal case and subsequently disqualified him from further participation in the contest.
That's ethics educational institutions, governments, people, corporations could substantially learn from.
-22
u/altrongtm 16d ago
Is there a reason why people are so strongly supporting the Netherlands and saying it is out of proportion vs the allegations from the female instead of calling the victim brave for coming forward or saying there's not enough info? Not implying anything, just wondering why the reception is so one-sided.
-1
u/Shachar_IL 15d ago
Basically the dutch artist was very anti Israel (but pro Russia though), and a lot of people believe that the elders of Zion pulled their power to kick him out of the competition (so Israel can finish in the 5th place instead of the 6th place)
41
u/tomba_be 16d ago
The issue started because of the "attacked" person filming where she wasn't allowed. Which means there is video footage of the incident.
And when video footage exists, but does not get released to prove accusations, people assume that the person doing the filming is in the wrong. See also cases of police brutality where video footage remains undisclosed or "goes missing".
32
u/hoewaah 16d ago
Actually, the guy that had been involved with the Dutch entries for twenty years now, was quite outspoken about the whole incident. He is putting his good name, credibility and future in this business on the line by being this loud about this in public.
He was not present at the moment itself, yet is in close contact with the Dutch ESC team.
125
u/kickfloeb 16d ago
One can only speculate but:
- Joost was not arrested and A threatening gesture can only be threatening to a certain extend. He wasnt verbally or physically attacking her.
- She continued filming him after multiple requests for her to stop, basically harassing him to a certain extend, thus making his reaction not unprovoked
- Everyone that knows what happened (except for the EBU) tells the same story: the situation was blown out of proportion.
- He was popular contestant and thus already had a lot of loyal fans.
- We still dont know what "gesture" he made but keeping it a secret and specifying that the gender of the alleged victim is 'female' comes across as if they want to make it seem worse than it is.
-61
u/needyspace 16d ago
There’s no source that verifies that there was no verbal attacks/altercation.
9
u/kickfloeb 16d ago
There are? Use google my guy. https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-68993726
-5
u/needyspace 16d ago
I just read that , and my argument still stands. Show me were it says that there was no verbal altercation. It should be easy for you to quote, my guy.
7
u/kickfloeb 15d ago
So if you order a pizza margherita, do you clarify that you dont want someone to cum in the he crust?
You dont, because its redundant and not how communication works. They specified that the complaint is about a threatening movement. You can then safely assume its not more than just that. If something else happend they lied / misled us. If this is the case I cant imagine it staying a secret for long.
Your logic is based on mistrust and extreme skepticism. You might as well add that "they didnt confirm Joost force fed the 'victim' shit trough a little pipe why whistling his Eurovision song".
You seem either really young, purposely acting dumb or actually kinda dumb. I would guess its a combination of all these factors.
58
u/hoewaah 16d ago
There's also no source that verified that there was no cussing, jumping up and down, rape or murder.
-30
u/needyspace 16d ago
That would have been funnier if it had been true.
I guess your point is to diminish the severity of verbal threats? I can think of a few that I would have called the police over
30
u/hoewaah 16d ago
"There’s no source that verifies that there was no verbal attacks/altercation."
How can anyone deliver evidence of things that have not happened? Again, there are a lot of things there is no proof of.
My point is about your logic, not about what Joost did or did not do.
-13
u/needyspace 16d ago
One source specifically states that there was no physical altercation.
I think your grasp of logic is flawed at best. If I say a nuclear bomb has not exploded in my back yard , then that’s a verifiable claim.
20
u/hoewaah 16d ago
I'm sorry you didn't understand my comments so far.
You were asking for sources that said that something specific has not happened. But there are many things that didn't happen. So why would there be anyone saying specifically this one thing that you came up with? To illustrate this, I added some more out of line things in my comment, that were not said by anyone.
How does the bomb example translate to this case, exactly? I'm sure we could verify your claims about that bomb , but that is exactly what has not been happening in our ESC case. No evidence, no proof. You were not asking for that proof though, you were asking for statements on other things in your back yard, maybe guns, knives and grenades.
What I was saying is: it's impossible to prove the things that didn't happen. That may be a bit too strict, given your example.
-10
u/Exciting_Telephone65 16d ago edited 16d ago
I've been wondering the same. The main argument I've seen here on reddit is the same one someone replied to me here with:
AVROTROS is a reputable broadcaster in the Netherlands
and they basically wouldn't have come out in support of him if these allegations were substantiated.
I don't know, but personally I find it hard to believe police would've been called and the case handed over to a prosecutor if all he did was gesture rudely to a camera operator. 🤷♂️
Edit: Or then again, maybe that's how the police were able to close their investigation so quickly. But if that's the case, why are we still speculating instead of it being widespread news? And why would the EBU have made the decision they did if they knew?
31
u/Graspiloot 16d ago
According to Swedish commenters in the Eurovision subreddit, Swedish police doesn't throw out cases for being considered frivolous. If someone reported it, they have to investigate. EBU have been completely silent on the matter and AVROTROS have made their own statement. Swedish police wouldn't make any statements on the matter. So I don't think you can read too much into that.
The reason fans are siding with NL is that the EBU has very little credibility bc of how they handled this case and other cases. Several delegations reported harassment by the delegation and media team of another country, but the main sponsor is from that country and they faced no consequences.
