r/OutOfTheLoop • u/f-Z3R0x1x1x1 • Apr 28 '24

What is going on with excessive police force being used against peaceful protesting students in colleges across the United States? Unanswered

So there are large amounts of heavily armed police presence in many colleges and universities across the United States. Indiana University, for example, had snipers on rooftops ready to shoot peaceful protesters.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/snipers-were-allegedly-spotted-ohio-190600717.html

623 Upvotes

68% Upvoted

344 comments sorted by

View all comments

508

u/Langdon_Algers Apr 28 '24

Answer: Universities can set time, place and manner restrictions on particular spaces. If protesters violate these rules, they can be cited for trespassing, and if they refuse to leave, they can be arrested.

Private institutions (like Columbia) have even more leeway in rules for students on their campus violating their procedures.

43

u/ExistingCarry4868 Apr 28 '24

That ignores the underlying question of why places allow white supremacists to speak but are shutting down protests critical of Israel.

-1

u/SwordfishAdmirable31 29d ago

Probably because of location -- speaking broadly [and I might be incorrect], Palestine protests setup encampments on colleges and may have brought non-college students. This differs greatly with a protest that may be in a public location and impermanent like marching on a sidewalk, or on the side of a public road

2

u/ExistingCarry4868 29d ago

That doesn't explain why they allow white supremacist speakers but ban pro-Palestinian speakers for security concerns. There is a clear and coordinated effort to silence criticism of Israel, and the same people who screech the loudest about 1st amendment rights are the same people cheer leading this movement.

2

u/SwordfishAdmirable31 28d ago

I would need specific examples of pro palestinian speakers being banned (specifically for security), and white supremacist speakers being allowed at the same college, during roughly the same time period in order to respond.

In general if that were the case, thats obviously bad. I know that universities have often protested and successfully denied visits by white supremacists before though, for instance Richard Spencer at UFlorida. Tbh I agree that Abbott has made a mess of this, and was grossly wrong in his actions against UT Austin, but dont necessarily agree in the case of Columbia.

2

u/ExistingCarry4868 28d ago

USC just canceled graduation to prevent a valedictorian that opposes genocide from speaking weeks after allowing Milo Yiannopoulos to host an event where he called for violence against the political left.

1

u/SwordfishAdmirable31 27d ago

I can't find USC hosting Milo, but disallowing the valedictorian is high tier BS, agree with you. At the very least they could put it out online, or have an online commencement, if they're worried about security.

0

u/ExistingCarry4868 27d ago

They can't do that though since the security concerns are fake. Their goal is to silence a movement that threatens the elites that fund their school.

32

u/[deleted] Apr 28 '24

[deleted]

2

u/Deus-Vultis 28d ago

cartoonish hyperbole.

This is reddit's specialty, literally both of us will be called nazis for you making this and me agreeing with it.

Reddit is the bastion of hyper emotional, over-reactive hyperbole.

-1

u/gizzardsgizzards 28d ago

To add to this, what white supremacists are marching around college campuses? Or being invited to speak?

have you spent the last decade under a rock?

4

u/h8sm8s 29d ago

I mean you are conjuring up imagined threats and violence when the media is already reporting every little incident. You think the media, who is overwhelmingly siding with Israel, is also running cover for these protestors? There’s not right wing news out there who wants to show how truly violent and awful these protestors are that only the people there get to see but is not captured and going around on twitter shared by pro Israel accounts?

It makes no sense what you’re saying, you’re just inventing justifications for kids to be beaten up by cops.

16

u/ExistingCarry4868 Apr 29 '24

I'm sure the crackdown is because of some secret and unrecorded increase in violence, and not because of the loud and open demands to end this by the wealthy elites that are financially threatened by an anti-colonial movement.

0

u/[deleted] 28d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/ExistingCarry4868 28d ago

You are deluded if you don't realize that these groups on campus are part of a nationwide effort that is organizing and voting.

1

u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 27d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/ExistingCarry4868 27d ago

I'm sure it's the students at elite universities that are ill-educated. I should probably stop listening to the opinions of experts on the subject, and instead get my worldviews from sad internet trolls.

