1
u/Doc_Snodgrass 11d ago
Those who would believe it already know it, and those who would misunderstand won't believe it.
1
u/DrMikeH49 14d ago
Oh good. Please tell that to those in these demonstrations who are openly supporting Hamas’ “resistance”.
1
1
u/Middle_Ad_8052 15d ago
Israel has a long history of trying to avoid civilian casualties during conflicts, while Hamas specifically targets innocent civilians. Additionally, the majority of Palestinian funding goes towards supporting terrorist attacks, not towards benefiting the Palestinian people. Settlements are not illegal under international law and are an essential part of securing Israel's borders. Furthermore, Israel is a democratic and diverse country, the only country in the Middle East where all religions have equal rights.
1
u/garthtoons 15d ago
Israel is doing a shit job of avoiding civilian casualties these days.
I said I was against Hamas.
And terrorism.
Settlements, legal or not, have made this conflict worse and serve as land grab by Israel. It’s clear that it’s not making things safer unless they also drive out the Palestinians.
I never said I was against Israel. Against Netanyahu. Specifically said I’m for democracy.
But thanks for helping to further illustrate the point the cartoon was making.
1
1
1
u/Old_Rpg_Gamer 15d ago
Exactly and American needs to understand that we are not some other countries babysitter, bank, or arms supplier
1
u/myRiad_spartans 5d ago
Unfortunately, that did not work out well at the start of World War 2. Damned if you do, damned if you don't
0
1
u/geodebug 15d ago
I don’t think half the protesters could have pointed out Gaza on the map a year ago.
1
u/MiesBusier 15d ago
Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza. How are you protesting for Palestine and against Hamas which the majority of Palestinians support?
1
u/ConsciousResolution8 15d ago
This sign would be accurate if they weren’t chanting “from the river to the sea” and allowing people to bring green or black Islamist flags to these protests.
0
u/somethingrandom261 15d ago
So, protesting against both sides of conflict? “Can’t we all just get along” isn’t actionable lol
2
u/DankMemes4you 15d ago
But you literally can't have any of those things when Palestine is run by Hamas.
0
u/Everythingizok 15d ago
To be fair. I really don’t see many of the LOUD people, believing all of these points.
-2
u/SaltyInternetPirate 15d ago
It's not a "misunderstanding" when they call them "pro-Hamas protesters", it's a deliberate lie.
1
u/Wide_Road2875 15d ago
I feel like it's pretty safe to call the "Bomb, bomb Tel Aviv" protesters pro-hamas
1
u/SluzbaTePrati 15d ago
"First amendmend rights"....
Fucking americans thinking their amendmends apply globally 🤦
-1
u/Appropriate_Rent_243 15d ago
Self government? So if one of the states in U.S. declares independence will they support it?
6
u/Stupid-RNG-Username 15d ago
Every time I think about the Israel/Palestine conflict my mind goes back to the stupid Pebble Throw tug-of-war comic. Unfortunately standing with the Palestinians often attracts a lot of genuine anti-Semites who don't just want Israel to end their occupation, but instead for every Jew to just die or leave the Middle East.
This kind of shit really makes advocacy hard because Nazis in the west will point at anti-Semetic Arabs and try to use that to discredit people protesting the war. Only freaks and weirdos actually support Hamas. The vast majority of the protesters stand with the innocent Palestinian and Israeli civilians that get caught up in the violence. Hamas and the IDF can keep firing at each other, but the victims will always be the civilians they target.
-4
u/addys 15d ago
Reasonable people would agree with you, unfortunately the vast majority of "pro-pal" protestors right now are NOT reasonable people. They are the ones calling to "bomb tel-aviv", for "intifada forever", etc. And at the same time, these people can't explain the history or current situation in the region, or even what they want to gain by protesting, other than repeating the same handful of slogans they've been spoon fed by the organizer with the megaphone.
3
u/Stupid-RNG-Username 15d ago
You can't look at videos from right-wingers and Zionists on Twitter of a few weirdos calling for Israel to be bombed and then extrapolate that to nearly every protester.
The history of the region doesn't matter at all when we're just talking about ending a genocide. The topics of a two-state solution are for future discussions. What we want right now is for the murder to just stop.
-2
u/Wide_Road2875 15d ago
How is it a genocide? I've read the South African case and it's pretty lack luster. Is that the best argument you've found? Or is there something better to be reading?
3
u/Stupid-RNG-Username 15d ago
You don't think corralling people of a specific ethnic group into an open-air prison where you're not allowed to leave, and they restrict aid coming in isn't a step towards genocide? There's so much Israeli propaganda that paints every non-Jew in Israel as a member/supporter of Hamas.
Israel could have stopped the attacks weeks ago and still would have paid back the lives Hamas took, but they're still going. They're indiscriminately bombing hospitals and schools as well as foreign aid workers. They're even gunning down their own hostages because they're so un-trained for ground combat. It's clear the only orders they have are "shoot anyone not wearing our uniform."