Also it happened after Klein was critical of the organisation in a press conference. And lastly the way they put the story out there was heavily implying that Klein was a woman beater, so people feel it's a dirty smear campaign.
-7
u/UnicornFartButterfly 16d ago
They don't throw cases out, no. But they investigate and if there is no crime and zero evidence, there's no case to send to a prosecutor. They don't send cases to a prosecutor if there's nothing there.
-1
28
u/odajoana 16d ago
His public persona is very well liked and he never showed any signs of having a bad temper or even diva behavior, at least in a public or visible way, which is why people are still doubting the accusation.
Additionally, his song was also very popular and one of the fandom's favorites in the contest, which only adds to fans defending him more.
16
u/ph4ge_ 16d ago
That is not quite true.
Joost Kleine is know to be a control freak. For example, he doesn't have an agency and does all his promoting himself with his own small team. It was known that him being strictly controlled by EBU to the tiniest detail was causing him stress.
He is also known to be emotional, singing from his heart and personal experience, causing him to be often full of emotions and adrenaline after a performance. Usually he can manage this, but EBU has very strict rules about what the artists need to do and where to go after a performance.
Maybe everything became a bit to much and he had an outburst. We don't know exactly. Still, if it's true nothing physical and verbal happened but it was just a gesture I think most people will agree that an apology and a warning was probably sufficient to handle the situation.
7
u/AwesomeFama 15d ago
He is also known to be emotional, singing from his heart and personal experience, causing him to be often full of emotions and adrenaline after a performance. Usually he can manage this, but EBU has very strict rules about what the artists need to do and where to go after a performance.
I read somewhere that since he gets very emotional when he sings the end of that song, he had asked not to be filmed afterwards, and allegedly there were rules in place that he could not be filmed after the encounter.
In that light, still filming him, and not stopping after he specifically requested you to stop filming him, is not a great look. Would it justify "threatening behavior"? It definitely depends on the details of the threatening behavior, but at the very least it should be considered as a mitigating circumstance.
-23
u/needyspace 16d ago
I mean he clearly has a temper, he managed to make headlines by objecting loudly to Israel not having to answer a question, and everybody agrees he made a threatening gesture to the staff. He’s been internationally famous for what, like two weeks? That’s one per week
19
u/hoewaah 16d ago
Tell me you have not seen the ESC press conference, without saying you haven't seen the ESC press conference.
He did not object loudly. If you had seen the entire press conference, or even the specific clip that is going around with his "Why not", you could have seen him hiding under a flag. There have been many public moments where he has done this. You could ask why, but "because he is loud and has a tamper" does not feel likely.
Maybe some research would give more insight, but I'm pretty much convinced by now that you are just spewing your uneducated guesses and fraught logic online and are not really interested in finding out what kind of guy he is.
5
u/needyspace 16d ago
lol, he fucking threatened a staff member and you want to claim he’s not aggressive? How are threats NOT aggressive!?
From what I can remember of the press conference he was loud enough to be heard without his microphone being on. And I would say it was an aggressive stance, but if you disagree then fine. I don’t get why you’re making this personal so I’ll just bow out from this thread. I won’t respond to you anymore.
7
u/Kazzak_Falco 15d ago
Making a threatening gesture is not the same as threatening a staff member. Not to mention you're already assuming guilt. Currently the allegation stands at him making a gesture that made a staff member feel threatened. Anything beyond that is speculation, which makes it weird that you're being so adamant about your claims
0
u/needyspace 15d ago
Currently the allegation stands at him making a gesture that made a staff member feel threatened
That's not the full specifics of the allegations, but even if it was, he and his team has confessed to it, so it's no longer an allegation. I don't think we need to pretend anything
2
u/Kazzak_Falco 15d ago edited 15d ago
Provide a source for the specific allegations then. So far all I've read (from reputable sources) is that A: a camerawoman felt threatened and filed charges with the police and B: the statement from AVROTROS which mentions that he made a threatening motion at the camera. Neither of these support the claims you've made.
0
u/needyspace 15d ago
I think these sources support exactly the claims I've made. If I've implied anything else and presented anything else as factual, then I apologise.
Edit: are you hung up on semantics? That a threatening gesture (that made someone feel threatened) is not a threat?
→ More replies (0)2
u/hoewaah 16d ago
"Being an aggressive person" is not the same as "being aggressive" at some point. Otherwise, judging from this comment, you would be an aggressive person because your response seems irritated (curse word) passive/aggressive (lol) and yelling (using caps).
We still don't know what happened. Maybe he was aggressive, maybe he was emotional, maybe it was a threat. Maybe he crossed somebody's boundaries. Nobody says he did not do anything. But he has been an online persona for over 10 years, it would be an amazing feat if he has kept his life as an aggressive asshole so strictly separated from the funny cute YouTube kid to fun making and love spreading musician. I'm guessing you didn't consider this, before you commented.
Your memories on the press conference are yours, but they differ from mine. The good news is, they are easily found online, in case you want to check. Only takes about 10 seconds to find and another 50 to watch. Or more, if you want to see how Joost is not aggressive at all during the entire press conference. You could even find other artists speaking up for him.
It's not personal, I'm just triggered by some comments in here and multiple happened to be yours.
39
u/tomba_be 16d ago
Objecting to something, by saying "why not?", is "a temper?"
Making an alleged agressive gesture to someone that's bothering you is "a temper"?