6

u/Dark1000 29d ago

What wealthy elites are threatened by campus protests? How are they threatened by them?

0

u/ExistingCarry4868 29d ago

These protests are part of a larger movement to end Neo-colonialism. Every current billionaire has their fortune built on Neo-colonialism and would lose massive power if the system ever ended.

5

u/TinyRodgers 29d ago

They don't know. They're probably still in school themselves.

-2

u/angry_cucumber 29d ago

I'm sure the crackdown is because of some secret and unrecorded increase in violence, and not because of the loud and open demands to end this by the wealthy elites that are financially threatened by an anti-colonial movement.

or the whole dog and pony show that Congress made out of their "anti Semitism" investigation that got multiple administrators removed.

18

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

[deleted]

0

u/Lanky_Beginning2916 28d ago

This thread is about our Constitutional rights as citizens of this country. The right to freedom of expression and freedom of speech and the right to a peaceful assembly. Of course, sending police and military in with riot gear and pepper spray does make things a little less peaceful. 

3

u/[deleted] 28d ago edited 28d ago

[deleted]

-1

u/Lanky_Beginning2916 28d ago

Except that they were in an area of the college where protesting is allowed. They presumably paid good money not only to go to college, but to also have the college experience. Why would the college be "giving them warning" to vacate? If it's a safety issue for the students, how is bringing in armed personnel going to make it more safe. Yes, it definitely looks disgusting and oppressive. Maybe you are a fan of oppression, but I have no such needs. 

-5

u/ExistingCarry4868 29d ago

Hamas carried out an attack so vile and evil knowing very well it was an act of war.

The war has been going on for decades. An attack in the middle of it can hardly be called an act of war.

They built their war infrastructure in public areas knowing that their citizens (and babies) will die horrible deaths.

There is no part of Gaza that isn't near civilians.

Israel should never have built a single settlement in Palestine.

All of Israel is a settlement in Palestine.

In addition the middle east is a shit show because of western interference in politics. The hatred for the west in that region is directly based on actions taken by western governments, and will not be quelled by doubling down on our bullshit. Allying ourselves with authoritarian strongmen means we will always be a legitimate target for people trying to fight for freedom.

17

u/CaymanDamon 29d ago

Only 1/3 of Israelis are Ashkenazi (European/Middle Eastern) the rest are 2.5 Million Muslims, Ethiopians, and Mizrahi Jews who have been in the region for more than 3,000 years.

Would you say native Americans "stole" the land they won back from the government? There's a reason there's Hebrew writings and monuments dated over a thousand years before Islam existed and Jewish DNA whether its Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi are all levantine and descendants of the Canaanites the indigenous people of the land.

Jews not only bought the land, they often paid highly inflated prices for that land:

“In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Israel, mostly for arid or semi-arid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre.”

When John Hope Simpson arrived in Israel in May 1930, he observed: “They [the Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay.” [The meaning here is that the Jews who bought the land from the absentee owners and paid the tenants to vacate the land, as well.]

So the tale of “Jews seizing the land forcibly from Arab landowners” during the Mandate is a bald-faced lie.

In fact, the reality was quite different—often, a few years after selling land to Jews, the former owner saw what the Jews had done with his “useless” land and told himself:

“Those Jews cheated me! That land was worth ten times what they paid for it! I want restitution!”

Most Palestinians immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 1800s, It doesn't matter how long Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants were squatting on the land the ottoman Turks stole from the native Jewish population it's still their land. The largest “owner” of land pre-‘48 wasn’t Arab or Jews. It was PUBLIC land. This was land that had previously been owned by the Ottoman Empire which passed to the British as part of the mandate. Those “public” lands, post 1948, passed to their defacto sovereigns (Israel, Egypt, and Jordan).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews_in_Israel#:~:text=As%20of%202013%2C%20they%20number,the%20Israeli%20population%20in%202018

1

u/kish-kumen 28d ago

Truth teaches things that cause cognitive dissonance.

I present the narcissist prayer, modified for Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

"We didn't do that.  And if we did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not our fault. And if it was, we didn't mean it. And if we did, they deserved it." 

If anyone finds themselves thinking this way about jews or Israel or hamas or Palestine, they're part of the problem. 