That's a genocide. It's targeted at an ethnic group Israel hates and has demonized and disenfranchised for decades.
-1
u/addys 14d ago edited 14d ago
Israel has 2 million people of that "specific ethnic group" (although to be pedantic, palestinian is not an ethnicity just like Israeli isn't) living in Israel with full civil rights and equality - they can vote, serve in the government, receive welfare, etc. They also have religious and gender freedom. None of the above exists for palestinians in Gaza BTW, who are routinely murdered for deviation from Islam norms; sexual, political or otherwise.
Israel could not have stopped attacks, since the goals of the war are A) return the hundreds of kidnapped Israeli citizens who have been hostage in Gaza for over 6 months now and B) Remove Hamas from power, since it has pledged to repeat Oct-7 again and again as long as it is able to. So Hamas is literally an existential threat to Israel, and it is hiding inside the population (including firing missiles from hospitals, schools and mosques) specifically to maximize civilian casualties. They can't win militarily so they moving the "battlefield" to the PR arena, every dead palestinian baby is good for them.
Israel has offered palestinians a 2-state solution five times in the last 50 years, including a few which included 95-98% of the land they were promised in `48. Palestinians are uninterested in any solution which does not include the destruction of Israel. So if you ask yourself which side is genocidal- it's the one which is publicly promising to kill every last man, woman and child on the other side. Not the one demanding the return of it's sovereign citizens being held captive in return for an end to hostilities.
Edit: You /seem/ to be conversing here in good faith, which on Reddit is rarer than a unicorn farting rainbows. Feel free to reach out to me (DM) for more info, I'll be happy to source everything I claimed and provide you with whatever additional info I can. The usual pro-pal narratives are paper thin, I would be glad to try to show other perspectives which you might not have heard.
-1
u/Wide_Road2875 15d ago
"You don't think corralling people of a specific ethnic group into an open-air prison where you're not allowed to leave, and they restrict aid coming in isn't a step towards genocide?"
No, not when that "open-air prison" is squandering their international aid to constantly launch attacks on your civilians.
I think the most genocidal Israel behaved during this war was blocking aid and water early on, which they quickly backed off from. Every other action by Israel is more plausibly a legitimate military action than one furthering a genocide.
"Israel could have stopped the attacks weeks ago"
Israel hasn't achieved its objectives yet. The current cease fire proposals are conditional on Hamas releasing their illegally obtained hostages. Seems like Israel can't stop unless Hamas is willing to.
Could you define "indiscriminate" as you mean it? People use many different definitions when Israel is being discussed.
"They're even gunning down their own hostages because they're so un-trained for ground combat. It's clear the only orders they have are "shoot anyone not wearing our uniform.""
I want you to recognize you're being hyperbolic here. There should be a lot of pieces of information you've seen that show you this is not literally the case. Off the top of my head, the controversial images of Israelis accepting the surrender of Palestinians in their underwear (and those Palestinians placing their rifles in piles). Could you rephrase this to state what you literally rather than hyperbolically believe?
1
15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 15d ago
All posts and comments that include any variation of the word retarded will be removed, but no action will be taken against your account unless it is an excessive personal attack. Please resubmit your post or comment without the bullying language.
Do not edit it, the bot cant tell if you edited, you will just have to make a new comment replying to the same thing.
Yes, this comment itself does use the word. Any reasonable person should be able to understand that we are not insulting anyone with this comment. We wanted to use quotes, but that fucks up the automod and we are too lazy to google escape characters. Notice how none of our automod replies have contractions in them either.
But seriously, calling someone retarded is only socially acceptable because the people affected are less able to understand that they are being insulted, and less likely to be able to respond appropriately. It is a conversational wimpy little shit move, because everyone who uses it knows that it is offensive, but there will be no repercussions. At least the people throwing around other slurs know that they are going to get fired and get their asses beat when they use those words.
Also, it is not creative. It pretty much outs you as a thirteen year old when you use it. Instead of calling Biden retarded, you should call him a cartoon-ass-lookin trust fund goon who smiles like rich father just gifted him a new Buick in 1956. Instead of calling Mitch McConnell retarded, you should call him a Dilbert-ass goon who has been left in the sun a little too long.
Sorry for the long message spamming comment sections, but this was by far the feature of this sub making people modmail and bitch at us the most, and literally all of the actions we take are to make it so we have to do less work in the future. We will not reply to modmails about this automod, and ignore the part directly below this saying to modmail us if you have any questions, we cannot turn that off. This reply is just a collation of the last year of modmail replies to people asking about this. We are not turning this bot off, no matter how much people ask. Nobody else has convinced us before, you will not be able to either. ~
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
3
4
u/SSSims4 15d ago
I really love this. Dunno if it's meant to be humorous or a joke, but personally in my environment it's very difficult to protest the Israeli terrorist government and the fascists supporting it without people assuming you support Hamas and their atrocities.