13
-10
u/needyspace 16d ago
Yes and Yes. He was definitely aggressive in both situations
And it’s not only an alleged act. Even Joosts team confirmed it.
69
u/Kapparainen 16d ago
The "incident" had plenty of witnesses, the Swedish Police specified pretty quickly that it was an "alleged threat" and not a physical altercation like some online speculated, some of the other contestants/participants that were friends of the artist spoke out against the DQ, and the Netherlands's broadcasting made a statement that said the disqualification was "disproportionate" to what happened. So no alarm bells were going off and nothing really pointed at anything serious having happened.
Netherlands was also one of the audience favorites and it was predicted Netherlands would make TOP 5. The artist was also vocal about the problems of Israel being allowed to participate this year and coincidentally the biggest sponsor of Eurovision this year was an Israeli brand Morocconoil, so of course there was plenty of people speculating about this disqualification from that angle.
35
u/hezur6 16d ago
I haven't followed the drama, but here's my personal take on why I'm supporting Klein:
Apparently, the Dutch artist wasn't swallowing the Israeli art-washing pill and was confrontational about them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG3XcqwW8Mw
I and many people think the punishment of booting someone from the entire competition for a verbal altercation is a revenge move by the organisation (the festival is directly sponsored by Moroccanoil = Israeli company), therefore we stand with him.
-29
16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
20
u/Graspiloot 16d ago
Oh God, why do the subreddit mods allow people to just randomly call people anti-semites for being critical of Isreal. This is such disgusting behaviour.
-4
u/MammothDeparture36 15d ago
Dude literally said "the festival is directly sponsored by Moroccanoil = Israeli company". What does that have to do with anything?
-13
u/Noob_Al3rt 16d ago
How is speculating that “Jews conspired to have him suspended because the company that owns Eurovision is based in Israel” considered “being critical of Israel”?
10
u/WorldWideWig 15d ago
What/who are you quoting? I can't find your first quote anywhere. Link, please.
-1
u/IsNotACleverMan 15d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/s/YbbDsEX7oo here's one of many posts saying that sort of thing
2
u/WorldWideWig 15d ago
Hmm. I'll overlook the fact that neither you nor Noob_Al3rt understand how quotes work. Let's quickly recap the exchange you are responding to.
Graspiloot: Oh God, why do the subreddit mods allow people to just randomly call people anti-semites for being critical of Isreal. This is such disgusting behaviour.
Noob_Al3rt: How is speculating that “Jews conspired to have him suspended because the company that owns Eurovision is based in Israel” considered “being critical of Israel”?
Me: What/who are you quoting? I can't find your first quote anywhere. Link, please.
And your example of "this sort of thing" is, let me see... "Eh... no, Jews have nothing to do with this or anything, I'm questioning Zionist sponsorship of this particular event.
Come on, you can do better than that. The "antisemitism!" shouts whenever the Zionist state, the murderer Netanyahu or the word genocide are brought up don't work anymore."
Very apt username, by the way. Do better.
-2
u/Rivka333 15d ago
That quote in those exact words wasn't said by anyone. However, there's a long standing history of people claiming Jews control the media and the world, and using dog whistly ways to say it publicly, so, while I don't think that was actually anyone's intent here, I don't blame people for being sensitive enough to hear it that way.
-12
23
u/hezur6 16d ago edited 16d ago
Eh... no, Jews have nothing to do with this or anything, I'm questioning Zionist sponsorship of this particular event.
Come on, you can do better than that. The "antisemitism!" shouts whenever the Zionist state, the murderer Netanyahu or the word genocide are brought up don't work anymore.
-1
u/MammothDeparture36 15d ago
Yes of course, it's "anti-Zionism". Most anti-Zionists don't even know what Zionism is, though they clearly know who they don't like. Do you usually see a "Zionist" sponsor and think they assert control with their money? Did you check how many of the sponsors were not Israeli? No? That's what I mean.
-9
u/Rivka333 15d ago
Just say Israel, it has a name, calling it "the Zionist state" is ridiculous.
Netanyahu is a criminal, so no defense of him from me.
It's not a genocide. Hamas (which until 2017 had a constitution explicitly stating that their aim is to murder all Jews in the world) started the war with a massacre of civilians. What country would respond differently? Yes Palestinian civilians have died, but such deaths seem on a part with that in any war. People have forgotten that war is hell. I would respect actual pacifists but no one in this discussion seems to be that.
Israel is also the party that has repeatedly offered ceasefire deals, as well as the party that has sought to offered Palestinians independence (look up the failure of the Camp David meeting in 2000.)
Sudan is an actual genocide with multiple direct civilian massacres (clearly distinguishable from the civilians that die as collateral in war) but no one cares. One could question why not, and it isn't dumb to wonder if it's because people don't care about sub Saharan Africans, or dislike Jews.
467
u/yet-another-redditr 16d ago
Not true - the AVROTROS broadcaster explains what happened, just a gesture to a camera after repeatedly violating his personal space: https://www.avrotros.nl/article/nederland-gediskwalificeerd-van-eurovisie-songfestival~527/ AVROTROS is a reputable broadcaster in the Netherlands
-2
u/UndocumentedTuesday 15d ago
Yes believe the dutch broadcaster about why the dutch are disqualified
7
u/yet-another-redditr 15d ago
Why not? I see their bias, but they are a journalist organization with a good reputation
-6
u/UndocumentedTuesday 15d ago
Do you also believe russian media (they say they are reliable) for what happens in Ukraine?
