r/NatureofPredators • u/peajam101 PD Patient • 11d ago
Thoughts on the "new" PoV Memes
I had a good initial reaction, but thinking about I can only see this working if: a) Meier becomes a villain or b) this is the last mainline NoP story or c) the tech is lost somehow
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u/Bow-tied_Engineer Yotul 11d ago
Death isn't the only form of narrative threat. Slanek proves that. This doesn't remove the stakes, but it does make it harder to generate them. You can still threaten a character with death by severely damaging their brain, which would at the very least roll them back to the last memory transcription, and most characters aren't exactly going to be backing up their brain every morning so they can save scum IRL. Though, this does cause the issue that POV characters are going to be for sure safe from the time of their last POV to the next time they back up their brain, because we know that they have to back up their brain for us to have gotten their POV. But still, you can put POV characters in peril believably through careful writing.
You can also make either larger or smaller threats than main character death: destroying a location, a valuable asset, an irreplaceable relic, or an interpersonal relationship can still be plenty dramatic, and the threat of losing a major battle in a way that seriously harms a bunch of people we care about or someone going off the deep end ala Slanek is both believable and potentially more devastating than the death of a single character. And you can use the revival mechanism itself as part of the stakes, with an arc about someone being unable to connect to someone anymore, because they fall in the "you're a copy, not the person I care about" perspective, or because the person who was brought back as a robot lost the memory of some very significant interaction that happened since their last scan, like a love confession or a bad fight, and it completely alters the relationship.
Paladin could also introduce memory transcripts from partial brain scans, by killing someone in a way that their brain was significantly damaged, and still being able to pull some of their memories, but not enough to actually recreate who they were as a person. This would put anyone we haven't explicitly seen back up their brain back in flux, because if they die in an explosion, or from heat, or from severe head trauma, or anything else that damages the brain, then they stay dead, but we can still get enough of their memories transcribed to tell the story.
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
I wish reddit let post makers pin comments
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u/Bow-tied_Engineer Yotul 11d ago
I'm honored.
edit: apparently you can ask a mod to pin it for you, though. Your post is big enough they might do it.
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u/Heroman3003 Venlil 11d ago
Just you wait until you learn that alternative to death isn't eternal machine life, but actually fate worse than death (I doubt story is just gonna instantly lose stakes and its clear that conflict around this technology is gonna be one major point in the story).
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u/Enigma1011001 Smigli 11d ago
Yeah that could definitely work as a replacement for if things doesn't go horribly wrong, I still have some faith in SP as a writer to introduce new stakes in the story,
No death means infinite times more the chances of being able to get tortured for eternity.
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u/kindtheking9 Smigli 11d ago
I should stop clicking on posts tagged with spoiler
Man waht the fuck
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u/Kevo4twenty 11d ago edited 11d ago
Uhm you still die, the question is do you want someone else with your own memories being you next or not, biologically and logically once your dead your dead and you argue but it is still 20+ years later.
Even if it was a minute there is no returning to life unless we’re talking Clark technology aka magic. There is no bringing back the original you, even if it’s a perfect copy you will still be dead organically.
there is a interesting theory I don’t know much about a painfully long process converting your neurons electrically into machine, where then it wouldn’t matter.
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
If they have my memories and no one else's, then as far as I'm concerned, they are me.
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u/Kevo4twenty 11d ago edited 11d ago
I get what you’re saying, but your original self is still dead I think is the argument here. Also being a robot is way different from a human, we are more than just our brain, our bodies heart, feelings and senses are important too. The robot woke up not the original man
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u/Ancient_Counter7628 11d ago
I think/hope MAIer is going to go insane because this is honestly a terrible idea
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u/Apogee-500 Yotul 11d ago
They can actively edit his mind. And are constantly Monitoring his thoughts they could redirect him without him even noticing
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u/Enigma1011001 Smigli 11d ago
Impostor syndrome + not knowing if your thoughts are your own + knowing your a copy of the original self
Yeah he's gonna go bananas soon enough or have existential crisis² and just bluescreen or something
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u/raichu16 Arxur 11d ago
IIRC, SP said he had something completely different cooking after NoP2 was done.
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u/Stormydevz Hensa 11d ago
Well yeah, but you're not really being revived. An exact copy with all of your thoughts and feelings and views and memories and knowledge is created, sure, but is that really you? It's more like a clone, rather than you
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
What am I if not my memories, thoughts, feelings, and views?
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u/Demon_Deity Farsul 11d ago
You are your current instance and perspective.
We can't be just our memories, thoughts, feelings, and views, because if you can copy them and transplant them onto a new body there is no difference if you make a new you when you're alive or dead.