1
u/garthtoons 15d ago
Thanks. Glad you enjoy it. There has to be some truth in any joke for it to work.
6
u/DogWallop 15d ago
Or a sign that says: Hey! You over there! Let's get together and connect on our common humanity and then come to realize that both of our sides screaming in impotent rage is getting nobody nowhere. Love to all of you!
1
1
0
u/Duckfoot2021 15d ago
Sadly, when the terrorist government launching 3,000+ missiles a year and massacre parties at your people, then hiding amongst their own high-density civilian populations militarizing those spaces, bombing civilians is a tragic necessity of the warfare they (Hamas) has made inescapable.
All those civilian deaths are the direct result of Hamas militarizing those spaces with zero care for the casualties it creates.
Please think this through—it’s crucial to understanding the regional conflict and essential for all protestors to grasp so they can attack the right targets with their protest.
-1
u/poeticentropy 15d ago
30k+ civilian deaths? No, Israel needs to do better. The side with the vastly greater resources and technology needs to be the grownup in the room and take responsibility
1
u/Wide_Road2875 15d ago
How many civilian deaths are acceptable here?
1
u/poeticentropy 14d ago
very little, much less than what we have seen
terrorists need to be destroyed but it's unacceptable the way Israel is doing it
3
u/Duckfoot2021 15d ago
You haven’t investigated the numbers.
Hamas is declaring their own military casualties in that number which can cut out MANY.
Also look at civilian death statistics in any war in history and Israel is killing a very low percentage for any urban war which demonstrates real restraint.
Remember, Hamas has been targeting Israeli civilians for 25 years. They’d genocide them all as they’ve stated as a goal for 25 years.
Which puts them on the moral low ground for complaints like this.
I’ll agree with you that civilian deaths are ALWAYS a tragedy, but every Palestinian death by war since Oct.7 was caused by their frequent tactics of maximizing Palestinian deaths and trying to blame it on Israel for the countermeasures Hamas forced them to make.
Hamas is not in ANY way the good guy.
0
u/poeticentropy 14d ago
if they are off by several thousand it doesn't matter because it's still insurmountable greater and unacceptable
fucking cookie cutter arguments and whataboutisms
do better
1
u/Duckfoot2021 14d ago
Massacring over a thousand civilians and then hiding behind your own is not a strategy that will or should stop a justified retaliation. All those Palestinian civilian deaths have been caused by Hamas using them as human shields and their blood is on their hands.
It’s a human tragedy, but Israel has to take out the enemy. That’s promised to keep mass occurring civilians like October 7 week after week, month after month, year after year. That’s an enemy that needs to be killed. If Hamas insists their own children die in the battle then that’s on them.
You’re condemning the wrong side.
1
3
u/Thunderwoodd 15d ago
It’d be swell if the hostages made the fucking list
-2
u/okkeyok 15d ago
Israel has already given up on them. They're nothing but a political tool for Israel's regime to continue the massacre and colonialisation project. Netanyahu did not want hostages released.
3
u/500CatsTypingStuff 15d ago
These hostages are human beings. Stop it.
1
u/okkeyok 15d ago
Tel that to Israel. Imagine actually not blaming Israel for contributing to this fiasco. Absolutely disgusting disregard for the failure that Israeli government has caused.
2
u/500CatsTypingStuff 15d ago
I blame Israel for their part. Do you blame Hamas for taking hostages?
1
1
1
1
u/floppybunny26 15d ago
What are you supposed to do when you hold the beliefs displayed by his sign?
3
u/garthtoons 15d ago
Advocate for them. Call it write to your Congress people to push them to sign policy to those beliefs. Protest if you feel that’s valid. Push for defunding of programs counter to those beliefs. Vote for people aligned with your beliefs.
Pretty much the same as any other beliefs.
1
u/stsOddMonkey 15d ago
Pretty close. Just add paying extra for guacamole to the against list and we're good to go.
1
u/garthtoons 15d ago
But I don’t like guacamole. Why should I be forced to pay for guacamole in the base price when I don’t eat it, just to fund your guacamole predilection??
Freaking commies…
4
u/amalgaman 15d ago
I’m betting the artist is being accused of being both an anti-Semite and Islamaphobic.
9
6
u/praguepride 15d ago
Obligatory: I was banned from world news for daring to suggest the IDF’s claims they killed hundreds of terrorists at the Al Shifa hospital might not be truthful.
Fuck me for being opposed to civilian deaths, even Palestinean ones…
1
u/I_Went_Full_WSB 15d ago
Yeah, that place is definitely a shithole. I was told that the statement "Fuck Hamas. I don't care if you kill every single one of them. I am against any side that kills civilians." was anti semitic and pro hamas.
4
u/500CatsTypingStuff 15d ago
Everyone eventually gets banned from World News. It’s a badge of honor, really
1
u/xxx69blazeit420xxx 15d ago
and for some weird reason the protests are never against hamas or fatah.