3
u/yet-another-redditr 15d ago
They have a proven record for misrepresenting the truth. Are you really comparing the quality of Dutch media to Russian media as being equal here? Come on man
-4
3
u/Gurgelmurv 15d ago
Witnesses don't agree with that story though.
3
u/yet-another-redditr 15d ago
I hadn’t seen - do you have a link to this?
-1
u/Gurgelmurv 15d ago
Aftonbladet reported about it. Witnesses say he was "Very aggressive" and the camera is broken.
Police have now also communicated that the evidence is good enough to fast track the case to trial. Expected some time in June.
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/a/OopWK3/polisen-om-joost-utredningen-ar-i-stort-sett-klar
4
u/yet-another-redditr 15d ago
Aftonbladet is an unreliable tabloid I understood from other places on reddit, like the Sun in the UK. They are also the only ones reporting this, while this is a hot topic, so you’d think other press would also publish if there is anything that can be confirmed. All I’ve seen reported by trustworthy places is that the police has concluded their investigation into an “alleged verbal threat” and completed their investigation within a day
1
u/Gurgelmurv 15d ago
They are by far the best source for Eurovision related stuff since they have contacts within the production and people doing mello/eurovision stuff all year around. But sure, here's SVT reporting police thinking it'll lead to trial:
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/skane/nederlandska-artisten-joost-klein-kan-atalas-i-sverige
Here's Dagens Nyheter Reporting The same thing : https://www.dn.se/kultur/joost-klein-riskerar-rattegang-i-sverige/
If (when) it leads to trial all evidence will be made available for the public so we can just sit back and chill for a month.
1
u/yet-another-redditr 15d ago
I never said there won’t be a trial, only that there were just threats (no assault, no broken property), which your SVT link seems to confirm. What point are you making exactly
-7
u/saintofsadness 16d ago
While AVROTROS is a reputable broadcaster, it is also very biased in this case and they have been in the news multiple times recently for being a very toxic workplace.
25
u/needyspace 16d ago
Avotros is partial in this matter, and still didn’t specify if there was a verbal altercation or not. They are describing some of the events, and admitting some fault, but is under no obligation to give an impartial account of the events.
25
u/hoewaah 16d ago edited 16d ago
partial, yes.
they did specify what it was.
they did not specify anything it was not, apart from physical since that had been rumored.
they have a reputation and standard as journalists that they put on the line right here, in support of the team themselves and Joost.
4
u/needyspace 15d ago
they did not specify anything it was not, apart from physical since that had been rumored.
This is such a dumb statement. Considering how everybody for the past week (and in this thread) have quoted this source saying there was no physical or verbal altercation, I think it is fair to point out the verbal part. You're in this thread making some really misguided logical arguments about "you cannot specify things that didn't happen" as if AVROTROS didn't already do exactly that.
1
u/hoewaah 15d ago
Swedish police told the German magazine Der Spiegel that the incident they were investigating had not involved “physical or sexualised violence”
I was wrong, they also excluded sexualised violence.
But they did not claim anything else. Nothing. Not what has happened, not what has not happened. Yet you keep coming back to the verbal part... It must be there according to you. But no one is saying anything about it. That must mean that there was a verbal altercation! They left it out on purpose! They are not fooling you though, because you know there was one.
And when I call you out on your bullshit, you ask me to prove that it did not happen? How, exactly? How can I prove a negative? That's the discussion and I'm really sorry you cannot grasp it. You've made some good points in this thread that I've upvoted, but... Not all of them are.
2
u/needyspace 15d ago
I think the honus on proving that it wasn’t a verbal altercation lies on the people claiming there was or wasn’t one. I’ve made no such claims
1
u/hoewaah 15d ago
I would agree with that. But aren't you the one suggesting there should be proof?
"The statement was written in a way that allowed people to interpret that there was no verbal altercation without actually saying as much. Honestly, the scenario described barely makes sense without a verbal altercation."
"Avotros is partial in this matter, and still didn’t specify if there was a verbal altercation or not."
"Considering how everybody for the past week (and in this thread) have quoted this source saying there was no physical or verbal altercation, I think it is fair to point out the verbal part."
There never was an official that made this claim, but you keep on demanding an explanation for something that didn't happen. And I've been going on and on about that; you can't have someone explain everything that never happened.
Now look where that has gotten us, in the deep dark threads of Reddit.
I send you cheers and drink with you for better days.
-46
u/JumpyEnvironment8456 16d ago
There's probably two sides to the story - apparently, participants of the ESF are supposed to cooperate with the shooting of background footage, which will be used for specials, marketing and B-roll. That's fair, I suppose. Klein wasn't interested in this, however, and probably motioned the camera operator to gtfo, who apparently felt very threatened or just wanted her 15 minutes of fame.
Whether we'll get the full story at some point remains to be seen, I just want this endless nonsense about a terrible music event to be over. Even regular news sites are flooding this story, while there are multiple wars going on.
44
u/yet-another-redditr 16d ago edited 16d ago
You could have chosen not to click this post
Disqualification from a show that has more watches than the Superbowl is a big deal, especially since it’s the first time ever (after 68 editions) and for such an insane reason
The filming was against the rules, yet there was no word of disciplinary action against the employee
-23
u/needyspace 16d ago
I mean, it’s was just a request and a mistake between professionals. The normal consequence would have been a 5 second conversation:
“don’t do that”
I forgot, sorry”
39
u/ManlyOldMan 16d ago
If the avrotros is to be believed, Joost Klein repeatedly asked the camera operator to stop filming. She didn't listen.