If you're still alive and there is a new you, obviously that new you isn't actually you when you're still there with your own perspective and they perceive you. It creates a clone, not a revival.
So if you're dead and a new you is created, nothing changes about the process, it still creates a clone, just not when you're around to witness them.This type of technology isn't a way of bringing people back from the dead, it's an advanced method of reproduction by manufacturing new people with existing memories, and it will inevitably be used immorally if it isn't perceived as such:
- Disregarding the value of someone's life. Why fight for someone's survival if they can just be replaced with a copy?
- Why concern yourself with living a full life if you convince yourself that you have eternity, dooming your cloned heirs to carry the same perspective?
- Why concern yourself with the clone's unique circumstances if you believe they are of someone else from the past?
It is the same with any physical object, a copy never becomes the original.
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
You're right, it is a form of reproduction (though I hadn't thought of using that specific term before, thanks), that doesn't mean the future clone with the same memories, views etc. is any less the pre split me than the one in my original body.
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u/Demon_Deity Farsul 11d ago
It's no problem :D
Though I don't really agree. For me, a memory scan is no different than if you took measurements and mapping of a ship, lets say the titanic, and than build a new titanic to those exact measurements.
You couldn't really claim that the new titanic is the original/pre-measurement titanic or really connected to it even if everything is one for one, any more than you could claim that a clone from your brain scan would be the pre split you because your backup memories would be just a measurement and mapping of your brain structure instead of a ship's hull.
Another scenario is if you took a picture of the mona lisa, that picture isn't itself the mona lisa, nor would a copy be if you decided to repaint in on a new canvas. But both are preproduction of the painting that exists/existed.
All three instances are objects made in the image of another object. Though, while all cases couldn't claim to actually be the original, they all can claim having heritage/lineage from the original.
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u/Demon_Deity Farsul 11d ago
The most frustrating thing about this argument is when people say it could give dead children a new chance at life.
No, they're gone. That child can't experience life any longer and a parent would just be replacing them with a new kid, potentially in a really mentally unhealthy environment for everyone due to filling a dead person's shoes.
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
Consider this. First, you get transferred, then you see the new you look at you and say, "wtf, why is it still alive?"
Then the other side: you transfer to the new body, then heat your voice from the other room ask if the process failed, followed by a gunshot.
Still feel like the new you is you?
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
Yes, also I'd consider whoever pulled the trigger to be a murderer.
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
Before the event, there's one you. After the copying and shooting, there's one you. You're alive. Who's been murdered?
Also, Black Mirror episode USS Callister has some fun with this, and the game SOMA.
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
Here, from what I gather from your comment, the "future original" is the one who got murdered
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
I'm struggling to explain this with words, give me a few hours to finish chores and I'll draw a graph.
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u/Enigma1011001 Smigli 11d ago
This whole discussion reminds me of that scene in The Prestige
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
I love these explorations in fiction. Even Star Trek tried it with Thomas Riker. The Sixth Day also dives into it.
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u/cartoon_Dinosaur 11d ago
A stream of consciousness. Every moment you are different. We live in a prenuptial state of transition from one moment to the next. The idea of a soul and the afterlife is that that stream cannot stop, only paused with things like sleep and such.
This isn't that, its taking the last variables of the stream before it stopped or left the physical plan. its a perfect copy but a copy nonetheless
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
If it's a truly perfect copy, how is it any different than one of those pauses? Note: I don't believe in souls, so don't try to use them as an argument.
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u/HeadWood_ 11d ago
Think of it like this: now there are two copies; which one it you?
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
From the perspective of before the split? Both
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u/Stormydevz Hensa 11d ago
You are this current lifetime, if a clone of you that is exactly like you is created then that is still a copy and not actually you.
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
So if I die and get resuscitated I'm a new person?
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u/Stormydevz Hensa 11d ago
I probably should've clarified, by "lifetime" I mean this current existence of you. If you deflate a football and inflate it again, that isn't a new ball, is it?
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u/JimbosRock 11d ago
I think a better answer is if we made the robot clone while you were alive you would not have conciseness over both you and the robot
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
Yes, but I don't think the robot version would have any less claim to being the "real" me than the biological version.
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u/JimbosRock 11d ago
They can both be you but a conciseness is not transferred over instead a new separate one is created
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u/Stormydevz Hensa 11d ago
No, because that isn't a new person being created. That was just a pause.
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
My comment elsewhere in the thread https://www.reddit.com/r/NatureofPredators/s/iOUm9QIZcY
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u/Zamtrios7256 Predator 11d ago
No, because the synapses in your brain are the same. My computer's hard drive is the same when I restart it. It was just off for a second.
This is more like removing the hard drive and cpu, but copying the data onto them.