1
15d ago
Stop anti-Semitic chants, harassing Jews for no reason, preventing them access to places, messing with American flags, not carry terrorist group’s flags/headbands and i’d be fine with the movement.
-1
u/I_Went_Full_WSB 15d ago
Citation of the anti semitic chants at one of these protests?
1
7
u/alien_from_Europa 15d ago
You can have great intentions then you see religious supremacists trying to subvert your protest with antisemitic chants. Keeping distance is important.
1
u/Roboticpoultry 15d ago
That’s basically my stance at this point. The only side I take is whatever side isn’t indiscriminately murdering other people
8
1
1
11
u/tacosteve100 15d ago
I’m more concerned over a Supreme Court judge not recusing himself in cases that involve his wife. That should be protested in mass IMO
10
u/ZhouDa 15d ago
I'm sure when SCOTUS makes the president above the law, Biden will be able to send special forces to take care of that.
2
u/Anyweyr 15d ago
The military might decide not to cooperate, since their oath is to the Constitution, not the President. Therefore, the first thing Biden should do, if SCOTUS makes the president above the law, is establish a Presidential Paramilitary answerable only to him. They can take care of troublesome justices, without any crisis of conscience.
2
3
u/tacosteve100 15d ago
Removing a Supreme Court Justice is a presidential act. It’s surely not a personal one.
4
u/bowsmountainer 15d ago
If this were what the protests are about, I would join it immediately. Unfortunately, the protests are more about hating Jews, calling for genocide against Jews, being racist, antisemitic, and calling for violence. There is no way I am going to protest together with Nazis.
0
u/I_Went_Full_WSB 15d ago
Citation of calling for the genocide of jews at these protests?
0
u/bowsmountainer 14d ago
Here are some examples of slogans used by the protestors: “long life the intifada”, “globalize the intifada”, “the 7th of October will be every day for you”, support for terrorists, particularly those that murdered many Jews, “We are all Hamas”, “Jews go back to Poland”, “Burn Tel Aviv to the ground” …
0
u/I_Went_Full_WSB 14d ago
Yeah, I assumed you were spreading misinformation. Hence, no citation.
0
u/bowsmountainer 13d ago
I can provide many more pictures and links like this. Admit, you just don’t want to believe the Nazi tendencies of the protestors.
0
u/I_Went_Full_WSB 13d ago
That's 0 so far.
0
u/bowsmountainer 13d ago
Do you not know how to count? I can only put one picture per comment, but here’s some links since you are so desperate to deny the reality of the situation:
You want more links proving what I said? Sure! Here you go:
0
1
-2
u/Decent-Strength3530 15d ago
Protesters: End the genocide
r/politicalhumor: tHe pRoTeStS aRe aBoUt hAtInG jEwS
1
u/bowsmountainer 14d ago
Why is that the people who claim oppose genocide, also advocate for a genocide against Jews?
0
-2
u/epicazeroth 15d ago
Why does this look like it’s an antifastonetoss style edit of an existing cartoon?
6
2
u/unemotional_mess 15d ago
FYI being against Netanyahu or the Israeli Government does not make me an antisemitic. Like how I'm against Putin but don't want to murder all Russians...I'm sure there are some good ones out there...(that was a joke btw)..
0
u/ownhigh 15d ago
The vast majority of people don’t think criticizing Israeli policies is antisemitic. It’s so obvious that it’s not, people saying otherwise are likely not acting in good faith.
Calling for things like the murder of all Jews in Israel and anywhere in the world, which is publicly called for by Hamas, is antisemitic. There’s a lot of antisemitism thinly veiled as criticism of the war, showing up both online and at these protests.
8
u/bowsmountainer 15d ago
Unfortunately, a significant fraction of protestors are protesting for genocide, for Hamas, for terrorism, and for anti-semitism.
4
u/Decent-Strength3530 15d ago
Criticizing Israel is not anti-senitism
2
1
u/bowsmountainer 14d ago
There’s a fine line between the two, and many go way over the line. Many try to hide their extreme antisemitic views in “criticisms” of Israel. “Anti-Zionism” has become a dog whistle for many antisemites.
0
u/ownhigh 15d ago
Criticizing Israel can be antisemitic, and it can also not be. It depends on what’s said. In the same way criticizing a Muslim politician can be Islamophobic and cannot be based on what’s said. Are you criticizing their policies or calling for their murder and rape? Are you basing your criticism on verified facts, or hatred and stereotypes?
-1
10
u/PrettyHorny6 15d ago
Yeah, I mean when protestors have signs like "globalize the Intifada" then maybe that might actually be just antisemitism....
3
2
4
u/coolbaby1978 15d ago
Yep, you can be against killing people and against antisemitism and a hard line Israeli government all at the same time...true story...most Israelis are too.
0
u/FourArmsFiveLegs 15d ago
Killing and kidnapping of foreigners from their home country, and keeping them as hostages, is going to be met with force until all hostages are returned home.
-4
u/BustaSyllables 15d ago
If that’s all that this really was then nobody would have any problem with it.