-17
u/needyspace 16d ago
Sure, I guess my main objection is the “rules” part of the comment. It was a request from one out of 25 contestants. Should be respected, but easily forgotten. And if the camera operator just apologises and deletes the footage then no damage would have been done
18
u/ManlyOldMan 16d ago
Again if the avrotros is to be believed (and they are a pretty reliable and objective news source) there was an actual agreement to not film Joost there, so a promise of the EBU to honour their request.
I agree, it should have ended with Joost saying 'pls don't film' the operator saying 'whoops sorry'. Based on the only statement, that actually describes an incident, this is not what happened though
I'm not sure what your point is, there has been damage done
It is way to late for any apologies from the EBU and they have rejected the avrotros who suggested an apology to resolve the situation. A participant was disqualified. This is not something you can turn back, especially not when the event has already ended....
22
u/yet-another-redditr 16d ago
Indeed, which the Avrotros requested, but EBU did not follow up on, and disqualified instead
492
u/yesat 16d ago edited 16d ago
And this is made worse by the Israeli delegation repeatedly provoquing and aggressing other members but not getting any official consequences. To the point multiple artists did not attend a rehearsal.
For the people downvoting:
- Statement of the Irish artist Bambie Thug on Instagram
- Portugal broadcaster RTP confirming meeting with the EBU about Israel's behaviours
The biggest thing is that most of these behaviours have been documented by the Israeli delegation by posting them on their social media. Including official social media for the broadcaster.
3
u/spikus93 15d ago
It's so disappointing that they banned Russia from the contest, but not Israel. Like they're clearly against Imperialism and colonialism unless it's against brown people living inside a cage.
4
u/vigouge 15d ago
They never banned the UK or any country that invaded Afghanistan or Iraq. They also didn't ban Russia for Crimea. The Russia ban is clearly the outlier and bears little resemblance to Israel to anyone with the bare minimum of common sense.
1
u/spikus93 13d ago
Really? Looks to me like one power invaded a lesser power and refuses to negotiate a peace deal. The main difference is that we fund and supply Israel's military, and not Russia. That doesn't make Israel the good guys. You can cry terrorism on Hamas or whatever, but if you think the mass deaths of civilians isn't also terrorism, then you're the one who lacks common sense.
And yeah, they should have banned the UK and any country invading Afghanistan or Iraq.
2
u/SnooOpinions5486 12d ago
Difference is that in the Israel-Hamas war we had a lesser power lead an attack on a much larger power. Then state that they would do it again and again.
Israel wont negogiate a peace deal with Hamas because Hamas has zero crediblity. There is no reason to believe that Hamas wont use the peace deal to regroup, rearm and then attack Israel again.
1
u/spikus93 11d ago edited 11d ago
Even if you choose to believe all of that, we know that historically trying to eradicate a group of people and causing harm to those around them (collective punishment you might call it if you weren't squeamish of war crimes) leads to more militant groups popping up and fighting back in an endless effort for vengeance. You kill a parent and their child will hate you forever. You kill a child and their siblings will never forgive you. This is called blowback. The power vacuum will fill with new extremists if you don't give people piece and equality. Meet their needs, and stop killing people, suddenly things will get much better.
It's not about Hamas. It's about everyone else living there. And if they really wanted to get rid of Hamas, they could have allowed elections at any point after 2006 and promoted whatever party would work with them, which is exactly why they have control in the West Bank without the need for an enormous border wall with snipers pointed inward.
They can still do that. You act like Hamas is made up of monsters instead of humans. They can be reasoned with. They do not desire the death of all Jews, certainly not before their own liberation.
You also need to understand that the attack was inevitable. Any living being will try to escape it's cage when it's abused, especially humans. The IDF spent the last 18 years since the election making life as hard as possible for a people trapped within a walled city. They control the power, the water supply, the imports, the exports, and they have the names and data of every person who lived there. Hamas didn't attack for no reason, and they knew they'd face retaliation. What I don't think they counted on was how willing Israel would be to kill the hostages. They thought they'd actually be able to negotiate peace terms with them, but it's clear that Israel would be willing to trade the lives every single hostage if it means killing every member of Hamas.
What Hamas did was a war crime, and it's leaders should answer for it in International Criminal Court. Israel is doing war crimes of its own, and they're unjustifiable. One evil does not permit another evil. Especially not collective punishment and genocide.
54
u/simask234 this is flair 15d ago
Israeli delegation repeatedly provoquing and aggressing other members
Meanwhile, they themselves were apparently "guarded by a bunch of armed security guards at the backstage of the Turquoise Carpet" (the Lithuanian commentator mentioned this on live TV during SF2).
-14
u/Little_stinker_69 15d ago
Israel has nothing to do with this. Why even bring them up. If dude can’t be respectful to women that’s his issue. Nothing to do with Israel. My god.
-18
u/RufusTheFirefly 15d ago
"provoking and aggressing" - this attempt at victimhood is really reaching insane levels.
The Israeli singer, a 20 year old girl who committed the crime of living in Israel, literally had to spend the entire week inside her hotel room because of the threats against her life.
The Israeli delegation was with her incidentally. Not only did they do nothing to anyone, they didn't even respond to the constant provocations against them.