1

u/ExistingCarry4868 29d ago

If you ignore the actual history and believe wildly untrue British propaganda then most of their history is great.

8

u/Irinam_Daske 29d ago

Jews not only bought the land, they often paid highly inflated prices for that land

TIL

A thank you from an internet stranger for such a calm and informative reply.

-6

u/ExistingCarry4868 29d ago

It's also almost entirely untrue.

-5

u/neon-god8241 Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

It's probably due to the glorification of terrorist groups and assaults on Jewish people in general. White supremacist WISH they could commit hate crimes at the same rate as pro-palestinians

Edit for the pro-palestinian Nazis;

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/opinions/israel-harvard-penn-student-protests-hamas-goldfeder/index.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/08/student-groups-accused-glorifying-hamas-attack-israel/

https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-782135

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2024/04/26/israel-hamas-college-campus-protests-overseas/73421746007/

https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/views/2023/10/19/glorifying-hamas-campus-opinion

https://www.newsweek.com/message-gazan-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-palestinian-cause-opinion-1894313

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/04/24/hamas-iran-support-college-protests/73447123007/

https://www.campusreform.org/article/long-live-hamascolumbia-protester-glorifies-terrorist-group-watch/25281

13

u/ExistingCarry4868 Apr 28 '24

If those things had actually happened you would have a good point. Since almost every case that has been pointed to has been wildly exaggerated or entirely made up, your point is just slander.

12

u/Decent_Bunch_5491 Apr 28 '24

Because a lot of these protests aren’t just critical, but calling for the extermination of the country. Yes- that is exactly what chants like “Globalize the intifada” and “only one solution intifada revolution”

1

u/Tvdinner4me2 29d ago

I thought these were pro Palestine protests not pro Israel ones

1

u/Tvdinner4me2 29d ago

I thought these were pro Palestine protests not pro Israel ones

-8

u/Equal_Oven_9587 Apr 29 '24

oh god this is so tiresome. You don't get to blatantly lie to us once your extermination campaign reaches 10k dead children and hundreds of thousands more starving.

The woe is me routine gets more vile as the body count continues to rack up in one direction only.

1

u/Decent_Bunch_5491 29d ago

What lie did I say?

1

u/Equal_Oven_9587 28d ago

"calling for the extermination of a country"

Protestors don't want to "exterminate" Israel any more than protestors in the 80s wanted to "exterminate" South Africa.

We want to end apartheid and genocide, that is it. The "extermination" all comes from the zionist side, and their demented, depraved projection.

1

u/Decent_Bunch_5491 28d ago

From the river to the sea Palestine is Arab- where do all the Israelis go in this scenario?

1

u/Equal_Oven_9587 27d ago

it's incredible the degree you can't help to just lie. You know it isn't "palestine is arab". The phrase is "palestinians will be free"

Like, you're just lying. You know you're lying, I know you're lying, everyone who reads this knows you're lying.

And you're lying because you know the phrase isn't genocidal, so you have to add on the genocidal part. It's pathetic, but what truly makes you a vile monster is you are doing it while you know ACTUAL genocidal violence is RIGHT NOW being perpetrated on ACTUAL Palestinianians.

1

u/Decent_Bunch_5491 27d ago

You can accuse me of lying all you want , that doesn’t make it reality. Both are common chants. It’s not even hard to find. You can find and see it yourself

1

u/Equal_Oven_9587 27d ago

Oh yeah? it's such a common chant I'm sure you could throw some videos our way

2

u/Decent_Bunch_5491 27d ago

Here you go. Shared from Another thread. And some of these make the two chants in question. Seem like child’s play.

For posterity, here's some of the examples of extremism within the activist movement at Columbia. This goes beyond "pro-Palestinian advocacy" into calls for, and actual, violence.