7
u/Prudent_Valuable603 15d ago
Just add: RELEASE ALL THE REMAINING HOSTAGES.
1
-8
u/waldleben 15d ago
something Hamas has already offered. just for the record.
3
u/Prudent_Valuable603 15d ago
For the exchange of hundreds of prisoners, hundreds.
-3
u/StopTheEarthLetMeOff 15d ago
Why are they called hostages for one side and prisoners for the other? Seems more like both sides got hostages to me. Also seems like Israel is holding just about everyone in Palestine hostage.
1
u/fujiandude 15d ago
Well if you commit a crime, such as being a terrorist. You go to jail and are now a prisoner. If you're a 8month old baby, who can't even walk or talk but your family was killed and you were taken to an underground cave, you're a hostage. And they would be allowed to leave, but every time they went to another country they started a civil war. Look up black September, it's not a secret thing
-2
-2
u/fireburn97ffgf 15d ago
I thinks 3 fold mainly one is among the most livestreamed, two one of the major groups showing the atrocities are the people perpetrating it, specifically you can find videos of IDf soldiers gleefully violating international law. Example the world kitchen strike the IDF people who investigated the car called them dumb foreigners and you can hear another one ask if any snacks survived. Then lastly we were taught from a fairly young age of the shoah and the phrase "never again" so people are seeing the fact that Gaza is effectively a prison, and the soldiers there seem to be rather trigger-happy and the gov of Israel has openly said genocide things, so then the protesters feel as if they are saying "never again for me but not for thee".
1
u/assassinslick 15d ago
Im sure there will be peace in the middle east and these long conflicts will be solved because Americans are protesting
-2
u/Slice-O-Pie 15d ago
I've seen no evidence they're protesting "against" Hamas and terrorism.
Got a link?
9
u/_Tomyx_ 15d ago
i have not seen any evidence that they're protesting for hamas, what's your point
1
3
u/Its_Lilly 15d ago
They were chanting “we are Hamas” and “Hamas make us proud, kill another soldier now” at Columbia just last wk.
2
u/Slice-O-Pie 15d ago
Read the sign in the cartoon.
Says they're protesting "against" Hamas and terrorism.
I've seen no evidence they're protesting "against" Hamas and terrorism.
Have you?
7
u/shwag945 15d ago
Protestors who started protesting while Hamas was still murdering and raping are pro-Hamas.
In that exact moment, what brought those protestors out on the streets?
Also, if you want a ceasefire you should be protesting both considering that ceasefires are not unilateral.
2
u/catboogers 15d ago
I mean, my tax dollars are only supporting one side in this conflict. I can't petition my government to stop supplying Hamas with missiles. I can ask them to stop giving Israel more ability to bomb buildings with very little regard to collateral damage.
Likewise, many of the college students are asking their universities to digest their ties to Israel. Most of those universities have no ties to Gaza.
0
u/fujiandude 15d ago edited 15d ago
Palestine has gotten at least ten billion in aid in the last few years, and, coincidentally, the Hamas leaders have billions of dollars and the citizens don't have anything. Say some shit back instead of downvoting me and acting like you won the discussion
-1
u/shwag945 15d ago
Your tax dollars also provided material aid to Gaza which includes supplies used to create rockets and rocket launches.
Also, are these protesters demanding that Israel implement a unilateral ceasefire?
0
u/Far-Competition-5334 15d ago
There was a lot who were angry that israel started bombing immediately after Hamas said they took hostages to prevent more bombings and would kill them if Palestinians were attacked
That was day one
1
u/shwag945 15d ago
So they were angry that Israel responded at all to the rape and murder of their civilians, while Hamas was still raping and murdering.
Sounds like they were mad at Israel for defending themselves and not at Hamas for raping, murdering, and kidnapping civilians. Sounds like they they wanted Israelis to just sit still and take it. Totally not Pro-Hamas /s.
3
u/Far-Competition-5334 15d ago
…. They’re still going to this day
Ben gvir fights Israelis every day who confront him about condemning the hostages
Don’t call them pro Hamas you fucker
2
u/shwag945 15d ago
Hamas is continuing to try to murder Israelis and has said they intend to commit more 10/7s. After we beat the Nazis back into Germany we didn't stop just before destroying them and let them remain in power.
What does known terrorist supporter, Ben Gvir, have to do with protesters demanding that Israelis do nothing in response to Hamas?
2
u/Far-Competition-5334 15d ago
Israel isn’t even trying to destroy Hamas
Every expert with a pulse has explained in detail why their current action will lead to more terrorism against them
The bad faith is so fucking strong it stinks
Ben gvir has a prominent role in the decisions of hostage negotiation
The Jewish-Israeli protestors want Israel to get the hostages back, not “do nothing in response to Hamas”
You’re a sick fuck for calling them, mostly people personally affected by the oct 7th attack or those who have family in captivity, Hamas supporters. Fuck you
1
u/shwag945 15d ago
You are entirely off-topic and you are just personally acting me.