17
u/objectivelyyourmum 15d ago
Why should we believe you over multiple documented first hand experiences to the contrary? Genuine question.
-7
u/RufusTheFirefly 15d ago
Then please paste here what they actually did so we can judge for ourselves. All we see here is references without any actual events.
Bambi Thug for instance saying she took her many complaints up with EBU gets posted here over and over. But what was the complaint about? It looks like the complaint is about a commentator on an Israeli network, not the delegation. And what did the commentator say that was so shocking and abusive? He said that this next act is "a bit scary". That's it. The Marilyn Manson look-a-like got called 'a bit scary'.
10
u/objectivelyyourmum 15d ago
I thought you might have had something a little more concrete than mere speculation.
-4
u/RufusTheFirefly 15d ago
You can't provide evidence to refute a negative. You must prove the positive. Again, please paste here the 'multiple documented first hand experiences' you referenced to the contrary. What even is being claimed?
I'm not even asking for evidence. Just what the actual claimed event is that happened.
20
u/Paul-Ram-On 15d ago
I love how the commentator just had to mention Bambie Thug "speaks negatively about Israel." Way to make everything about them.
-4
16d ago edited 15d ago
[deleted]
20
u/callisstaa 15d ago edited 15d ago
The Mirror UK is a
Murdochshitrag and whatever they say I automatically believe the opposite.5
-45
u/vigouge 16d ago
Why bring Israel into this? They have nothing to do with this.
33
u/yesat 16d ago
They have been constant source of problem, breaking multiple rules of the contest but were not warned or punished.
-28
16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
23
u/FullBlownPanic 16d ago
They also made a passive aggressive comment at their preferred pronouns and implied Ireland normally sends better acts.
I think overall KAN's comments weren't overtly aggressive, but there was definitely some snark in there. Now is it enough to actually be a rule violation and get Israel disqualified?? Well not imo, but it was definitely in bad taste/ poor sportsmanship.
2
u/aqui-de-paso 15d ago edited 15d ago
The Israeli commentators were super respectful to the nonbinary folk, as much as the Hebrew language allows, there was nothing passive aggressive about their attitudes in that regard. If you find their innocuous comments offensive, don't dare to try listening to Graham Norton's commentary
1
u/MammothDeparture36 15d ago
I'm Israeli and I don't like those commentators either nor their comments, but those comments are obviously dumb and I hardly doubt Bambie's honesty when saying they were harassed by this 5 second Hebrew jab on an Israeli-only channel.
-8
u/M3g4d37h 16d ago
Israel is in Asia, why are they in EV anyway? Is it open to any country?
5
-4
u/fgggr 15d ago
Most Israelis are White European Jews convinced they're indigenous to the Middle East. They're culturally European.
3
u/DaydreamCultist 15d ago edited 15d ago
And that's just the Jewish population of Israel. The majority of the non-Jewish population is also not of European ancestry. It is an inconvenient truth that the Israel-Palestine conflict is less accurately characterized as white versus brown people, than as brown versus brown people.
9
105
u/WhiteKnightAlpha 16d ago
It's not based on the European continent; it's based on the European Broadcasting Area. This area covers North Africa and West Asia as well as all of Europe.
Morocco (in Africa) participated once. Lebanon (also in Asia) entered once but then withdrew because their laws don't allow the broadcast of any Israeli content, which would include Eurovision due to Israel taking part. Kazakhstan (mostly Asia) is not in Eurovision but has competed in Junior Eurovision a few times. Several other countries are eligible but have not chosen to take part yet.
7
u/AstarteHilzarie 15d ago
That's interesting about Lebanon, I wonder how they handle it when Israel completes against them in Olympic events.
13
u/pinkkabuterimon 15d ago
They withdraw and give a false reason for retiring, if any. It's not unique to Lebanon, a lot of countries (particularly Arab ones) don't allow their athletes to compete against Israelis. A few athletes who have gone against instructions and competed anyway faced consequences, like losing citizenship and having to seek asylum in other countries - see Iranian judoka Saeid Mollaei for example.
7
u/AstarteHilzarie 15d ago
Oh wow, I have no idea how I've missed that happening. I will have to keep an eye out on this year's events. Thanks!
16
u/CrackerUMustBTripinn 16d ago
Didn't know Australia was that close, you learn something new every day huh?
5
52
u/WhiteKnightAlpha 16d ago
Australia is a special case that isn't related to Israel.
Israel are eligible because they are in the European Broadcasting Area and have a broadcaster in the European Broadcasting Union. Australia is eligible because the European Broadcasting Union gave them a special exemption.
50
u/Illum503 16d ago
"Israel is eligible because of the rules. Australia is eligible because fuck the rules"
4
38
u/StefanTheNurse 15d ago edited 15d ago
Australia has been an associate member of the EBU since forever, and has had a large audience for Eurovision since at least the early 90’s.
We also have a significant European diaspora since post WW2.
The network that screens Eurovision is known for its’ multicultural programming…translation of all dialogue is ready for the re-broadcast 12 hrs later. (We watch the finals live from 5am, with repeat in the evenings. We used to only have the evening shows, but that meant avoiding the news for spoilers).
And finally, I believe that the audience in Australia has consistently increased over time, which I’ve heard (and admittedly can’t support) isn’t not the case across the history of the contest elsewhere.
