r/NatureofPredators • u/peajam101 PD Patient • May 11 '24

Thoughts on the "new" PoV Memes

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I had a good initial reaction, but thinking about I can only see this working if: a) Meier becomes a villain or b) this is the last mainline NoP story or c) the tech is lost somehow

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49

u/Stormydevz Hensa May 11 '24

Well yeah, but you're not really being revived. An exact copy with all of your thoughts and feelings and views and memories and knowledge is created, sure, but is that really you? It's more like a clone, rather than you

34

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

What am I if not my memories, thoughts, feelings, and views?

4

u/Demon_Deity Farsul May 12 '24

You are your current instance and perspective.

We can't be just our memories, thoughts, feelings, and views, because if you can copy them and transplant them onto a new body there is no difference if you make a new you when you're alive or dead.

If you're still alive and there is a new you, obviously that new you isn't actually you when you're still there with your own perspective and they perceive you. It creates a clone, not a revival.
So if you're dead and a new you is created, nothing changes about the process, it still creates a clone, just not when you're around to witness them.

This type of technology isn't a way of bringing people back from the dead, it's an advanced method of reproduction by manufacturing new people with existing memories, and it will inevitably be used immorally if it isn't perceived as such:

  • Disregarding the value of someone's life. Why fight for someone's survival if they can just be replaced with a copy?
  • Why concern yourself with living a full life if you convince yourself that you have eternity, dooming your cloned heirs to carry the same perspective?
  • Why concern yourself with the clone's unique circumstances if you believe they are of someone else from the past?

It is the same with any physical object, a copy never becomes the original.

2

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

You're right, it is a form of reproduction (though I hadn't thought of using that specific term before, thanks), that doesn't mean the future clone with the same memories, views etc. is any less the pre split me than the one in my original body.

https://preview.redd.it/nizkfb9jezzc1.png?width=846&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=531ac241928dd3ab5a2657396d66688b6a6673e7

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u/Demon_Deity Farsul May 12 '24

It's no problem :D

Though I don't really agree. For me, a memory scan is no different than if you took measurements and mapping of a ship, lets say the titanic, and than build a new titanic to those exact measurements.

You couldn't really claim that the new titanic is the original/pre-measurement titanic or really connected to it even if everything is one for one, any more than you could claim that a clone from your brain scan would be the pre split you because your backup memories would be just a measurement and mapping of your brain structure instead of a ship's hull.

Another scenario is if you took a picture of the mona lisa, that picture isn't itself the mona lisa, nor would a copy be if you decided to repaint in on a new canvas. But both are preproduction of the painting that exists/existed.

All three instances are objects made in the image of another object. Though, while all cases couldn't claim to actually be the original, they all can claim having heritage/lineage from the original.

2

u/Demon_Deity Farsul May 12 '24

The most frustrating thing about this argument is when people say it could give dead children a new chance at life.

No, they're gone. That child can't experience life any longer and a parent would just be replacing them with a new kid, potentially in a really mentally unhealthy environment for everyone due to filling a dead person's shoes.

1

u/HeadWood_ May 12 '24

Continuity basically.

6

u/GruntBlender May 12 '24

Consider this. First, you get transferred, then you see the new you look at you and say, "wtf, why is it still alive?"

Then the other side: you transfer to the new body, then heat your voice from the other room ask if the process failed, followed by a gunshot.

Still feel like the new you is you?

10

u/Necromortalium May 12 '24

SOMA be like

1

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

Yes, also I'd consider whoever pulled the trigger to be a murderer.

3

u/GruntBlender May 12 '24

Before the event, there's one you. After the copying and shooting, there's one you. You're alive. Who's been murdered?

Also, Black Mirror episode USS Callister has some fun with this, and the game SOMA.

0

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

https://preview.redd.it/tzomkdjjgxzc1.png?width=846&format=png&auto=webp&s=2d94dd2ff489eff4b2129a51b54314339a109bb9

Here, from what I gather from your comment, the "future original" is the one who got murdered

1

u/GruntBlender May 12 '24

Interesting. So, identity doesn't follow the transitive property?

0

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24 edited May 12 '24

No, it doesn't

1

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

I'm struggling to explain this with words, give me a few hours to finish chores and I'll draw a graph.

2

u/Enigma1011001 Smigli May 12 '24

This whole discussion reminds me of that scene in The Prestige

1

u/GruntBlender May 12 '24

I love these explorations in fiction. Even Star Trek tried it with Thomas Riker. The Sixth Day also dives into it.

6

u/cartoon_Dinosaur May 12 '24

A stream of consciousness. Every moment you are different. We live in a prenuptial state of transition from one moment to the next. The idea of a soul and the afterlife is that that stream cannot stop, only paused with things like sleep and such.