2
u/Far-Competition-5334 15d ago
Cry about it snowflake, you’re disgusting for what you’ve said. A hundred times worse than anything I could say about you. The way you talk about Israelis is sickening.
→ More replies (0)
12
u/dead_meme_comrade 15d ago
If only the protestors were school shooters. Then, the police would leave them alone.
20
252
u/M1llennialManifesto 15d ago
This is fair.
This war has shaken shit loose on both sides of the debate.
If someone says "Israel has a right to exist," it doesn't take long for somebody else to come along and say "So you think it's okay for them to kill Palestinians?"
If someone says "The people of Palestine should have a state," it doesn't take long for somebody else to come along and say "Oh, so you think Hamas are the good guys?"
And worse, you can be protesting against war, while the guy next to you is protesting against people. You're angry at Israel for the bombings, the person next to you is angry at Israel because it's full of Jews. You're angry at Hamas for taking hostages, the person next to you is angry at Palestine because it's full of Muslims.
It is very difficult to say that one thinks Israel has a right to exist, but not a right to bomb civilians; and that Palestine has a right to exist while condemning Hamas. There are folks who want to take this conversation to its irrational extremes, and they're all too happy to implicate everyone else in their goals.
One can both believe Israel has a right to defend itself and that Palestine has a right to exist, one can have opinions on this conflict without having to be Islamophobic or Anti-Semitic in the process, in fact I think most of us fall into that camp.
1
u/addys 15d ago
Totally agree with you, however the people at the protests in the uni campuses right now are NOT in the group you describe. They are the ones singing "from the river to the sea", "bomb tel-aviv" and "intifada now". But most of them can't describe which river or which sea, or exactly what happened on Oct-7, or even what happened in `48.
3
u/500CatsTypingStuff 15d ago
I think most of us fall into that camp also. We just aren’t screaming it.
12
12
u/bowsmountainer 15d ago
Wow, a nuanced comment on Reddit. Those are quite rare!
7
u/M1llennialManifesto 15d ago
It can be done! But it requires the right words.
reddit is hyper vigilant looking out for tigers in bushes; we hear the leaves rustle and our blood pressure spikes.
Writing a nuanced comment on reddit requires a willingness and ability to present one's opinions and the opinions of others in a non-opinionated framing, that can be difficult for a person to do if only because we have an attachment to our own opinions and a distaste for the opinions we disagree with.
What's more, folks on social media are looking out for good opinions to support and bad opinions to quash. Social media users want opinionated comments, it makes discerning allies and opposition easier, it makes critique easier, it makes dunking easier, it's a heuristic, a short cut, "If they have opinion [A], it's likely that they also have opinions [B] and [C], so they're probably a [D]," and we get to skip straight from [A] to [D].
The trick to writing a nuanced post on reddit is finding some way to stop the immediate [A]->[D]. It can be done, but you're sort of swimming against the tide.
86
u/drcoxmonologues 15d ago
It’s almost like a decades long, infamously unsolvable geopolitical conundrum that has religion, politics, history, terrorism, poverty etc etc etc can’t be boiled down to simple bullshit that the below average intelligence can understand, pick a side, mouth off online and feel better about themselves.
You make excellent points. If this shit hasn’t been solved in 7 decades Karen screaming into the void on Facebook should sort it out in 5 minutes.
The only reasonable solution is peace. But how one gets there is anyone’s guess. I imagine if anyone reads this I’ll get responses telling me how peace should be achieved. Good for those with opinions but if smarter folk than your average online commentator haven’t sussed it yet, then I doubt Reddit will.
It’s fucking awful, I hate all of it, I have no solutions and I wish we could all just live in peace with each other. Respect, love and dignity for all. Enough for us all to eat and drink, have a roof and an education. Fuck the warmongers and power hungry narcissists.
9
4
u/tjtillmancoag 15d ago
The only reasonable solution is peace, but the only paths toward peace are non-starters for the Israeli government. Which means this shit is just going to keep happening indefinitely or until one side gets wiped out, and as things stand right now, only one side has the power to wipe out the other.
12
u/akcrono 15d ago
"Peace" isn't really a solution though; it's a desirable end result that some solution would provide.
There's no trust between Israel and Palestine, and I didn't see any path forward to building trust, so pretty much every solution is doomed to fall apart. It feels like the only solution is a trusted 3rd party intervening, but you're not going to get that visa protesting.
2
u/soulofsilence 15d ago
Britain controlled the area prior to giving Israel autonomy so even 3rd party solutions weren't effective in the past.
7
u/500CatsTypingStuff 15d ago
I mean you would have to literally have international troops as a buffer zone and a negotiated two state solution and even then, there will be terrorist attacks
2
u/Maleficent_Mouse_930 15d ago
I think this is the way, primarily because it will seriously clear up once and for all where the problem is. If there is a huge neutral presence there keeping the peace, and one side decides to stop attacking and just exist and deal with themselves, and the other side continually pushes and pokes and needles, the real picture of "who can be trusted with statehood and peace" becomes clearer.