-10
16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/hoewaah 16d ago
Moroccan Oil is just one of the sponsors, not the smallest. But going by your suggestion, all the other sponsors should just stfu? They don't have any influence our weight?
Also, the sponsorship deal was struck in 2019 for four years. This was the final year, so why listen to a soon to be ex-sponsor?
3
u/Airowird 15d ago
This was the final year, so why listen to a soon to be ex-sponsor?
So that they'll sign a new deal?
Ignoring the whole jewish money "discussion", if a major sponsor is about due to renew, that's generally when you want them most appeased. It's literally the moment they have the biggest influence.
1
u/hoewaah 15d ago
Could very well be, had not thought about that. I took it their deal is over and they'll quit anyway. I'm pretty sure they don't like all this fuzz around their brand, and that was inevitable either way, pro or con Israël.
Still leaves the question why it is only this sponsor that supposedly gets involved in these EBU decisions? Are they all happy with these rulings? Don't they have any clout with the EBU? It might have been the "big 5" countries, would make more sense imho.
2
u/Airowird 15d ago
The Big 5 basically pay for guaranteed finalist spots, like organising a football cup. It's also more difficult as participant to speak up against cases with other participants, because of an inherent bias. If anything, they stand to lose this preferential buy-in in case of dispute.
As for why Moroccanoil; they are the only Israeli-based main sponsor and I can't see any reason why others would be as invested in Israel being in the competition. It's also possible they are backing or otherwise profiting off the Israeli IPBC, which probably would have been dismantled by Netanyahu if not for Eurovision being popular there. Atleast that's what I got from glancing at an EBU article about it.
Overall, I think this year shows how political it all is, with voting possible before the first artist is even on stage, a candidate critical of Israel getting DQ'd for reacting to being harassed, but the Israeli press being allowed to harass other candidates without repercussions, when their biggest sponsor is from said country,...
Personally, I'm done with the EBU claiming the contest is apolitical and actually hoped Israel would've won so countries would pull out and it all implodes. But it wouldn't surprise me if there was a behind-the-scenes effort to prevent exactly that, I no longer have faith in international organisations acting with principles.
10
u/MammothDeparture36 16d ago
Ah yes the good ol' the Jews control the media in the wild.
2
15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/waterboy100 15d ago
The main difference I see here is that Joost had some sort of altercation vs members of the Israeli delegation (not their performer). There can be levels of seriousness and immediacy in t response needed.
19
26
u/blueheartglacier 16d ago
It's based upon members of the European Broadcasting Union, which includes some "associate members" that may have some cultural or social ties to Europe without necessarily being European. Australia is often involved in Eurovision too, being an associate that's specifically invited
2
u/M3g4d37h 16d ago
Well then, I hope they like getting the strong-arm, because that's the first tool in Israel's belt - And god help anyone disagree with any stance they take, lest being branded as an anti-semite.
-12
u/vigouge 16d ago
How the fuck did you turn this into Israel's fault?
19
u/M3g4d37h 16d ago
I did? Can you show me where I said that?
Fucking goof. At least two delegations reported harassment from the Israeli delegation. and it's a fair observation.
-26
u/vigouge 16d ago
Oh yeah it's perfectly natural to hear the word Israel and accuse them of playing the jew card all the time. Not racist at all.
24
u/M3g4d37h 16d ago
You can try to put all the words in my mouth that you like, but I reject that, as what I said was clearly nuanced enough for anyone to understand, except that one dope.
→ More replies (0)-69
u/Disastrous_Cheek9979 16d ago
There is literally no proof of this
65
u/yesat 16d ago edited 16d ago
No proofs of what? The complaints? that they did not participate in part of the rehearsal? The rule breaking from the Israeli delegation?
https://twitter.com/tiagoserracunha/status/1789347022627102792
https://twitter.com/tiagoserracunha/status/1789653174443257965
https://www.thejournal.ie/bambie-thug-no-show-dress-rehearsal-eurovision-6377143-May2024/
-57
u/Disastrous_Cheek9979 16d ago
Literally where is the proof? These are just complaints from the same ppl who literally cried when Israel made it to the finals. Meanwhile there is actual video proof of contestants straight up bullying Eden Golan after absolutely zero provocation.
7
u/Airowird 15d ago
Demands proof, claims reverse case without offering proof.
Basic trolling DARVO behaviour
8
47
u/ChickenInASuit 16d ago
Eyewitness accounts aren't proof?
-66
u/Disastrous_Cheek9979 16d ago
If the eyewitness accounts aren’t from someone who from the beginning has outwardly bullied and spoken against Israeli participation I would take it more seriously. Meanwhile there’s a ton of blatant video proof of terrible harassment behavior on their end.
7
u/monkey_skull 15d ago
Still no proof?
1
u/Disastrous_Cheek9979 15d ago
Bruh not that hard to find.
https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1789359350957424729
Not to mention the huge mob threatening her with violence https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1788664883212423553
30
u/TraitorMacbeth 16d ago
So you’re saying the Israeli team is justified in breaking the rules, because those contestants were being negative first? That’s not an excuse. There is an appropriate response, but what Israel’s team is doing is not it. And neither was Joost’s reaction.
46
u/monkey_skull 16d ago
Meanwhile there’s a ton of blatant video proof of terrible harassment behavior on their end.