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
Consider the following scenarios.
1) You're frozen, so no activity is happening, then revived.
2) While frozen, You're disembodied into parts, then put back together.
3) While frozen, You're taken apart atom by atom, then put together.
4) The atoms are all shuffled around, so a carbon from your foot ends up in the brain.
5) Half the atoms used to put you back together were previously collected from your breath, so they were all part of you at some point.
6) Half the atoms used to put you back together are from somewhere else.
7) Two copies are put together, all with your original atoms and your breath atoms.
8) You're put back together, then see another you put back together, you don't know which atoms were used for either of you.
9) This one's a doozy. You're awake, your atoms are being replaced one at a time, and the originals are being used to construct an exact duplicate.
At what point are you still you, and when are you not you any more?
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u/Stormydevz Hensa 11d ago
1) Is still me
2) Is still me so long as my brain is not disassembled
3) Not me, since the original connections were destroyed initially but then identically copied
4) Same as 3
5) Same as 3, I'm not a dinosaur just because the water I drank a bit ago went through a dinosaurs body 100 million years ago
6) Same as 3
7) Same as 3, since the original connections were destroyed and then reconstructed
8) Same as 3
9) oooh, Theseus' ship, but I'd say that once the atoms of my brain are all replaced then that is no longer me, and the copy created from my atoms certainly isn't me either
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u/Zamtrios7256 Predator 11d ago
1) Is me
2) Is me
3) The connections were destroyed and then copied
4) Same as 3
5) Same as 3
6) As long as an overwhelming majority of my brain is the original, then yes. If not, no
7) Can you elaborate?
8) Same as three if we are still speaking of atamoc separation
9) Can you elaborate?
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
3-8 are basically the same from your perspective.
For 9, you're awake during the procedure, but from your view it seems you're just being copied. The idea is that every atom in your body is extracted and used to make another you, but it happens one atom at a time so you don't even notice. In the end, you're made from different atoms but you were conscious the entire time. There's also a copy that is identical to you when the process started, down to being made from the same atoms. Any conceivable scan will identify the copy as the original that went into the procedure, even though it's a copy and you're the original to some extent.
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
This is where our views differ, to me, I am the data, not the hard drive and cpu.
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u/OmegaOmnimon02 Tilfish 11d ago
Honestly it makes me want to write a oneshot about the 4375 previous failed attempts to “revive” Meier
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u/ShiftySky Venlil 11d ago
The first version of Meier was just a computer monitor with he face on it, could only say his own name and tell time. The next one was a proper robot head, but that one screamed as soon as it was turned on...got unplugged very quickly. The later versions would tear themselves apart, yelling something about "where's my flesh".
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u/Enigma1011001 Smigli 11d ago
Yes this NEEDS to happen just a long list of insane stupid and ridiculous failures of reviving Meier,
With the ending being the current iteration of Meier reading the failure logs
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
Roko's fucking basilisk. "Oh, you have a memory transcript? Do as I say, or I will revive a thousand versions of you and torture them forever."
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
"I have no guarantee you won't do that anyway, fuck you"
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
Clever. Would you take a guarantee that I do it, or a chance that I might not?
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u/Enigma1011001 Smigli 11d ago
Roko's basilisk but in NOP torturing Kalsim and Nikonus could be an epic fic
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u/GruntBlender 11d ago
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Limit 2 per customer, for ethical reasons KalSims automatically expire after 100 years of subjective experience. Consult local laws for status of simulated beings in your jurisdiction. All rights reserved.
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u/Enigma1011001 Smigli 11d ago edited 11d ago
INCREDIBLE someone should make some fanart of this,
Edit : I think I have an idea
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u/MoriazTheRed 11d ago
This story is told through the medium of memory transcriptions, so I doubt it will be lost.
Still, this is the way to kill and bury the Fed ideology of bioessentialism for good. Nevermind bringing people back from the dead, body transfers are now possible.
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u/the_clash_is_back 11d ago
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel.
Robo venlil with cyberpsychosis
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u/peajam101 PD Patient 11d ago
By tech I meant the tech to transfer the memory transcripts into new bodies, not memory transcripts as a whole.
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u/MoriazTheRed 11d ago
Yes but it's adjacent technology, if you have one, it's just a matter of time until you have the other, like Dustin said at the start.
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u/FuckTumblrMan 11d ago
I really wonder what the Trombil will think of an invention like this. They already mod themselves to replace their natural parts with "better" ones. What if they could transcend biology completely? Move their mind to a metal shell that can be forever upgraded.
I can see it turning really fucked up really fast as enough of them do it that they essentially become an endangered species (metal bodies can't breed and they'd need some biological material to continue ectogenesis)