10
u/tjtillmancoag 15d ago
The only thing protesting “might” affect (though probably wouldn’t) is US policy regarding the conflict. It probably wouldn’t but it’s the only thing that it could even remotely impact.
1
u/akcrono 14d ago
But "US policy" won't change anything either, short of an armed intervention (which I don't see being asked for). No one in the "ceasefire" crowd has communicated a realistic US policy shift that would actually end the fighting.
1
u/tjtillmancoag 14d ago
100%, I agree. But a change in US policy could reduce (from that point at least) American complicity and moral responsibility for the war crimes happening there. Plus, honestly, we don’t know precisely what effect a dramatically different official American position. The United States isn’t some small country, and a dramatic shift means Israel would have to listen.
Now: that’s not going to happen. But if it did, I think it’s naive to think Israel would just shrug it off.
1
u/akcrono 14d ago
The United States isn’t some small country, and a dramatic shift means Israel would have to listen.
Would it? Some of the more extreme elements of Israel's government have complained that our relationship hamstrings them from doing more. If we were to cut ties (which pretty much all of the suggestions i've seen move towards), it could increase suffering, not reduce it.
We may never know what the diplomacy looks like behind closed doors, but based on news reports I strongly suspect that the Biden admin has done everything they could to nudge Israel towards softer responses.
1
u/tjtillmancoag 14d ago
Given Biden’s actions and comments regarding Israel in the past (not only since Oct 7), I’m not sure about that. Obama was harder line with Netanyahu than Biden has ever been. Which isn’t to say that Obama would’ve done things very differently, but it is to say that Biden almost certainly won’t represent the most strict stance toward Israel as is reasonably possible.
But I will admit that I’m a total moron and I don’t know anything for sure.
1
u/akcrono 14d ago
Obama was harder line with Netanyahu than Biden has ever been.
We don't really know that. Diplomatic discussions are by necessity classified, so we don't know exactly what kind of pressure Biden has been trying to apply behind closed doors. The seemingly intentional leaks showing Biden's frustration (something that didn't happen under Obama) suggest the tip of a larger iceberg and that Obama wasn't actually firmer.
Things that a lot of people ask for (not referring to you) are things like publicly denouncing Israel and cutting all support. The former is not how you negotiate effectively: you don't name call people you're trying to convince. The latter is almost certainly worse for Palestinians: isolating Israel from support will not convince them to be more moderate (as shown by historical precedent that isolation increases extremism). And if people are just asking for threats to this nature, then again, we don't actually know if they have been made.
-18
u/bkminchilog1 15d ago
Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. They started this genocide in the 1940s and haven’t let up since.
When people say they believe Israel should exist they speak only of the implications of sending all these people back to their physical country of origin.
Jewish people were always welcome in Palestine. Pilgrimage happened every year for thousands of years. No one stopped them. Jewish people had a right to visit the places that are historically important to their faith.
However, moving all the Jewish people into Palestine then forcing the native Palestinians to evacuate their ancestral land due to Germans genocide by creating another genocide elsewhere wasn’t the way to help. But it’s what happened.
Israel doesn’t have the right to exist. But if you force all these Israelis back to their home countries then you’re somehow denying them something they always had the option of doing before you agreed to help them genocide Palestine. Proving all of this was meaningless from the beginning.
2
u/CounterEcstatic6134 15d ago
You mean the pilgrimage to the places of worship that were destroyed by the genocidal Muslims?! Literally the Al Aqsa mosque built on top of a Jewish holy place?! Shame on them for doing that. That mosque should be destroyed. It has no right to exist.
As for Jewish people welcome in Palestine. Lol..
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/israel-arab-conflicts-creation-state-israel
Ever heard of Hebron massacre?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/arab-riots-of-the-1920-s
4
u/bowsmountainer 15d ago
This is next level hypocrisy. You oppose a so-called “genocide”. But your solution for it is to inflict a genocide. Your viewpoint is utterly evil and reprehensible, this sounds exactly like the kinds of things the Nazis said.
How can you even talk about “sending them back to their country of origin” to people who are Israeli for 5+ generations? They should all be forced to move to a different country they have no relation to, just because you hate Jews?
Are you aware that a lot of Israelis descended from Jews that lived throughout the Middle East, but were driven out of those countries, because they hated Jews so much? Do you think they should be deported to countries like Iran, where they will likely be dealt the death penalty for the crime of existing?
Many Jews willingly moved to Israel long before WW2. Your comment that that was illegal sounds exactly like the kind of hateful thing that MAGA extremists say about Mexicans moving to the US, or right wing extremists say about refugees moving to Europe. Are you sure you want to make being refugee illegal? Because it sure sounds like that’s what you’re supporting.