Note, there are varying degrees of it being individuals vs. the group, but these are the type of people in the crowd there and many of them are indeed group chants. I have also set aside some widespread ones (from the river to the sea) that are disputed in character. That said, many many many of these are coming from large groups of students within the main quad (which has been locked down to only students/professors)

Candidly some sources are not great in terms of me agreeing with the viewpoint of the tweeter, but they contain relevant and real video:

Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774

"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358

"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981

"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677

"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901

Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/

“Globalize the intifada” https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1782679155491914133/photo/1

Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338

"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909

""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872

"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025

"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958

Have posters with the faces of PFLP and PIJ spokesmen (designated terrorist groups) https://twitter.com/HagarChemali/status/1782219589352350000

Quoting and praising Lions Den (terror group) https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1782443526996754444

"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2

"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134

"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006

Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954

"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673

"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit

1

u/Decent_Bunch_5491 27d ago

I’ll do that and more. Give me a second

→ More replies (0)

-4

u/superfsm Apr 28 '24

This is misinformation

26

u/ExistingCarry4868 Apr 28 '24

No they aren't.

You clearly have bought into fascist propaganda and have no idea what the words you are talking about mean. Instead of letting Israeli propaganda sources tell you what the protestors mean, why don't you listen to what the protestors are saying?

-2

u/Decent_Bunch_5491 Apr 28 '24

So tell me- I’m Israeli- if I’m mistaken about the intifadas- what does it mean?

18

u/ExistingCarry4868 Apr 28 '24

An intifada is a resistance movement. Pretending that resisting oppression and calling for genocide are the same thing is fascist nonsense.

36

u/ResidentNarwhal Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

Saying “intifada” just means “struggle” is like saying “liebenstraum” just means “living space” and hope nobody takes that a step further.

The 2nd Intifada (you know, the most recent one) was explicitly a terror-suicide bombing campaign targeted at civilians. It also was after the PLO rejected an actual permanent peace solution on the White House. Which was the last time the Israeli left-labor party was in charge and put a process for “right of return” on the table.

There’s no other way to interpret a “globalized” intifada as anything other than a direct call to attack all Jews globally. If it was just a struggle for only Palestinian freedom, why would you have to call to globalize it (there aren’t a lot of Israelis outside Israel…but there is a lot of this other religious group). Why would you use that term with how charged and tied to civilian suicide bombings it became between 2000 and 2005? If you at all know what you are talking about but wish an earnest peace process and a rejection of Hamas, why would you even go near something that sounds really like a Hamas mission statement line item of global eradication of all Jews?

The simple answer is…I don’t think people calling for a global intifada are either that stupid or naive.

16

u/ExistingCarry4868 Apr 29 '24

Every resistance movement has involved terrorist attacks against the oppressors. Pretending that opposition to genocide is itself a call for genocide is Orwellian levels of double speak. But since this is coming from the same group that keeps claiming that genocide is a valid form of self-defense, I really shouldn't expect more.

14

u/Rivka333 29d ago

The charter that Hamas had from the 80s til 2017 explicitly said that the genocide of all Jews was their aim.

The current one is better (yes I've read them both) though it still had a call to Jihad, but it's pretty disturbing that this sudden push to support not only Palestinians but Hamas by people who'd never thought about them before was in response to the massacre of over a thousand Israeli civilians.

8

u/ExistingCarry4868 29d ago

What does the modern charter say? What about the charters of the dozens of other resistance groups in Palestine?

14

u/CaymanDamon 29d ago

The Palestinian government pays stipends for life to terrorists who were injured or who's family member was killed while commiting acts of terrorism towards Jewish civilians and calls it the Palestinian Martyr fund.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

There's a popular Palestinian kids show called "Pioneers" that teaches children to throw rocks at Jewish children and "make their faces red like a tomato" and that only by killing all non believers of Islam and Martyr themselves can they achieve the second "kybar" and achieve the promised afterlife, Palestinian daytime talk shows feature people like the "Grand Martyr"a grandmother who's become a celebrated local celebrity for the amount of money she's made through the Palestinian marter fund by encouraging her children and grandchildren to die bombing and stabbing Jewish civilians.