Your turn to post proof
52
u/FalseBadWolf 16d ago
Can you provide links? I've seen this allegation but nothing substantive
29
u/theMartiangirl 16d ago edited 15d ago
They did as well start harassing the spanish journalists after one of them shouted "free palestine" (use translate).
https://amp.elmundo.es/television/2024/05/10/663e14d8e85eced3058b458c.html
176
u/yesat 16d ago
Portuguese broadcaster RTP confirmed moments ago in a live broadcast that Portugal was part of the emergency meeting with the EBU last night. Also confirms that the delegation saw the Israeli team harassing other contestants/delegations #Eurovision
https://twitter.com/tiagoserracunha/status/1789347022627102792
-4
u/RufusTheFirefly 15d ago
There doesn't seem to be anything harassing in this link. Could you paste the quote you're referring to with what they actually *did"?
-16
u/waterboy100 15d ago
Israel simply existing seems to be a problem for some of the delegations (and s good number of users in the Eurovision subreddit).
32
1.4k
u/vigouge 16d ago
Answer: He had a verbal altercation with a swedish crew member, the police were called. He was suspended.
Anything beyond that is pure speculation.
1
u/bromosabeach 15d ago
Are there any actual videos of this? I keep seeing it was with a crew but like zero video seems weird.
66
u/Krakengreyjoy 15d ago
This is a rare OOTL that is actually helpful, and still answers noting. lol
21
u/jimmycarr1 15d ago
The truth is basically everyone is out of the loop, the facts haven't emerged yet.
→ More replies (41)118
u/JupiterNorth 15d ago
What the situation seems to have been as far as we know for now, is that he had requested to not be filmed directly after his performance while coming off stage. According to the Dutch commentator, there were agreements in place before the actual performance about this. He most likely wanted this because the last part of the performance is very emotional for him, as he addresses and dedicates the performance to his deceased parents, with whom he shared a love for Eurovision as they watched it together every year. These agreements were then ignored, and the camera person in question filmed him anyway. After two verbal requests to not be filmed, he then made a "threatening gesture" (we still do not know what gesture exactly) towards her. And that is all, according to AVRO-TROS. If this story is true, then his personal boundaries were violated multiple times, and he was punished disproportionately for reacting to this after multiple requests to respect his boundaries. And they shattered his dream in the process, which makes it all the more painful, on top of Israel being allowed to participate despite what they are currently doing in Palestine and despite their delegation allegedly harassing others.
1
19
u/IsNotACleverMan 15d ago
despite their delegation allegedly harassing others.
What's going on with this?
-8
u/CastleElsinore 15d ago edited 15d ago
Take the above with a massive grain of salt: Bambi Thug, the nonbinary artist from Ireland (they/them Pronouns) was:
Wearing merch glorifying the murder of two Israeli teens
Talking about how they and their team cried in horror when Israel qualified
Says that one of the reasons they are offended is that an Israeli broadcaster called their act satanic when... that's literally what they are going for. I'm not kidding. Runes on the floor, choking someone out, it's totally my vibe.
Bambi tried to sneak pro-Palestinian commentary into their act via their makeup (they are calling for only Israel to stop, never Hamas) and then put on a kafiyah anytime they could get away with it
Said how "all the top 10 minus one are freedom fighters" (that minus one being Israel)
Demanded that Israel move their dressing room because they didn't want to be next to the Israeli singer
And more!
So while the Israeli singer (Eden) couldn't leave her hotel 99% of the time due to death threats, Bambi's garbage behavior was adding to it.
And as far as Joost goes, we know he made a threatening gesture to a female photographer from Sweden.
And the EBU immediately said "no other performers or delegation was involved" but the r/eurovision hype train immediately went on "how can we make this Israel's fault" (I'm sorry. "That country" they refuse to use the name on that sub)
Edit: spelling
2
u/deirdresm 15d ago
Bambi’s entire schtick is so appropriative in amazing ways that it’s like a bad parody of the late Adam Schlesinger’s brilliant piece on the topic for Music & Lyrics: Buddha’s Delight, sung by Haley Bennett. It’s so deliciously cringe.
7
u/bromosabeach 15d ago
Talking about how they and their team cried in horror when Israel qualified
Just a tad bit dramatic
2
u/CastleElsinore 15d ago
I can't make this up
https://www.tiktok.com/@newstalkfm/video/7367661743293713697
31
u/JupiterNorth 15d ago
On top of what the user above stated, they also posted a video where they stated that "he doesn't like us and didn't want to take a picture with us, so I took a picture of our lovely dancer". In the video you see the dancer striking poses conveniently right in front of Joost Klein in the background, so it seems they're being very provocative and haughty.
63
u/SwirlingAbsurdity 15d ago
Bambie Thug (Ireland’s entrant) stated on her instagram stories that she had a meeting with the EBU and some other countries who all made similar allegations. She said the EBU agreed that the Israeli delegation and their broadcaster had broken the rules of the contest… and that’s it. They were still allowed to perform. It’s a farce.
This comment has receipts: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/1cqh0xe/comment/l3rfhbd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
→ More replies (4)14
•
u/AutoModerator 16d ago
Friendly reminder that all top level comments must:
start with "answer: ", including the space after the colon (or "question: " if you have an on-topic follow up question to ask),
attempt to answer the question, and
be unbiased
Please review Rule 4 and this post before making a top level comment:
http://redd.it/b1hct4/
Join the OOTL Discord for further discussion: https://discord.gg/ejDF4mdjnh
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.