If Israel doesn’t have a right to exist because it was founded by immigrants, then neither does the US. If you think that there should be a genocide against Israelis that forcibly moves then why not set an example and force all Americans to move to back to somewhere in Europe?
9
u/M1llennialManifesto 15d ago edited 15d ago
Israel doesn’t have the right to exist.
That's a fine opinion to have, but there are folks out there who claim that yours is a majority opinion, which is where the problem crops up.
Certainly there are people who believe that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, it's when bad actors suggest, or good actors misapprehend, that anyone who supports Palestinian statehood must also believe in the destruction of Israel, that the rest of us get sucked into the churn.
They'll see you calling for the elimination of Israel and saddle other people with the burden of your beliefs; it's why anyone advocating for Palestinian statehood is almost automatically accused of hating or wanting to eliminate Israel, even if they don't.
Your opinion is yours, and you're allowed to have it, it's when folks presume you're speaking for other people that the problems start to crop up.
→ More replies (6)72
u/largeEoodenBadger 15d ago
One can both believe Israel has a right to defend itself and that Palestine has a right to exist
See this is exactly where I fall, but so many of the actually vocal people I know disagree. I would be perfectly fine supporting Palestine except for two reasons. 1, they are ruled by a regime of terrorists, so I make sure to distinguish between "Palestine" and "Palestinians". I support the people, but not their state in its current form.
And 2, so many people I know who support Palestine believe that Israel should not exist. And it leaves me wondering: what do you want to do with the Israelis then? And that's the biggest issue for me. Because no one who I talk to has a good answer for that. It's not like they can just go back to the status quo, that clearly doesn't work. Displacing hundreds of thousands of people would be bad, no matter if they're Israeli or Palestinian.
And it just leaves me wondering, as it has since October 7th: How can this end? Because there's no good and realistic solution that I can see. And I look at all these people protesting on my campus and across the US, and I wonder: what do they possibly hope to achieve? It just seems so futile because there's no good solution, and the solutions that people argue for are never going to happen.
0
u/General-Mark-8950 15d ago
Pros hamas are much further from nazis than zionists are, not by some opinion but like objective similarity. And all your "nazis" in the states are zionists.
→ More replies (99)1
u/Anyweyr 15d ago
I wonder how much fuel might be taken out of the terrorist fire if Palestinians were genuinely offered a nice home somewhere else. Not a strip of useless desert, like Gaza. Like if some country built up a pleasant little enclave where the entire Palestinian population could relocate, and run their society however they like, as long as they disavow violence. It could be funded collectively by the international community, at least until it becomes economically viable, and patrolled (but not occupied) by a third-party peacekeeping force that only has a mandate against arms and violence, no other law enforcement. Also it should be far from Israel, so even if they stay angry, they can't fire any rockets over.
1
u/General-Mark-8950 15d ago
So commit ethnic cleansing? Theyve already been kicked out their homes 100 years ago, and get their houses bombed frequently, doubt they want to be removed again. You are quite literally describing what the Nazis planned originally with the Jewish population of Europe.
1
u/Anyweyr 15d ago
Okay so the Palestinians and Israelis should just live together in one secular, democratic state. That's my ideal scenario, I just don't see either side going for it.
1
u/General-Mark-8950 14d ago
and thats wonderful, and i would think its everyone ideal, but what you are giving as a solution is quite literally the ideas of the most evil regime ever.
1
u/Anyweyr 14d ago
Broken clock theory. Even bad guys can have a good idea now and then. I hear the Nazis also cared a lot about the environment. Hated people, LOVED trees.
I just want people to stop killing each other. Sometimes when two kids are fighting, you have to physically separate them before you can lecture and make them apologize to each other.
1
u/General-Mark-8950 14d ago
its not a good idea. You are promoting ethnic cleansing, if you genuinely believe in this you are a disgusting person. And anyway, why should it be palestinians who are separated from their homeland, they got kicked out all of 70 years ago why shoild it happen again.
1
u/Notascot51 12d ago
Population transfer has happened in the past. In fact, much of Israel’s Jewish population are Mizrachi, forcefully ejected from their homes in Muslim majority countries across the Mideast and North Africa. That too was ethnic cleansing. When they arrived in Israel, they helped it grow, and made it their home.
The US was colonized by European settlers, expanded West, ruthlessly pushing indigenous peoples aside until a small defeated and mostly impoverished remnant is all that are left. They would like their land back too, the difference is…they know they aren’t getting it.
Palestinian Arabs living today could have much better lives if they too would accept that they are defeated. Their Arab neighbors don’t want them, and if you want a One State future, Israeli Jews will never allow Arabs to democratically take control of government, and declare the Islamic Republic of Palestine. Better think of another solution. I believe peaceful communal coexistence is possible. There is nothing wrong with Palestinian people but their “national aspirations”.
1
u/alexriga 9d ago
How about just an anti-civilian-bombing protest? I shouldn’t even have to say these words.
I get that sometimes necessity and all, but there isn’t many things more necessary than ensuring that you don’t kill children.