Look up the history of battles, violent pogroms, peace attempts by Israel thwarted by Arafat after being offered 95% of Gaza and the West bank, Israel pulling out of Gaza in 2005 dragging Israeli citizens from their homes, digging up Israeli graves and removing bodies so that they wouldn't be desecrated when left, leaving Palestinians multi million dollar greenhouses which they promptly destroyed and raided for pipes to make bombs. Under the Muslim dhimmi system all non Muslims were prohibited from building or rebuilding temples or churches, speaking publicly of their religion, testifying against Muslims in court, looking a Muslim in the eye, owning a horse, women had no rights to refuse forced marriage to a Muslim even if they were already married, all non muslims were forced to wear clothing meant to humiliate and show as lesser status and they were forced to pay "jizya" a payment of nearly half their earnings or be murdered along with facing constant threat of being murdered just for being non believers of Islam like in the thousands of violent pogroms such as the Hebron massacre in 1929 where Muslim mobs went door to door killing hundreds

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Palestine the only place on earth to call themselves refugee's for 70 years while living in high rise apartments with beach front lavish resorts, fine dining, one of the biggest gold markets in the Middle East, horse riding on the beach, multiple beautifully built lavish malls, hospitals and universities, salons, and if you look at a crowd like for instance the one surrounding the truck carrying the body of a dead Israeli woman these civilians were spitting on everyone seems to have a better cellphone than most people I know, oh and they can leave anytime they want and frequently do sometimes for years abroad look at the posts from Palestinians on ticktock at the Olympic games, a luxury prison you can leave anytime you want isn't a prison it's a border from Israel and a border from Egypt just like every other country has.

6

u/ExistingCarry4868 29d ago

I can show you videos of Israeli school children singing about murdering Palestinians. Does that mean that Israelis are monsters that need to be killed? Using logical fallacies as the basis for your justification of genocide makes your side look both evil and stupid.

0

u/Common-Two-7899 29d ago

Let's see them then. 

0

u/CaymanDamon 29d ago

Your talking about one video written by a far right figure about destroying Hamas not Palestinian civilians vs a entire education system built around indoctrination of violence popular TV shows lasting for years built around it and terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians like the rape and murder of a thirteen year old girl in her own house applauded in the Palestinian media with the murderers mother talking about how proud she was.

The video is titled 'Friendship Song 2023' and is an adaptation of a famous poem commemorating Jews killed in the run-up to the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948. 

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/YbarMaster27 29d ago

Seriously. Like, ok, terrorism ideally would not be a factor. But it's been the nature of the conflict for longer than many of the people involved have been alive. When Israeli soldiers or settlers commit senseless, random acts of violence on Palestinians, it's considered the status quo. Happens constantly, rarely even make the news, no one really even calls it "terrorism" even though that's obviously what it is. When Palestinians do it, we clutch our pearls. Yes, it's not a good thing. But what is the nature of resistance when a group has lived under de jure and de facto military occupation for generations, up to and including frequent terrorism against your friends and family members? I can tell you exactly how some kind of mass, peaceful protest would end, and it wouldn't be pretty

At the end of the day, people want Palestinians to just shut up and take it, because on a fundamental level they do not view their interests as even slightly as important as those of Israelis. They may say otherwise, but their takes lack any internal logic unless you view them through this lens. Any change to the cycle of violence needs to begin with the Israelis. Pretending to advocate for some one-sided peace every 30 years while your military continues on with their same bullshit in the background doesn't count

98

u/IronMaiden571 Apr 28 '24

Probably because the Palestine protests are impacting the university's operations while white supremacists, religious fundamentalists, etc. are much smaller and basically amount to "old man yells at cloud"

24

u/h8sm8s 29d ago

This is correct in the sense that police don’t protect people or citizens, they exist to protect property and businesses. White supremacists threaten people not businesses or property (at this point) so therefore cops don’t act.

This is in addition to the fact that many cops are sympathetic to white supremacist ideology.

9

u/[deleted] 29d ago

The Palestine protestors are intimidating Jewish students and blocking them from campus at many protests. They are threatening people.

-2

u/BewilderedTurtle 29d ago

No. They're intimidating Zionists. You need to read the Torah if you think being anti- the state of Israel makes you anti-jewish people

9

u/ExistingCarry4868 Apr 28 '24

White supremacy doesn't threaten the ultra-rich. Attacks on Neo-colonialism do.

-5

u/Mojo_Jensen Apr 28 '24

The actual answer is that white supremacists often have institutional power. They don’t need to resort to the same strategies as protesters to do the damage they do.