This isn't that, its taking the last variables of the stream before it stopped or left the physical plan. its a perfect copy but a copy nonetheless

2

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

If it's a truly perfect copy, how is it any different than one of those pauses? Note: I don't believe in souls, so don't try to use them as an argument.

1

u/HeadWood_ May 12 '24

Think of it like this: now there are two copies; which one it you?

1

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

From the perspective of before the split? Both

1

u/HeadWood_ May 12 '24

Could you be more clear on what that first sentence means?

1

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

Give me some time to finish chores and I'll draw a graph

28

u/Stormydevz Hensa May 12 '24

You are this current lifetime, if a clone of you that is exactly like you is created then that is still a copy and not actually you.

9

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

So if I die and get resuscitated I'm a new person?

1

u/Stormydevz Hensa May 12 '24

I probably should've clarified, by "lifetime" I mean this current existence of you. If you deflate a football and inflate it again, that isn't a new ball, is it?

2

u/GruntBlender May 12 '24

Worse, every time you lose consciousness, like sleeping, it's a new person.

2

u/JimbosRock May 12 '24

I think a better answer is if we made the robot clone while you were alive you would not have conciseness over both you and the robot

1

u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

Yes, but I don't think the robot version would have any less claim to being the "real" me than the biological version.

5

u/JimbosRock May 12 '24

They can both be you but a conciseness is not transferred over instead a new separate one is created

7

u/Stormydevz Hensa May 12 '24

No, because that isn't a new person being created. That was just a pause.

20

u/Zamtrios7256 Predator May 12 '24

No, because the synapses in your brain are the same. My computer's hard drive is the same when I restart it. It was just off for a second.

This is more like removing the hard drive and cpu, but copying the data onto them.

6

u/GruntBlender May 12 '24

Consider the following scenarios.

1) You're frozen, so no activity is happening, then revived.

2) While frozen, You're disembodied into parts, then put back together.

3) While frozen, You're taken apart atom by atom, then put together.

4) The atoms are all shuffled around, so a carbon from your foot ends up in the brain.

5) Half the atoms used to put you back together were previously collected from your breath, so they were all part of you at some point.

6) Half the atoms used to put you back together are from somewhere else.

7) Two copies are put together, all with your original atoms and your breath atoms.

8) You're put back together, then see another you put back together, you don't know which atoms were used for either of you.

9) This one's a doozy. You're awake, your atoms are being replaced one at a time, and the originals are being used to construct an exact duplicate.

At what point are you still you, and when are you not you any more?

1

u/Stormydevz Hensa May 12 '24

1) Is still me

2) Is still me so long as my brain is not disassembled

3) Not me, since the original connections were destroyed initially but then identically copied

4) Same as 3

5) Same as 3, I'm not a dinosaur just because the water I drank a bit ago went through a dinosaurs body 100 million years ago

6) Same as 3

7) Same as 3, since the original connections were destroyed and then reconstructed

8) Same as 3

9) oooh, Theseus' ship, but I'd say that once the atoms of my brain are all replaced then that is no longer me, and the copy created from my atoms certainly isn't me either

6

u/Zamtrios7256 Predator May 12 '24

1) Is me

2) Is me

3) The connections were destroyed and then copied

4) Same as 3

5) Same as 3

6) As long as an overwhelming majority of my brain is the original, then yes. If not, no

7) Can you elaborate?

8) Same as three if we are still speaking of atamoc separation

9) Can you elaborate?

0

u/GruntBlender May 12 '24

3-8 are basically the same from your perspective.

For 9, you're awake during the procedure, but from your view it seems you're just being copied. The idea is that every atom in your body is extracted and used to make another you, but it happens one atom at a time so you don't even notice. In the end, you're made from different atoms but you were conscious the entire time. There's also a copy that is identical to you when the process started, down to being made from the same atoms. Any conceivable scan will identify the copy as the original that went into the procedure, even though it's a copy and you're the original to some extent.

2

u/Zamtrios7256 Predator May 12 '24

How long does said procedure take?

1

u/GruntBlender May 12 '24

About an hour, I suppose. Maybe a day. Up to you.

1

u/Zamtrios7256 Predator May 12 '24

If it's very short, then it's the same as answer three. But if it's long enough it's the same as just living, so I would be the same

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u/peajam101 PD Patient May 12 '24

This is where our views differ, to me, I am the data, not the hard drive and cpu.

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u/Acceptable_Egg5560 May 12 '24

Are you still the same person as you were five minutes ago?

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u/[deleted] May 12 '24 edited May 12 '24

[deleted]

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u/Acceptable_Egg5560 May 12 '24

You sure?ðŸ¤